Trans Woman Attacked.

bitter_lemon

MissMoppet wrote: »

Even if someone wasn't an angel the attack this person suffered should NOT BE INFLICTED ON ANYONE.

yeah tell that to her victims :rolleyes:

Links234

bitter_lemon wrote: »

links i am treating her as a whole person here.

no, what you're doing is slandering a woman who was beaten to the point of seizure, trying to make her out to be in the wrong, and very strongly implying that because "she's no angel" that she did something to deserve the assault. you're not treating her like a person at all

Azure_sky

bitter_lemon wrote: »

she was already having hassle about using the toilets without eating there. maybe this was the start that aggravated it.

I've never heard of paying customers beating someone to a bloody pulp for using the toilets without buying something. Get real.

bitter_lemon wrote: »

and if i was strapped into a chair for fear of being electrocuted i would say anything not out of intuition but of survival. silly analogy!

Silly answer. You would say what your intuition believes is most likely due to survival. You would not give a random answer.

bitter_lemon wrote: »

she has plenty of charges herself! shes no angel.

Which has absolutely no bearing on the case in question. If you're ever in court please don't choose to represent yourself!

Links234 wrote: »

and you know, when this new first broke and they didn't know that the victim was transgender, people on other websites were roaring about this being a black-on-white hate crime, but as soon as details emerged that she was transgender, people changed their tune and started up with this kind of disgusting victim blaming. people's prejudices became pretty apparent :mad:

stay classy, humanity :rolleyes:

Welcome to the club Links.

wonderfulname

Given that its Baltimore the idea that the attack would be racially motivated is a pretty understandable one initially...

The police report does not provide a motive but quotes one of the suspects saying that the fight was "over using a bathroom."

Now I know its coming to conclusions, but is it not a rational conclusion to come to that in their eyes she was in the wrong bathroom, as the victim says, it fits the police report quite well, what's the other options? She jumped the queue? Took too long? Used up all the loo roll? Come on now, I bet they'll even admit to it so they can claim they were overcome with trans panic or something.

Annasopra

bitter_lemon wrote: »

yeah tell that to her victims :rolleyes:

are you saying the attack is justified?

wonderfulname

bitter_lemon wrote: »

yeah tell that to her victims :rolleyes:

SOURCE?

MissMoppet

bitter_lemon wrote: »

yeah tell that to her victims :rolleyes:

So her getting beaten is just because of her apparent past actions in your mind then???

Azure_sky

wonderfulname wrote: »

Come on now, I bet they'll even admit to it so they can claim they were overcome with trans panic or something.

Spot on.

bitter_lemon

Links234 wrote: »

no, what you're doing is slandering a woman who was beaten to the point of seizure, trying to make her out to be in the wrong, and very strongly implying that because "she's no angel" that she did something to deserve the assault. you're not treating her like a person at all

anyone - lesbian,bi, straight, gay, black, purple, orange etc that has a history of convictions is dirt to me.
i make no apologies for it. i don't discriminate. i treat them all the same - as scumbags.

rainbow kirby

MissMoppet wrote: »

Even if someone wasn't an angel the attack this person suffered should NOT BE INFLICTED ON ANYONE.

This needs to be repeated.

bitter_lemon

MissMoppet wrote: »

So her getting beaten is just because of her apparent past actions in your mind then???

no but i certainly won't lose any sleep over it.

MissMoppet

bitter_lemon wrote: »

anyone - lesbian,bi, straight, gay, black, purple, orange etc that has a history of convictions is dirt to me.
i make no apologies for it. i don't discriminate. i treat them all the same - as scumbags.

Thats very narrow minded.

Azure_sky

bitter_lemon wrote: »

anyone - lesbian,bi, straight, gay, black, purple, orange etc that has a history of convictions is dirt to me.
i make no apologies for it. i don't discriminate. i treat them all the same - as scumbags.

You'd make a fine and objective judge. (Sarcasm.)

rainbow kirby

Stay on topic please, and keep to the facts.

Links234

bitter_lemon wrote: »

anyone - lesbian,bi, straight, gay, black, purple, orange etc that has a history of convictions is dirt to me.
i make no apologies for it. i don't discriminate. i treat them all the same - as scumbags.

supposedly she's got convictions for prostitution, disorderly conduct and property destruction...

and nobody disadvantaged has had to turn to such methods for their livelihood, now have they? :rolleyes: and of course, it's not like transgender people are nearly four times more likely to live in extreme poverty, twice as likely to be unemployed, twice as likely to be homeless, and almost 40 times more likely to attempt suicide than the general population. is it? :rolleyes: and it's not like the justice system in the US can't victimize people either, oh no... anyone who gets a conviction, well they not only deserve it, they're deserving of being beaten into a seizure later in life for no good reason at all. :rolleyes:

and of course, this isn't just an excuse for you to air your prejudices? oh no sir

your glaringly apparent contempt for people who have a criminal record is equally repugnant. anyone who might have to turn to prostitution in order to live is just dirt and scum? :rolleyes:

wonderfulname

Especially when there's nothing on her supposed crimes bar 6 words in one article that's been reposted all over the net, we don't have a clue of the circumstance. We don't know if it was a habit or one really crazy night.

Come on, the smoking gun? Really? We're debating information from there?

Azure_sky

The prostitution charges are null and void. Transsexuals are often disowned by their parents, and are highly likely to be discriminated in job interviews. America, until very recently, had no universal health care and a bare bones welfare system-they cut you off if you don't manage to find work in a couple of months. For many transsexuals living in is such a right wing, economic "libertarian" and conservative country prostitution is not a choice, it is a necessity to survive.

bitter_lemon

MissMoppet wrote: »

Thats very narrow minded.

oh i did not realise you worked for the justice department like myself. maybe we could have coffee sometime and actually discuss the reality and behaviour of criminals in our work setting. because i deal with them all day and have a fairly good insight into whats going on thank you.

anyway i agree with rainbow kirby. this is certainly going off topic.

Azure_sky

bitter_lemon wrote: »

oh i did not realise you worked for the justice department like myself.

I hope you're joking.

bitter_lemon wrote: »

anyway i agree with rainbow kirby. this is certainly going off topic.

But not until you got your piece off topic speech in of course.

Anyway, I'm logging off. Like I said before; every time I come onto this sub forum, which is supposed to offer support, I almost invariably leave frustrated, disillusioned and depressed.

hare05

Can we please just close this thread until EVERYONE gets a breather?

Someone is beaten to a pulp. Regardless of our opinion on the situation, or opinion of the person, it is blatantly disrespectful to them for this thread to result in a flame war.

wonderfulname

Azure_sky wrote: »

The prostitution charges are null and void. Transsexuals are often disowned by their parents, and are highly likely to be discriminated in job interviews. America, until very recently, had no universal health care and a bare bones welfare system-they cut you off if you don't manage to find work in a couple of months. For many transsexuals living in is such a right wing, economic "libertarian" and conservative country prostitution is not a choice, it is a necessity to survive.

We just don't know what happened with her, we don't know what she did, how grievous her crimes were, what brought her to commit them, how often she did so, what she gained, what she lost... we don't know a thing, we don't even know its her, the article implies so, and it most certainly is the most likely scenario, but there could just be a 22 year old guy called Chris with his fingers crossed hoping nobody realises that's his record loosely splashed all over the internet and open to any level of interpretation.

MissMoppet

I didn't think that putting this up would cause so much drama.. I honestly just wanted to discuss it in a calm open minded fashion. Very dissappointed in this day in age some people would put the blame on to the victim.

Trans men and women in todays society are victimissed and it needs to be addressed and not only by the trans society but by everyone.

hare05

MissMoppet wrote: »

I didn't think that putting this up would cause so much drama.. I honestly just wanted to discuss it in a calm open minded fashion. Very dissappointed in this day in age some people would put the blame on to the victim.

Trans men and women in todays society are victimissed and it needs to be addressed and not only by the trans society but by everyone.

Discussed, yes. But as always, comments are taken out of context, and personal insults start to fly. I haven't seen this much flaming since the last "should we drop the T" thread. Members were banned then. I don't want to see that happen to people here who are normally level headed.

Either lock the thread or admin need to enforce the banhammer to get things back under control.

Rev Hellfire

Its not important who started it or if the victim was indeed blameless, the simple fact is no-one should be subjected to a sustained assault such as the one shown in the video.

foggy_lad

It looked like a normal fight that can be seen in any normal city centre most weekends and not a word is printed about those attacks. In such attacks there is usually an element of mistaken identity or some previous interaction between the parties(maybe the girl's boyfriends had been seeing the victim in her capacity as a prostitute and they were unhappy about it?).

Maybe people did not get involved because they had seen some previous engagement between the women? or more likely they just wanted a quiet life and would not get involved on seeing anyone get attacked mugged etc

We dont know the full story so cant go around stating that she was attacked purely for being transgendered. Usually when groups like Equality Baltimore get involved all reason becomes seriously clouded by the groups own agenda so their input and assessment of the incident can at best be called seriously biased.

Links234

it's also interesting to note that it was a very short time before this attack, a trans rights bill was killed in the same state: http://www.washingtonblade.com/2011/04/14/maryland-senate-kills-trans-rights-bill/

wonderfulname

The guy who was filming claims it started over her using the women's restroom as she "is a man".
The victim claims they said "thats a dude, thats a dude"
The police report cites an issue over the restroom, saying the suspect claimed it was "over using a bathroom"

For me, at least, this all adds up. I have noticed some of the activisty sites claiming the girls were charged specifically with a hate crime, however that one lie isn't going to make me ignore the other, more neutral accounts of what happened.

Maybe she wouldn't have been attacked if shed gone and used the men's bathroom as they wanted her to, but can you honestly say that toilet facilities should discriminate by genitalia? Because thats what this story is really about, a recent bill that would say otherwise was struck down over there, this is all politics. I really pity that woman, this is going to turn into trans rights vs. grown men watching 14yo girls pee and shes going to be right at the center of it, painted on one side as a victim, the other as a pervert.

EDIT: ack links :P yeah thats the bill up there.

rainbow kirby

Locking this until the red mist clears a bit.

Violence and victim-blaming are NEVER OK.

rainbow kirby

Re-opening the thread on request. As stated already - discuss the facts of the case only. Do not descend into victim blaming or justifications for violence or the thread will be locked again.

bitter_lemon

i won't contribute anymore so discuss....

i was not victim blaming. i was looking at it outside the box and treating it the same as any other person that gets beaten up on a night out.

anybody with prior convictions i would hold in the same disdain.

end of........

Healium

Links234 wrote: »

wow, victim blaming on boards.ie, who'd have thought it? :rolleyes:

a woman got brutally assaulted, and you're making excuses for the attacks who beat her into having a seizure? christ almigty.

Never came back to this thread before it got locked, but just want to clear some things up.

First, I specifically said in my post that I'm not justifying the assault by any means, so I'm not making excuses for the attack.

Second, from my experiences with friends who have epilepsy, I don't believe that seizure for a second. But, that's just my opinion, and we'll never know if it was real or not. Just seems like a defence mechanism to me.

I don't know what videos people watched, but I just saw the report one. Here's the full video http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhiHb913Lf4TpU4q5m

I don't know why people on here are saying that people didn't intervene. There's a guy intervening from the start of the video, and he gets the girls to leave. They come back in, and a lady intervenes.

The audio is crap quality, but I think I heard the attackers repeatedly saying "Don't F with me!". I still think there's more to this story than is being told, and I still think it's quite possible that the victim got into a verbal disagreement with the attackers, and it just escalated. I'm not victim blaming, call it arguing for the sake of arguing, if you want. I'm just being skeptical and unbiased, and providing an alternative situation.

I just don't think that two teen girls would start pounding on a trans woman in a populated McDonalds for no reason.

You can't label everything a hate crime. What was that quote from Desperate Housewives last week? "...and Andrew is gay. He'll be charged with a hate crime. That's another 10 years!"

Again, not justifying the assault by any means, but people are being a bit too dramatic here and making huge statements with no proof.

I just don't think that this was an attack BECAUSE they were a trans woman, it was just a trans woman who happened to get attacked

Annasopra

Healium wrote: »

I don't believe that seizure for a second. But, that's just my opinion, and we'll never know if it was real or not

I'm just being skeptical and unbiased, and providing an alternative situation.

I just don't think that this was an attack BECAUSE they were a trans woman, it was just a trans woman who happened to get attacked

That's not really being unbiased at all. Unbiased would be clear that none of really know what happened and whether it was a hate crime at all. Unbiased would be saying - it looks like a seizure but it might be or it might not be. I don't think you claim to be unbiased if you're saying it's definitely not a hate crime.

Healium

Johnnymcg wrote: »

That's not really being unbiased at all. Unbiased would be clear that none of really know what happened and whether it was a hate crime at all. Unbiased would be saying - it looks like a seizure but it might be or it might not be. I don't think you claim to be unbiased if you're saying it's definitely not a hate crime.

That's a bit ridiculous, to be honest. I didn't take sides with anyone, and it had no effect on my judgement. I analyzed the video as best I could, and using my own experience of seizures, came to the conclusion that it was probably fake.

Just because I came to my own conclusion, does not make me unbiased. I was unbiased to both parties at the beginning, but eventually I have to come to a judgement

Again, same thing for the hate crime part. Impartial to both parties, then analyzed the video as best I could, pieced together the evidence, and came to a conclusion.

Would you call a judge unbiased for coming to a judgement in court?

Also, I never said it was definitely not a hate crime. I said that I think, in my opinion, that it's not a hate crime, but that there's two sides to every story, and there's more to this one.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say in here. Can't say anything on these forums anymore unless you always take the side of the LGBT person, or you're attacked, it seems

Annasopra

Healium wrote: »

Anyway, that's the last I'll say in here. Can't say anything on these forums anymore unless you always take the side of the LGBT person, or you're attacked, it seems

I wasn't attacking you - merely questioning your assertions. If you felt you were being attacked then report a post and another mod could take a look at it.

Personally I think that we can't really determine if it was a hate crime or was not a hate crime. Obviously she did report in another story that certain language was used.

Links234

I had requested this thread be re-opened so we can post updates.

Hundreds Rally in MD for Transgender Victim

McDonalds beating suspects may face hate crime charges

Transgender Hate Crime Draws Attention To MD Legislation

Some good might actually come of this, because it might get them to look again at the trans protections bill that was killed recently. From here:

An antidiscrimination bill that would protect transgender Marylanders in housing, employment and credit, but not public accommodations such as the McDonald’s restaurant, passed the house for the first time but died in the senate this year. Many advocates attributed the failure to state senate president Mike Miller, a Prince George's County Democrat who called the transgender rights bill “anti-family” in the days leading up to the final vote.

In an e-mail to colleagues in the state legislature on Monday, delegate Joseline Pena-Melnyk, the lead sponsor of the Gender Identity Anti-discrimination Act this year, said the attack and video brought “shame” to Maryland and showed why the bill is needed.

“Incidents such as this illustrate why the transgender community in Maryland and elsewhere needs to be protected through antidiscrimination legislation,” wrote Pena-Melnyk. “Supporters of House Bill 235 in this past legislative session recognized this need and stood up for the rights of this community. While HB235 did not include protection from discrimination in public accommodations due to the intense pressure opponents placed on the bill’s supporters, the bill would have raised public awareness of the issue and paved the way for complete protection for Maryland’s transgender population. Contrary to statements made by those who should be leading the fight for civil rights in Maryland, this was not an anti-family bill, but a basic civil rights bill. The failure of this bill goes against Maryland’s long history of being in the forefront of civil rights movements,” she wrote.

The delegate asked all senators who voted to sideline the measure on the final day of session earlier this month to serve as primary sponsors on a “stronger version” of the bill next year.

Links234

Oh and this was posted on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/gwetg/thinking_about_transphobic_and_transmisogyinistic/

It's an interesting read

Eroticplants

I watched that video and am now in tears.
I have lost faith in the human race, those girls had nothing but hate in them.
The staff are disgusting, they were laughing, LAUGHING.
ARGH, I have spammed EVERYONE I know with this message:

Hey, did you hear of the trans women who got attacked in McD's?
Well she was attacked and had chunks of her hair ripped out and was having a seizure on the floor and all the staff did was record it and laugh, not try and help. It's all over the internet.
Go to McDonalds.ie and send an angry email telling them how disgusting it was and how the staff should be fired it was truly the most disgusting thing I have ever witnessed.

I sincerely hope that everyone here has also emailed their disgust.

Remember, LOVE.
I love you all and just please be safe and kind to one another.

AndrewJD

Mcdonalds.ie is owned by Mcdonalds Restaurants of Ireland, held privately in Ireland. This attack was in the US. The people that read it will have absolutely no requirement nor ability to forward it to anyone of significance.

I'd also imagine Mcdonalds PR have long since swept in and done whatever they were ever going to do in terms of dismissal. Assuming the police investigation is still ongoing, any unlawful activity will be dealt with in accordance with state and federal law, and Mcdonalds will quote you that.

Links234

Transgender attack victim meets with woman who tried to help

Links234

Attacker Charged With Hate Crime!

wonderfulname

How in gods name do they propose to explain a plea of self defence?

deirdre_dub

wonderfulname wrote: »

How in gods name do they propose to explain a plea of self defence?

This should explain everything :mad:

diddlybit

My god. I didn't watch this video before because I thought it would be too upsetting. I was right. What a disgusting bunch of human beings and I'm astonished at the amount of people that just stood around and watched like it was some form of spectator sport.

I think I just lost a portion of my faith in humanity.

thebullkf

deirdre_dub wrote: »

This should explain everything :mad:

you do realise thats from 2008 ...

thebullkf

This.

Healium wrote: »

Never came back to this thread before it got locked, but just want to clear some things up.

First, I specifically said in my post that I'm not justifying the assault by any means, so I'm not making excuses for the attack.

Second, from my experiences with friends who have epilepsy, I don't believe that seizure for a second. But, that's just my opinion, and we'll never know if it was real or not. Just seems like a defence mechanism to me.

I don't know what videos people watched, but I just saw the report one. Here's the full video http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhiHb913Lf4TpU4q5m

I don't know why people on here are saying that people didn't intervene. There's a guy intervening from the start of the video, and he gets the girls to leave. They come back in, and a lady intervenes.

The audio is crap quality, but I think I heard the attackers repeatedly saying "Don't F with me!". I still think there's more to this story than is being told, and I still think it's quite possible that the victim got into a verbal disagreement with the attackers, and it just escalated. I'm not victim blaming, call it arguing for the sake of arguing, if you want. I'm just being skeptical and unbiased, and providing an alternative situation.

I just don't think that two teen girls would start pounding on a trans woman in a populated McDonalds for no reason.

You can't label everything a hate crime. What was that quote from Desperate Housewives last week? "...and Andrew is gay. He'll be charged with a hate crime. That's another 10 years!"

Again, not justifying the assault by any means, but people are being a bit too dramatic here and making huge statements with no proof.

I just don't think that this was an attack BECAUSE they were a trans woman, it was just a trans woman who happened to get attacked

NOT THIS....

Eroticplants wrote: »

I watched that video and am now in tears.
I have lost faith in the human race, those girls had nothing but hate in them.
The staff are disgusting, they were laughing, LAUGHING.
ARGH, I have spammed EVERYONE I know with this message:

Hey, did you hear of the trans women who got attacked in McD's?
Well she was attacked and had chunks of her hair ripped out and was having a seizure on the floor and all the staff did was record it and laugh, not try and help. It's all over the internet.
Go to McDonalds.ie and send an angry email telling them how disgusting it was and how the staff should be fired it was truly the most disgusting thing I have ever witnessed.

I sincerely hope that everyone here has also emailed their disgust.

Remember, LOVE.
I love you all and just please be safe and kind to one another.

but rather...

Healium wrote: »

That's a bit ridiculous, to be honest. I didn't take sides with anyone, and it had no effect on my judgement. I analyzed the video as best I could, and using my own experience of seizures, came to the conclusion that it was probably fake.

Just because I came to my own conclusion, does not make me unbiased. I was unbiased to both parties at the beginning, but eventually I have to come to a judgement

Again, same thing for the hate crime part. Impartial to both parties, then analyzed the video as best I could, pieced together the evidence, and came to a conclusion.

Would you call a judge unbiased for coming to a judgement in court?

Also, I never said it was definitely not a hate crime. I said that I think, in my opinion, that it's not a hate crime, but that there's two sides to every story, and there's more to this one.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say in here. Can't say anything on these forums anymore unless you always take the side of the LGBT person, or you're attacked, it seems

I especially agree with the last paragraph above. Its a shame really.

deirdre_dub

thebullkf wrote: »

you do realise thats from 2008 ...

I know!!! Less than 3 years ago!!! FFS!!! :mad:

thebullkf

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I know!!! Less than 3 years ago!!! FFS!!! :mad:

i assumed when i read it , that it was more recent, the churches views are well documented, just ignore them

diddlybit

Er, no. The church has been responible for the marginalisation and the oppression of LGBT people for years now. Horrific hate crimes are committed such as the attack seen in this thread that originate in ignorance and fear, and others are self-righteously bigotted and violent in the name of religion. It's a chicken and egg scenario, when people call LGBT people "unnatural" they may not be conciously evoking church teachings, but that's were they orignate.

I could ignore them, but I do not wish to. This incident occurred in Australia when a woman was pulled from a wheelchair in the name of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6yF7EqGvPc

(A gay, who's says that?)

wonderfulname

deirdre_dub wrote: »

This should explain everything :mad:

That oul ejit? He really has a surprising amount to say about LGBT people. Incredibly hate filled man, so much so that he seems to be compromising the churches position, which is saying something.
But seriously, in legal terms, given the video evidence, how can they claim a prolonged assault was self defence? Even if something had happened prior to the attack its just too dirty and goes on too long and she never hits back.

diddlybit

wonderfulname wrote: »

But seriously, in legal terms, given the video evidence, how can they claim a prolonged assault was self defence? Even if something had happened prior to the attack its just too dirty and goes on too long and she never hits back.

They mightn't use that argument. I would think that they would use a transpanic defense. It usually fails spectacularly thankfully.

http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20070918141834/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2005_April_12/ai_n13606961