Best EBB M4 on the market?

Southern Dandy

Ive been looking into getting an M4 now for a bit and im torn between getting a WE M4 GBBR cos i likes the kick you get with gbb's, but if i knew of a EBB that has a nice kick id consider going for it, now i know an EBB's kick aint guna be as hard as a gbbr but if anyone has any suggestion on a good rifle im all ears or even a recoil kit you could throw into a aeg.

Cheers

Firekitten

I'd go for one of the APS ebb rifles. The recoil isnt the same, but the gas rifles aren't anywhere near efficient yet, and the mags will eat you out of house and home. Advantage of EBBs... batteries, and aeg mags.
Worked on an APS one recently, and was suprised as hell... lovely construction, decent recoil, and lovely internals. Barrel is a bit meh, but it still shoots grand.

Southern Dandy

Firekitten wrote: »

I'd go for one of the APS ebb rifles. The recoil isnt the same, but the gas rifles aren't anywhere near efficient yet, and the mags will eat you out of house and home. Advantage of EBBs... batteries, and aeg mags.
Worked on an APS one recently, and was suprised as hell... lovely construction, decent recoil, and lovely internals. Barrel is a bit meh, but it still shoots grand.

Tell me bout it, have a scar gbb with the co2 mags bloody thing costs a fortune to run and a couple of green gas ones that are leaking like a mofo, is the APS all metal? how about the price?

CpcRc

Firekitten wrote: »

I'd go for one of the APS ebb rifles. The recoil isnt the same, but the gas rifles aren't anywhere near efficient yet, and the mags will eat you out of house and home. Advantage of EBBs... batteries, and aeg mags.
Worked on an APS one recently, and was suprised as hell... lovely construction, decent recoil, and lovely internals. Barrel is a bit meh, but it still shoots grand.

I have one and I LOVE it!! Great AEG and a good EBB. Really good sound and feel running on a 9.6v. Unfortunately there's one downside to the APS M4s, well the carbine version anyway. Their out of the factory quality are hit or miss They all have the same parts but some don't get proper QC out of the factory.

I know three APS M4 carbine owners (me included) and out of those three, two have had big problems but one runs just fine.

If the one you buy is good you've got a great AEG in your hands (this is my case ). If you're not so lucky, you could be in for a little heartbreak if you get me? (this was the two other lads case )

One had it's entire gearbox break itself and the owner had to replace everything inside. It's no longer an APS internally as everything is changed and the owner says they won't buy another APS in the future.
Another had terrible feeding and firing accuracy issues. The owner eventually found out that the issue was that the inner barrel was scratched internally from the factory which was effecting the BBs.

It's a great AEG, but some of the ones out of the factory are worse than others. Fortunately there are loads of ones that are working perfectly fine in Ireland, more than ones that don't function so well anyway.

Southern Dandy wrote: »

Tell me bout it, have a scar gbb with the co2 mags bloody thing costs a fortune to run and a couple of green gas ones that are leaking like a mofo, is the APS all metal? how about the price?

Now I can tell you what I paid anyway. These are prices from MIA where I purchased the AEG.
The carbine version is roughly €194.99 and then you have to buy a battery as one isn't included. I got a mini type 1500mah 9.6v nunchuck battery for €24.99 with my AEG when I was purchasing it. Get the 9.6v if you're buying the APS, because the rate of fire and sound of the EBB is class I think they are 11.1v lipo ready too, but someone else would know better.
If you want a RIS version it's about €30-€35 more to buy than the carbine. But it's worth it if you want a RIS as the carbine is not a standard length fit for aftermarket rail systems. Not to mention that the APS RIS can store a battery in it unlike numerous other RIS systems can. Also the carbine plastic handguard looks cheap and is a bit loose on the AEG.
Also a 1600mah 9.6v is €29.99, €5 more than the 1500mah one.

I also replaced the stock hopup rubber and nub with a guarder one and the hopup unit with a G&P metal unit. These are good mods for the AEG.

Finally to answer one of your questions, yes it is full metal.

Just to remeber, you should consider that some APS M4s might need attention after purchase, but this is just a possibility to be kept in mind.

Hope this info helps

Southern Dandy

Cheers for that cpcrc, sure it took me months to work the kinks out of my we scar so i might take a punt with the APS, MIA seem to be out of stock of nearly all the models, looking for the full length RIS that looks like a sopmod, What are the internals like? Can u upgrade the parts with reinforced ones available from irish websites?

Firekitten

I popped a madbull barrel and blue rubber in my friend's aps, and swapped the stock plastic bushings to metal bearing ones, and the thing's a dream, total of possibly €50-60 in upgrades.

The gun is pretty much all metal, stock tube seems to be plastic, but you dont really notice. Body is metal, all barrel parts, the pistol grip is a lovely polymer plastic, and the stock feels good.


Curious to find out what actually went wrong with the aps that ate its entire gearbox? I mean... I've NEVER seen a gun damage its gearbox that didnt have a good proportion of parts savable if not absolutely fine. Last m4 I saw that snapped its gearbox shell was fine with a new shell on. What went wrong?

Southern Dandy

Firekitten wrote: »

I popped a madbull barrel and blue rubber in my friend's aps, and swapped the stock plastic bushings to metal bearing ones, and the thing's a dream, total of possibly €50-60 in upgrades.

Jebus nothing wrong with that then, how about mags? will CA mags fit do you wreckon?

Firekitten

Yup, they do. Would stear clear of magpull E or P or any other alphabet mags, as the ones I had didnt seem to fit, but otherwise, mag brand, TM, CA, ICS, ares and g&p stanags fitted and fed like a dream

LawlessBoy

Yeh i use CA mids in mine unfortunatly... but they do fit really well.

Firekitten

Why is that unfortunately? *confused*

LawlessBoy

dont like CA mids

Firekitten

I've never had a problem with them myself, found them one of the better midcaps I've used, certainly more reliable feeding than g&p ones...

guess it depends, but if they work in this, and you use this, sorted huh?

CpcRc

Firekitten wrote: »

I popped a madbull barrel and blue rubber in my friend's aps, and swapped the stock plastic bushings to metal bearing ones, and the thing's a dream, total of possibly €50-60 in upgrades.

The gun is pretty much all metal, stock tube seems to be plastic, but you dont really notice. Body is metal, all barrel parts, the pistol grip is a lovely polymer plastic, and the stock feels good.


Curious to find out what actually went wrong with the aps that ate its entire gearbox? I mean... I've NEVER seen a gun damage its gearbox that didnt have a good proportion of parts savable if not absolutely fine. Last m4 I saw that snapped its gearbox shell was fine with a new shell on. What went wrong?

Gears got destroyed and so did the piston, think the cylinder and all had to be taken out. But that's just bad luck to be honest. So I'm guessing that the only original parts are the gearbox shell and trigger assembly. I'm not sure about the full extent of repairs that had to be done but very little was salvageable. He bought his in from abroad before they were available in Ireland.

Firekitten wrote: »

Yup, they do. Would stear clear of magpull E or P or any other alphabet mags, as the ones I had didnt seem to fit, but otherwise, mag brand, TM, CA, ICS, ares and g&p stanags fitted and fed like a dream

Really? problems with Pmags? Because I bought a pair of A&K Pmags off a friend there a couple of weeks ago and they feed well and are the only mags that are not too small in the mag well and don't move about. Not even the stock APS ones that come with it fit as well as the A&K did. They were the closest thing to a perfect fit I had found.

I agree that MAG brand midcaps fit, but like most mags they need a bit of electrical insulation tape to fit and feed better. Also a bit of that door insulation tape can help as I had problems with mine at first.

Firekitten

hmm, sounds more like utter bad luck than a qc issue... that can happen with g&g, g&p, ca, TM even... catastropic failure can be random with any brand, hardly an APS issue.

As for mags... Tried genuine magpull pmags in one, and my SA80 E mag, neither fed properly.

CpcRc

Southern Dandy wrote: »

Cheers for that cpcrc, sure it took me months to work the kinks out of my we scar so i might take a punt with the APS, MIA seem to be out of stock of nearly all the models, looking for the full length RIS that looks like a sopmod, What are the internals like? Can u upgrade the parts with reinforced ones available from irish websites?

I'd look to abroad to find the full length RIS model(the best in my opinion but not available when I was purchasing). But that means that you have to remember to get it downgraded. I'd buy within the EU -cough-Poland-uncough- to avoid Taxes and customs. But make sure you can get a M90 spring for it from wherever you're purchasing, if not most shops can remove a spring before shipping and you can just buy a M90 spring (about €15) in Ireland and fit it yourself.

CpcRc

Firekitten wrote: »

hmm, sounds more like utter bad luck than a qc issue... that can happen with g&g, g&p, ca, TM even... catastropic failure can be random with any brand, hardly an APS issue.

As for mags... Tried genuine magpull pmags in one, and my SA80 E mag, neither fed properly.

Yeah, pity it's turned him aff the brand though. But luckily enough there are a lot more fully functioning ones about. And it still is early days for APS to be honest. I think that this is their second batch of AEGs?

As for mags, I've tried MAG brand mids. And as for Highcaps I've tried; APS(original),JG and A&K and all fed well. Couldn't try the genuine magpul as I don't have enough money to afford genuine magpul anything, haha

Firekitten

I just tried what I have around, and to clarify, that was all mids, I dont own any hicaps *preens*

Yeah, its a pretty new brand, but from what I've seen, they've made some nice changes to the design. The blowback mechanism is effective, and safe, and the fixed pins in the gearbox for the anti reversal and the trigger make dissassembly and working on it a dream.

Took me all of 10 minutes to swap parts and reassemble... nowhere near as involved as a 'regular' gearbox with the many hand anti reversal, tappet and trigger dance ><

CpcRc

Firekitten wrote: »

I just tried what I have around, and to clarify, that was all mids, I dont own any hicaps *preens*

Yeah, its a pretty new brand, but from what I've seen, they've made some nice changes to the design. The blowback mechanism is effective, and safe, and the fixed pins in the gearbox for the anti reversal and the trigger make dissassembly and working on it a dream.

Took me all of 10 minutes to swap parts and reassemble... nowhere near as involved as a 'regular' gearbox with the many hand anti reversal, tappet and trigger dance ><

Same here, tried what I had. I do prefer mids, but some days I'm just too lazy.

I've only gone as far as the hopup (like I said, G&P unit and guarder rubber and nub) and haven't touched the gearbox yet as it's working fine as is. But that's great news about easy disassembly and reassembly. No more fiddling with getting things in line while holding down the spring before closing Not the most fun thing at 12am.

Is it necessary to change the bushings? The stock ones are holding up well, but I do have 7mm steel bearing ones on hand.

Southern Dandy

Its easy knowing why they are sold out going by what all ya'll are saying, cough Poland uncough you say?? Any website suggestions?? Ironically enough i am coughing as i have the man flu....

Firekitten

CpcRc wrote: »

Is it necessary to change the bushings? The stock ones are holding up well, but I do have 7mm steel bearing ones on hand.

Not really, but I always like to have metal ones in for reliability, nylon tends to be grand, but im a bit of a perfectionist :P

If you have em, fit em, nothing to lose really?

richieffff

Southern Dandy wrote: »

Its easy knowing why they are sold out going by what all ya'll are saying, cough Poland uncough you say?? Any website suggestions?? Ironically enough i am coughing as i have the man flu....

Cough :rolleyes: Scroll down a little.

LawlessBoy

@Cpcrc

Did you say these AEGs are Li-Po ready? Can anyone clarify that?

Firekitten

Pretty much any gun, is lipo ready.

You can use a 7.4v c25 lipo in most things.... These guns deffinately handle that fine.

By 'lipo ready' do you really mean, 'can i chuck an 11.1v lipo in, and unleash spraysoft death and not really bother aiming'


if so,

yes, but for about 10 minutes before your gearbox follows your box mag contents out of the barrel.

CpcRc

Firekitten wrote: »

Not really, but I always like to have metal ones in for reliability, nylon tends to be grand, but im a bit of a perfectionist :P

If you have em, fit em, nothing to lose really?

I'll think about it, but too busy at the moment to be working on an AEG. Got college exams coming up real soon

richieffff wrote: »

Cough :rolleyes: Scroll down a little.

Funny how contagious this cough can be eh?

Firekitten wrote: »

Pretty much any gun, is lipo ready.

You can use a 7.4v c25 lipo in most things.... These guns deffinately handle that fine.

By 'lipo ready' do you really mean, 'can i chuck an 11.1v lipo in, and unleash spraysoft death and not really bother aiming'


if so,

yes, but for about 10 minutes before your gearbox follows your box mag contents out of the barrel.

According to some people the AEG is rated upto 12v NiMH (not that I would try that, I use a 9.6v and that's plenty enough. I'll be fitting a mosfet anyway). So I think it might be 11.1v LiPo ready, but I have no experience with this so that's why I've asked if someone else can clarify like Firekitten has. But APS do not have your regular old wires as standard, they have shiny silver ones
Unfortunately I do not know the full benefits of this wiring as I'm still learning about the many things inside an AEG. But they are supposed to be better than regular 'ol wires.

Leftyflip

Those "shiny silver wires" are crap, no better than the stock stuff, silicone low resistance is the way to go, the high quality stuff used in RC. It's only lipo ready, if YOU'RE lipo ready, no gun is ever lipo proof.

CpcRc

Leftyflip wrote: »

Those "shiny silver wires" are crap, no better than the stock stuff, silicone low resistance is the way to go, the high quality stuff used in RC. It's only lipo ready, if YOU'RE lipo ready, no gun is ever lipo proof.

I was tricked by the salesman banter, haha. I've not got any experience with wiring yet.

richieffff

CpcRc wrote: »

Funny how contagious this cough can be eh?

I think its a case of man flu :rolleyes:

Firekitten

Just a note, Anyone using EBB rifles, do NOT Use 11.1v lipos. A, its going to **** things up, even the most reliable ebb system ive seen yet, the APS one, was killed by that.

The stress on the gearbox sheered the blowback lug that pulls the bolt back.

7.4 lipos, and 9.6 nimh batteries... grand. Higher? Do not use... Its just going to cause problems.

CpcRc

Firekitten wrote: »

Just a note, Anyone using EBB rifles, do NOT Use 11.1v lipos. A, its going to **** things up, even the most reliable ebb system ive seen yet, the APS one, was killed by that.

The stress on the gearbox sheered the blowback lug that pulls the bolt back.

7.4 lipos, and 9.6 nimh batteries... grand. Higher? Do not use... Its just going to cause problems.

You said you worked on an APS didn't you? Is it true that they don't have shims from the factory?

Mines been working fine so I haven't opened up the gearbox yet, although it is already out of warranty.

Firekitten

Um, its deffinately shimmed from factory, and quite nicely. I redid it when I added metal bearings to the one ive had in.

In all, the gearbox is nice. Not overly lubricated and greased, Awesome air seal in the cylinder... Better than a lot Ive worked on. (Finger over air nozzle, try to push piston in, literally wont move)

Nozzle is a great design, different to a lot ive seen for m4s, fixed anti reversal and trigger pins lovely to work on. Polycarb parts well made and tough, though it seems too high a voltage battery can stress and fracture the blowback 'arm'.

To explain that, the system operates from a recoil operated blowback.

The bolt is connected to a plate, which runs in a track on the gearbox shell top. This has a U shaped arm, that catches the piston. When the motor pulls the piston back, it pulls back the arm and bolt, but releases it when the piston slams forwards. Unlike some permanently attached methods, its very nice. The one ive worked on had an 11.1v lipo in, and it had stressed the arm to breaking point. Why I mentioned it...

Got to remember with EBB systems, you're including new parts in your setup to consider when adding higher voltage, not all aegs can handle it, or should. Tbh, its a lovely system, well made, and tough. I've seen few well put together AEGs like it.

Since working on the m4, ive worked on an APS aks74u, and an ak74n, both are similarly well put together, and the AKs have a harder recoil yet. Lovely dark wood, and excelent steel bodies. (Distinctly VFC. Inokatsu body design copy which is nice)

That silvery wiring is a bit naff btw. Its just clear insulation o ver the wiring, and the insulation tears in seconds. Its horridly fragile. If you intend to take your gun apart, (I stress, its very little difference to a regular aeg bar the drop in blowback arm that rests in a channel atop the shell) be careful with the wiring, or replace it. I had one shorting because the wiring had torn its insulation.

Otherwise, great. If you dont intend to go in, thats not an issue.

Leftyflip

APS EBBs are ok. Issues I've found with them are; not all standard parts (a/r latch), the trigger block return spring can come out of place and thus cause the gun to constantly fire, wiring is ****e, rear of the gearbox has feck all material in it. G&G Raider kthxbaii.

darkslider

Bought the APS ASR102 (RIS Model) as my first AEG. Great starter gun I must say. I have since taken it apart and as others have said, the gearbox is pretty solid - good quality casing and decent metal used in the gears so it will take a serious amount of punishment. One thing to look out for, (and APS have admitted this as a fault) the 2 plastic blocks that form the trigger switch have a habit of overheating and the metal parts melt into the plastic which can prevent the trigger switch from engaging correctly. This would manifest itself in the gun not firing on either semi or auto as the metal contacts on the trigger blocks are not making contact. If you're planning on buying one 2nd hand I would make sure that these parts have been replaced. MIA can replace them with Bakolite parts which are far more heat resistant. This could be due to the heat generated by high current batteries, it might do with a slightly higher guage wiring, but since the trigger blocks have been replaced there have been no gearbox issues what so ever.

As for feeding - PMAG's do seem to have issues. They don't sit deep enough in the Magwell. I think this may be more to do with the quality and depth of the hopup unit, than the fit of the mag. You can buy the APS factory mags for about $8 a piece from various airsoft websites, I'm not sure if MIA stock APS parts. I've replaced the hopup unit with a DBOYs full metal unit and I've also replaced the inner barrel with an ASG ultimate 6.02 which gives a nice improvement in distance and velocity but should keep you below the 328 fps limit. I've not had the feeding issues since this replacement but I've not used the Pmag as I've got 3 high cap APS mags.

All in all, I like this gun - it's all metal except the stock so it's got a quality feel to it and a nice balanced weight. Internally the gearbox is very high quality and the EBB is smooth. The hopup unit will need replacement eventually but it's a 30 euro upgrade tops.

If you want to buy an EBB and upgrade as you go then this is the gun for you.