Taxi Driver Behaviour

ripcord

Spook_ie wrote: »

from the uk highway code

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070338

Why are you showing the english rules?? The description of the roundabouts given in the website BostonB mentioned matched our rules perfectly. Don't muddle things...

ripcord

Spook,

There has been some bashing of taxi drivers on here, and its probably the main reason you are keeping this going. Even while most people agreed the taxi driver was wrong, you continue to support him. Of course that is your choice. However, anyone reading this thread can see how desperate your arguments are becoming.(Post numbers in brackets)

• You inferred I was agressive and 'road raging' (54) - you were wrong.
• You demanded a picture of the roundabout (52) - it was given
• Even with that, you claimed the exit was at 1'clock (69) - I posted another picture with a line to show it was 12.
• Then you claimed you can switch lanes if there is traffic in the LHL (75) - you cannot
• Then you claimed the RHL would be the curteous thing to do (75) - I explained how this was incorrect - twice
• Someone posted a helpful website that matched our system (87) - you tried to dismiss it because it was english
• Then you tried to say someone doing the test would get marks for sitting behind cars in the LHL (93) - Testers know the rules of the road. If you were in the RHL, you would get a mark.

Given that you have failed in all of the above, you have now resorted to claiming the driver is in the wrong ONLY if he commits an indictable offence. This is, frankly, stupid. You have pulled this out of nowhere. You probably feel comfortable in this, considering you have already searched the SIs. This seems to be your last ditch effort to exhonorate the taxi driver who nearly crashed into me by driving incorrectly.

Incidently, you have not come across as a very good driver. You claimed to take the "natural" approach regardless of the ROTR(69). You have a hard time judging angles and clock times(82). And most worrying, you regard the ROTR as a "generalised direction document"(92). Ironically, if you actually ARE a taxi driver, your comments have done more harm than good - adding to the stereotype that taxi drivers are poor motorists.

However, I can't take this any further. I don't have the legal skills, and I don't have time to look into it (not this weekend). I believe if the taxi driver caused an accident, he could be done for dangerous driving, given the manouver he made. Maybe others could comment on that. Hopefully someone more knowledgable in legal will keep the indictment issue going

That's it from me.
Ripcord.

Victor

Can people tone things down a little? Discuss the topic at hand and none of the jibes, please.

Spook_ie

ripcord wrote: »

Spook,

There has been some bashing of taxi drivers on here, and its probably the main reason you are keeping this going. Even while most people agreed the taxi driver was wrong, you continue to support him. Of course that is your choice. However, anyone reading this thread can see how desperate your arguments are becoming.(Post numbers in brackets)

• You inferred I was agressive and 'road raging' (54) - you were wrong.
• You demanded a picture of the roundabout (52) - it was given
• Even with that, you claimed the exit was at 1'clock (69) - I posted another picture with a line to show it was 12.
• Then you claimed you can switch lanes if there is traffic in the LHL (75) - you cannot
• Then you claimed the RHL would be the curteous thing to do (75) - I explained how this was incorrect - twice
• Someone posted a helpful website that matched our system (87) - you tried to dismiss it because it was english
• Then you tried to say someone doing the test would get marks for sitting behind cars in the LHL (93) - Testers know the rules of the road. If you were in the RHL, you would get a mark.

Given that you have failed in all of the above, you have now resorted to claiming the driver is in the wrong ONLY if he commits an indictable offence. This is, frankly, stupid. You have pulled this out of nowhere. You probably feel comfortable in this, considering you have already searched the SIs. This seems to be your last ditch effort to exhonorate the taxi driver who nearly crashed into me by driving incorrectly.

Incidently, you have not come across as a very good driver. You claimed to take the "natural" approach regardless of the ROTR(69). You have a hard time judging angles and clock times(82). And most worrying, you regard the ROTR as a "generalised direction document"(92). Ironically, if you actually ARE a taxi driver, your comments have done more harm than good - adding to the stereotype that taxi drivers are poor motorists.

However, I can't take this any further. I don't have the legal skills, and I don't have time to look into it (not this weekend). I believe if the taxi driver caused an accident, he could be done for dangerous driving, given the manouver he made. Maybe others could comment on that. Hopefully someone more knowledgable in legal will keep the indictment issue going

That's it from me.
Ripcord.

No the main reason I'm going on is because of your claim that you were 100% in the right, seldom in life is anything 100%, especialy when driving, but

Post 54 Was basicly a thankyou to the previous poster for putting yet another request to you to produce the location, I would apologise for not snipping the post down if I thought an apology was merited, your assumption that the post was anything other than an agreement that you should post the RAB location doesn't merit such an action.

Post 52 Yes and as such I thank you for eventualy realising that you cannot cast disparaging remarks on other drivers without at least having the bare minimum of eveidence being posted to support your assertions.

Post 69 I would have thought the remark " for all the pedants out there " would be self explanatory, however, for further clarification refer to the map, if you were planning the route from the map the RAB exit would be at 1.00, therefore if you were preparing for a journey you would probably approach that RAB as you would expect it to be on the map

Post 75 Yes you can, there is AFAIK no SI that prohibits you from approaching in the RHL, you cite the RoR and I state that without the requisite SI to back them up then they are guidelines NOT rules

Post 75 (again) I refer my learned friend to the previous answer

Post 87 Yes and I also dismissed the web sites advice by citing the relevent section of the UKs Highway Code, which I believe does have a standing in law as charges are (or were when I was in the UK ) often laid with the terminology " In contravention of Highway Code section xx "

Testers may well know the rules of the road, but in the absence of any tester coming on here (so far ) to verify which would be the greater fail, we'll have to leave that one to lie fallow for the moment, however I would fully expect that if you were to arrive at that RAB on a test with the LHL chocablock with traffic and you sat there for 10 mins the examiner would probably curtail the test early with a fail

Now your final argument, if someone is driving and not commiting a traffic offence then they cannot be deemed to be driving incorrectly, it's a simple rule of law you can't be guilty of an offence that you didn't commit. Now as I said before, and I believe this is the entire crux of the argument, if there is an SI pertaining to the approach of a RAB I've already said I will apologise but if there isn't one then the RoR HAS only the status of a guideline rather than a rule.

Some examples would be

Yellow Box Junctions ( infringements are enforcable by the issuing of a penalty ticket )

Red Traffic Lights ( infringements are enforcable by the issuing of a penalty ticket )

Road Markings such as a Stop line ( infringements are enforcable by the issuing of a penalty ticket )

All of these are listed in the RoR and they also have SIs that allow them to be enforced, do you see the difference yet?

dirtynosebeps

at the end of the day your not going to win or get a taxi driver to admit one of their own was wrong. next time it happens report to the guards and push for a proscectition, you might have to go to court. spookie can bring up all he wants but at the end of it all it was careless/ dangerous driving/ dangerous overtaking. these days taxi drivers are taking to many risks because they think they own the roads. as for the different replies i did say this earlier on in the thread

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

the good point about your thread is it shows the amount of people who dont know the rules of the road.

. and to my disappointment i've been proven right, worst of all by those that are supposed to be professional drivers. this thread would seem to open a big can of worms where the P.S.V. test is concerned. a learner driver would have more knowledge of the R.O.R. than most of these guys.

Spook_ie

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

at the end of the day your not going to win or get a taxi driver to admit one of their own was wrong. next time it happens report to the guards and push for a proscectition, you might have to go to court. spookie can bring up all he wants but at the end of it all it was careless/ dangerous driving/ dangerous overtaking. these days taxi drivers are taking to many risks because they think they own the roads. as for the different replies i did say this earlier on in the thread . and to my disappointment i've been proven right, worst of all by those that are supposed to be professional drivers. this thread would seem to open a big can of worms where the P.S.V. test is concerned. a learner driver would have more knowledge of the R.O.R. than most of these guys.

So another one who fails to grasp the point of when a rule is not a rule but an advisory, succintness is lost on you. I'm not saying either driver was right or wrong, I AM SAYING that the OPs opinion that he was 100% right and the taxi driver was 100% wrong is flawed because of the lack of an enforcable " rule ". If the RAB in question had correct/some lane markings/signage then yes one or the other would have erred in their judgement. As it was, because of the lack of lane markings/signage the situation is at best ambiguous leading to a clash of decisions.

In the event of a collision at the exit, I dare say the taxi driver may well have been in the wrong because changing lanes for the exit requires you to ensure that it is safe to do so but there would also be an onus on the OP to allow for people changing lanes, not having been a witness to the incident, it wouldn't be fair to try and apportion blame either way.

As to

at the end of the day your not going to win or get a taxi driver to admit one of their own was wrong.

You sir are in the wrong that I would protect one of my own, indeed the more taxidrivers put off the road for lack of driving skills the better for me, I would have followed the same tack if it was any other driver, " Rules are enforcible, guidelines are not "

Spook_ie

Noting the general way in which people seem to think that the RoR are gospel, I have found this reference to an actual LAW that pertains to RaBs, Don't know how upto date the web site is but I'll quote it for you anyway.

The provisions of the Road Traffic Acts and the Road Traffic (General) Bye- Laws 1964 apply to traffic on roundabouts in exactly the same way as to all roads. In summary these require motorists to drive in a manner which takes account of the prevailing conditions, at a safe speed and having regard to lane discipline. The specific rule relating to roundabouts contained in Bye-Law 21 of the Road Traffic (General) Bye-Laws, 1964 requires that "a driver shall enter a roundabout by turning to the left".
The following should also be noted carefully:
You should:

• Treat the roundabout as a normal junction which means you yield right of way to traffic approaching on the roundabout.
• IF LEAVING BY THE FIRST EXIT approach and enter the roundabout in the left-hand lane signalling a left turn and proceed to leave the roundabout at that exit.
• IF LEAVING BY THE SECOND EXIT approach and enter the roundabout in the left-hand lane but do not signal until you have passed the first exit, then signal a left turn and leave at the next exit.
• IF LEAVING BY ANY SUBSEQUENT EXIT approach and enter the roundabout in the right hand lane signalling a right turn. Keep in the right hand lane (i.e. the lane next to the centre). As you pass the exit before the one you intend to leave by, signal a left turn and, when your way is clear, move to the other lane and leave at the desired exit.

Remember that signals are merely indications of intent. They do not confer right of way. When in doubt, play safe - YIELD.

http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm

Spook_ie

Yet another factor, turned up by research.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road eng.pdf

Scroll to page 8

Introduction
The rules of the road are for all road users – drivers, pedestrians, motorcyclists,horse riders and cyclists. You must have a satisfactory knowledge of these rules to get a driving licence, but learning about road safety doesn’t stop once you pass a driving test. It takes a lifetime. You need to constantly update your skills and knowledge and be aware of changes to road traffic laws. This is why you should understand and obey these rules whether you are learning to drive or have been driving for many years.

This book uses a ‘how to’ approach and covers many of the manoeuvres
identified as factors in a road crash. It uses three methods to set down clearly and concisely how the law applies to all road users.
It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.

It uses terms such as should and should not to tell you how best to act in
a situation where no legal rule is in place. It illustrates and describes traffic lights, road markings and signs provided to regulate traffic.

By knowing the rules of the road, practising good driving skills and generally
taking care as a road user, you will help to play a vital role in preventing a crash. You will also be making road safety policies more effective.

A number of skills are expected of road users, especially drivers:
the ability to act responsibly,
the ability to foresee and react to hazards,
good concentration, and
a good level of driving expertise.
8
Údarás Um Shábháilteacht Ar Bhóithre
Road Safety Authority

Then scroll to pages 107-111 and read them, how many of the bits of advice have the Must/Must Not highlight?

So from the RSA themselves the recommendations for use of approach roads at RaBs are just that, recommendations NOT law

tayto lover

I actually rang the Garda Traffic Corps in Kells to find out about roundabouts.
You can stay in the RHL if taking the 3rd or subsequent exit.
They said that the RSA are only recommending that you can stay in the LHR for the 3rd exit if its at 12 o'clock. That is not a law.

So both the taxi driver and the OP were correct in their driving but not in their subsequent behaviour.

Spook_ie

Additionaly found this gem......:)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67387678&postcount=103

Perhaps he was a Mayo taxi driver!!!

foggy_lad

cuppa wrote: »

Thanks for that, because I probably would have drove the same as the Taxi, going on the old rule, when did they change this, It was back in 87 i did my test . And i don't really watch TV especially adverts.

Sometimes the main road is not at 12 o'clock or straight on ,what do you do then, do you use right or left lane, just wondering.

• IF LEAVING BY ANY SUBSEQUENT EXIT approach and enter the roundabout in the right hand lane signalling a right turn. Keep in the right hand lane (i.e. the lane next to the centre). As you pass the exit before the one you intend to leave by, signal a left turn and, when your way is clear, move to the other lane and leave at the desired exit.

Afaik when you enter a roundabout from the right hand lane you can switch to the outside lane at any time when it is safe to do so and after signalling and checking your way is clear.

It is very clear the taxi driver the op describes did not check if there was anyone in the outside lane of the roundabout before he decided to exit by veering across it.

Spook_ie

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik when you enter a roundabout from the right hand lane you can switch to the outside lane at any time when it is safe to do so and after signalling and checking your way is clear.

It is very clear the taxi driver the op describes did not check if there was anyone in the outside lane of the roundabout before he decided to exit by veering across it.

Wouldn't disagree with that, only disagreement is with the OP's statement that he was 100% in the right using the LHL and the taxi driver was 100% wrong in using the RHL on the approach to the RaB

DWCommuter

Spook_ie wrote: »

Wouldn't disagree with that, only disagreement is with the OP's statement that he was 100% in the right using the LHL and the taxi driver was 100% wrong in using the RHL on the approach to the RaB

You are some spin doctor!

foggy_lad

Spook_ie wrote: »

Wouldn't disagree with that, only disagreement is with the OP's statement that he was 100% in the right using the LHL and the taxi driver was 100% wrong in using the RHL on the approach to the RaB

The taxi was 110% in the wrong for exiting the roundabout regardless of what you believe or your opinions on his driving, and he further showed himself up as a thug and possible scumbag by blocking the traffic including the op who he proceeded to intimidate and abuse.

Spook_ie

foggy_lad wrote: »

The taxi was 110% in the wrong for exiting the roundabout regardless of what you believe or your opinions on his driving, and he further showed himself up as a thug and possible scumbag by blocking the traffic including the op who he proceeded to intimidate and abuse.

Never disagreed with that either, fail to see the reason for your post

As stated several times, and I'll state it again, the behaviour of the taxi driver after leaving the RaB is not in dispute, I am disputing the right of anyone to say they were 100% in the right when there is no legal backing to chastise a driver (taxi or not) for approaching a RaB in the RHL

Spook_ie

DWCommuter wrote: »

You are some spin doctor!

There's no spin on it, it's merely a statement of fact, do you have some facts to back up your statement that I'm a spin doctor?

-Chris-

I think that's enough tbh.