Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread

paddi · 14-09-2011 4:12am

Thanks so much for your comments. really helpful and much appreciated.

For the long runs given that you've just gone 16, 19, 22 over the last three weeks I'd back off on this weeks on and do maybe 16 or 17. I'd follow it up with the half marathon preceded by 5 easy miles and I'd run the race at marathon pace effort. It gives you a long run, it gets you a long stint at your race pace in a race and it reduces the impact on the rest of your training. Of course if you want a HM pb then go for it but I think that it will have an impact on your marathon. The week after go back to 16 and the 4th week you could go 19 miles with the last 5 or 6 at marathon pace.

The HM and it's pb is not important to me. My sole focus is the marathon. So, great input about it's impact, it helps me decide not do it and keep focusing on DCM training.
With your input plus considering my situation, how about doing LSRs of 17, 19(6 easy+13 @pmp? is the pmp distance too much?), 16, 20(with last 6 @pmp?).

In general as I've probably mentioned elsewhere I wouldn't recommend going over 3 hours for a long run so if needs be adjust your plan to meet that criterion. If you feel that you can handle more then do extra during the rest of the week.

With my pace, to cover the LSR, it will need to be over 3 hours. The 22 miles past weekend was done in 3:26. I'm a bit unsettled here as to what to do? This probably applies to others with similar pace capability.

As for target time if the HM in 1:51 was an all out effort then that wouldn't bode well for 3:50.

It was not quite all out and was done at early phase of this training. Also, since it was hot and humid, so I hope it could be more favourable under DCM condition. Anyway, i take it that 3:50 target for a 1:51 HM is not likely to be achievable, but hopefully I can get below 4 and get as close as 3:50.
i guess it's crucial that i decide what should be my target, and set the pacing plan accordingly. May i ask for suggestion/recomendations on this?

On the other hand a 4:01 effort with a 90s positive split suggests that you took it relatively handy, have been doing some other kind of endurance training or have amazing natural endurance. Can you compare how your training is going now compared to then?

Compared to april race, total and wkly mileage is about similar (600 miles/avg 40-45/wk). LSRs for april were 4x16miles, 3x19, 1x20, 2x21, 1x22 with similar pace. One difference is that I feel noticiably easier doing LSRs this time. I did several more Threshold and VO2 max sessions in April with similar intensity, and again this time, i feel not as taxing.

Clearlier · 14-09-2011 8:12am

paddi wrote: »

Thanks so much for your comments. really helpful and much appreciated.

You're welcome.

The HM and it's pb is not important to me. My sole focus is the marathon. So, great input about it's impact, it helps me decide not do it and keep focusing on DCM training.
With your input plus considering my situation, how about doing LSRs of 17, 19(6 easy+13 @pmp? is the pmp distance too much?), 16, 20(with last 6 @pmp?).

With my pace, to cover the LSR, it will need to be over 3 hours. The 22 miles past weekend was done in 3:26. I'm a bit unsettled here as to what to do? This probably applies to others with similar pace capability.

The plan seems reasonable with the caveat that I wouldn't go longer than 3 hours. If for example you were running LSR's @ 10mm then I wouldn't suggest ever going further than 18 miles. 3 hours is a long time on your feet. The longer you're on your feet the greater your chance of injury and the greater the impact on the following weeks training. Also I don't believe that you get much greater benefit from running for 3:30 compared to 3 hours. The one thing to mention here is that can give some a mental boost but you've already run a marathon, you know you can get the distance. Now it's a question of optimising your training.

paddi wrote: »

As for target time if the HM in 1:51 was an all out effort then that wouldn't bode well for 3:50.

It was not quite all out and was done at early phase of this training. Also, since it was hot and humid, so I hope it could be more favourable under DCM condition. Anyway, i take it that 3:50 target for a 1:51 HM is not likely to be achievable, but hopefully I can get below 4 and get as close as 3:50.
i guess it's crucial that i decide what should be my target, and set the pacing plan accordingly. May i ask for suggestion/recomendations on this?

Compared to april race, total and wkly mileage is about similar (600 miles/avg 40-45/wk). LSRs for april were 4x16miles, 3x19, 1x20, 2x21, 1x22 with similar pace. One difference is that I feel noticiably easier doing LSRs this time. I did several more Threshold and VO2 max sessions in April with similar intensity, and again this time, i feel not as taxing.

You will get some benefit simply from having been running for longer but realistically if you're doing roughly the same training (same miles, same pace) as you did for the first one you won't be an awful lot faster. If you feel that you can up your intensity a little without getting injured you may get a little closer to 3:50.

As for pace on the day it's a little far out to be making a call but I'd guess you're heading towards a place where if you went out in 1:58 you'd be able to come back in something very close to that time and comfortably get in under 4 hrs. You might be able to manage faster but if sub-4 hrs is a milestone you'd like to get to then given your previous near even split performance this is the way I'd recommend going about it.

griffin100 · 14-09-2011 12:32pm

Some great advice on this thread. I’m thinking of doing Dublin this year and am not sure as to how to structure the few weeks training that are left. Some history:

I did Dublin last year in 3.53. I paced it really badly – I did the first 10km in 56mins / hit 21kms in 1.52 / 30km in 2.39, and blew up completely over the last 10km. I also ended up getting a foot injury / strain of some sort that took two months and a few visits to the physio to sort out. This was my first stand alone marathon. Prior to this I had done my first marathon around 12 weeks before in 4.40hrs as part of an Ironman Triathlon.

This year I’ve run a bit more that last year. I’ve done around 1,200kms this year to date. Two weeks ago I did a 4.29hr marathon as part of another Iron Man (slow I know but I had just cycled the Ring Of Kerry). When training for this I was running 3-4 times a week. Usually I would do a Monday recovery run of 5-7 miles at slow pace – 9.15+mm; my second run of the week I would do at a ‘fast’ pace, again 6-8 miles at usually around 7.30-40mm pace; if I had time I would do a third weekday run of 6-8 miles at 8.15ish pace and then my LSR at the weekend. My LSR’s once they got above 15-16 miles were all run on heart rate with no reference to pace. I would run with my HR at around 15 bpm below my LT. These runs would come in at around 9.05 – 9.15mm pace. My longest runs were a 20 mile and a 22 mile. My biggest mileage week was around 41 miles, not huge but I was cycling and swimming as well.

I’ve no real times for shorter races as I haven’t done a short race in a long time but my PB’s are 45.45 for 10km and 1.49hrs for HM (I’ve gone slightly faster for a HM distance in training).

For the last two weeks I’ve been in recovery mode, I’ve run 4 times up to a maximum of 8 miles, all relatively slow. There are 7 weeks left to Dublin counting this week and I’m thinking of entering but only if I can go better than last year. I'm not cycling or swimming at the minute so I have more time to devote to running. I would be happy with a 3.40-45hr. Anyone any thoughts on the feasibility of this / what do concentrate on over the next few weeks?

catweazle · 14-09-2011 6:13pm

griffin100 wrote: »

I would be happy with a 3.40-45hr.

Did you see the pacers for the 3.45, there will be plenty of gossip

Clearlier · 14-09-2011 10:37pm

griffin100 wrote: »

Some great advice on this thread. I’m thinking of doing Dublin this year and am not sure as to how to structure the few weeks training that are left. Some history:

I did Dublin last year in 3.53. I paced it really badly – I did the first 10km in 56mins / hit 21kms in 1.52 / 30km in 2.39, and blew up completely over the last 10km. I also ended up getting a foot injury / strain of some sort that took two months and a few visits to the physio to sort out. This was my first stand alone marathon. Prior to this I had done my first marathon around 12 weeks before in 4.40hrs as part of an Ironman Triathlon.

This year I’ve run a bit more that last year. I’ve done around 1,200kms this year to date. Two weeks ago I did a 4.29hr marathon as part of another Iron Man (slow I know but I had just cycled the Ring Of Kerry). When training for this I was running 3-4 times a week. Usually I would do a Monday recovery run of 5-7 miles at slow pace – 9.15+mm; my second run of the week I would do at a ‘fast’ pace, again 6-8 miles at usually around 7.30-40mm pace; if I had time I would do a third weekday run of 6-8 miles at 8.15ish pace and then my LSR at the weekend. My LSR’s once they got above 15-16 miles were all run on heart rate with no reference to pace. I would run with my HR at around 15 bpm below my LT. These runs would come in at around 9.05 – 9.15mm pace. My longest runs were a 20 mile and a 22 mile. My biggest mileage week was around 41 miles, not huge but I was cycling and swimming as well.

I’ve no real times for shorter races as I haven’t done a short race in a long time but my PB’s are 45.45 for 10km and 1.49hrs for HM (I’ve gone slightly faster for a HM distance in training).

For the last two weeks I’ve been in recovery mode, I’ve run 4 times up to a maximum of 8 miles, all relatively slow. There are 7 weeks left to Dublin counting this week and I’m thinking of entering but only if I can go better than last year. I'm not cycling or swimming at the minute so I have more time to devote to running. I would be happy with a 3.40-45hr. Anyone any thoughts on the feasibility of this / what do concentrate on over the next few weeks?

The first thing to say is that I really don't know what time you'd be capable of doing in Dublin. I wouldn't doubt that you'd hit 3:45 and probably faster if you had this as your sole focus. Given that you're two weeks since an Ironman you've got a tough balancing act to get the best out of yourself come Dublin.

I imagine that the effects of an ironman are at least as bad as an all out marathon and possibly worse? That being the case I'd stick predominantly to easy running but I'd try and build the miles up relatively quickly.

Given that you'll have a relatively large amount of training time available but a relatively low capacity to absorb training in the aftermath of your ironman I'd suggest that you spent a fair amount of time working on your running form. This can mean drills, strides (do both of these after most of your runs), strength (particularly core) and flexibility.

I'd consider doing a two week taper rather than the traditional three and if your body feels up to it I'd put in a steady run 5 weeks out, a marathon pace run 4 weeks out and a tempo run 3 weeks out. Other than a dress rehearsal 2-3 miles on marathon week and strides I wouldn't do any other running faster than easy but I would do as many miles as I could manage comfortably. Your biggest challenge will be to get in some training whilst also managing to be fresh for Dublin. As I said before though I unfortunately have no idea what time this approach would give you.

paddi · 15-09-2011 3:08am

Clearlier wrote: »

The plan seems reasonable with the caveat that I wouldn't go longer than 3 hours. If for example you were running LSR's @ 10mm then I wouldn't suggest ever going further than 18 miles. 3 hours is a long time on your feet.
As for pace on the day it's a little far out to be making a call but I'd guess you're heading towards a place where if you went out in 1:58 you'd be able to come back in something very close to that time and comfortably get in under 4 hrs. You might be able to manage faster but if sub-4 hrs is a milestone you'd like to get to then given your previous near even split performance this isish the way I'd recommend going about it.

Clearlier,
thanks so much again for the comments. i'm going to incorporate them into remaining of my training. (keep LSR within 3 hour etc). Am also thinking to inject 3:50'ish-equivalent PMP into LSRs and see how far I can get to set my final target. Thanks again.

griffin100 · 16-09-2011 12:26pm

Thanks Clearlier. The 2 week taper is an interesting suggestion, I was leaning towards this myself as I only tapered for 2 weeks coming into IM and it worked well as I hadn't been putting in big mileage / time weeks (average 10hrs training / week). I'll aim for less speed work and more mileage in the few weeks left.

wilmaa · 16-09-2011 6:41pm

Hi Guys you are a wealth of info, will sit tonight and try and inwardly digest previous entries.

I have a challenge for you all.

Am I insane, I plan to try and attempt Dublin again this year after a few years break and a couple of children. I would consider ye guys as greyhounds and me as a minature Jack Russell. Made the commitment the end of July.

Had been cycling consistently 100miles plus each week since end of March, and had been on the turbo trainer, before that. During the summer I completed some of the an Post longer cycles. Took to cycling post baby as ligaments were allover the place and kept getting injured.

TRaining time is limited, I work full time, run around after my little ones, have a very supportive other half, but he works shifts that change from week to week, so routine is haphazard.

Sitting here minding a chest infection and worrying about missing out on training this week, was planning to do another 13miles this weekend might still.

The Challenge is get me to the finish I'm not bothered about my time as long as I get around injury free and before I get too hungry!

Should I chicken out and look to next year??????

What do the seasoned marathoners think? Have to respect the distance.

Clearlier · 16-09-2011 9:00pm

Hi Wilmaa,

Have you done any running training or just cycling? If you have done some running can you give us the details please? If you have only been cycling then I'd suggest postponing unless you're a masochist

wilmaa · 18-09-2011 8:44pm

Hi guys was away for weekend, just back.

No I'm not a masochist! Prior to August running 6miles / 10k per week plus the cycling, so from 31st July when I kind of made the commitment, slowly upped the distance, managing 20 miles (the occ 30miles but this was rare) per week. managed a few 10s and a couple of 13's with no ill effects, average 10 - 11 minute miles, slow and steady.

Watched the great north run this morning which was the start of all this 10 years ago!

But seriously, I think I'll read all you tips, and aim for next year, am still feeling not to great and didn't get any miles in this weekend. I won't competely throw the towel in yet, otherwise I'll be back to where I was but next July!

I'll listen to those in the know.

Thanks, W

Clearlier · 19-09-2011 12:22pm

Hi Wilmaa,

Given that you're not a masochist

you've probably made the best decision. I suspect that you probably could get around Dublin using a run/walk strategy (although I'm not certain) however it would hurt an awful lot and very possibly leave you injured.

wilmaa · 19-09-2011 7:49pm

thanks for that, sense prevails, will target Connemara, at least the half, instead. Good luck yourselves, W.

Jimh · 19-09-2011 8:43pm

Did the half on Saturday - Went with the two hour pacers but felt I could comfotably go a bit quicker so went on ahead - was going great till 9.5 miles when something seemed to pop in the back of my knee as I went over one of the speed ramps - the pain eased a bit so I carried on with a bit of a limp and came in at 1:57:33 but I could not have gone much further and the walk back to the car seemed to take forever. Doctor in First Aid room gave me a Chemical Ice pack and told me to take a week off from running - It stiffened up on the Saturday but is a lot easier now but I can still feel it a bit - going to give it a try tomorrow for a few miles as I need to get some miles in - I want a 20 miler on Saturday before the Athlone 3/4 the week after as i have not gone past 15 miles yet. I ordered a knee support from Wiggle today and will see if that helps

Clearlier · 20-09-2011 10:31pm

Sorry to hear about your knee Jim, just remember to do what you can do not what you want to do or what the schedule says you should do. You're better off on the line undertrained than perfectly trained but watching from the sidelines. Fingers crossed your knee gets better quickly.

Jimh · 21-09-2011 9:17pm

Tried running Tuesday but gave it up after a 100 yards - Not a lot of pain but could feel every step and I could feel myself starting to go lame - I still have a bit of stiffness in the knee. If I can't get the Athlone 3/4 in on 3rd of October then I think that's it and I will have to miss out as I have only 1 x 15 miler in and 3 or 4 x 1/2 Marathons - Pace wise I am going much better this year but the long runs have been a bit of a disaster since the Longford half. The main thing keeping me going is that I am too tight to lose the €99 I forked out to enter the two races

Van.Bosch · 21-09-2011 9:56pm

Hi, my LSR this week is 20 and I will be doing another two weeks after which is the Hal higdon inter 1 plan. Would doing the Athlone 3/4 in between be overkill?

My LSr will have been 15/17/18/20/20 So I'm wondering if that's enough. I'm going for 3:50 and did 1:43 in the half.
Thanks

NeedsTraining · 21-09-2011 11:01pm

Hey all, looking for some marathon advise. Prior to last Saturdays half the target for DCM was sub 3. However, had a terrible run in the half after falling apart after just 5km. After contemplating dropping out I finished in 1.32 which was 3 mins slower than last year. I put it down to not feeling recovered after Galway HIM but I am questioning myself now if it was more than that.
Anyway, have trained hard all year will lots of ups and downs. Plenty of pb's in tris and road and was looking forward to the same in DCM but now I don't know.
If it was you, would you 1. Take a 3 week break and then start training for next season or 2. Continue on the DCM train?

All advise welcome

earlyevening · 21-09-2011 11:17pm

What would I do?

2. Continue but maybe expect 3:10 or something. Then again, you just never know...

I'd never want to wait around another six months or something to do another marathon. PBs are nice, but you dont need to get one every time.

ger664 · 21-09-2011 11:48pm

You should question it and other aspects of your daily routine.

I was in the same boat after last weeks half in Charlieville, exact same thing happened. I could not hold a pace I had done a marathon at 2 months prior.

I have since reviewed my recent logs and found that over the last six weeks my training had shown the danger signs of overtraining but I did not see them, which lead to my under performance.

Overtrainig is not just training too hard but other aspects of your life will contribute to it as well such as stress, lack of sleep, not hydrating properly, not getting time to relax.

Have a look at your daily routine and get it back on track.

Krusty_Clown · 22-09-2011 7:25am

NeedsTraining wrote: »

Hey all, looking for some marathon advise. Prior to last Saturdays half the target for DCM was sub 3. However, had a terrible run in the half after falling apart after just 5km. After contemplating dropping out I finished in 1.32 which was 3 mins slower than last year. I put it down to not feeling recovered after Galway HIM but I am questioning myself now if it was more than that.
Anyway, have trained hard all year will lots of ups and downs. Plenty of pb's in tris and road and was looking forward to the same in DCM but now I don't know.
If it was you, would you 1. Take a 3 week break and then start training for next season or 2. Continue on the DCM train?

All advise welcome

Well done in the HIM.

You haven't mentioned anything about what marathon-specific training your have done. Why don't you give us an outline?

If your training has been going well and you have successfully managed your long runs and PMP sessions, then there's no reason not to stick to the plan. Chalk it down to a bad run.

If your focus had been 100% on training for the HIM, then you may lack the specificity for a faster solo half marathon or marathon. You might have the endurance and overall conditioning, but not the run-specific leg speed. Maybe all your focus for the remaining 5 weeks should be on building the combination of speed and endurance e.g. tempo runs and long sequences of pmp intervals (e.g. Daniels).

Gringo78 · 22-09-2011 7:45am

NeedsTraining wrote: »

Hey all, looking for some marathon advise. Prior to last Saturdays half the target for DCM was sub 3. However, had a terrible run in the half after falling apart after just 5km. After contemplating dropping out I finished in 1.32 which was 3 mins slower than last year. I put it down to not feeling recovered after Galway HIM but I am questioning myself now if it was more than that.

Have you done any tempos in training? Normally these would have been done at or better than HM pace and for longer than 5km so if you've done similar on another day more comfortably then maybe it was just tiredness from the HIM.

What pace did you set out at? Do your other PB's point at a sub 3 capability? What run rime did you have in the 70.3? We all have our off days so I'd never pin all my plans on one race.

NeedsTraining · 22-09-2011 1:35pm

Thanks for the replies.

To answer some of your questions and hopefully give a better indication of where I am at.

HIM run time was 1.39 and was within my target so was happy with it. Was conservative as I had never raced this distance before (HIM that is).

My times throughout the summer have pointed towards a sub 3 marathon.
5k - 18.02
5 mile - 32.10
10 mile - 64

I have been combining long runs, tempo and intervals so the correct training is there I believe.

After looking back over logs and daily routines, I see work was mental and training was somewhat rushed, legs felt tired and wasn't properly hydrated on the Wed and Thursday before the race.

Maybe I won't throw in the towel just yet.

Further advice welcome

Clearlier · 22-09-2011 11:07pm

Van Bosch - Yes it would be too much.

NeedsTraining - I don't know much about triathlon racing but I'd imagine that a half ironman fairly takes it out of you. Attempting a full-on half marathon two weeks later sounds like a recipe for tears to be honest. Add in what you have mentioned about tiredness and stress at work and I think you've got your answer as to why you performed so far below your own standards.

Other thoughts which may or may not be welcome

. Taken in isolation I'm not sure that your times do suggest a sub-3 although you're not far away. The 5k does but that's the least relevant. The 5 mile is irrelevant as your 10 mile pace was quicker. 64mins for 10 miles is right on the borderline of what's needed to get a sub-3. Taken together with the 5k this suggest that endurance is an issue and you'll struggle to hold pace for a sub-3.

That said, I am taking those in isolation, if for example you had done the 10 miles 3 months ago and the 5k 2 weeks ago then I wouldn't draw the same conclusion at all. Also you could easily have progressed significantly since you did those races.

However if the times are representative of your current fitness levels then I'd suggest you adjust your training slightly during the last few weeks to favour endurance ahead of VO2 max work which is what I assume you're doing with interval training. You could keep intervals but maybe make them very long with long rest in between. That way you're still getting in some fast running but it's predominantly working your aerobic system e.g. 3*10mins with 5mins rest.

macinalli · 26-09-2011 8:12am

Hi folks,
Not actually doing the Dublin marathon (Liverpool instead in 2 weeks) but thought this would be a good place to ask about gels. For previous marathons I've taken them at pretty random times and was wondering about a strategy for Liverpool. This time around I did almost all of my training without gels (I tried 1 in my last LSR at the weekend to check it agreed with me - all good!) so have no basis for deciding on how many gels and when to take them. Any advice?

Van.Bosch · 26-09-2011 10:11am

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Hi I'm following Hal Higdon Intermediate 1 for my second marathon and my training has been good to date. I'm aiming for 3:50 and feel my training is on course. I did DCM 2 years ago with a similar goal, blew up after 14 miles and came home in 4:14, was happy enough but know I can go faster.

As I said training is good and my race times are good, 10mile 76 mins & half 1:43. My problem is I'm just in from my LSR which was due to be 18 but I had planned 20 (as I felt my weakness last time was not enough 20 miles), first 12 were fine but started to feel wrecked at 13 and finished at 17.6 miles in 2:33. I felt a bit sick so didn't want to push.

Now I'm worried that psychologically quitting at 17.6 shows a risk for the marathon. I think since that pace is PMP maybe i went too fast. After all that rambling I guess my question is how would you feel? Just put it down to a bad run or what?

Thanks

Thanks to everyone for their responses on this.

An update, since then i have completed the half marathon in the park and a 20 Miler yesterday. The HM went great and I did it in 1:41:52 (beat Clontarf PB of 1:43:10) and felt great afterwards, the LSR took 2:57 and I felt pretty wrecked after it. I went slow to start (8:45) and slowed a bit in the final few miles to about 9:15. I suppose this is still to quick for a LSR.

McMillan says I should be aiming for 3:36 based on the half and 3:57 based on the 20 Miler. I know races are usually more accurate but I think the 20 Miler is more relevant. I am hoping to get under 3:50 / 3:55.

Based on this LSR I should get about 3:57, now obvioualy as an LSR you would expect to go faster in a race but I worry about slowing down in the last miles. Maybe this is just in my head and on the day I will be able to maintian a 8:45 pace throughtout with a slight slippage towards the end for 3:50.

I suppose my question is what target would you go for if you had these times? Also do people ever plan to run a second half slower than the first or should you always aim to maintain a steady pace hoping that the energy saved at the start is stored for you in the final miles?

pistol_75 · 26-09-2011 10:29am

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for their responses on this.

An update, since then i have completed the half marathon in the park and a 20 Miler yesterday. The HM went great and I did it in 1:41:52 (beat Clontarf PB of 1:43:10) and felt great afterwards, the LSR took 2:57 and I felt pretty wrecked after it. I went slow to start (8:45) and slowed a bit in the final few miles to about 9:15. I suppose this is still to quick for a LSR.

McMillan says I should be aiming for 3:36 based on the half and 3:57 based on the 20 Miler. I know races are usually more accurate but I think the 20 Miler is more relevant. I am hoping to get under 3:50 / 3:55.

Based on this LSR I should get about 3:57, now obvioualy as an LSR you would expect to go faster in a race but I worry about slowing down in the last miles. Maybe this is just in my head and on the day I will be able to maintian a 8:45 pace throughtout with a slight slippage towards the end for 3:50.

I suppose my question is what target would you go for if you had these times? Also do people ever plan to run a second half slower than the first or should you always aim to maintain a steady pace hoping that the energy saved at the start is stored for you in the final miles?

Well done on your half marathon time. You beat me by a few seconds. Based on this I think you could aim for around 3:45 pace for the marathon and if you felt stronger push on towards the end.

You should check the pace you are running your LSR's at though. 8:45 is not a slow pace to start. I would suggest it is too quick based on the time you are looking for. I would do most of mine between 9 & 9:15 pace starting at the slower end and gradually increasing pace towards the end. If you are running them at the right pace you should be able to pick up the pace for the last few miles. These runs are more about time on your feet than pace.

RayCun · 26-09-2011 10:31am

Van.Bosch wrote: »

the LSR took 2:57 and I felt pretty wrecked after it. I went slow to start (8:45) and slowed a bit in the final few miles to about 9:15. I suppose this is still to quick for a LSR....Based on this LSR I should get about 3:57, now obvioualy as an LSR you would expect to go faster in a race but I worry about slowing down in the last miles. Maybe this is just in my head and on the day I will be able to maintian a 8:45 pace throughtout with a slight slippage towards the end for 3:50.

Yes, much too fast for an LSR, which is why you couldn't maintain the pace towards the end. On race day, well rested, with the boost of the race atmosphere, you should be able to maintain that pace the whole distance, but doing it in training is crazy.

Clearlier · 26-09-2011 11:58am

Van Bosch - Train to race, don't race in training. Start all your runs very slowly, speed up gradually and finish fast if you want to. Adhere to those two principles over the next few weeks and the 3:45 that RayCun mentioned should be yours for the taking.

For the race itself, steady pace every time. You can't bank time in a marathon.

Van.Bosch · 26-09-2011 1:17pm

Clearlier wrote: »

Van Bosch - Train to race, don't race in training. Start all your runs very slowly, speed up gradually and finish fast if you want to. Adhere to those two principles over the next few weeks and the 3:45 that RayCun mentioned should be yours for the taking.

For the race itself, steady pace every time. You can't bank time in a marathon.

Thanks again for the contributions, I think the above sums up exactly what I have been trying to do. Sub consciously I have had this niggle about DCM 2009 where I was shattered for the last 10 miles and I think I was trying to get a few good miles in early to offset at the end, which obviously then shatters you at the end, so is counterproductive.

Based on the above comments I get the impression that 3:50 is possible and 3:45 should be possible if I pace myself properly and go for an average of 8:35 a mile. As opposed to a first 13 of 8:35 and a second 13 of 8:55 if aiming for sub 3:50

I have another LSR in the plan for two weeks from now with a step back week this week. I know prople have already advised against doing the Athlone 3/4 between two 20 Milers but the plan has me down as doing 12 this weekend. Would doing a LSR for 20 again be stupid? I know rest is important but bearing in mind the above has just dawned on me should I have two LSR's to practice.

Thanks again

Mr Slow · 26-09-2011 1:21pm

Just to point out that 8:45 a mile gives you 3:49.

Van.Bosch · 26-09-2011 1:35pm

Mr Slow wrote: »

Just to point out that 8:45 a mile gives you 3:49.

corrected that now, got mixed up between my aim of 3:50 and a possible 3:45 - Thanks

Mr Slow · 26-09-2011 2:16pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

corrected that now, got mixed up between my aim of 3:50 and a possible 3:45 - Thanks

Just being pedantic!;)

Clearlier · 26-09-2011 3:27pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Thanks again for the contributions, I think the above sums up exactly what I have been trying to do. Sub consciously I have had this niggle about DCM 2009 where I was shattered for the last 10 miles and I think I was trying to get a few good miles in early to offset at the end, which obviously then shatters you at the end, so is counterproductive.

You might find it helpful to think about going at a steady pace at the beginning so that you don't get shattered for the last 10. Most people work better when they think about what they need to do rather than what they need to not do.

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I have another LSR in the plan for two weeks from now with a step back week this week. I know prople have already advised against doing the Athlone 3/4 between two 20 Milers but the plan has me down as doing 12 this weekend. Would doing a LSR for 20 again be stupid? I know rest is important but bearing in mind the above has just dawned on me should I have two LSR's to practice.

Thanks again

Probably

. This is where the advice about training to race is relevant. 3 LSR's in a row taking c. 3hrs to complete will leave you feeling wiped. What would you be practising anyway?

Rest is important because that's when the adaptations to your training take place. If you don't rest you don't adapt. You don't get faster when you train, you get faster when you rest!

Mr Slow · 26-09-2011 4:22pm

Clearlier wrote: »

You don't get faster when you train, you get faster when you rest!

I'll throw the feet up so, roll on DCM;)

Clearlier · 26-09-2011 6:56pm

Mr Slow wrote: »

I'll throw the feet up so, roll on DCM;)

Had a feeling somebody might say that :P

itsalltrue · 03-10-2011 10:03am

Looking for some more advice.

I ran the half in 1:32:45 - McMillin Calc say i should complete the full in 3:17.

Yesterday i ran my long run 21.25 miles in 3 hours. My legs were a little sore at the end but i felt i had loads of energy left to keep going. That pace was around 8:30 minute miles. I was fairly even the whole way around with my last few miles at the same speed as my first few.

I really want to break 3:30 which i feel i'm well capable of doing however with feeling so good should i push myself a little more. Its my 2nd marathon and i learnt a lot from the first. Shoul i look to getting closer to 3:20

I'm in 2 minds - stick with the 3:30 pacer all the way and see if i can pull away towards the end.

Or

Run the 1st 3 miles with the pacer and increase my speed to 7:30 minute miles and see how far it takes me.

Any advice?

Mr Slow · 03-10-2011 10:19am

itsalltrue wrote: »

Looking for some more advice.

I ran the half in 1:32:45 - McMillin Calc say i should complete the full in 3:17.

Yesterday i ran my long run 21.25 miles in 3 hours. My legs were a little sore at the end but i felt i had loads of energy left to keep going. That pace was around 8:30 minute miles. I was fairly even the whole way around with my last few miles at the same speed as my first few.

I really want to break 3:30 which i feel i'm well capable of doing however with feeling so good should i push myself a little more. Its my 2nd marathon and i learnt a lot from the first. Shoul i look to getting closer to 3:20

I'm in 2 minds - stick with the 3:30 pacer all the way and see if i can pull away towards the end.

Or

Run the 1st 3 miles with the pacer and increase my speed to 7:30 minute miles and see how far it takes me.

Any advice?

I'm in a similar position to yourself, actually there's seconds between us and I've asked the same questions, I was advised to run a long paced run to see how it feels which I did, 20 with 14 @ 7:43 and it was tough, I'm going to follow the 3:30 pacers until 15 miles and try and pull away at that point, every 10 secs gained is 10 secs off 3:30.

Also McMillan is too optimistic for the marathon especially in the first few marathon training rotations.

macinalli · 03-10-2011 10:38am

Am also in a similar boat to you! My pace is based on 2 x 10 mile races (both around 70 mins) and have run 2 x 20 miles LSR and 1 x 21. Have decided that I'm going to aim for around 7.40 pace and will see how the race plays out. I'll be doing Liverpool next Sunday so will let you know how it goes.

Itsalltrue - I wouldn't go for the 7.30 mile pace to see how far it goes. Lots of people on here say that you can't bank time in a marathon, and if it does go wrong you'll lose much more time than you've gained. Do you need to run with the DCM pacer? If you think you can get 3.20, why not go at that pace from the start?

dernipper · 04-10-2011 8:05am

How did Athlone go? As I mentioned originally had the same as plan yourself and was going to do another LSR this W/E after doing 22, the 3/4 last week and then another 22 this W/E but going to listen to the body and scale back this week and just do a shorter run of about 8/10 miles this w/e, just feel a couple of niggles and just feel the risk is not worth it,,, so be careful and don't push it too hard especially this close !!!

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Clearlier wrote: »

Van Bosch - Train to race, don't race in training. Start all your runs very slowly, speed up gradually and finish fast if you want to. Adhere to those two principles over the next few weeks and the 3:45 that RayCun mentioned should be yours for the taking.

For the race itself, steady pace every time. You can't bank time in a marathon.

Thanks again for the contributions, I think the above sums up exactly what I have been trying to do. Sub consciously I have had this niggle about DCM 2009 where I was shattered for the last 10 miles and I think I was trying to get a few good miles in early to offset at the end, which obviously then shatters you at the end, so is counterproductive.

Based on the above comments I get the impression that 3:50 is possible and 3:45 should be possible if I pace myself properly and go for an average of 8:35 a mile. As opposed to a first 13 of 8:35 and a second 13 of 8:55 if aiming for sub 3:50

I have another LSR in the plan for two weeks from now with a step back week this week. I know prople have already advised against doing the Athlone 3/4 between two 20 Milers but the plan has me down as doing 12 this weekend. Would doing a LSR for 20 again be stupid? I know rest is important but bearing in mind the above has just dawned on me should I have two LSR's to practice.

Thanks again

Clearlier · 04-10-2011 9:03am

itsalltrue wrote: »

Looking for some more advice.

I ran the half in 1:32:45 - McMillin Calc say i should complete the full in 3:17.

Yesterday i ran my long run 21.25 miles in 3 hours. My legs were a little sore at the end but i felt i had loads of energy left to keep going. That pace was around 8:30 minute miles. I was fairly even the whole way around with my last few miles at the same speed as my first few.

I really want to break 3:30 which i feel i'm well capable of doing however with feeling so good should i push myself a little more. Its my 2nd marathon and i learnt a lot from the first. Shoul i look to getting closer to 3:20

I'm in 2 minds - stick with the 3:30 pacer all the way and see if i can pull away towards the end.

Or

Run the 1st 3 miles with the pacer and increase my speed to 7:30 minute miles and see how far it takes me.

Any advice?

I don't suppose that you've been using a HRM? It's a useful way of gauging effort (holding yourself back) especially in a marathon where the first half really should feel easy.

3:17 off your half is possible only if you are well trained and can run a fairly even split or you have made a leap in fitness since the half. Normally you would be running for several years and probably averaging 50-60+mpw in training for this race. Obviously there are exceptions but if you met those criteria I'd happily tell you to sit behind the 3:15 pacers and keep their balloons in sight for the first several miles.

How has your training progressed in the last 4 weeks? Have you made any changes to your schedule/seen any improvements in performance?

How important is 3:30 to you? If it is your A goal and you'd be gutted missing it then head out with the 3:30 pacers and if you feel like it pick it up for the last few miles. If on the other hand you think you'd spend the next year thinking about what might have been you might want to start a little further up but focus on keeping it easy for the first half. The latter approach requires a lot of discipline and is not an easily executed race. You'll need to spend some time visualising what'll happen (good practice anyway), imagine how you'll react in different scenarios and have a plan to fall back on if it starts feeling wrong.

Just remembered about the wave system - which wave are you in? Which wave are the 3:30 pacers in? That could make a difference because you won't be able to keep an eye on the 3:15 balloons if you're in the second wave.

I wouldn't be that enamoured with the idea of sticking with the pacers for three miles and then taking off. If you want to stop yourself going off to fast then 2 miles will be enough to settle down. You want to get into the rhythm of the pace that you're going to run at sooner rather than later and sit back in your armchair for the first half.

Clearlier · 04-10-2011 9:10am

macinalli wrote: »

Am also in a similar boat to you! My pace is based on 2 x 10 mile races (both around 70 mins) and have run 2 x 20 miles LSR and 1 x 21. Have decided that I'm going to aim for around 7.40 pace and will see how the race plays out. I'll be doing Liverpool next Sunday so will let you know how it goes.

Itsalltrue - I wouldn't go for the 7.30 mile pace to see how far it goes. Lots of people on here say that you can't bank time in a marathon, and if it does go wrong you'll lose much more time than you've gained. Do you need to run with the DCM pacer? If you think you can get 3.20, why not go at that pace from the start?

Good luck in Liverpool Macinalli. I just had a look at the course and aside from a mile or so just after halfway it looks like a fairly flat race. Hope you enjoy and achieve your target.

greenplain · 04-10-2011 9:40am

Hi,

I am looking for some opinions/advice on my goal for the Dublin marathon

Here is some background :

This will be my third marathon.
I ran Cork this year in 3.35.
I want to run sub 3.30 for Dublin.
I think I can get close to sub 3.20 and that's where I need some advice :

I did the 3/4 Athlone race on Sunday in 2.30 and although I was tired, I had more in the legs to keep going.

Apart from the 3/4 marathon, I have ran two other 20 milers both in the time of 2.43. I know i am doing my LSR too fast. I am going to do one more LSR, a 21 miler and I will slow my pace right down for it.

During the course of this cycle of training I have done a couple of 40 mpw and now for the last two weeks i have done 52 mpw. I am on a step back week this week. The week after this I plan to have one more week of 50 mpw and then taper 16 days.

I have not done any format interval training or tempo training. For example some days I will go out and run 8 miles at 6.59 pace and the following day I will do it at 7.10 - 7.18 pace. I also have a few 10k training runs done at 6.40 pace but that was weeks ago.

So with the above info do you think I could achieve sub 3.20 ?.if not is there anything I could do in the short amount of time to get there ?

macinalli · 04-10-2011 11:54am

Clearlier wrote: »

Good luck in Liverpool Macinalli. I just had a look at the course and aside from a mile or so just after halfway it looks like a fairly flat race. Hope you enjoy and achieve your target.

Cheers for that! The hill at half way is actually when we come out of the Mersey tunnel - should be an interesting experience!

Clearlier · 04-10-2011 11:54am

Hi Greenplain,

Have you done any races all out recently? How does your training compare to what you did for Cork? How did you split at Cork i.e. fairly even halves, steady to 20 and then a gentle fade, crashed and burned at 23 etc.? How do you structure your training weeks? Did you taper for Athlone at all? If you were to manage an untapered 3/4 marathon at marathon pace on a tougher course (assuming what I've heard is true) then I'd imagine that you wouldn't be too far away. The caveats I have are about your endurance and the possibility that you underestimate the effort that Athlone required (very easily done).

greenplain · 04-10-2011 1:12pm

Hi Clear,

Thanks for getting back to me -

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Have you done any races all out recently? [/FONT] - No I have not. I did the Clontarf half, in July and did it in 1.33. But it was real warm that day. I know i could go close to sub 1.30.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How does your training compare to what you did for Cork? [/FONT] - It better. I did not hit any 50 mile weeks and only had to 20 milers done. I was dogged with a groin injury for six weeks. All better now.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How did you split at Cork i.e. fairly even halves, steady to 20 and then a gentle fade, crashed and burned at 23 etc.? [/FONT] - I did get real tired at mile 23 but fine up until that. I feel i am fitter now, plus i am ready to hurt and keep going
[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
How do you structure your training weeks? [/FONT] - loosely following HH advanced 1 program only on a mileage basis though

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Did you taper for Athlone at all? - No. the week of the race i had ran 32 miles 8 monday-thursday
[/FONT]

I was out yesterday and did a handy 8 miles

Tonight will run 10

Clearlier · 04-10-2011 1:49pm

greenplain wrote: »

Hi Clear,

Thanks for getting back to me -

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Have you done any races all out recently? [/FONT] - No I have not. I did the Clontarf half, in July and did it in 1.33. But it was real warm that day. I know i could go close to sub 1.30.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How does your training compare to what you did for Cork? [/FONT] - It better. I did not hit any 50 mile weeks and only had to 20 milers done. I was dogged with a groin injury for six weeks. All better now.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How did you split at Cork i.e. fairly even halves, steady to 20 and then a gentle fade, crashed and burned at 23 etc.? [/FONT] - I did get real tired at mile 23 but fine up until that. I feel i am fitter now, plus i am ready to hurt and keep going
[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
How do you structure your training weeks? [/FONT] - loosely following HH advanced 1 program only on a mileage basis though

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Did you taper for Athlone at all? - No. the week of the race i had ran 32 miles 8 monday-thursday
[/FONT]

I was out yesterday and did a handy 8 miles

Tonight will run 10

I find myself wanting to get more and more details about your training. That isn't practical but it does tell me that you've got to be pretty close because I can't quite make my mind up. It sounds like you've been doing a fair bit of running in and around marathon pace which means that you should be fairly comfortable at that pace. Make sure that the first half is an armchair ride. You don't push it, you just let the pace come to you, concentrate on maintaining through 20 and especially onto the Merrion Rd.. I think that you can do 3:20 but if turns out really hot or you're just not feeling well back off a little and make sure you get yourself a PB. It's amazing how much time you can lose in a marathon if you don't pace it well. Anything in the low 3:20's would be a significant improvement in a short space of time from Cork.

Good luck!

PS: the main think that I would change about the HH plan would be to get in a longer midweek run to boost your endurance. The fact that it has you running 6 days a week is good though and the plan has 30 miles on a couple of weekends which will help. If you have been more or less sticking to the plan so far I'd stay with it now.

greenplain · 04-10-2011 1:58pm

Thanks for the input Clearier. Honestly I would be very happy with a low 3.20 finish. As you said i'll see how i am feeling at the half way mark and take it from there

Van.Bosch · 05-10-2011 3:52pm

dernipper wrote: »

How did Athlone go? As I mentioned originally had the same as plan yourself and was going to do another LSR this W/E after doing 22, the 3/4 last week and then another 22 this W/E but going to listen to the body and scale back this week and just do a shorter run of about 8/10 miles this w/e, just feel a couple of niggles and just feel the risk is not worth it,,, so be careful and don't push it too hard especially this close !!!

Didnt do it in the end - did a 12 mile run as per the plan. training has been hit this week by working late so will have to do 5 days in a row with a 21/22 Miler on Saturday being the last big run of the program. Hoping to take that nice and handy and finish it knowing that just a few more is all that will be needed in 3 weeks.

how is your training coming along?

dernipper · 06-10-2011 12:48pm

Overall good I think, have had my injuries and not at where I hoped I would be at the start of the year but pretty much where I should be after a late summer re plan due to those injuries, if that makes sense !!

I would have liked another LSR this w/e but I know I have enough done to date (18, 22, 22, 20) so should be ok, hoping for sub 3:30 but my gut instinct is that I am looking at a sub 3:34,,, will see, in many ways I will be happy to be on the starting line as it looked bleak at times and I want to enjoy it, I know I have done all I could do to be as best prepared as possible, if that proves good enough great if not there is always another one although I will be giving it all I have on the day !!

How about yourself ?

Van.Bosch wrote: »

dernipper wrote: »

How did Athlone go? As I mentioned originally had the same as plan yourself and was going to do another LSR this W/E after doing 22, the 3/4 last week and then another 22 this W/E but going to listen to the body and scale back this week and just do a shorter run of about 8/10 miles this w/e, just feel a couple of niggles and just feel the risk is not worth it,,, so be careful and don't push it too hard especially this close !!!

Didnt do it in the end - did a 12 mile run as per the plan. training has been hit this week by working late so will have to do 5 days in a row with a 21/22 Miler on Saturday being the last big run of the program. Hoping to take that nice and handy and finish it knowing that just a few more is all that will be needed in 3 weeks.

how is your training coming along?

bjk210 · 06-10-2011 7:45pm

Greenplain,

Based on your post a few days ago I think I was running along side you for most of the Athlone race last Sunday.

I think you are very likely to break 3.20 in Dublin. I think the only thing that you can do at this stage to make it more likely is do something to boost your confidence that you can do it and hence make you go out at a pace you need for 3.20.

Here are two suggestions.

1. Do a 10km race next weekend (as recommended by P/D).

2. Do a Yasso 800 workout - run 10 x 1/2 a mile in 3.15-3.20 with 1/4 mile in between.

Hope to see you at the starting line in Dublin.

greenplain wrote: »

Hi,

I am looking for some opinions/advice on my goal for the Dublin marathon

Here is some background :

This will be my third marathon.
I ran Cork this year in 3.35.
I want to run sub 3.30 for Dublin.
I think I can get close to sub 3.20 and that's where I need some advice :

I did the 3/4 Athlone race on Sunday in 2.30 and although I was tired, I had more in the legs to keep going.

Apart from the 3/4 marathon, I have ran two other 20 milers both in the time of 2.43. I know i am doing my LSR too fast. I am going to do one more LSR, a 21 miler and I will slow my pace right down for it.

During the course of this cycle of training I have done a couple of 40 mpw and now for the last two weeks i have done 52 mpw. I am on a step back week this week. The week after this I plan to have one more week of 50 mpw and then taper 16 days.

I have not done any format interval training or tempo training. For example some days I will go out and run 8 miles at 6.59 pace and the following day I will do it at 7.10 - 7.18 pace. I also have a few 10k training runs done at 6.40 pace but that was weeks ago.

So with the above info do you think I could achieve sub 3.20 ?.if not is there anything I could do in the short amount of time to get there ?

Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread

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