Fingal County Council- Where has all the money gone?

KeRbDoG

LeoB wrote: »

...
The bottom line is we are all going to be dipping ino our pocketsand while I await my first water bill I am worried about what else they can squeeze out of us.

Best option, dig a well! Just completed this for my new house, be fecked if I'm giving FingalCoCo anymore money than I have to

10belowzero

There are serious corruption / white collar crime issue's that need to be addressed by this government , starting with local government , and F.C.C in particular . Are we going too see any change or investigation , I would not hold my breath , considering the political parties all have many dark secret's and skeleton's too hide.
Like the profession's that remain untouchable - why - because so many of their number make up the house's of the Oireachtas.
Leitrim has the smallest county population , but has the largest number of ghost estates ? ,the M1 motor way run's past Sword's (one of the country's largest town's),no access too or from it too Sword's untill developer's wanted it?.
The land purchased at Thornton Hall for a prison that will never be? , the land adjacent to dublin airport , bought and resold , only to be bought back , at hughly inflated price ,why did the planner's decide on the inland route instead of the coastal route( that N.C.D people wanted and the majority of population) north of Sword's for the M1 , because the inland route opened more land for development? , you could go on all day.
Dublin corporation's planning dept was found to be highly corrupt in the 70's , what where we told , this would never happen again , after numerous junket's abroad etc to inquire and learn about better planning .
We were told their would never be another Ballymun, Tallaght or Darndale built (no disrespect too these area's),instead we would have the highest standard's of planning in the world , with severe regulation and compliance and that the sun would shine down for ever more on a land with the finest best planned housing stock , with the best planning law's in the world.
What a sad sick joke all that turned out to be , if you wanted an example of lousy or non existent planning , the F.C.C would definately win hand's down .
You could only assume , that some planning permission's were granted , by the position of beer mat's on the table or by the way the planner's drew the outline of site's ,with their finger's with the spilt beer slop's on the table.
I am soundly of the opinion , after seeing what's gone on in this country , that any man or women in a position of authority , either in private business or public service should need a licence and be vetted as too their competence , integrity and honesty and their ability too remain incorruptable , before being allowed to take a position of any type of authority , and then only after the people vetting them , have been vetted to ensure the highest standard's.
Will thing's change , yes, for the worst unfortunately , until we stop blaming worker's ,and put the blame where it belong's in the soiled hand's of greedy incompetent ,self serving manager's , administarator's and public representative's , be they public or private , who as a FF councillor said on Prime Time one night '' what's wrong with making a fast buck , sure it's all about the fast buck''.
In the mean time ordinary folk will , will continue to struggle to provide and survive , while our white collar master's get ready to divy up the spoil's of the water and refuse privatization's ,rubbing their hand's in monetary greed , and after all these year's , still not having learnt one iota from the fiasco of the Eircom privatization debacle , the Irish public will probably applaud them for selling us ,something we all ready own , O mother dear will we ever learn.

Corsendonk

KeRbDoG wrote: »

Best option, dig a well! Just completed this for my new house, be fecked if I'm giving FingalCoCo anymore money than I have to

Not everyone has that option and there was talk of imposing a charge on people using bore holes. Then you have the cost of getting your well tested yearly at least if your using it for drinking water.

Corsendonk

10belowzero wrote: »

There are serious corruption / white collar crime issue's that need to be addressed by this government , starting with local government , and F.C.C in particular . Are we going too see any change or investigation , I would not hold my breath , considering the political parties all have many dark secret's and skeleton's too hide.
Like the profession's that remain untouchable - why - because so many of their number make up the house's of the Oireachtas.
Leitrim has the smallest county population , but has the largest number of ghost estates ? ,the M1 motor way run's past Sword's (one of the country's largest town's),no access too or from it too Sword's untill developer's wanted it?.
The land purchased at Thornton Hall for a prison that will never be? , the land adjacent to dublin airport , bought and resold , only to be bought back , at hughly inflated price ,why did the planner's decide on the inland route instead of the coastal route( that N.C.D people wanted and the majority of population) north of Sword's for the M1 , because the inland route opened more land for development? , you could go on all day.
Dublin corporation's planning dept was found to be highly corrupt in the 70's , what where we told , this would never happen again , after numerous junket's abroad etc to inquire and learn about better planning .
We were told their would never be another Ballymun, Tallaght or Darndale built (no disrespect too these area's),instead we would have the highest standard's of planning in the world , with severe regulation and compliance and that the sun would shine down for ever more on a land with the finest best planned housing stock , with the best planning law's in the world.
What a sad sick joke all that turned out to be , if you wanted an example of lousy or non existent planning , the F.C.C would definately win hand's down .
You could only assume , that some planning permission's were granted , by the position of beer mat's on the table or by the way the planner's drew the outline of site's ,with their finger's with the spilt beer slop's on the table.
I am soundly of the opinion , after seeing what's gone on in this country , that any man or women in a position of authority , either in private business or public service should need a licence and be vetted as too their competence , integrity and honesty and their ability too remain incorruptable , before being allowed to take a position of any type of authority , and then only after the people vetting them , have been vetted to ensure the highest standard's.
Will thing's change , yes, for the worst unfortunately , until we stop blaming worker's ,and put the blame where it belong's in the soiled hand's of greedy incompetent ,self serving manager's , administarator's and public representative's , be they public or private , who as a FF councillor said on Prime Time one night '' what's wrong with making a fast buck , sure it's all about the fast buck''.
In the mean time ordinary folk will , will continue to struggle to provide and survive , while our white collar master's get ready to divy up the spoil's of the water and refuse privatization's ,rubbing their hand's in monetary greed , and after all these year's , still not having learnt one iota from the fiasco of the Eircom privatization debacle , the Irish public will probably applaud them for selling us ,something we all ready own , O mother dear will we ever learn.

Have you gone to the garda with your evidence? Or is it just hearsay?

10belowzero

Only in the last forth night ,have we had a high court judge lament the pity full lack of judicial legal recourse open to him , relating to investigation's in to the banking scandal and the ''lack of co-operation from witness's'' , according to the garda being the reason , that the whole investigation was taking so long.
I believe the various tribunal's over the year's ,encountered the same problem's,10 year's or so in the case of the Moriarty tribunal.
The only person jailed in the beef scandal was the journalist who exposed the story in the first place , and why ? for trying to protect the identity of the whistle blower who had come to her , on condition of anonymity being guarantee'd , in the first place .
Maybe their's corruption , white collar crime,poor corporate governance , cronyism , looking after Ned , call it what you will - maybe their's not , in local government and private business across this country.
But unless their is leadership shown by this new goverment in drafting new legislation , giving our legal protector's , watchdog's and regulator's , real legal teeth of arrest , enforcement and investigation.
With real financial and custodial penalties for those found guilty of abuse of office and proper protection and compensation for whistle blower's , we will never know and the public can't wait 10 year's to find out.
If we ever want investor's , be they domestic or foreign to invest in this country again with confidence , then our government must demonstrate to the world , that our law's on public and private governance , administration etc are strict and robust,that their is no safe heaven here , for white collar crime or corruption within either public life or private business , or any aspect of Irish society for that matter.
It was not the ordinary worker's , the tyre fitter or window/office cleaner , the tele sales rep or council worker , who bought a bank for 210 million , only for it too be sold for 100 thousand , a nominal sum , last week ,nor was it them who has landed this country in the financial abyss it find's itself in, that's all I'm trying to say.
People who earn more in a month , than other's do in a year and the same people who earn more in a year , than most ordinary people would in a working life time (out side of wining the lotto), those with managerial , executive authority , yes the one's that tell us that our job's need to be out sourced ,because we won't work for a bowl of rice a month , like they do in china or asia, the same managerial creed , be they public or private who award them self's huge bonus's - corporate remuneration or compensation , whatever fancy title you give it , whilst planning their exit strategy , with bulging pocket's and obese pension's , private health care etc .
And who's left to pick up the tab , but the worker's , and ultimately the taxpayer yet again,until we learn from the past , we will be doomed to repeat it , that's all I'm trying to say.

Beasty

Back on topic please (which relates to the finances of Fingal County Council, not the wider woes of the country)

Thanks

Beasty

Eoineo

Actually thinking about that new budget now & the proposed reductions - from speaking to Council workers there is a moratorium on overtime, new hires, maternity/sick cover & their staff levels are down significantly. I would have thought that this would reduce the budget significantly? Hmmm

Also on the topic of water charges, while digging a well may not be an option for estate dwellers at least 1 water butt is. Grey (recycled) water is perfectly alright for flushing toilets, watering gardens & plants, washing up (once it is boiled) and washing ones self (but not your teeth). It will also come in very handy in the very likely event of water restrictions or cut off.

golfwallah

Councillor Kieran Dennison: “The real question here is whether the council should be running golf courses at all. Even during the boom there was no shortage of courses around Dublin and for those willing to travel prices were reasonable. If it means subsidizing them to the tune of €300,000 per year then the answer is no”.
I have to agree with Councillor Dennison. You only have to look at the car park in Elmgreen or Corballis to see that the bulk of people playing these subsidised courses can afford to play elsewhere.
The Council could well make a deal with the privately owned courses in respect of the unemployed.
http://www.kierandennison.com/2010_04_01_archive.html

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

Councillor Kieran Dennison: “The real question here is whether the council should be running golf courses at all. Even during the boom there was no shortage of courses around Dublin and for those willing to travel prices were reasonable. If it means subsidizing them to the tune of €300,000 per year then the answer is no”.
I have to agree with Councillor Dennison. You only have to look at the car park in Elmgreen or Corballis to see that the bulk of people playing these subsidised courses can afford to play elsewhere.
The Council could well make a deal with the privately owned courses in respect of the unemployed.http://www.kierandennison.com/2010_04_01_archive.html

Have you had a look at the privately owned courses around here lately? Some are in as dire straights as the council ran courses. Turvey is for sale, plenty of them have large loans to pay off for club house extensions based on loans given on potential property value if converted to building land. Paying your golf membership comes way down the list after paying your mortgage.

golfwallah

There are too many golf courses and too few golfers.
Spreading the golfers around all these courses means less money for everyone.
For the healthy private golf clubs to survive, the badly run ones need to be closed (whether privately or publicly owned).
This means that more loss making courses, whether privately owned like Turvey, council owned like Elmgreen and Corballis or NAMA courses like Citywest need to be taken out of the market.
The financially healthy courses currently face unfair competition from publicly financed (Council & NAMA) loss making courses whose main customers can afford to pay the reduced prices now widely available elsewhere.
Councillor Dennison is right – “the answer is no” to subsidising county council courses.

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

There are too many golf courses and too few golfers.
Spreading the golfers around all these courses means less money for everyone.
For the healthy private golf clubs to survive, the badly run ones need to be closed (whether privately or publicly owned).
This means that more loss making courses, whether privately owned like Turvey, council owned like Elmgreen and Corballis or NAMA courses like Citywest need to be taken out of the market.
The financially healthy courses currently face unfair competition from publicly financed (Council & NAMA) loss making courses whose main customers can afford to pay the reduced prices now widely available elsewhere.
Councillor Dennison is right – “the answer is no” to subsidising county council courses.

I don't agree with golf courses myself, its a waste of a good walk and they restrict access to the fingal coastline and pollute the environment with a dangerous cocktail of pesticides but do you seriously still think after your closure of clubs the council staff could be moved to the private clubs?

golfwallah

Corsendonk wrote: »

I don't agree with golf courses myself, its a waste of a good walk and they restrict access to the fingal coastline and pollute the environment with a dangerous cocktail of pesticides but do you seriously still think after your closure of clubs the council staff could be moved to the private clubs?

As things stand, the staff in well run private clubs are at risk of losing their jobs because of competition from subsidized council and NAMA courses.
Do you seriously think the council will give these people jobs, should their courses have to close?
Subsidies just reward bad management, encourage inefficiency and punish businesses that are trying to balance their books and play by normally accepted economic rules.

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

As things stand, the staff in well run private clubs are at risk of losing their jobs because of competition from subsidized council and NAMA courses.
Do you seriously think the council will give these people jobs, should their courses have to close?
Subsidies just reward bad management, encourage inefficiency and punish businesses that are trying to balance their books and play by normally accepted economic rules.

You didn't answer my question, so basically you want to close down the council ran courses, tell the staff their might be a prospect of jobs in the private golfing sector but in reality none exist. I can work out why you didn't want to answer my question.

Why do we have public golf courses in the first place? If the product from the private sector was so good.

golfwallah

Corsendonk wrote: »

You didn't answer my question, so basically you want to close down the council ran courses, tell the staff their might be a prospect of jobs in the private golfing sector but in reality none exist. I can work out why you didn't want to answer my question.

Why do we have public golf courses in the first place? If the product from the private sector was so good.

I acknowledge your concern about council golf course staff but that is what we are paying council management to handle, in consultation with the unions.
What I want as a taxpayer is to avoid subsidizing non-essential services such as council run golf courses. If the council can’t run such commercial activities profitably, they should close them down. As a member of an ordinary working person’s members owned golf club, I also want our club to survive the recession without our own staff layoffs, 3 day weeks or levies on members. It is extremely difficult to do just that when times are good and even more so in recession, competing with subsidised courses.
It’s Council management’s job to deal with the issues you raised, not people like me. It’s their responsible to direct staff resources towards essential activities that add value to the community. In a free economy, public bodies should not engage in subsidized competition with private enterprise so as to put private sector staff out of jobs.

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

I acknowledge your concern about council golf course staff but that is what we are paying council management to handle, in consultation with the unions.
What I want as a taxpayer is to avoid subsidizing non-essential services such as council run golf courses. If the council can’t run such commercial activities profitably, they should close them down. As a member of an ordinary working person’s members owned golf club, I also want our club to survive the recession without our own staff layoffs, 3 day weeks or levies on members. It is extremely difficult to do just that when times are good and even more so in recession, competing with subsidised courses.
It’s Council management’s job to deal with the issues you raised, not people like me. It’s their responsible to direct staff resources towards essential activities that add value to the community. In a free economy, public bodies should not engage in subsidized competition with private enterprise so as to put private sector staff out of jobs.

Ok now we get to the centre of your argument. Rightly you view the council golf courses as unfair competition. But why do we have council ran golf courses in the first place?? Because when times were good the private golf courses demanded exorbitant green fees or had huge waiting lists for new members. The council ran courses provided a venue for fair weather players who would dig the bags out for 10 hits a year. But now that we have a recession, the private clubs have to lower green fees and offer discount rates in your newly built restaurants to group parties to combat the decline in membership. What's to stop these working members clubs returning to their old ways when all the council golf courses are closed?

By the way talking about subsidising, the Common Agriculture Policy payments beneficiaries use to be freely available on Dept of Agri website and quite a few of them were private golf clubs.

golfwallah

“The Commission aims at ensuring that all European companies operate on a level-playing field, where competitive companies succeed. It ascertains that government interventions do not interfere with the smooth functioning of the internal market or harm the competitiveness of EU companies.”
An interesting one this, as I gather that fines of up to 10% of turnover can be imposed. With budgeted income of €106,063,600 for 2011, this could mean a fine of up to €10,606,360 for the council.
It would be an interesting development if someone were to lodge a complaint with the European Commission Competition Authority about this unfair competition by Fingal Co. Co.
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en.html
A Brief Guide to EU Competition Law
http://www.compecon.ie/EU.htm

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

“The Commission aims at ensuring that all European companies operate on a level-playing field, where competitive companies succeed. It ascertains that government interventions do not interfere with the smooth functioning of the internal market or harm the competitiveness of EU companies.”
An interesting one this, as I gather that fines of up to 10% of turnover can be imposed. With budgeted income of €106,063,600 for 2011, this could mean a fine of up to €10,606,360 for the council.
It would be an interesting development if someone were to lodge a complaint with the European Commission Competition Authority about this unfair competition by Fingal Co. Co.
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en.html
A Brief Guide to EU Competition Law
http://www.compecon.ie/EU.htm

Keep us updated on how you get on, I doubt they are the only council that do it so perhaps you can get the Golf Union of Ireland to help pay for your case. Best of Luck.

davidrafferty

Looks like FCC is about to lose the bin service in 2012:
http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/dday-in-council-bin-wars-2808396.html

Something is definitely amiss in FCC - they also need to subsidize their golf courses by amounts of €300,000 a year (looks like they are contravening the Competition Act 2002) and are incurring massive costs in running the library service (net €11m in 2011 with a pittance in charges).

Someone with a bit of clout needs to tell them how to stop wasting public money, in these tough economic times!

Definitely food for thought for Minister Brendan Howlin's project asking the public to identify areas for cost savings: http://per.gov.ie/comprehensive-review-of-expenditure/

golfwallah

According to Fingal County Council's 2011 Budget, they are planning to lose €4,783,000 (or 42%) on bin collection on an income of €11,389,500 this year.
A just published independent report on FCC bin collection service says this loss will jump to over €8m in 2012:
http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/collections-not-viable-2813808.html
They are subsidizing their golf courses by an estimated €600,000 in 2011 and library service by over €11m. I'm sure there are other areas of their vast budget that are also inefficiently run.
And their only defence seems to be that they are underfunded and "regrettably" have to bring in local taxes and water charges.
All this waste is a "kop out" for good management practices - propped up by hard pressed taxpayers!

Hauk

Don't see why we can't get the prisoners in Mountjoy cutting the grass around the motorways/dual carraigeways/painting gates/covering up graffiti.

We might as well get something back from them.

Corsendonk

Hauk wrote: »

Don't see why we can't get the prisoners in Mountjoy cutting the grass around the motorways/dual carraigeways/painting gates/covering up graffiti.

We might as well get something back from them.

Prison officers would want more money and the chain gangs in the US use leg irons and guards with guns to control them when out and about. Nothing is ever simple in Ireland.

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

According to Fingal County Council's 2011 Budget, they are planning to lose €4,783,000 (or 42%) on bin collection on an income of €11,389,500 this year.
A just published independent report on FCC bin collection service says this loss will jump to over €8m in 2012:
http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/collections-not-viable-2813808.html
They are subsidizing their golf courses by an estimated €600,000 in 2011 and library service by over €11m. I'm sure there are other areas of their vast budget that are also inefficiently run.
And their only defence seems to be that they are underfunded and "regrettably" have to bring in local taxes and water charges.
All this waste is a "kop out" for good management practices - propped up by hard pressed taxpayers!

Would you like to see the closer of the library service?

dsmythy

Corsendonk wrote: »

Would you like to see the closer of the library service?

I'd be interested in knowing what sort of usage the libraries have first.

golfwallah

The following figures come from Fingal County Council's website:
2011 Budget for Library Services:

Costs €11,803,300
No of Library Members 128,082 Cost per member €92.15
No of visits 1,020,398 Cost per visit €11.57
No of items borrowed 1,207,487 Cost per item borrowed €9.78

These costs are clearly out of control!
No, I'm not suggesting closing the libraries ....... only that the users should pay a bit more towards the running costs, which in turn should also be controlled better by management.
Bringing income up and cost down is a matter for FCC management, who seem to be content to merely report their costs and pass them onto the taxpayer as higher than necessary taxes.
A very poor show, if this is the best that highly paid professional managers can do in 2011?

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

The following figures come from Fingal County Council's website:
2011 Budget for Library Services:

Costs €11,803,300
No of Library Members 128,082 Cost per member €92.15
No of visits 1,020,398 Cost per visit €11.57
No of items borrowed 1,207,487 Cost per item borrowed €9.78

These costs are clearly out of control!
No, I'm not suggesting closing the libraries ....... only that the users should pay a bit more towards the running costs, which in turn should also be controlled better by management.
Bringing income up and cost down is a matter for FCC management, who seem to be content to merely report their costs and pass them onto the taxpayer as higher than necessary taxes.
A very poor show, if this is the best that highly paid professional managers can do in 2011?

Would you class yourself as a regular FCC library user? Most users from my observation as a regular user of a FCC ran library would be the young who after all we need to encourage to read to benefit our education system and economy, unemployed who make use of the internet service, people with special needs or pensioners. So should we increase late return penalties or impose usage charges on these vunerable areas of our society?

I am not defending the FCC library service as perfect, for a service provider the library closing at lunch time because all the staff take lunch at the same time is a joke in these modern times when they have more than enough staff to cover the lunchbreak. If they remained open during lunch the usage rate would increase. The council also spends a substantial amount on books each year which could be suplimented by asking for the donation of good quality books from users.

The fact is that libraries don't make money and arn't considered an essential service thats why councils in the UK are closing libraries in the UK over the last year as they are seen as a soft target.

golfwallah

Fingal Co. Co. can't run a bin service without losing €8m a year.
They can't run golf courses without losing €600,000 a year and making it almost impossible for properly run private facilities to survive.
They can't run a library service without clocking up massive losses of €11m a year.
This country is facing financial ruin and it is the duty of those senior people in public office to find ways of saving money without always screwing the taxpayer ...... many of whom are on fixed income and vulnerable members of society.
If the present senior management in organisations such as Fingal County Council are incapable of doing their duty, they should be removed from office and replaced by people who aren't afraid to do the job.

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

Fingal Co. Co. can't run a bin service without losing €8m a year.
They can't run golf courses without losing €600,000 a year and making it almost impossible for properly run private facilities to survive.
They can't run a library service without clocking up massive losses of €11m a year.
This country is facing financial ruin and it is the duty of those senior people in public office to find ways of saving money without always screwing the taxpayer ...... many of whom are on fixed income and vulnerable members of society.
If the present senior management in organisations such as Fingal County Council are incapable of doing their duty, they should be removed from office and replaced by people who aren't afraid to do the job.

Your not really answering my question just repeating your posts :rolleyes: What councillors did you email with your concerns about poor management by senior management? And what were their responses to your concerns?

golfwallah

Emailing councillors to cut costs is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.
I've stated my position which is a desire for lower taxes and for highly paid officials to do their job.
The better course of action is to put cost cutting proposals to Brendan Howlin's Public Consultation Process.

Corsendonk

golfwallah wrote: »

The better course of action is to put cost cutting proposals to Brendan Howlin's Public Consultation Process.

Have you done that? Is it easy to do?

I've stated my position which is a desire for lower taxes and for highly paid officials to do their job.

Couldn't agree more with you especially all those guys from the public sector that go golfing on our time or the HSE health inspectors with its ladies golfing circuit on Friday afternoons on our time. Ironically most of the inefficient public sector blatant staff abuses involve staff slinking off to a golf course to "network". I wonder will they bother to renew their memberships at all the private clubs when there golfing time is limited.

golfwallah

Minister Brendan Howlin's project asking the public to identify areas for cost savings: http://per.gov.ie/comprehensive-review-of-expenditure/