legalising prostitution?

celtictiger32

we all know the economy is in rag order as we speak with cutbacks here, there and everywhere happening and probably more to come.

we all know prostitution goes on, and most know its a thriving industry recession or otherwise.

i am of the opinion that this should be legalised, there obviously would have to be a regulatory system put in place amongst other things, but i believe it would go a long way to restoring our economy to brighter days. i think we as a nation need to make radical changes like these to improve the well being of our country. i travelled to germany last year and these places were all over the city centre and were a hive of activity both day and night. i imagine the tax that would come from places like these would be astronomical. and lets face it the germans are no slouches when it comes to finance.

so anyway what do people think??

goose2005

definitely. At heart it's just an unpleasant, somewhat dangerous job - except, unlike gutting fish or wading through sewers, it pays extremely well.

beeftotheheels

celtictiger32 wrote: »

we all know the economy is in rag order as we speak with cutbacks here, there and everywhere happening and probably more to come.

we all know prostitution goes on, and most know its a thriving industry recession or otherwise.

i am of the opinion that this should be legalised, there obviously would have to be a regulatory system put in place amongst other things, but i believe it would go a long way to restoring our economy to brighter days. i think we as a nation need to make radical changes like these to improve the well being of our country. i travelled to germany last year and these places were all over the city centre and were a hive of activity both day and night. i imagine the tax that would come from places like these would be astronomical. and lets face it the germans are no slouches when it comes to finance.

so anyway what do people think??

As a starting point I have to say that I very much doubt that the tax take from prostitution would fill the hole in our government coffers, or come anywhere close. If Revenue could find them they can tax the earnings under current law. Miss Whiplash took a case in the UK and the courts ruled that despite the source of her earnings being illegal, the earnings themselves were taxable.

That said, there are arguments for legalizing it, not least to afford prostitutes the protection of the law which they can be denied by engaging in illegal activities.

But, you didn't start the thread asking for a discussion on the social benefits to legalizing prostitution, you asked about the fiscal benefits, which would be marginal.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

it's already legal...

Royal Irish

It would be good to see it legalized but I think it would be very hard to regulate, and I dont think the previous, or current government would be able to implement something like this.

I also we should have a racidal change in some laws here. Weed should be legal, prostitution should be legal, the government should take control of the vintners assocation and force them to lower the price of alcohol across the board. Put pressure on hoteliers to lower prices and put in laws to stop them price gouging so much while some event is on. Tourism in Ireland sucks and its something that I think would really help the country in the long term.

Royal Irish

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

it's already legal...

No its not.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is not illegal in the Republic of Ireland, but most activities associated with it (such as soliciting in a public place, operating brothels and other forms of pimping) are illegal. Female ‘escort’ prostitution is widespread in Irish cities.

that took all of 4 seconds.

celtictiger32

beeftotheheels wrote: »

As a starting point I have to say that I very much doubt that the tax take from prostitution would fill the hole in our government coffers, or come anywhere close. If Revenue could find them they can tax the earnings under current law. Miss Whiplash took a case in the UK and the courts ruled that despite the source of her earnings being illegal, the earnings themselves were taxable.

That said, there are arguments for legalizing it, not least to afford prostitutes the protection of the law which they can be denied by engaging in illegal activities.

But, you didn't start the thread asking for a discussion on the social benefits to legalizing prostitution, you asked about the fiscal benefits, which would be marginal.

the social benefits are there to be discussed aswell by all means. im not saying that this one industry would solve of problems, but i do believe it would take in substantial revenue to put a dent in the current debt. i honestly dont believe the people dont know how widespread this is. when i travelled to this german city the main centre for these buildings were concentrated in one area but still had a lot more dotted around the city, now i believe this particular city was nothing in comparison to some of the others. you mentioned finding the prostitutes in your post. well as far as im aware with the german system you wouldnt have to in a sense. ive looked this up the centres they use are called 'eros' centres, from what i know they are like big apartment blocks and the rooms are rented out to the prostitutes, so maybe the owner of these centres could be taxed?.. obviously the powers that be would do a lot greater research than i ever could and possibly find the perfect taxable method.

celtictiger32

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland



that took all of 4 seconds.

thats all well and good but how much revenue is taken in from prostitution in this country? what im saying is and i apologise for returning to the german example again as i see it as the perfect one. but if we had a simillar system where it was all on the table(excuse the pun) and there was designated buildings or whatever, and everything other than these places were made illegal than this industry could be regulated and made to be a profitable industry for revenue

Royal Irish

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland



that took all of 4 seconds.

I didnt know it was legal in Ireland. Could you show me another, maybe even more credible link about this other than Wiki? Just to make sure.

I have been with a good few escorts, and I have met all of them advertised online, which is illegal according to your link. According to your link, am actually going to have to meet a escort just by chance, not knowing she is a escort, ride her, then her ask me for money. :rolleyes:

Pride Fighter

Prostitution is generally done by abused, trafficked people and is a horrible industry in Ireland IMO. Legalising weed would be better IMO.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Advertising in print publications is illegal, but a very developed Internet advertising medium exists

it'd help if you read the link before posting

Royal Irish

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

it'd help if you read the link before posting

I did read it, and what you quoted doesnt say anything about advertising online being legal :rolleyes:

celtictiger32

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Prostitution is generally done by abused, trafficked people and is a horrible industry in Ireland IMO. Legalising weed would be better IMO.

thats probably the exact image that would be changed imo. if everything were above board and done as mentioned above. everyone working there would probably be screened etc to ensure they were there of their own free will. i actually agree with the weed bit aswell i was going to include that into the thread but its probably been done to death. my own personal view is that the head shops that were around the city not so long ago should be all regulated and allowed to operate aswell. while i dont smoke weed or partake in any of the head shop offerings i do believe it was another good revenue source aswell as taking it all off the street corner and out of the hands of the dealers. in addition i think the pub opening hours should be extended. the amount of tourists put off coming to dublin for the weekend because our archaeic laws close evrywhere at 2.30 is unbelievable. doing this would also stop the large congregation on streets at this time and generally reducing anti social behaviour, as well as helping the public transport there would never be a problem i.e. getting a taxi plus taxi drivers would get work through the night and not just a rush hour period when the pubs close.

Royal Irish

Going from what I heard about the side effects from some of the stuff on offer from head shops, I would have disagree with your post.

The only thing regarding drugs, that I think should be legalised is good natural grown in Ireland weed. Another thing worth pointing out that alot of illegal hash in Europe comes from Afghanistan and funds the taliban, so that alone should be enough reason to legalise the growing and use of weed in Ireland (in my opinion anyway)

Prostitution is such a grey area, that alot of people dont know what is legal or illegal about it, and its probably one of the hardest things to police. If you look at a escorts website, sometimes you will see a disclaimer saying, money given to this escort is for time spent together, and anything that happens is between two consenting adults.

Seloth

Royal Irish wrote: »

No its not.

I'm sorry hah but http://chronic-dev.org/files/pwned.jpg

Royal Irish

Seloth wrote: »

I'm sorry hah but http://chronic-dev.org/files/pwned.jpg

Very intelligent and thought prevoking reply. Good on you sir.

celtictiger32

Royal Irish wrote: »

Going from what I heard about the side effects from some of the stuff on offer from head shops, I would have disagree with your post.

The only thing regarding drugs, that I think should be legalised is good natural grown in Ireland weed. Another thing worth pointing out that alot of illegal hash in Europe comes from Afghanistan and funds the taliban, so that alone should be enough reason to legalise the growing and use of weed in Ireland (in my opinion anyway)

Prostitution is such a grey area, that alot of people dont know what is legal or illegal about it, and its probably one of the hardest things to police. If you look at a escorts website, sometimes you will see a disclaimer saying, money given to this escort is for time spent together, and anything that happens is between two consenting adults.

agreed but i do think if that was regulated properly too it should be researched and tested. anyway to get back on topic also agreed it is a grey area and it is hard to police but i still feel if it were done similar to germany it would bring a lot of the underground side of it into the open and a lot easier to police as a legitimate industry

beeftotheheels

celtictiger32 wrote: »

anyway to get back on topic also agreed it is a grey area and it is hard to police but i still feel if it were done similar to germany it would bring a lot of the underground side of it into the open and a lot easier to police as a legitimate industry

There are obvious merits to legalizing it (by legalizing it I am referring to legalizing the entire industry rather than continuing the status quo of making the actual act legal while rendering every element around that act illegal). Allowing the women involved in that industry operate freely means they can claim the protection afforded to them by law. It facilitates health workers having access to them. It facilitates the collection of revenues.

But it is not a magic wand, it will not stop the exploitation of women, it will not stop the trafficking of women.

Say we legalize brothels tomorrow. The prostitutes working in those brothels get rights. They get the right to a certain minimum wage for their (unsavory) work. The black market will still exist. Organized gangs will continue to traffic women from where ever, to undercut that entitlement to minimum wage. The trafficked woman works for free to pay off "her debt", the prostitute with rights and no fear of prosecution, will put a floor on what she is prepared to work for.

The hope would be that if we legalize prostitution, if we destigmatize it, then the rational consumer of prostitution will favor the legal brothel over the illegal one.

I personally think it a risk worth taking. But it is a risk. No one wants their daughter to have the ambition of being a prostitute. While some high class escorts may "decide" on their profession, it is a "profession" which puts women at risk (and while I say women, clearly prostitutes of any gender are at risk and should be afforded similar protections).

It just strikes me that the more we push it underground, the less chance we have of protecting the vulnerable engaged in this profession. But I acknowledge that legalizing it is a risk.

celtictiger32

beeftotheheels wrote: »

There are obvious merits to legalizing it (by legalizing it I am referring to legalizing the entire industry rather than continuing the status quo of making the actual act legal while rendering every element around that act illegal). Allowing the women involved in that industry operate freely means they can claim the protection afforded to them by law. It facilitates health workers having access to them. It facilitates the collection of revenues.

But it is not a magic wand, it will not stop the exploitation of women, it will not stop the trafficking of women.

Say we legalize brothels tomorrow. The prostitutes working in those brothels get rights. They get the right to a certain minimum wage for their (unsavory) work. The black market will still exist. Organized gangs will continue to traffic women from where ever, to undercut that entitlement to minimum wage. The trafficked woman works for free to pay off "her debt", the prostitute with rights and no fear of prosecution, will put a floor on what she is prepared to work for.

The hope would be that if we legalize prostitution, if we destigmatize it, then the rational consumer of prostitution will favor the legal brothel over the illegal one.

I personally think it a risk worth taking. But it is a risk. No one wants their daughter to have the ambition of being a prostitute. While some high class escorts may "decide" on their profession, it is a "profession" which puts women at risk (and while I say women, clearly prostitutes of any gender are at risk and should be afforded similar protections).

It just strikes me that the more we push it underground, the less chance we have of protecting the vulnerable engaged in this profession. But I acknowledge that legalizing it is a risk.

the hope would be that the trafficking of women would at the very least be severely reduced and that as i said the women who work there would be from personal choice. im sure that even in germany there are a few flaws in the system but it just seems like theres a well of revenue there not being tapped into. you'll always get the holy joes who wont accept changes like these but theyre usually the same people who would close the pubs down given the chance. get it all out in the open and put it down to personal choice if people want to use the service, and hopefully force a few less cuts in the budgets for the rest

Dandelion6

I don't really agree with legalisation because the problem is it creates a two-tier system where people working in the legal industry are generally well-protected, but those outside it - and there will always be those outside it, people who have drug problems or mental health problems or immigration problems or just don't want to get caught up in the inevitable bureaucracy - continue to face the same risks that exist when it's criminalised. These are usually the most vulnerable ones and legalisation does very little for them.

I think a better answer is decriminalisation, where nobody will face charges for consensual prostitution, those who have problems can come forward without fear of arrest and those who are doing ok can just get on with it.

There is a lot of talk these days about the Nordic model (where the buyers are criminalised and the sellers aren't). Very little of what we hear about this model reflects the views of those working in the sex industry, which from what I can tell are almost uniformly negative. There seems to be very little hard evidence backing up the claims that it has reduced prostitution, and a lot of the women involved in the industry saying it has only increased their risks.

caseyann

Articles speak louder than words in this case.
So i just say no and anyone involved in buying it or controling it should be charged.
We could follow sweden and make it illegal and sooner the better.
The logic of making it legal is a bad idea.It wont stop illegal trafficking of women either.

Delegates attending the first day of the annual conference of the Irish Medical Organisation in Killarney, Co Kerry, said this would be an important step in tackling the trafficking of illegal immigrants for the sex trade.

Public health specialist Dr Fenton Howell said Ruhama, the Dublin based group that works with women involved in prostitution, had called earlier this year for Ireland to adopt the Swedish model whereby men are prosecuted for buying sex and he agreed with their stance.

“In Sweden where that has happened for the last 10 years it’s reduced the level of prostitution and the illegal importation of women,” he said. Dr Howell said “something like 90 per cent of the indoor sex trade is being done by illegal immigrants” and it was “literally slave trade again” and it was very lucrative for those running it.
One of the deterrents is if you can actually charge the men . . . if they know they’re going to be charged then it’s a deterrent right across the board.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0429/1224295674439.html

And weed out the likes of these horrible people and make so they can never make money or terrorize women or anyone else again.
A WOMAN has been remanded in custody after she was charged yesterday with running a brothel.

Charity Ajayioba (35), a failed asylum seeker from Nigeria, who is of no fixed abode, appeared at Dublin District Court yesterday charged under section 11 of the Criminal Law Sexual Offences Act for organising, directing and running a brothel, at Rathbraughan Park, Sligo, on March 22nd, 2007.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0429/1224295673574.html

Mr McKenzie made an application for legal aid to be granted to his client. He informed the judge that she had a deportation order pending against her and that she was a failed asylum seeker.

She was one of 40 people, including a garda stationed in the west of Ireland, arrested.
Over 120 people were interviewed as part of the operation and 11 victims were identified and rescued.

The Garda is suspected of having provided falsified documentation which enabled a woman to remain illegally in the country.

The court heard this morning that substantial amounts of money had passed through the 35-year-old woman's bank account, which she no longer had access to.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0428/brothel.html

Dandelion6

caseyann wrote: »

The logic of making it legal is a bad idea.It wont stop illegal trafficking of women either.

Neither will making it illegal. There is trafficking of women (and men) in many countries where it is illegal. Including Sweden.

Ruhama, the Dublin based group that works with women involved in prostitution

The founders and trustees of which are two of the orders who ran the Magdalene Laundries. Why would anyone trust them to work with vulnerable women? Why is the state (that is, you and me) giving them money to do so?

“In Sweden where that has happened for the last 10 years it’s reduced the level of prostitution and the illegal importation of women,” he said.

Again, no evidence of this. There's evidence only that it's reduced the level of street prostitution but that's only a tiny amount of the sex trade anyway.

Dr Howell said “something like 90 per cent of the indoor sex trade is being done by illegal immigrants”

No evidence of this either. Pure conjecture.

Dandelion6

Irish sex workers respond to the IMO motion

RandolphEsq

On the issue of escorts being legal, it is a grey area. What you are paying for is the time with the girl. What happens during that time apparently just 'happens' and obviously it is not illegal to have sex so it just 'happens' that you have sex with her during the time period for which you paid to be in her company.

jakdelad

ah yes that dreaded grey area again

the govt been screwing us for years and years
and with no protection [for us]

celtictiger32

imo the illegal trafficking of women for the sex trade will probably always happen, if you push this trade underground itll probably just make the situation worse and easier to have these 'illegals' put to work so to speak. i just think that if it were structured and regulated that the demand -for want of a better word- for illegal trafficking would decrease, the women working in the industry would get proper screening and health checks, and the tax revenue would put a hole in the country's debt and go towards getting this country back on its feet

beeftotheheels

celtictiger32 wrote: »

imo the illegal trafficking of women for the sex trade will probably always happen, if you push this trade underground itll probably just make the situation worse and easier to have these 'illegals' put to work so to speak. i just think that if it were structured and regulated that the demand -for want of a better word- for illegal trafficking would decrease, the women working in the industry would get proper screening and health checks, and the tax revenue would put a hole in the country's debt and go towards getting this country back on its feet

I think this is problematic to prove even though it certainly appeals to liberal thinking and logic.

In relation to the trafficking of women I don't think it will have much of an impact. This is largely done by international criminal organizations.

Lets say ten Irish girls set up a brothel together. They charge each punter €40, and after paying rent, security etc they end up with €25 per hour. They may well be better off in terms of security, comfort etc with the key difference being that they run the brothel.

It is probably more likely that there will be a brothel keeper (aka pimp) who picks up the costs of running the brothel and who takes a cut of earnings, but if it is legal, free market economics kicks in, and the prostitutes can form a union or do whatever to put a floor on what they are paid.

The problem here is that many prostitutes have addictions, they won't necessarily behave rationally and may undercut each other trying to fund their addictions. Minimum wage won't help if the prostitute is self employed and the issue is the amount of expenses that the brothel keeper is charging.

The trafficked worker works for free, so no disincentive to traffickers there at all.

Why am I in favor of legalizing and regulating it? The status quo is not working. Prostitution has existed since the dawn of time, rendering it illegal has not worked.

Legalizing it does allow for things which don't currently exist. It allows women with a few savings set up a legitimate business, hire security etc. Any prostitutes working in a legal brothel have to be safer than those plying their trade on the streets. It may allow legitimate business people operate brothels, or indeed do-gooder wet liberals operate brothels which improve working conditions for the girls.

But there is a school of thought that part of what drives some men to use prostitutes is the illicit nature of it all (Hugh Grant anyone?). So demand for illegal street hookers will remain.

Trafficking will remain.

I don't see many upsides to the status quo, I don't think making it legal will cause anyone to change their opinion that it is fundamentally a bad thing.

I see (albeit limited) upsides to legalizing it in terms of creating opportunities for some women to work in safer environments, in terms of being able to gather data on the industry, in terms of giving the workers the rights and protections under the law.

I see limited downside to making it legal. If we see no benefits after 5 years we can always render it illegal again. I doubt any young girl will have said in the interim "Oh look, prostitution is now legal so I no longer want to be an air stewardess, I now want to be a prostitute". I doubt any otherwise happily married man is going to say "Oh look, prostitution is now legal so I think I'll have sex with a prostitute". The social stigma attached to the profession will remain.

I just don't think it is a magic wand, by definition we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable members of society, by legalizing it we can hope to help a few more, but I wouldn't hold out much hope that it will help all that many.

celtictiger32

The problem here is that many prostitutes have addictions, they won't necessarily behave rationally and may undercut each other trying to fund their addictions.

along with regulation, should come health checks and tests to curb addictions

Why am I in favor of legalizing and regulating it? The status quo is not working. Prostitution has existed since the dawn of time, rendering it illegal has not worked.

'the oldest profession in the world' as its known will probably always be around so why not change it, try to clean it up and gain financial benefits for the country.

But there is a school of thought that part of what drives some men to use prostitutes is the illicit nature of it all (Hugh Grant anyone?). So demand for illegal street hookers will remain.

i disagree, if people had the choice to go to a lets say safe, regulated, screened enviroment i think that would appeal to a lot more people, plus maybe more stringent laws for the ones that dont conform and stay on the streets.

Trafficking will remain.

as i said i think trafficking will always be there whether it be for the sex industry or otherwise but i do think it would be substantially reduced which has to be a good thing.

I don't see many upsides to the status quo, I don't think making it legal will cause anyone to change their opinion that it is fundamentally a bad thing.
The social stigma attached to the profession will remain.

yes there is a social stigma but would this not phase out over time if it were brought above ground. remeber there was a social stigma attached to being gay once upon a time in this country amongst other things. i remember sitting at a beer garden in germany there was one of these 'eros' centres a few doors up. and imo demand or social stigma wouldnt be a problem the amount of businessmen etc 'dropping in' on the way home from work was astounding.

jumpin jaysus

i think it should be legalised. girls are happier working in a safer enviroment. men who go are happier because of same. and country is better off with another source of income. cant see a downside tbh

celtictiger32

jumpin jaysus wrote: »

i think it should be legalised. girls are happier working in a safer enviroment. men who go are happier because of same. and country is better off with another source of income. cant see a downside tbh

most of the downsides are already there and only stand to be improved with legalisation. i know most see it as a sleazy underground industry and tbh theres not a lot there toargue against that but if done right i do think as i said it would be a booming industry that will help the country with much needed revenue. and extra tourists id imagine aswell

BrianD

beeftotheheels wrote: »

The hope would be that if we legalize prostitution, if we destigmatize it, then the rational consumer of prostitution will favor the legal brothel over the illegal one.

Therein lies the problem - it will never be destigmatised. I don't know of any society where prostitution is considered a normal service in everyday life. We may accept that exists and keep it at arms length but never destigmatised. The rational consumer of prostitution has already rationalised his (and her?) decision to use the services of a prostitute and probably won't care about the credentials of a brothel or the immigration or working status of the women there. Most people who make a rational decision to eat in a restaurant do not factor in the pay and conditions of the staff working there.

I don't know of any country where the legalising or part-legalising of prostitution has made benefited the sex workers. Those who profit from them seem to do well.

celtictiger32

BrianD wrote: »

Therein lies the problem - it will never be destigmatised. I don't know of any society where prostitution is considered a normal service in everyday life. We may accept that exists and keep it at arms length but never destigmatised. The rational consumer of prostitution has already rationalised his (and her?) decision to use the services of a prostitute and probably won't care about the credentials of a brothel or the immigration or working status of the women there. Most people who make a rational decision to eat in a restaurant do not factor in the pay and conditions of the staff working there.

I don't know of any country where the legalising or part-legalising of prostitution has made benefited the sex workers. Those who profit from them seem to do well.

i dont know i think given time as a legitimate business the stigma would gradually wear down, as ive mentioned look at the stigma attached to being gay in this country for so long and its still there to a certain extent but nothing near what it was. and in using germany as an example again it is seen as a normal service in everyday life. the centres were dotted all over the city and i believe more so in other cities

Dandelion6

BrianD wrote: »

I don't know of any country where the legalising or part-legalising of prostitution has made benefited the sex workers.

New Zealand decriminalised/part-legalised it in 2003 and carried out a review five years later, which included extensive qualitative and quantitative research into the views of sex workers. A clear view emerged from the report that sex workers believe they have benefited. That's not the same as saying it's destigmatised as a profession, but there are benefits other than destigmatisation.

I don't know of any country where criminalisation or part-criminalisation has benefited them.

Those who profit from them seem to do well.

There are plenty of sex workers operating independently. Don't assume they all have pimps. Decriminalisation actually makes it easier for them to work for themselves, by removing the need for a middleman.

BrianD

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i dont know i think given time as a legitimate business the stigma would gradually wear down, as ive mentioned look at the stigma attached to being gay in this country for so long and its still there to a certain extent but nothing near what it was. and in using germany as an example again it is seen as a normal service in everyday life. the centres were dotted all over the city and i believe more so in other cities

I could not agree. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and I see no widespread acceptance of it in any culture or society.

Prostitution is still very much stigmatised in Germany. 63% of sex workers are foreign (so it's not a career that local women are pursuing despite it being legal). Human trafficing of women for the sex trade has increased. There are no mandatory health checks whatsoever in Germany. The only real beneficiaries are the people who control the sex trade who can operate overtly and the government who get taxes from whatever the industry declares as income. Denmark is event worse

The bottom line is that there are very few women (or men) who enter prostitution voluntarily. Most are desparate for one reason or another and are easily exploited as a result.

celtictiger32

BrianD wrote: »

I could not agree. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and I see no widespread acceptance of it in any culture or society.

Prostitution is still very much stigmatised in Germany. 63% of sex workers are foreign (so it's not a career that local women are pursuing despite it being legal). Human trafficing of women for the sex trade has increased. There are no mandatory health checks whatsoever in Germany. The only real beneficiaries are the people who control the sex trade who can operate overtly and the government who get taxes from whatever the industry declares as income. Denmark is event worse

The bottom line is that there are very few women (or men) who enter prostitution voluntarily. Most are desparate for one reason or another and are easily exploited as a result.

im not saying its going to come out of it squeaky clean, but i do think if its legalised it will become gradually more acceptable. there was a big furore over lap dancing clubs when they first arrived in dublin and they have gradually become less and less stigmatised. and through my own job i know first hand they are doing a roaring trade. and besides if some people wish the stigma to remain so what, if its bringing revenue into the countrys coffers. if others countrys have flaws in their systems why not learn from them and try to improve our own. btw i know its documented that there are no mandatory health checks in germany but im fairly sure theres something in place to that effect maybe its on a council level or something

syklops

BrianD wrote: »

Therein lies the problem - it will never be destigmatised. I don't know of any society where prostitution is considered a normal service in everyday life. We may accept that exists and keep it at arms length but never destigmatised. The rational consumer of prostitution has already rationalised his (and her?) decision to use the services of a prostitute and probably won't care about the credentials of a brothel or the immigration or working status of the women there. Most people who make a rational decision to eat in a restaurant do not factor in the pay and conditions of the staff working there.

I don't know of any country where the legalising or part-legalising of prostitution has made benefited the sex workers. Those who profit from them seem to do well.

Have to disagree there. Here in the czech republic, one of the most liberal countries in this part of the world, sex is a part of life, and prostitutes advertise their services in the czech version of the Buy and Sell among other news papers and online media.

syklops

syklops wrote: »

Have to disagree there. Here in the czech republic, one of the most liberal countries in this part of the world, sex is a part of life, and prostitutes advertise their services in the czech version of the Buy and Sell among other news papers and online media.

But if you were in conversation with someone and they told you they worked full time as a prostitute and they were just exhausted after that days work how would you react?

Compare that with how you would react to the same comment from a doctor or a carpenter.

If the comparison is negative in any way then there remains a stigma.

syklops

Deleted User wrote: »

But if you were in conversation with someone and they told you they worked full time as a prostitute and they were just exhausted after that days work how would you react?

Compare that with how you would react to the same comment from a doctor or a carpenter.

If the comparison is negative in any way then there remains a stigma.

I would react in surprise, because I am irish and as we know sex only arrived in Ireland in the last few years. To your average czech there would be no shock or surprise.

Its not the prostitutes fault I have a backward grounding in sex.

celtictiger32

Deleted User wrote: »

But if you were in conversation with someone and they told you they worked full time as a prostitute and they were just exhausted after that days work how would you react?

Compare that with how you would react to the same comment from a doctor or a carpenter.

If the comparison is negative in any way then there remains a stigma.

there will always be a stigma held by some people, i dont think anyone disagrees with that but imo it will be less and less as time goes on. sure theres still a stigma attached to lap dancing and even drinking ffs, it just goes to show how backward some people think.

Dandelion6

BrianD wrote: »

63% of sex workers are foreign (so it's not a career that local women are pursuing despite it being legal).

Do you have a source for that statistic? Does it include all sex workers (including those operating independently from the internet etc) or only those in the managed sector? In any case 37% is still a lot of women.

Human trafficing of women for the sex trade has increased.

Trafficking statistics are inherently suspect, the nature of it is that it's impossible to measure accurately. Supporters of abolition always claim that it increases where prostitution is legal but they never take into account the possibility that it might simply be more difficult to detect where sex work itself is driven completely underground.

There are no mandatory health checks whatsoever in Germany.

Mandatory health checks accomplish very little anyway. The best way to ensure sexual health of sex workers is to make sure they have access to condoms and that they feel able to refuse unsafe sex. This cannot happen where their work itself is criminalised.

The only real beneficiaries are the people who control the sex trade who can operate overtly and the government who get taxes

Have you asked whether the sex workers consider themselves to be benefiting? Presumably they could go work somewhere that it's illegal if they think they'd be better off there.

The bottom line is that there are very few women (or men) who enter prostitution voluntarily. Most are desparate for one reason or another

Again, if you actually took the time to look into what sex workers themselves have to say, you would find that there is a wide variety in the reason they entered the industry and the extent of the choices that they had. It is very far from the case that most entered out of desperation or lack of any other option - particularly when you stop focusing on the streets and the managed sector and look at those operating online and independently.

Of course you also ignore that there are a lot of desperate people in a lot of other low-status jobs, and nobody suggests the best way to fix their problems is to criminalise their work.

and are easily exploited as a result

They're more easily exploited when they have no labour rights. As any worker would be.

BrianD

syklops wrote: »

Have to disagree there. Here in the czech republic, one of the most liberal countries in this part of the world, sex is a part of life, and prostitutes advertise their services in the czech version of the Buy and Sell among other news papers and online media.

So what? It's been done for years here. A well known Dublin magazine was practically funded by glossy colour adverts in the back pages, plenty of the advert magazines have almost overt adverts for prostitution.

I've been to Prague a number of times and while there is evidence of the sex trade it's no more than any other European city. It's hardly high street stuff and you have to be looking for it. Less of course you walk down that street between Wensalas Square and the old town where you are constantly approached by seemingly ordinary women offering their services. Hardly a sign of prostitution being a normal part of everyday life.

BrianD

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Do you have a source for that statistic? Does it include all sex workers (including those operating independently from the internet etc) or only those in the managed sector? In any case 37% is still a lot of women.

Researched it on Wikipedia

Trafficking statistics are inherently suspect, the nature of it is that it's impossible to measure accurately. Supporters of abolition always claim that it increases where prostitution is legal but they never take into account the possibility that it might simply be more difficult to detect where sex work itself is driven completely underground.

You're engaging in spin here. Really, you are.

Mandatory health checks accomplish very little anyway. The best way to ensure sexual health of sex workers is to make sure they have access to condoms and that they feel able to refuse unsafe sex. This cannot happen where their work itself is criminalised.

So why does the leaglise prostitution lobby constantly trot out the safer working environment and health care checks arguement? I would imagine that even in a legalised environment that there will always be clients who will pay more for unsafe forms of sex and there will always be prostitutes who will have no choice but to accept - either by order or through desparation.

Have you asked whether the sex workers consider themselves to be benefiting? Presumably they could go work somewhere that it's illegal if they think they'd be better off there. Again, if you actually took the time to look into what sex workers themselves have to say, you would find that there is a wide variety in the reason they entered the industry and the extent of the choices that they had. It is very far from the case that most entered out of desperation or lack of any other option - particularly when you stop focusing on the streets and the managed sector and look at those operating online and independently.

No I haven't. There are very few people who go into prostitution voluntarily. We hear about the Belle De Jour stories but lets face it that's the exception. Most women are in prostitution because they have no other options but sell their body. There can be a whole range of reasons for this - addiction, poverty, lack of education ...

I think you are deluding yourself if you believe that the majority of women entered the industry by choice. That is simply not the case.

Of course you also ignore that there are a lot of desperate people in a lot of other low-status jobs, and nobody suggests the best way to fix their problems is to criminalise their work.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Please explain further.

They're more easily exploited when they have no labour rights. As any worker would be.

Again what is your point here?

syklops

BrianD wrote: »

So what? It's been done for years here. A well known Dublin magazine was practically funded by glossy colour adverts in the back pages, plenty of the advert magazines have almost overt adverts for prostitution.

I've been to Prague a number of times and while there is evidence of the sex trade it's no more than any other European city. It's hardly high street stuff and you have to be looking for it. Less of course you walk down that street between Wensalas Square and the old town where you are constantly approached by seemingly ordinary women offering their services. Hardly a sign of prostitution being a normal part of everyday life.

Many Czechs would say there is very little normal life in Prague. Down here in south Moravia, there are quite different attitudes to a number of things, including sex. Of the married Czechs I know, extra-marital affairs are not even common they are the norm in many cases.

A friend of mine is an english teacher, and he asked the kids in his class to bring in pictures of their family to talk about them. He was amazed at the number who brought in pictures of the family with extra adults included. When he asked them who the additional people were, expecting them to say its their aunts and uncles, they said "Thats my mothers lover, and that's my farthers lover.

Now I know BrianD is going to say "big deal, we have affairs in Ireland too", but in Ireland, they are hushed up, and swept under the carpet, here they are the norm. So too is the sex trade. I know several men, who have not managed to find a regular lover yet, and so hire girls for an evening or for a few days. They are not shunned by the community. There is no pointing and whispering when they are around. I don't know how normal it needs to be before you consider it normal, but it seems pretty normal here.

They're more easily exploited when they have no labour rights. As any worker would be.

Again what is your point here?

I think his point is, when you make something illegal you push it underground. Once it is underground, the normal rights and laws that an employee has go out the window and they are then at the discretion of which ever gangster is running them. Even if they worked independently, once it is made illegal there is little stopping people setting up racketeering of sex workers where they must pay half their proceeds or be reported and face prison.

Voodoo_rasher

could it be you are saying this because you like using them, and don't want the inconvenience of travelling to Germany for that 'service'

BrianD

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

could it be you are saying this because you like using them, and don't want the inconvenience of travelling to Germany for that 'service'

Who is this comment directed at?

@syklops I'm really sorry but I'm finding it hard to believe anything your post regarding normal domestic life in the Czech republic. I really am.

It seems to me that dealing with the 'oldest profession' is that no society or culture will accept will accept prostitution as a normal everyday activity. None, including Germany or the wild west that seems now to be the Czech republic.

Legalisation hasn't really worked in other countries and it's nothing more than a recognition of a certain level of tolerance which is usually very small that society will allow.

Crimalisation is another matter and I think in this country we have an inequitable situation where the supplier but not the customer seems to be penalised. It's a business that's driven by demand and really the penalties should be on the demand side.

syklops

Well I am not making it up and I am not lying. If you dont believe it then fine. No skin off my nose.

Finnbar01

Royal Irish wrote: »

I didnt know it was legal in Ireland. Could you show me another, maybe even more credible link about this other than Wiki? Just to make sure.

I have been with a good few escorts, and I have met all of them advertised online, which is illegal according to your link. According to your link, am actually going to have to meet a escort just by chance, not knowing she is a escort, ride her, then her ask me for money. :rolleyes:

Here's an article from the independent going back to 2006.

There's nothing wrong with a fella and a lady having sex for money, they're consenting adults and if they want to pay for it they pay for it," Det Super McKeon said. And it's not an offence to visit a brothel. "You can ask him (a client) his name and address - it is an offence not to give it - but it's a funny bit of legislation because if he refuses or gives a false address there's nothing you can do about it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/red-lights-big-city----just-four-families-run-vice-ring-in-capital-111389.html

Dandelion6

BrianD wrote: »

Researched it on Wikipedia

Wikipedia is no more a cite than "someone said it to me in the pub last night". I could go change that figure to 2% now. Sorry you'll have to do better than that.

You're engaging in spin here. Really, you are.

Can you address the substance of the point I made?

So why does the leaglise prostitution lobby constantly trot out the safer working environment and health care checks arguement?

You'll have to ask the legalise prostitution lobby that question. As I've already said, I favour decriminalisation, not legalisation.

I would imagine that even in a legalised environment that there will always be clients who will pay more for unsafe forms of sex and there will always be prostitutes who will have no choice but to accept - either by order or through desparation.

In New Zealand and at least some parts of Australia this is illegal. I'm sure it doesn't stop it happening, but one of the reasons that New Zealand sex workers have given for their support of the new system is that they feel that it gives them a legal right to refuse.

Anyway, unsafe sex happens all the time in non-commercial sex - probably more often, I would guess. That isn't an argument to make non-commercial sex illegal.

There are very few people who go into prostitution voluntarily. We hear about the Belle De Jour stories but lets face it that's the exception. Most women are in prostitution because they have no other options but sell their body.

Belle du Jour is an exception because she was at the higher range. Those at the very low range, where they simply have no other choice, are also exceptions. Seriously, talk to sex workers some time. Or look at the New Zealand review data. The diversity of their experiences is much wider than you believe.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Please explain further.

Syklops summed it up pretty well. Except that I'm not a "he".

really the penalties should be on the demand side.

Penalising the demand side hurts sex workers too. We should be looking for ways to enhance their rights, not make them more vulnerable.

celtictiger32

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

could it be you are saying this because you like using them, and don't want the inconvenience of travelling to Germany for that 'service'

dont know who your comment is aimed at but its a bit of a stupid comment really considering you dont have to go to germany to avail of that service as everyone knows. besides the threads was started with the intention of debating the merits of legalising the industry.

BrianD

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Wikipedia is no more a cite than "someone said it to me in the pub last night". I could go change that figure to 2% now. Sorry you'll have to do better than that.

There are two reports to back up the Wiki figure as a factual figure.

Can you address the substance of the point I made?

That trafficing claims are inherrantly suspect but you give no evidence to back it up.

You'll have to ask the legalise prostitution lobby that question. As I've already said, I favour decriminalisation, not legalisation.

In this case of prostitution, I don't believe that there is any material difference between legalisation and decriminalisation.

The ultimate problem with legalisation or decrimalisation is that it does nothing more than making the actual transaction above board. It is a sop to those well meaning people who genuinely believe that by legalisation that it will get rid of the negative aspects of prostitution.

In reality all that changes is the legal status of the actual transaction and nothing else changes. This is because of the unique nature of what is being sold and the stigma of that transaction in every society in the history of mankind.

That's why I believe that legalisation will change very little. It's certainly a "man's world" in prostitution and, in general, sex workers will always be second class and never in control of the situation. Legalisation actually copper fastens this situation.