legalising prostitution?

Dandelion6

BrianD wrote: »

There are two reports to back up the Wiki figure as a factual figure.

Well, could you cite the actual reports please? Randomly quoting "Wikipedia" doesn't help establish the credibility of your figures.

That trafficing claims are inherrantly suspect but you give no evidence to back it up.

The whole point is the difficulty in obtaining evidence when the very subject matter is illegal. I don't think it's a particularly controversial statement within the field of sociological research - and the burden of proof is on those who present statistics to show that they've overcome this hurdle. But if you want an example of how unreliable trafficking statistics are generally, see this chart. The figures are all over the place - clearly a lot of it is purely guesswork.

In this case of prostitution, I don't believe that there is any material difference between legalisation and decriminalisation.

And the basis for this assertion is?

In reality all that changes is the legal status of the actual transaction and nothing else changes.

How can you say what happens "in reality" when you admit you have never even spoken to those who actually work in the industry?

in general, sex workers will always be second class and never in control of the situation.

Again, this is an assertion you are making from a position of no actual knowledge or experience. Sex workers' own views on this matter are quite different (see for example Suzanne Jenkins of Keele University's recent study "Beyond Gender: An Examination of Exploitation in Sex Work").

Legalisation actually copper fastens this situation.

Even assuming your underlying premise was correct, which it isn't, you still haven't even begun to demonstrate how criminalisation makes it any better.

Daveysil15

BrianD wrote: »

I could not agree. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and I see no widespread acceptance of it in any culture or society.

Prostitution is still very much stigmatised in Germany. 63% of sex workers are foreign (so it's not a career that local women are pursuing despite it being legal). Human trafficing of women for the sex trade has increased. There are no mandatory health checks whatsoever in Germany. The only real beneficiaries are the people who control the sex trade who can operate overtly and the government who get taxes from whatever the industry declares as income. Denmark is event worse

The bottom line is that there are very few women (or men) who enter prostitution voluntarily. Most are desparate for one reason or another and are easily exploited as a result.

Prostitution in itself is neither good nor bad. Each person brings to it what they will. I mean you wouldn't abolish the entire building sector because of a few rouge builders. Yes many prostitutes are despaerate and need the money but that's why we all work. I'm sure many sex workers wouldn't dislike their work anymore than working in McDonalds or as a cleaner.

Pkiernan

goose2005 wrote: »

definitely. At heart it's just an unpleasant, somewhat dangerous job - except, unlike gutting fish or wading through sewers, it pays extremely well.

One of the most ignorant statements I've ever read in the Legal section.

Prostitution in Ireland is coerced sexual slavery, and nothing else.

Do you think 17 year old Ukrainian girls love having sex with fat drunken Irish farmers? Or that they get rich from doing do?

People who use prostitutes should realise that they are defacto rapists, and should be charged as such.

Procrastastudy

Pkiernan wrote: »

One of the most ignorant statements I've ever read in the Legal section.

Prostitution in Ireland is coerced sexual slavery, and nothing else.

Do you think 17 year old Ukrainian girls love having sex with fat drunken Irish farmers? Or that they get rich from doing do?

People who use prostitutes should realise that they are defacto rapists, and should be charged as such.

Is criminalising it the answer to this?

Daveysil15

Pkiernan wrote: »

One of the most ignorant statements I've ever read in the Legal section.

Prostitution in Ireland is coerced sexual slavery, and nothing else.

Do you think 17 year old Ukrainian girls love having sex with fat drunken Irish farmers? Or that they get rich from doing do?

People who use prostitutes should realise that they are defacto rapists, and should be charged as such.

Where are you getting your facts from? Not all sex workers are victims of trafficking, drug abuse etc, certainly not in Ireland. There are plenty of women who chose this profession even if they don't like it. It's just the media only focuses on the ugly side of it.

christmas2012

prostitutes are reserved for the despererate,fat sweaty fuglies who cant get some,or sex addicts possibly with stds due to having it around everywhere...

Daveysil15

christmas2012 wrote: »

prostitutes are reserved for the despererate,fat sweaty fuglies who cant get some,or sex addicts possibly with stds due to having it around everywhere...

And what about the men who are disabled, disfigured or have some other problem and can't find a woman who will have sex with him? What about the men who don't want a relationship or the hassel's and emotional baggage of a one night stand? What about the men who travel a lot and don't have time to find a partner? What about the men who are kinky and just want to try something different that a normal girl wouldn't do?

There are many reasons why men would hire a prostitute. It's not just the fat fuglies and sex addicts.

christmas2012

youre selling it like its a product someone should buy!!these are human beings,some who are very vunerable and forced into these situations.these men who are buying should consider this.and if certain men have certain disablities or other problems,they should overcome those obstacles,try speed dating,or other avenues instead of paying for prostitutes who could have sexual diseases..

Daveysil15

As I said before...not all prostitutes have been coerced. Out of all the prostitutes in Ireland, how many do you think have been forced into it? I think they're in the minority. There was an article in the paper about escorts travelling around the country staying in hotels. They choose their own hours and who they sleep with. Do you really think a pimp is going to put women in fancy hotels around the country. It's like saying all bankers are bad just because the banks are in a state. Should we sack all the bankers and get rid of the banks?

Procrastastudy

christmas2012 wrote: »

you're selling it like its a product someone should buy!!these are human beings,some who are very vulnerable and forced into these situations.these men who are buying should consider this.and if certain men have certain disabilities or other problems,they should overcome those obstacles,try speed dating,or other avenues instead of paying for prostitutes who could have sexual diseases..

Interesting point; but compare the vulnerability and potential of someone having an STD to, say, some bird you've just pulled at 2am in a club under the influence of a night of drinking and a prostitute. Add to that the prostitute is much more likely to insist on safe sex.

I think you'll find that most people who feel legalisation is the correct course believe so because:

christmas2012 wrote: »

these are human beings,some who are very vulnerable and forced into these situations.

and feel its a way to reduce the problem in an industry thats not going anywhere regardless of the social outrage or criminalisation.

christmas2012

Cheap prostitutes are the option for most irish men,and they generally dont give a feck about the fact they are forced into it,and or pimped out..

Why confine yourself to prostitutes youre whole life there has to be something wrong with a man who continously uses prostitutes.

Im not sure how i would feel if i knew my boyfriend used a prostitute i would probably ask to get him checked out (ie an sti test)..

Procrastastudy

Daveysil15 wrote: »

As I said before...not all prostitutes have been coerced. Out of all the prostitutes in Ireland, how many do you think have been forced into it? I think they're in the minority.

Problem is we have very little way of knowing. Legalisation would go someway to resolving this,

Daveysil15 wrote: »

There was an article in the paper about escorts travelling around the country staying in hotels. They choose their own hours and who they sleep with. Do you really think a pimp is going to put women in fancy hotels around the country.

It's possible if the pimp thinks the investment cost is worth it v the reward.

Daveysil15 wrote: »

It's like saying all bankers are bad just because the banks are in a state. Should we sack all the bankers and get rid of the banks?

Oh did you really have to use that analogy? :rolleyes:

Daveysil15

christmas2012 wrote: »

Cheap prostitutes are the option for most irish men,and they generally dont give a feck about the fact they are forced into it,and or pimped out..

Why confine yourself to prostitutes youre whole life there has to be something wrong with a man who continously uses prostitutes.

Im not sure how i would feel if i knew my boyfriend used a prostitute i would probably ask to get him checked out (ie an sti test)..

Who said anything about using them your whole life. What's wrong with using the odd one now and again? I agree with the law student. It is likely safer to visit a prostitute who has had a multitude of partners but is tested regularly than it is to pick up a stranger in a bar that has never been tested! Would you rather your boyfriend had lots of one night stands or was lying and been deceitful to women in order to have sex with them?

christmas2012

so youre saying prostitutes in ireland that are regulary pimped out coerced forced or whatever are regularly tested?
another thing aswell in denmark and germany they have prostitutes who dont get regular checks,and since legalisation, government intervention in situations where women are pimped out is poor in places like denmark and germany..

Daveysil15

christmas2012 wrote: »

so youre saying prostitutes in ireland that are regulary pimped out coerced forced or whatever are regularly tested?
another thing aswell in denmark and germany they have prostitutes who dont get regular checks,and since legalisation, government intervention in situations where women are pimped out is poor in places like denmark and germany..

As I all ready said... what percentage of the prostitutes are been pimped? I think most men could spot a girl who has been coerced and a girl who is doing it voluntarily. Irrespective of that, the prostitutes will always insist on using a condom. Now I know condoms don't protect against everything, but its sure safer than having a drunken one night stand and forgeting to use protection.

christmas2012

would you think regular women would be more likely to carry stds eventough they dont sleep with men everyday on the hour or half hour for a living?
do you know as part of the 'services' prostitutes give some will include sex wtihout a condom,and charge more for it?

Procrastastudy

christmas2012 wrote: »

do you know as part of the 'services' prostitutes give some will include sex without a condom,and charge more for it?

Do you have a source for this?

In reality prostitutes that are known for bareback very quickly get outed and shunned for a number of reasons. I'm afraid I can't go into my source for this so you should treat it as unsubstantiated opinion.

Its a very common practise to offer Oral sex without a condom (see the escort-Ireland website and the associated reviews). The risk of transmission of HIV though oral sex is debated. However it is widely known that other STDs can be transfered though oral sex.

I'm still unclear on how you believe criminalising prostitution solves this problem.

EDIT: To be clear we should probably say we are talking about 'escorts' and not street prostitution which is almost exclusively people with serious drug addictions.

christmas2012

who are your sources so,lol im sure they get outed for going bareback lol

i never said criminilizing it did clean it up, but that aside, if you target the demand which is the pressure to provide prostitutes you are effectively targeting the industry..

legalising it sounds all good and dandy the only problem is who is going to intervene when a vunerable girl gets roughed up and forced in to the sex trade?

Daveysil15

As the law student pointed out, no prostitutes here will go bareback. The escort websites will confirm this. If you look at the escort website you will see discussion's between escorts and clients on message boards. Again, would coerced girls be taking part in online chats with their clients? I think not.

Clients can also post reviews on escorts they have visited, so if there is anything dodgy going on it can be reported. There's a big difference between escorts and street prostitutes.

christmas2012

you make it sound like every prostitute in ireland is an indoor escort thats not pimped out,its not all what you paint it to be you know


http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=202


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-men-need-to-face-the-truth-about-prostitution-in-this-country-2966906.html

Procrastastudy

I think you're missing the point of what the purpose of legalisation would mean. In actual fact you have to go back to first principles here. Its not illegal per se its a very grey area. One generally objects to prostitution on one or more of several distinct levels;

* an objection to sex outside of a loving and stable relationship;
* a objection to people being able to sell their bodies;
* the threat of trafficking, underage prostitutes and coercion ; and/or
* the public health issues.

Bringing prostitution out into the open does not assist with the first two, but makes numerous in roads into the latter two by ensuring proper inspections. Not everyone trafficked ends up in prostitution. Immigration can raid work places looking for who are here illegally - it's much more difficult with brothels as they stand at the moment. A form of licencing could also be brought in with a requirement to be screened every three months.

None of the above will stop people being exploited but it does allow the punter to make an informed choice. There are numerous ladies in Dublin who I can assure you are not being coerced, beyond the economic necessity, into prostitution. There are a number which probably are but, as it stands, you have very little way of knowing.

Legalisation would also allow a no-tolerance policy to punters using trafficked women. Essentially it would be like a taxi* if you don't see the licence you don't get in. Forcing something underground is never the answer in my opinion. You only need to look at what prohibition did in the US. Interestingly it's argued that reversing prohibition helped get the US out of the great depression due to the increased tax revenue which goes back to the OP's original point. How accurate that argument is however, is another discussion.

*yes I know I'm going straight to hell for that one!

Daveysil15

christmas2012 wrote: »

you make it sound like every prostitute in ireland is an indoor escort thats not pimped out,its not all what you paint it to be you know


http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=202


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-men-need-to-face-the-truth-about-prostitution-in-this-country-2966906.html[/QUOTE]

Well you're making it sound like every prostitute is pimped out. As I said, do you know what percentage of prostitutes are been coerced? And Ruhama have a very biased view on the whole thing. The escorts that are working voluntarily won't come forward and talk about it because of the stigma associated with it, yet its ok for Ruhama to do an interview with a few girls that have been trafficked and say that all women in the buisness are experiencing the same thing. Thery're only looking at it from one side of the argument.

Obviously there's different levels of prostitution. If you go to America you'll see the situation is a lot worse there. I'm not saying trafficking doesn't exist here, but you wouldn't abolish the entire building sector for example, because of a few rouge builders.

christmas2012

comparing forced sex workers to a builders its a different kettle of fish,some of these women are gang raped and beaten into this business tricked into the work even,i saw a programme on it not so long ago and was shocked by the whole thing,anybody with any bit of humanity would be..

Delancey

We will never see sex for sale de-criminalised or otherwise legalised in this country.
Unfortunately in much the same way that people are afraid to express their concerns over immigration issues for fear of being branded as racist or otherwise politicially incorrect the same paralysis grips any discussion of the sex for sale industry.

There is a large body of public opinion that has bought into the unproven ( and in my opinion spurious ) claim that most sex workers in Ireland are trafficked in and held to ransom by evil pimps - the main source of these totally unproven stories is of course the Ruhama group which is a re-incarnation of The Legion of Mary , however they have re-branded to move with our more secular times.

For every 1 trafficked sex worker ( assuming there are in fact any at all ) I would estimate there are probably 12 or 15 trafficked workers in the Fast Food sector but we shall never hear of them.

This is Ireland and given our history on all matters connected to sex , sexual health , sexual rights , etc does anyone seriously think we can expect progressive or forward-thinking legislation on the sex industry ?

not even wrong

Delancey wrote: »

the main source of these totally unproven stories is of course the Ruhama group which is a re-incarnation of The Legion of Mary

You have to admit that when it comes to imprisoning vulnerable women and forcing them to work, Ruhama know exactly what they're talking about.

Laundry orders run sex workers' aid group

TWO OF the religious congregations which ran Magdalene laundries in the State set up and continue to run the Dublin-based Ruhama agency
...
Both congregations refused to meet Justice for Magdalenes, a support group for women who had been in the laundries
...
the Good Shepherd Sisters have received more than €14.4 million from the Health Service Executive since 2006.
...
Despite selling off extensive properties in Waterford, Cork and Limerick, the Good Shepherd Sisters said that they had no resources to contribute to the costs of redress for people who had been abused as children in institutions which they had also run.

christmas2012

never seen that on the ruhama website,if they did make spuririous claims they could be open to liable and put through the courts system

Delancey

Clever marketing isn't it ? They call themselves Ruhama , which means nothing to anyone but had they called themselves St. Piux Society for Fallen Women well then they and their agenda could be more easily identified.
In much the same way as the urban myth of ' drink spiking ' is used by people to justify or excuse their own appalling behaviour , the unproven story of sex slaves is used to suppress any attempt at de-criminalising sex for sale.

Daveysil15

Delancey made some good points. People are been coerced and exploited in many other jobs, yet nothing is been done about that. Ruhama admitted that they simply don't know what percentage of the prostitutes in this country have been trafficked. They have only interviewed the victims and not anyone that has chosen the profession of their own free will. So their viewpoint is completely biased. Prositution in itself is neither good nor bad - each person brings to it what they will.

jumpin jaysus

cant see the percentage of prostitutes in this country who are trafficked and doing it against their will being too high, i mean in this day and age if you want to disappear its not very hard...

nuac

jumpin jaysus wrote: »

cant see the percentage of prostitutes in this country who are trafficked and doing it against their will being too high, i mean in this day and age if you want to disappear its not very hard...

or be disappeared...........

Dandelion6

jumpin jaysus wrote: »

cant see the percentage of prostitutes in this country who are trafficked and doing it against their will being too high, i mean in this day and age if you want to disappear its not very hard...

I think the bigger problem is if they want to disappear there aren't many places they can go. Most of them don't have permission to work in this country and if the authorities find them they'll just end up being deported. The situation they're in might seem to them to be the least worst option.

Mr. Loverman

I have a lot of experiencing dealing with Ruhama in the past.

They used to lobby the government for prosecutions to be based on Ruhama's claim on X or Y rather than any sort of evidence because... surprise surprise... they could never provide any evidence for the stories they got the Independent to print.

Mr. Loverman

BTW the definition of trafficked prostitute (going by Ruhama's definition) is "foreign woman working as prostitute in Ireland". So obviously there are load of "trafficked" prostitutes in Ireland.

jumpin jaysus

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

BTW the definition of trafficked prostitute (going by Ruhama's definition) is "foreign woman working as prostitute in Ireland". So obviously there are load of "trafficked" prostitutes in Ireland.

there you go, that just proves there isnt as much actually trafficked prostitutes in ireland as they claim

Delancey

jumpin jaysus wrote: »

there you go, that just proves there isnt as much actually trafficked prostitutes in ireland as they claim

Of course that is true , alas our lazy media are too quick to regurgitate the nonsense from Ruhama and this give them an influence well above what they deserve.
It is regrettable that in the 21st century our nanny state is still seeking ways to criminalise sex for sale.

Dandelion6

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I have a lot of experiencing dealing with Ruhama in the past.

They used to lobby the government for prosecutions to be based on Ruhama's claim on X or Y rather than any sort of evidence because... surprise surprise... they could never provide any evidence for the stories they got the Independent to print.

Which brings up the question, exactly how would the offence of "purchasing sex" be proven. I presume the people selling it (at least those who are doing it voluntarily) aren't going to be in a big hurry to put their customers in jail, seeing as they need their money. It's not like buying drugs where the guards can just make the purchase themselves... or is it

Daveysil15

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Which brings up the question, exactly how would the offence of "purchasing sex" be proven.

This is something I’ve often wondered about. On the documentary that was on TV3 recently, they showed men walking into an apartment block who were apparently going in to visit prostitutes. But if they were going into an apartment block, how could the authorities be sure they were all going to the same apartment where the prostitutes were? How exactly would you catch the punters out in that situation? If you walk into an apartment complex you could be going to any one of the apartments in the building. It’s not like they were filming the punters while they were inside the building.

Procrastastudy

LOL - by raiding the place and catching you in the act!

I'm sure inferences could be drawn from you naked in a known brothel if you did manage to eject yourself from the situation.

To be fair the Gardai go after street prostitution more than anything else and rightly so. That type of prostitution does cause harm and there is no excuse for it. Around the D7 area street prostitution has been almost completely removed. Fair few hookers in and around Smithfield apartments though!

Daveysil15

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

LOL - by raiding the place and catching you in the act!

I'm sure inferences could be drawn from you naked in a known brothel if you did manage to eject yourself from the situation.

To be fair the Gardai go after street prostitution more than anything else and rightly so. That type of prostitution does cause harm and there is no excuse for it. Around the D7 area street prostitution has been almost completely removed. Fair few hookers in and around Smithfield apartments though!

Catching you doing what though? You wouldn't be doing anything illegal. It's legal to sell sex in this country. Unless there are 2 or more girls working in the same place which would technically make it a brothel. And the girls would be charged with brothel keeping. The man would more than likely not be charged.

Procrastastudy

Very true - if you're at two girls at the same time though is that a brothel?

How about a Transexual and a miget? Still a bothel?

Daveysil15

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Very true - if you're at two girls at the same time though is that a brothel?

How about a Transexual and a miget? Still a bothel?

Ha I'd imagine so. That would be very embarrassing. :pac: But just imagine if your girlfriend was working as an escort and her apartment was been monitored. You go over to her place, start shagging her, and then the cops bust in and raid the place. How do the cops prove that money was exchanged? It's not like you get a receipt.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Ha I'd imagine so. That would be very embarrassing. :pac: But just imagine if your girlfriend was working as an escort and her apartment was been monitored. You go over to her place, start shagging her, and then the cops bust in and raid the place. How do the cops prove that money was exchanged? It's not like you get a receipt.

I would imagine that a judge would be satisfied that someone was a prostitute if they had numerous 'visitors' and undeclared income. One of her 'visitors' would probably give evidence against him/her if s/he was charged with soliciting prostitution, in return for a lighter sentence for him/herself.

In the situation described above, the pair simply tell the Gardai they are involved and bring some evidence of it to court if charged.

Dandelion6

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

To be fair the Gardai go after street prostitution more than anything else and rightly so. That type of prostitution does cause harm and there is no excuse for it. Around the D7 area street prostitution has been almost completely removed.

How does "going after it" remove the harm though? Do you think the D7 women have been criminalised out of prostitution? Or are they just doing it in more remote areas, or perhaps have switched to feeding their drug habit through purse-snatching instead?

Procrastastudy

Dandelion6 wrote: »

How does "going after it" remove the harm though? Do you think the D7 women have been criminalise out of prostitution? Or are they just doing it in more remote areas, or perhaps have switched to feeding their drug habit through purse-snatching instead?

Unfortunately I've not been let run the world yet. Frankly I think I'd do a better job than the current muppetts but then I think Sooty and Sweep could do a better job than the current...

The other harms, such as local woman being approached for not other reason than them being in that area has been removed, and I'll live with that for now. The entire drugs policy is a complete farce and needs to be re-evaluated - but thats a different thread tbh.

I'd be happy with a situation very similar to the status quo - people operating in small numbers - discretely out of apartments. The differences being it would be licenced, inspected and taxed to minimise women being trafficked into it.

Dandelion6

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

The other harms, such as local woman being approached for not other reason than them being in that area has been removed, and I'll live with that for now.

Well, speaking as one of those local women I still find myself more concerned with what has become of the unfortunate working girls chased out of here, than with the fact that I'm no longer facing the (relatively insignificant) "harm" of being asked if I'm one of them.