ireland's literacy?what is going on?

metrovelvet

I went into a garden center and asked the manager for AROMATIC sweet pea. He didn't know what aromatic meant and I had to explain it to him, a garden center manager.

pickarooney

Garden centre.

DEVEREUX

DEVEREUX wrote: »

did'nt

Is that a joke?

DEVEREUX

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

Garden centre.

I'm American. We spell it center.

It's normal standard over here that a garden centER manager doesn't know what aromatic means when he has to sell flowers for a living?

Dunjohn

I'd say it's an exception. "Aromatic" is a word that's common enough the many non-Garden centre managers would recognise it. It's just a gap in this one man's lexicon.

Slightly in the same vein, I've had something happen to me once, years ago, when I worked in a supermarket. And American lady asked me for some Japanese-sounding thing I'd never heard of - Kukido. I searched all around the Japanese-ish sections but could find nothing. I rang the manager and he said, yeah, we have loads of it, in the bakery section. So I brought the lady there but I still couldn't see any kukido. She just looked at me and took down a packet of biscuit dough. She'd been calling it "cookie dough."

metrovelvet

Dunjohn wrote: »

I'd say it's an exception. "Aromatic" is a word that's common enough the many non-Garden centre managers would recognise it. It's just a gap in this one man's lexicon.

Slightly in the same vein, I've had something happen to me once, years ago, when I worked in a supermarket. And American lady asked me for some Japanese-sounding thing I'd never heard of - Kukido. I searched all around the Japanese-ish sections but could find nothing. I rang the manager and he said, yeah, we have loads of it, in the bakery section. So I brought the lady there but I still couldn't see any kukido. She just looked at me and took down a packet of biscuit dough. She'd been calling it "cookie dough."

One time this English person asked me directions to the 'mowl.' I had no idea what he was talking about. I said what is a 'mowl?" It took about 15 minutes to fugure out he was saying MALL.

NufcNavan

metrovelvet wrote: »

I went into a garden center and asked the manager for AROMATIC sweet pea. He didn't know what aromatic meant and I had to explain it to him, a garden center manager.

Loving the lack of upper case in the thread title by the way.

metrovelvet

NufcNavan wrote: »

Loving the lack of upper case in the thread title by the way.

Im glad you like it. I would expect someone who leaves out a subjective case and doesn't write in full sentences would appreciate it.

I assume you are not an English teacher so these things are not as shocking as someone who sells flowers for a living not knowing what aromatic means.

NufcNavan

metrovelvet wrote: »

Im glad you like it. I would expect someone who leaves out a subjective case and doesn't write in full sentences would appreciate it.

I assume you are not an English teacher so these things are not as shocking as someone who sells flowers for a living not knowing what aromatic means.

Agreed. An absolute travesty.

Get on the blower to Joe Duffy on Monday afternoon.

pickarooney

This thread has nothing to do with English. It's just another pointless generalisation on Irish ignorance based on one incident. I fail to see what literacy has to do with a vocabulary gap in any case. What's an aromatic sweet pea as opposed to an ordinary sweet pea anyway, that I may go to sleep less ignorant myself?

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

This thread has nothing to do with English. It's just another pointless generalisation on Irish ignorance based on one incident. I fail to see what literacy has to do with a vocabulary gap in any case. What's an aromatic sweet pea as opposed to an ordinary sweet pea anyway, that I may go to sleep less ignorant myself?

One has a scent and one doesn't. There are two varieties.

I'll come back when I go to a garage and find a garage attendant who doesn't know what diesel and normal unleaded is.

pickarooney

I'm no botanist but a quick google says there are over a thousand varieties of Lathyrus odoratus but doesn't mention any with no scent, which would be kind of ironic, given the genus name. Are you sure you weren't looking for Lathyrus latifolius or everlasting pea, the perennial with a much milder perfume?

(yeah, this is what it sounds like when someone hasn't a clue and pretends they do after 10 seconds of googling)

Rodin

metrovelvet wrote: »

I went into a garden center and asked the manager for AROMATIC sweet pea. He didn't know what aromatic meant and I had to explain it to him, a garden center manager.

Ireland has a capital 'I'.
And in Ireland, center is spelt as 'centre'.

Before criticising ( NOT criticizing) other's literacy, your own needs to be fairly watertight.

Rodin

metrovelvet wrote: »

I'm American. We spell it center.

It's normal standard over here that a garden centER manager doesn't know what aromatic means when he has to sell flowers for a living?

Is that a question?
Your sentence construction is abysmal.

I suggest 'Is it . . .' may be a better start to future questions.

As an aside, if you walk into a pharmacy and ask for 'acetaminophen' expect a puzzled look. It will be nothing to do with literacy or level of education.

NomdePlume

metrovelvet wrote: »

One time this English person asked me directions to the 'mowl.' I had no idea what he was talking about. I said what is a 'mowl?" It took about 15 minutes to fugure out he was saying MALL.

I used to work in a bookshop, and one day a customer asked me if we had any "low" books.
"Low books?" I asked
"Yes, low books"
"Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean"
At this point he was looking at me like I was a total imbecile. "LOW books. Books on LOW"....
And after a long pause it dawned on me.....
"Oh, LAW books!"
"Yes, low!"

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

I'm no botanist but a quick google says there are over a thousand varieties of Lathyrus odoratus but doesn't mention any with no scent, which would be kind of ironic, given the genus name. Are you sure you weren't looking for Lathyrus latifolius or everlasting pea, the perennial with a much milder perfume?

(yeah, this is what it sounds like when someone hasn't a clue and pretends they do after 10 seconds of googling)

It was a garden centER manager in France who told me that there are scented and unscented varieties of sweet pea. A garden centER manager in France who had basic English knew the word aromatic.

I just wanted to make sure I was purchasing the aromatic sweet pea as I would like to add some sensuality to my garden.

I can't imagine one day when you walk into a garage in France and the attendant there doesn't know what sans plomb 95 is you will be on ennuye.fr wondering the same thing I am. [And before you start pickarooneying me, I already know there is an accent on the e, I don't know how to do accents on the keyboard.]

CiaranC

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

lol, nice one Walter Mitty

looksee

metrovelvet wrote: »

It was a garden centER manager in France who told me that there are scented and unscented varieties of sweet pea. A garden centER manager in France who had basic English knew the word aromatic.

I just wanted to make sure I was purchasing the aromatic sweet pea as I would like to add some sensuality to my garden.

I can't imagine one day when you walk into a garage in France and the attendant there doesn't know what sans plomb 95 is you will be on ennuye.fr wondering the same thing I am. [And before you start pickarooneying me, I already know there is an accent on the e, I don't know how to do accents on the keyboard.]

None of this has anything to do with literacy, more to do with appreciating nuances of the language as it is used in Ireland/England.

As has been pointed out, centre is the word used in England and Ireland, American English has reinvented it as center.

The most common variety of sweetpeas have a scent anyway (the clue is in the latin name). If you wanted something else you would be expected to ask for 'everlasting', for example.

I would not use the word 'aromatic' in connection with sweetpeas, to me it suggests herbs. While you are strictly speaking correct, it is not an intuitive use of aromatic. It might well seem to be correct to a Frenchman since they use the word aromatique to mean scented.

Finally, I would not consider adding scent to your garden would result in sensuality, not on its own anyway. Again you are strictly speaking correct, but it is not an intuitive use of sensuality.

Permabear

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looksee

Permabear wrote: »

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OK, I accept that, and I believe we are going back to varied spelling as we lose track of what is European and what is American spelling. However it is surprising how often Americans try to correct European English, whereas we just accept that Americans have different spellings.

metrovelvet

looksee wrote: »

OK, I accept that, and I believe we are going back to varied spelling as we lose track of what is European and what is American spelling. However it is surprising how often Americans try to correct European English, whereas we just accept that Americans have different spellings.

Wow. Talk about aromatic hipocracy. It stinks of horse****. Pardon my French.

If you want to speak the Queen's English, that's your preogative, but we have our own English, and I will use the one I grew up with.

At least I can recognise and respect that, rather than correct someone who spells center, centre and tell them how to speak their language.

Having flashbacks yet?

looksee

metrovelvet wrote: »

Wow. Talk about aromatic hipocracy. It stinks of horse****. Pardon my French.

If you want to speak the Queen's English, that's your preogative, but we have our own English, and I will use the one I grew up with.

At least I can recognise and respect that, rather than correct someone who spells center, centre and tell them how to speak their language.

Having flashbacks yet?

Feel free to use any English you want, but don't come on an Irish website complaining about literacy when people are using 'the Queen' English'. As to the centre/center discussion, there is an aromatic whiff of trolling.

pickarooney

metrovelvet wrote: »

Wow. Talk about aromatic hipocracy. It stinks of horse****. Pardon my French.

I think even in America that counts as bad spelling.

The centre/center thing was obviously a petty joke, in keeping with the spirit of the thread. Honestly, if you're going to post something so insensitive and inflammatory you can't expect people to take it well. Making thick Paddy digs might be OK if you self-identify as one, but making these kind of superior, disparaging remarks is not a whole lot different to starting a thread on an African message board title "why are blacks to dumb?" It doesn't help that you've been patently wrong from post one.

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

I think even in America that counts as bad spelling.

The centre/center thing was obviously a petty joke, in keeping with the spirit of the thread. Honestly, if you're going to post something so insensitive and inflammatory you can't expect people to take it well. Making thick Paddy digs might be OK if you self-identify as one, but making these kind of superior, disparaging remarks is not a whole lot different to starting a thread on an African message board title "why are blacks to dumb?" It doesn't help that you've been patently wrong from post one.

I never claimed to be a good speller. Im not an English teacher and I don't work in publishing.

If I did, you would have a point.

I do expect people who sell flowers to know what aromatic means.

I might add that you were patently wrong from your first post in correcting my spelling of centER. You want to claim an 'Irish message board.' The US invented the web, if you want to follow that train of thought.

And if being Irish is what qualifies you to make an observation without petty bullying from other posters, I hold an Irish passport and I have an Irish last name and hold Irish residency. And you have NO RIGHT to tell anyone else who they are.

deman

metrovelvet wrote: »

I might add that you were patently wrong from your first post in correcting my spelling of centER. You want to claim an 'Irish message board.' The US invented the web, if you want to follow that train of thought.

And if being Irish is what qualifies you to make an observation without petty bullying from other posters, I hold an Irish passport and I have an Irish last name and hold Irish residency. And you have NO RIGHT to tell anyone else who they are.

This is getting beyond ridiculous. It's comments like "we invented the internet" make a lot of Americans seem arrogant and self-important. What would we all do with our lives if it hadn't been for our wonderful cousins across the pond who have shown us the light. Inventing the internet! Ha! Follow that train of thought! Ha!

Newflash!

AMERICA OWNS THE INTERNET AND THEREFORE CONTROLS OUR LIVES!

Back on topic...

This garden centre, where was it? Ireland or the US? In Ireland it's a garden centre.

tallaghtoutlaws

To be fair to the OP I also find in shocking a Garden Centre Manager/Worker doesn't know what Aromatic means. I venture to the Garden centre a lot out by us with the old man a lot and even he has found some of said workers need to read up on what they sell. Pointless for the most part asking a few of them questions.

As for literacy, the standard definition of read and write for literacy has changed in many countries eyes including European Countries. It has long extended past read and write.

As for spelling, I also think giving the OP a hard time about the way she grew up spelling words is madness. You can hardly compare it to a Manager of a Garden centre not knowing what a word means, especially one used in his chosen field and lets get real Aromatic has been used a lot in the last 10 years by many, its hardly a new word or strange one to be asked.

Edit: Just to add I sent a buddy of mine a text who is an English teacher in the US but studied here in Maynooth for a year and asked him was his way of spelling accepted in an Irish College and he said yes it was. So those of you giving the OP a hard time about they way we spell things guess our education system doesn't care about the way Americans spell words.

deman

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

As for spelling, I also think giving the OP a hard time about the way she grew up spelling words is madness. You can hardly compare it to a Manager of a Garden centre not knowing what a word means, especially one used in his chosen field and lets get real Aromatic has been used a lot in the last 10 years by many, its hardly a new word or strange one to be asked.

Edit: Just to add I sent a buddy of mine a text who is an English teacher in the US but studied here in Maynooth for a year and asked him was his way of spelling accepted in an Irish College and he said yes it was. So those of you giving the OP a hard time about they way we spell things guess our education system doesn't care about the way Americans spell words.

I could have told you that even Cambridge accepts American English in its exams. But the student taking the exam must stick to one or the other and not a mishmash of both....

metrovelvet wrote: »

At least I can recognise and respect that, rather than correct someone who spells center, centre and tell them how to speak their language.

brendanL

I've something similiar to TS at deli counters that sell rolls.

If they sell sandwiches and rolls.. and they ask, 'what would you like?' I ask for a baguette.... honestly everytime the counter person says... 'a whaa?'

At this juncture in the roll buying experiance I say 'a roll man' XD

looksee

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

To be fair to the OP I also find in shocking a Garden Centre Manager/Worker doesn't know what Aromatic means. I venture to the Garden centre a lot out by us with the old man a lot and even he has found some of said workers need to read up on what they sell. Pointless for the most part asking a few of them questions.

As for literacy, the standard definition of read and write for literacy has changed in many countries eyes including European Countries. It has long extended past read and write.

As for spelling, I also think giving the OP a hard time about the way she grew up spelling words is madness. You can hardly compare it to a Manager of a Garden centre not knowing what a word means, especially one used in his chosen field and lets get real Aromatic has been used a lot in the last 10 years by many, its hardly a new word or strange one to be asked.

Edit: Just to add I sent a buddy of mine a text who is an English teacher in the US but studied here in Maynooth for a year and asked him was his way of spelling accepted in an Irish College and he said yes it was. So those of you giving the OP a hard time about they way we spell things guess our education system doesn't care about the way Americans spell words.

That is not the point at issue. Maynooth may have been willing to accept American spelling, that is not the same as an American (Irish passport notwithstanding) who is making an issue of being American and having an American education, insisting that Europeans are wrong in using a particular spelling.

Are we wrong about aluminium and colour and pyjamas and speciality as well?

I still contend that while a French person might apply aromatique to flowers, 'aromatic sweet peas' is not a phrase that would be expected and could therefore lead to momentary confusion - scented sweet peas, possibly, but even that could be considered tautology.

You want to claim an 'Irish message board.' The US invented the web

What are you talking about? It is an Irish message board! The clue is in the .ie in the name. And the fact that the vast majority of posters are Irish. And it is based in Ireland. Are you saying you have been on Boards all this time and didn't realise it was Irish? What did you think it was?

Permabear

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Earthhorse

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I agree but the discussion is actually about Ireland's literacy levels; a gap in one person's vocabulary is hardly a great starting point for the debate.

So, yes, we have significant literacy issues in this country.

True, but it's a very specific problem. Looking at the articles you posted we find that there are two main groups affected by this. The first are from the older generation:

Most of those who scored at Level 1 were in the older age groups.There are a number of possible reasons why so many older people scored at Level 1 in IALS:
• they may not have completed primary school;
• may not have been able to take advantage of free second level education which was only introduced in 1967; or
• they may only have developed the literacy skills required for society at that time.

There should be adult literacy programmes in place to address these issues but it is still easy to understand how they came about.

It also appears that children currently going through the education system are being let down by it but that some of this is due to shifting demographics:

“Both teams of experts have concluded that some, but not all, of the lower scores in reading and maths are explained by changes in the demographics of the group of 15-year-olds taking the test,” she said.

“Greater numbers of students whose first language is not Irish or English are now in classrooms, as are greater numbers of students with special educational needs.”

Again, the education system should be addressing these needs but it's understandable that there will be a delay between new demands on the system and the system addressing those demands.

So whilst I think there are real issues to be addressed I think they're perfectly addressable and there's little cause for concern.

sealgaire

metrovelvet wrote: »

One has a scent and one doesn't. There are two varieties.

I'll come back when I go to a garage and find a garage attendant who doesn't know what diesel and normal unleaded is.

I used to work in a couple of petrol stations and beleive me, there are plenty of people who work in them who don't know there is a difference. Dare I say it . .. women usually . ... .. .

Permabear

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looksee

Mocking and berating Americans for their spelling of centre/center is just sidestepping the issue.

From my reading it is Metrovelvet who is being heavy handed about spelling. Everyone else is allowing for alternative spelling, M is insisting there is only one spelling.

Permabear

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Yakuza

metrovelvet wrote: »

I might add that you were patently wrong from your first post in correcting my spelling of centER. You want to claim an 'Irish message board.' The US invented the web, if you want to follow that train of thought.

Not true. While the network that the web runs on is based on the US military ARPANET design from the 1960's, the web as we know it was invented by Tim Berners-Lee in 1989-90, an Englishman working for CERN.

I have no problem with someone using American spelling here, and posts saying we spell it as centre here are pointless, however the lack of knowledge displayed by the guy in the centre hardly merits a post on literacy levels.

Yakuza

metrovelvet wrote: »

on ennuye.fr ]

You do know that ennuyé translates as "bored", not board, right?
Maybe Pickarooney was a bit too quick off the mark to correct your spelling, but these boards are peppered with Irish people using US spelling despite having been taught the Irish / British way of spelling, or worse still, mixing both in the same post. When you come in to this forum in particular, lambasting an entire nation's literacy based on an interaction with one person, using spelling that the majority of readers in it will assume is an error or some attempt to look cool, (i.e. not qualifying that you're American), expect some blowback.

Im Only 71Kg

there's a sign in my local pub stating Stickly over 18's!

Su Campu

Reading down threw this tread I could'nt help notising that the people what was complaining about other posters mistakes were actually making some pretty bad one's theirselve's.

(See how many deliberate errors you can find in that paragraph!)

The Garden Centre/er argument aside, I find that the standard of English punctuation and grammar used by people of all nationalities is horrendous. The popularity of written communication now serves to highlight this fact. I see countless errors on every single thread on boards.ie and other sites, the vast majority of which are not just simple typos. These errors are not just confined to general chat, as journalists, of whom I'd expect the highest standards of English, are just as bad.

The worst examples are:

"There is...." instead of "There are....", when speaking of more than one thing.
The use of an apostrophe to signify plural.
The omission of an apostrophe to signify the possessive case.
The confusion between "their" and "there".
The use of "of" instead of "have", eg. "I should of ....."

I hear people from all nationalities making these mistakes.

I sometimes wonder if English teachers have noticed this trend in recent years. I suppose not, given that many of them are culprits themselves.

Enkidu

What defines correct English can I ask? For instance, recent years have seen a decrease in the use of the past subjunctive with its functions being taken up by the past indicative,

If I were... => If I was...

Are these things errors or part of the natural evolution of the language?

pickarooney

I always thought that was the conditional rather than the subjunctive ('...that I be on time) but it's always described as the subjunctive on grammar websites. The subjunctive has probably gone hundredth monkey at this stage.

Enkidu

pickarooney wrote: »

I always thought that was the conditional rather than the subjunctive ('...that I be on time) but it's always described as the subjunctive on grammar websites. The subjunctive has probably gone hundredth monkey at this stage.

I think it's the subjunctive. The conditional usually expresses an action dependent on/conditional to another one, e.g. "If you would lift that box, I would help you", where as the subjunctive is a mood expressing possibility, e.g. "If I were to win a car", "If I were you".

Yakuza

The subjunctive isn't a tense in its own right, it's a mood - more assigning a tone to the sentence, rather then when the action in the sentence occurred.

In Spanish, the subjunctive is very much alive (all the tenses I learned have both indicitive and subjunctive moods) and is one of the biggest things I struggle with in the language as it's hardly ever acknowledged in English.

It's basically used to express (inter alia) :

• a possible outcome ("If I were to win the lottery")),
• an action that is doubtful whether it may or may not take place ,
• a wish/desire/request (eg the song "If I were a rich man", from Fiddler on the roof )
• a subjective opinion (I think it would be great if you were to get a better job)

We probably use the subunctive mood more than we think, but as the verb doesn't change in most of its forms, we're unaware of it.

Enkidu

Enkidu wrote: »

I think it's the subjunctive. The conditional usually expresses an action dependent on/conditional to another one, e.g. "If you would lift that box, I would help you", where as the subjunctive is a mood expressing possibility, e.g. "If I were to win a car", "If I were you".

In my opinion, the examples you gave are just the 'if' clauses of a second conditional sentence. The second conditional in English is formed in this way:

if + clause using the past simple + clause using 'would' (or another modal verb)
e.g. If you lifted that box, I would help you

Your example (using two 'would' clauses) is not correct.

If someone asked me to explain the use of the subjunctive, I would tell them that it's used in this way:

It's essential that we leave as early as possible
All I ask is that you complete the form properly

I agree that quite a few websites and grammar books say that if + subject + were is another use of the subjunctive, so there's obviously a bit of an overlap somewhere but I consider your examples to be examples of the second conditional.

pickarooney

Andres Rich Grindstone wrote: »

It's essential that we leave as early as possible
All I ask is that you complete the form properly

Would it not be better to use examples where the verb form changes from the present tense?

Enkidu

Andres Rich Grindstone wrote: »

I agree that quite a few websites and grammar books say that if + subject + were is another use of the subjunctive, so there's obviously a bit of an overlap somewhere but I consider your examples to be examples of the second conditional.

If + subject + were is the English past subjunctive, it has evolved directly from the Anglo-Saxon past subjunctive.

Second Conditional is just one of the many bizarre grammar phrases applied only to the English language. Basically there are two common logically conditional statements, Real and Irreal. The past subjunctive is the traditional Indo-European construction used in Irreal clauses. In English grammars irreal clauses are sometimes called second conditionals, a name which obscures a typical application of the subjunctive.

EDIT: This isn't directed at you or anything. All this grammatical terminology is quite confusing, especially with the added complication of English only terms.

Enkidu

pickarooney, feel free to find your own examples, but:

Her insistence that he leave seemed rude.

An example of a past meaning using a main verb in the present tense.

I'd rather you didn't do that.

An example of a present/future meaning using a main verb in the past simple.

Enkidu wrote: »

If + subject + were is the English past subjunctive, it has evolved directly from the Anglo-Saxon past subjunctive.

Second Conditional is just one of the many bizarre grammar phrases applied only to the English language. Basically there are two common logically conditional statements, Real and Irreal. The past subjunctive is the traditional Indo-European construction used in Irreal clauses. In English grammars irreal clauses are sometimes called second conditionals, a name which obscures a typical application of the subjunctive.

EDIT: This isn't directed at you or anything. All this grammatical terminology is quite confusing, especially with the added complication of English only terms.

But we're talking about the English language, so I'm using the names for tenses in the English language. It's not an 'added complication', it's English grammar. All languages have their own names for things. A sentence using an 'if' clause is usually called the second conditional, because you have, well, a condition.

'If I had a million dollars, I'd buy a Ferrari'

Take away the 'if' clause and the rest of the sentence doesn't really make sense. Obviously the second conditional is used for unreal/hypothetical situations, but we also have the third conditional.

'If I'd known he wanted a present, I would have bought one'

This is also used for unreal situations, but is not used in the same way as the second conditional. If we divide conditionals into two groups, real and unreal, it doesn't cover the different uses of the second and third conditionals. Third conditionals would then have to be described as 'past perfect subjunctives', not past subjunctives. I don't think there's much point in using the term 'subjunctive' to describe a structure in English at this stage, unless it can't be avoided. There are so many completely different uses that it really doesn't describe anything very clearly. What's your objection to second and third conditionals?

Enkidu

Andres Rich Grindstone wrote: »

But we're talking about the English language, so I'm using the names for tenses in the English language. It's not an 'added complication', it's English grammar.

Oh yes:), I said "This is not directed at you", to convey that there's nothing wrong with using these terms, just that it is unfortunate that the specific English grammar terms obscure the fundamental Indo-European construction.

All I'm saying is that in what is called the second and third conditionals (which in many languages, e.g. Irish, have fallen together) the traditional form of the verb was the past subjunctive. Typically (Although not in the Romance languages) the past subjunctive is identical in it's preterite and perfect forms, (the problem you point out), which is why the second and third have fallen together.

Now in a lot of languages, like English the subjunctive is basically gone, only the verb "be" has a form in English. As in most languages, the subjunctive in English has basically been replaced by the conditional. Hence, as you say, there is no real need to use the subjunctive to describe English grammar anymore. My original point is that this would have disgusted English grammarians of the past, not using the subjunctive being a sign of degraded speech. So I'm basically saying where do you draw the line between commonly made grammatical errors and the evolution of the language.

Enkidu

Enkidu wrote: »

Oh yes:), I said "This is not directed at you", to convey that there's nothing wrong with using these terms, just that it is unfortunate that the specific English grammar terms obscure the fundamental Indo-European construction.

All I'm saying is that in what is called the second and third conditionals (which in many languages, e.g. Irish, have fallen together) the traditional form of the verb was the past subjunctive. Typically (Although not in the Romance languages) the past subjunctive is identical in it's preterite and perfect forms, (the problem you point out), which is why the second and third have fallen together.

Now in a lot of languages, like English the subjunctive is basically gone, only the verb "be" has a form in English. As in most languages, the subjunctive in English has basically been replaced by the conditional. Hence, as you say, there is no real need to use the subjunctive to describe English grammar anymore. My original point is that this would have disgusted English grammarians of the past, not using the subjunctive being a sign of degraded speech. So I'm basically saying where do you draw the line between commonly made grammatical errors and the evolution of the language.

It's hard to say, really. I dislike hearing phrases like 'if I was you' and 'I demand you to do it' and consider them to be bad English, but as you say, plenty of things we say today would have been scoffed at by the grammarians of the past.

Anyway, to answer the OP, I don't think one man not understanding the word 'aromatic' has anything to do with Ireland's literacy rates. Perhaps he misheard the word, perhaps he didn't understand OP's accent, perhaps he hadn't heard the word associated with sweet peas before. Perhaps he just didn't know that word. We all have gaps in our vocabulary. You can't take one isolated example and decide that this means that Irish people are all thick and illiterate. Saying that, I have noticed that a lot of people don't know the difference between 'lose' and 'loose', 'there' and 'their' and a surprising amount of people on Boards think it's correct to write 'I wasn't allowed do it' or 'I was made do it', so the OP isn't entirely incorrect. The example she gave was silly, though.