Klitschko-Haye in doubt yet again, Press conferences cancelled....

Wolfe Tone

I very rarely watch boxing and wouldn't be up to speed with nuances or anything, I admit I only watch the ones that get hyped to the max by sky sports(Hattons last few), but I enjoyed the fight, sure I would have loved to see Haye get knocked out, but it wasn't to be.

I must watch some more boxing in future

walshb

Daroxtar wrote: »

Explain?
30 years ago there was Larry Homes and sweet fúck all else.

What?

25-30 years ago there were many men that I would take to wipe Haye and Klit out. Tubbs, Whiterspoon, Dokes, Snipes, Shavers, Norton, Cooney, John Tate, Mike Weaver, Trevor Berbick, Greg Page, Pinky Thomas, TNT Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, James Tillis, Buster Douglas, Bonecrusher et al. Add in others from more recent years and Wlad, and PARTICULARLY Haye, wouldn't have been known. Haye would still be a CW if he knew what was good for him

fightireland

we got our (grubby) hands on some twitter stats from the fight in a cool infographic. pic is too big to post here - check it out here

nacho libre

corny wrote: »

No definitely not and i don't hold this view of every professional fighter.

We'll never know whether it is just business with him or whether he has professional pride. But just a couple of things.

Watching Wlad at the weigh in he was about as calm and as jovial as he could be. He shook everyone by the hand and laughed when Haye refused to shake his hand. He knew it was all rubbish, Haye knew it was all rubbish. Wlad was cool as a cucumber before, during and after fight.

If Haye wanted satisfaction from winning he'd have stayed at cruiserweight and not moved up. However, if he was in it for the money the path he's taken (fighting fraudley etc.) was the logical progression. Even very early retirement is logical. Fighting Ruiz, Fraudley, running away from Valuev and Wlad, retiring after a big payday strike me as the actions of a man who doesn't really care about legacy or professional pride.

If Klitschko wasn't genuinely put off by Haye's stunts, then kudos to him for being a good actor. I believe he was just relaxed at the weigh in because he knew the wait would soon be over to get Haye in the ring.
I don't think Haye's move up to heavyweight was purely about bigger paydays, he wanted to become undisputed champion and believed he had the ability to do so. I recall an old interview on you tube where he stated it was his dream to become heavyweight champion
It's true that judging by the route he's taken, glory alone wasn't the primary motivation, or else he would have fought Klitschko much sooner rather than holding out for a 50-50 split. If he does now retire it would seem to back up your assertion that money really was the primary aim all along, i don't think he will though. I get the impression he feels he has something to prove after failing to make good on his promises. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

nacho libre

Regarding the fight being a snoozefest;

Despite all the talk of Haye taking the fight To wlad, the evidence from his previous fights against lesser opponents suggested otherwise. Haye has one of the lowest punch outputs of a ranked heavyweight. His excuse in the Valuev fight was that he broke his hand early. You knew what you were going to get with Wlad. A fighter would be a fool not to use his natural advantage and stick with the tried and tested, which has made him successful, just in order to placate boxing followers. Wladimir is not really exciting to watch, but in fairness has he claimed to be?
The onus is on the person who claims they are all about electrifying/shaking up the division to do so. We simply did not see it.
Also i'm sure Klitschko will be content to be known as a long reigning champion rather than an exciting to watch, but gallant loser. The fact is Wlad has beaten everyone put in font of him in the last 7 or 8 years. Winning, no matter how you do it, is all that matters in the end.

Neil3030

walshb wrote: »

What?

I am no fan of guys getting hurt, but I do like a competitive and well fought fight, especially when the hype is sky high. That wasn't a competitive fight, it was a freaking snooze fest. They did their best to do as little as possible. Tactical? Skillful? My backside. Wlad walking after Haye; Haye moving away from Wlad. Jab, jab, step back, fall in, moan, REPEAT!

That's being ridiculously harsh - why should Wlad take needless risks when his gameplan was working? Haye posed a genuine knockout threat, not to mention the prospect of cuts. Why should Wlad be stepping inside when he was so far ahead? And credit must be given to Haye for his head and upper-body movement. Wlad is usually a sniper with his jab, but on Saturday night he missed with a lot of punches.

A text-book display of fundamentals won the fight for me. Haye was dominated by nothing more than a jab, occasional right and tidy footwork. If that doesn't float your boat, then fair enough. But I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Watch DeGale-Groves for an example of a high octane, skilled and competitive scrap, where they threw and landed, and fought for 12 rds. That had ZERO to do with hurt and pain. It was a well fought and interesting battle, with actions and skill, and patience.

Just because I like one type of fight, doesn't mean I won't like another! My point was that Wlad and Haye were given a lot of stick for not getting embroiled in a scrap, and a lot of this stick was coming from people with no interest other than seeing a guy knocked on his hole.

Criticism might be levied at Haye for not taking more risks in seeking the knockout later on, but he had already clipped Wlad with a few rights at this stage to scarcely any effect. He was probably well aware that stage that he was out of his league, and ultimately not cut out for the big boys. He'll gob on about his toe and other lame excuses, but he is just not good enough to compete in the heavyweight division.

Dohnny Jepp

I'm disappointed at all the k2 hate. I personally think Vitali gives any heavyweight a great fight from any era. I also think Wlad is technically sound and I actually enjoy watching him box cause he is perfect at what he does.

djhaxman

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

I'm disappointed at all the k2 hate. I personally think Vitali gives any heavyweight a great fight from any era. I also think Wlad is technically sound and I actually enjoy watching him box cause he is perfect at what he does.

That's fine. Personally I like to watch competitive, entertaining fights like Morales v Barrera or the Gatti-Ward trilogy, doesn't necessarily have to be a knockout, but at least both men engage in a bit of boxing.

CorkMan

It's good that 20+ votes where entered after the fight, "The full distance" has gotten more than double the votes it had

Daroxtar

walshb wrote: »

What?

25-30 years ago there were many men that I would take to wipe Haye and Klit out. Tubbs, Whiterspoon, Dokes, Snipes, Shavers, Norton, Cooney, John Tate, Mike Weaver, Trevor Berbick, Greg Page, Pinky Thomas, TNT Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, James Tillis, Buster Douglas, Bonecrusher et al. Add in others from more recent years and Wlad, and PARTICULARLY Haye, wouldn't have been known. Haye would still be a CW if he knew what was good for him

No. 30 years ago, ok, 30. Not 25. 30 years ago Shavers and Norton were gone or about to go. Pinklon Thomas is only famous for the same reason as Trevor Berbick- getting demolished by Tyson. Witherspoon ,Tubbs, Douglas, Smith, Page, and Tucker hadn't even arrived on the scene 30 years ago, Tyrell Biggs didn't arrive until after the LA Olympics in 84. I'm not being pedantic, the man said 30 so I'm taking it as 30. If he said 35 it'd be different , likewise 25, but in 1981 there was Larry Holmes and very little else.

walshb

Daroxtar wrote: »

No. 30 years ago, ok, 30. Not 25. 30 years ago Shavers and Norton were gone or about to go. Pinklon Thomas is only famous for the same reason as Trevor Berbick- getting demolished by Tyson. Witherspoon ,Tubbs, Douglas, Smith, Page, and Tucker hadn't even arrived on the scene 30 years ago, Tyrell Biggs didn't arrive until after the LA Olympics in 84. I'm not being pedantic, the man said 30 so I'm taking it as 30. If he said 35 it'd be different , likewise 25, but in 1981 there was Larry Holmes and very little else.

No, you are right to be precise. I understand. But, I did include fighters from 1981 in my list. Tim Whiterspoon was Ali's sparring partner for his 1980 Holmes fight. He was around, and if he was around today, at that age I would bet on him to take Haye out. Shaveres, Norton (ok,last bout 1981), and Cooney were competing. I would take all three to be too good for Klit and Haye. There are other names from that time frame that IMO would be too good. Weaver was around, Tillis too, and Gerrie Coetzee. John Tate as well. Plenty of men that IMO were better than what is here today.

Greg Page was competing in 1981. About 15-16 fights into his career. TNT Tucker was around.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

What?

25-30 years ago there were many men that I would take to wipe Haye and Klit out. Tubbs, Whiterspoon, Dokes, Snipes, Shavers, Norton, Cooney, John Tate, Mike Weaver, Trevor Berbick, Greg Page, Pinky Thomas, TNT Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, James Tillis, Buster Douglas, Bonecrusher et al. Add in others from more recent years and Wlad, and PARTICULARLY Haye, wouldn't have been known. Haye would still be a CW if he knew what was good for him

Yeah and wlad would bash them all bar Holmes and maybe norton apart from s lucky punch and potentially could beat them also, I'm sick of the klitschko's been under rated, especially vitali who could hang in any generation-you named some right punch bags there Douglas!! 1 great fight don't make you a world beater.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Yeah and wlad would bash them all bar Holmes and maybe norton apart from s lucky punch and potentially could beat them also, I'm sick of the klitschko's been under rated, especially vitali who could hang in any generation-you named some right punch bags there Douglas!! 1 great fight don't make you a world beater.

Wlad? I doubt it. He has not shown me he would beat many of them. Sure, he could provide problems, issues, but those guys would most likely beat him. I respect him for being champ, but I don't think he is a great fighter. He thinks Sanders and Brewster are trouble?
What quality/great fighter has he beaten?

SanoVitae

Based on his amazing chin alone, I think Vitali would be competitive with any heavyweight who has ever lived. Maybe Ali would outbox him to a decision but I can't see anyone KOing him (I'm sure Earnie Shavers would have given it a good go though!)

A prime Foreman going toe to toe against Vitali would have been some fight!

walshb

SanoVitae wrote: »

A prime Foreman going toe to toe against Vitali would have been some fight!

Foreman KO in 3 rds

h2005

Gutless display by Haye not in Klits class

washman3

Daroxtar wrote: »

Explain?
30 years ago there was Larry Homes and sweet fúck all else.

ok we'll just say haye would'nt make the grade in ANY other decade,just to make you happy.;)
read the posts from walsheb, he knows his boxing.;)

Reekwind

djhaxman wrote: »

That's fine. Personally I like to watch competitive, entertaining fights like Morales v Barrera or the Gatti-Ward trilogy, doesn't necessarily have to be a knockout, but at least both men engage in a bit of boxing.

And what was Wlad doing the other night? What you mean is "a bit of brawling"

Daroxtar

washman3 wrote: »

ok we'll just say haye would'nt make the grade in ANY other decade,just to make you happy.;)
read the posts from walsheb, he knows his boxing.;)

You're only saying that because he agrees with you. Have a read of Cowzerps posts, he knows a bit too:P

Squall19

SanoVitae wrote: »

Based on his amazing chin alone, I think Vitali would be competitive with any heavyweight who has ever lived. Maybe Ali would outbox him to a decision but I can't see anyone KOing him (I'm sure Earnie Shavers would have given it a good go though!)

A prime Foreman going toe to toe against Vitali would have been some fight!

I thought the same too.I agree with you that Vitali is very very underrated and would be a horror match for anyone not up for it, be it Foreman, Ali, prime Lewis, Frazier etc.

I think Foreman would find it very hard against Vitali.

Vitlai would out box Foreman imo, and certainly hit hard enough to take him out. I'll go with him.

Vitlai faced better power punchers than Foreman did in the 1970's too. Lewis, Sanders, Williams, and Hide hit harder than Frazier, Norton, Ali and Lyle.

I dont see many beating him.

I would think prime Tyson would be Vitali's kryptonite though.

I think that because of his beatings to Lewis, Holy, Douglas.

He took some serious punishment in those fights, against Douglas he took a beating that few could take and against Lewis he was 20lb overweight, a decade past his best and in terrible shape yet he took an onslaught from Lewis for 8 rounds, he was battered in there.

He took a far worse beating than Vitali did for example and that was the Tyson who supposedly had no heart for the fight and only in it for money, he didnt even get out of the way of Lewis's shots

Tyson just quit, He gave up, He didn't even luck hurt to me.

He was just in it for a payday, he tried to quit in the corner, but his team sent him out. After that, he just laid down. He could have knocked Lewis out if he had trained.

Tyson was 234lb in that fight, almost 20lb over his prime weight and very slow compared to his old self, yet in the first round of the fight he had Lewis in trouble.

Lewis was alot more motivated and in better shape for that fight than against Vitali and just imagine Lewis taking a few straight rounds of that, with a Tyson who had thehand speed of a teenager.

It would have been devasting.You would think Vitali who is slower, easier to hit, less athletic would have been battered for a few rounds by the much much quicker and not afraid of anyone Tyson.

Even against Haye, his brother who is much quicker couldn't get near Haye.

Tyson has far superior footwork to Haye, had an excellent defence and just as fast.

If Vitali has problems with Adamek who is very mobile, then that will tell out imo. Adamek has no power at all, but he has great feet, moves his head and works hard, all Tyson qualities.

Foreman didn't have those qualities.

Though I think Tyson would much prefer Vitali than Foreman.

Style makes fights as they say.

I can see Adamek giving Vitali a much better fight than Haye gave his brother, he's a hard guy that Adamek and very quick.

washman3

Daroxtar wrote: »

You're only saying that because he agrees with you. Have a read of Cowzerps posts, he knows a bit too:P

ya, cowzerps knows his boxing too without a doubt and has valid opinions. in fact all posters on boxing forum have excellent opinions,its an exceptional forum with few messers.
my point is,there have been bums,journeymen,fruadsters,call them what we may in every decade.
these guys are mostly cannon fodder to good fighters on their way to the top. unfortunately nowadays if these guys can muster up enough of hype (usually from the likes of skysports) they can bluff their way,with the help of a moneybags promoter,to a world title shot.
IMO Haye is in this category. the Klitschko brothers are not. for 2 brothers to hold all belts simultanously proves that.

titan18

walshb wrote: »

Wlad? I doubt it. He has not shown me he would beat many of them. Sure, he could provide problems, issues, but those guys would most likely beat him. I respect him for being champ, but I don't think he is a great fighter. He thinks Sanders and Brewster are trouble?
What quality/great fighter has he beaten?

I always see this said about Wlad and Vitali and I think it's kind of bs. Sure,the rest of the division may be bad, but if a fighter of the quality of Ali or Tyson were fighting now, would their quality be diminished due to the level of talent they faced?

Vitali gives a hard fight to anyone from any era imo.Wlad less so, but he's a very good boxer and will take out a lot of fighters.

makl

wlad's straight right was most exciting thing about fight, wished he used it more, especially as haye was never even trying to get around that side.

count was ridiculous for sure, quickest i've ever seen, as if ref copped his idiocy half way through and sped through it.

if haye matched wlad for size it might have been a more interesting fight. we just saw a hw beat a cw fairly handily, i don't think the fight showed us much beyond that.

Jimmy Iovine

The fight was a total let down but at least Wladimir's entrance was incredible. One of the best I've seen. Only thing wrong was when George opened the door too soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg805AyDk

walshb

titan18 wrote: »

I always see this said about Wlad and Vitali and I think it's kind of bs. Sure,the rest of the division may be bad, but if a fighter of the quality of Ali or Tyson were fighting now, would their quality be diminished due to the level of talent they faced?
Vitali gives a hard fight to anyone from any era imo.Wlad less so, but he's a very good boxer and will take out a lot of fighters.

No, if Ali was around today he would clean up, as would Tyson. So, it's not just about what the Klits are beating. I think neither is great. They are big and strong and obvioulsy possess talent and skill, but I don't see anything great about them. I think both would not make it in other eras. I don't think they would be champ.

I mean, take Vitali. His signature bout and best opponent was a slow and past it Lennox Lewis. Lewis was pretty average/ordinary that night, yet he still won. It wasn't just Vitali making him look ordinary. Lewis had a lot of miles on the clock.

Put peak Lewis, Holyfield or Tyson in there and Vital doesn't get past a few rds.

I just asked the question about who they have beaten. Haye for example wouldn't have made two rds against Holyfield or Tyson, or some others, but Klit, with all the physical advantages doesn't come close to truly exposing Haye.

Like I said, I respect both, and think they are talented, but not close to great. I see none of the past champs, and contenders, losing to them.

yabadabado

Kirby wrote: »

:rolleyes:

People keep saying that like sky are doing something wrong.

It's their job to hype up their product. They are no different to anybody else in business. You have a product, you try and sell it. Even if you know its not the best product ever......its all thats available at the moment. It's not soley their fault that boxing is in a bad state.

Haye picked the right brother to fight. He had a punchers chance but thats all he ever had. He needed the courage to go with that chance to win the fight. You have to be willing to go toe to toe, fight on the inside and risk getting knocked out. Lunging from far away and then flopping to the floor was never going to work. Audley Harrison got stick when he fought Haye and rightfully so but Haye's performance last night was no different at all Haye wasn't willing to risk losing the fight......so he never had a chance to win it tragically.

If people are bitter that they blew their money on stupid bets, thats your own fault. Not sky's. If you paid the ridiculous box office price, thats your fault. Not sky's.

Now.......people who paid and never got to see the fight because of Sky's ineptitude......THEY have a right to complain.

I wasn't faulting Sky what they did,they have a business to run.I was just pointing out that Haye wasnt good enough and was built up to be great and people bought into it.
I didn't pay for box office nor lose money on Haye.

walshb

makl wrote: »

if haye matched wlad for size it might have been a more interesting fight. we just saw a hw beat a cw fairly handily, i don't think the fight showed us much beyond that.

No, we saw a super sized heavy beating a heavy. Haye was 212 lbs. He is also 6 feet three. He is not a crusier anymore, same way Holyfield went. Ali would be a CW by that standard.

BTW, the only comparison with Haye-Holy-Ali is the size and weight. As for talent, Holy and Tyson are leagues ahead of David Haye.

djhaxman

Reekwind wrote: »

And what was Wlad doing the other night? What you mean is "a bit of brawling"

I said "both men"

makl

walshb wrote: »

No, we saw a super sized heavy beating a heavy. Haye was 212 lbs. He is also 6 feet three. He is not a crusier anymore, same way Holyfield went. Ali would be a CW by that standard.

BTW, the only comparison with Haye-Holy-Ali is the size and weight. As for talent, Holy and Tyson are leagues ahead of David Haye.

fair enough, so we saw the bigger guy beat the smaller guy, i don't think we saw the better boxer win on the night. that said, haye's real weigh in weight was 208kg, according to booth (decide yourself how credible it is http://www.worldboxingnews.net/2011/07/adam-booth-claims-haye-weighed-in-5lbs.html) . commentators said his fightweight was closer to 200 again.

again, i wish wlad used more combos on the night, was the only time he showed how much better he is - he just didn't show it enough on the night.

Squall19

Not suprised, Haye did look small.

He looked more like a fashion model than a heavyweight.

Haye is a tall guy and 208lb is a joke really.

Tyson was 5'10 and a solid 220lb at prime, he used to walk around closer to 225lb-230lb when not training.

Tyson at 6'3 like Haye would have been 240lb+ no doubt.

While Haye I heard walks around when not training at 215lb.He was having to eat eat and eat for the Valuev fight to bulk up.

There is a pic with big George and Haye looks a small bit taller, I know George would have shrunk a bit but he would still be around 6-1 or 6-2.

It's hard to see that because the brothers are basketball players.

Look at this pic with Audley, Audley supposedly wore lifts durinng the press conferences for the Haye fight in order to make it seem like another "David vs Goliath" affair

walshb wrote: »

No, we saw a super sized heavy beating a heavy. Haye was 212 lbs. He is also 6 feet three. He is not a crusier anymore, same way Holyfield went. Ali would be a CW by that standard.

BTW, the only comparison with Haye-Holy-Ali is the size and weight. As for talent, Holy and Tyson are leagues ahead of David Haye.

I agree Walsh

Did you watch the fight again?

I did and Wlad found it very difficult to hit Haye, and hardly at all with anything meaningful.

When he did land flush, he didnt move Haye at all.

Prime Tyson was more elusive than Haye, quicker, alot more powerful, threw in combinations, and had lights out power in both hands.

When Haye did land, Wlad was in a bit of trouble in fairness.

If you were in trouble v Tyson, it was usually over pretty quiclly.

I respect Wlad, but I dont see this fight going very long at all.

Prime Holy is the same story.

Haye's weight even opens up the debate of a new super heavy weigh divison.


Haye at 6'3 and say Adamek at 6'2 for example could easily make 200lb right now at 30 years old, like there is no way say a tyson who is a short powerfuel guy could have made 200 pounds for a fight at 22 never mind 30 or Tua as well for example.

Todays heavyweight division is unfair for guys like Haye,he is in a awful position.

The guys now are so big that the gap between cruisers and today's heavyweights is 30-50 pounds, that's way too much.

I really dont like idea of a super heavy division, but think maybe cruiser should be raised to 215 or create a new division from 190-215.

There are no good heavyweights at 200-210 pounds these days so that should not be the starting point anymore imo.

Holy was the exception, he just an animal of a man, the real life Rocky Balboa, he went to war in the ring against beasts, there will never to be another Holyfield, they have to think about that.