Gunsmithing

newby.204

Im not sure how many lads are qualified fitters or would have access to the equipment to do it but here is a very good video tutorial on truing the action of a remmy 700. The link below is to part1 which of course leads to part 2,3,4...etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n191F9c1YiQ&feature=youtu.be

if this breaks any forum rules, i apologise, and would ask the mods to remove the thread

Cass

It doesn't break any rules, but it also goes without saying that any modifications, especially ones relating to extensive work, should be carried out by a qualified person.

Thats not saying people could not do it, but to use the fella's own words if not done correctly or done by someone following a video you could experience a "catastrophic" failure resulting in serious injury or harm.

rowa

You could do this but as you are removing metal from stress bearing components of the action i am certain the rifle would need to be reproofed. I could be wrong on that though. I think the disadvantages would far outweigh the advantages anyway.

bazza888

do remingtons get proofed tought that was just done in the uk?

rowa

bazza888 wrote: »

do remingtons get proofed tought that was just done in the uk?

Its a legal requirement in all european countries to the best of my knowledge, anyway if you have a rifle action and barrel trying to contain something in the region of 19 tons per square inch Everytime its fired just inches from your face would you not like to be confident in it ?

bazza888

i would indeed,i was asking as i tought someone on here before said remington dont proof rifles like they do in england on all rifles

newby.204

rifles in the US are not proofed however all rifles imported into Europe should either be proofed or be sent for proofing, to the best of my knowledge its illegal to sell unproofed rifles in Europe, that being said there is nothing to stop anybody, competent, confident and qualified enough to carry out their own work from shipping their rifle to a proof house in the UK for proofing.

gunhappy_ie

newby.204 wrote: »

Im not sure how many lads are qualified fitters or would have access to the equipment to do it but here is a very good video tutorial on truing the action of a remmy 700. The link below is to part1 which of course leads to part 2,3,4...etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n191F9c1YiQ&feature=youtu.be

if this breaks any forum rules, i apologise, and would ask the mods to remove the thread

Long before Custom actions became available in the US/Euro market this was done, it also still is as a second hand remmy action can be picked up for peanuts Vs 1400-1800 USD Surgeon action or simular.

Ezridax wrote: »

It doesn't break any rules, but it also goes without saying that any modifications, especially ones relating to extensive work, should be carried out by a qualified person.

Thats not saying people could not do it, but to use the fella's own words if not done correctly or done by someone following a video you could experience a "catastrophic" failure resulting in serious injury or harm.

The funny thing is that under Irsih law any RFD can do it.

Firearms act 1925, Section 1,

"the expression “firearms dealer” means a person who, by way of trade or business, manufactures, sells, lets on hire, repairs, tests, proves, purchases, or otherwise deals in firearms or ammunition

The ability of them being able to do it is another thing.

rowa wrote: »

You could do this but as you are removing metal from stress bearing components of the action i am certain the rifle would need to be reproofed. I could be wrong on that though. I think the disadvantages would far outweigh the advantages anyway.

Possibly (im not totally up on the law requarding proofing) under euro law it may need to be proofed (ireland used to have a proof house, as we have a recognised proof marking) so it would have to be sent to the UK.

As regards removing metal from a critical area, at most .1-.2mm is removed.

As for a advantages Vs disadvantages .... As these jobs get done youll watch your groupings shrink considerably. Look at it this way....

The reciever of a factory remmy 700 is never square. They are knocking out too many guns too fast at too little cost. (in the cast of the 40x its a different story but its a far more expensive rifle).

Surgeon actions (maybe others do too) EDMs there raceways so that they are within thousands of an inch of accuracy ....actually

"Raceways are EDM-cut to be perfectly square with the receiver face, threads, and bolt locking lug surfaces"

" Bolt is machined from a single piece of 4140 steel billet, including .308 (.473" diameter) breech face, extraction cam, and bolt handle; outside diameter and locking lugs are machined in a single operation, so the lugs are perfectly square with the bolt exterior. Bolt maintains a .007" clearance out of battery, with .004" clearance (.002" per side) when closed."

Doing these trunig jobs are a great way to (i) save money or only spend it as you have it to spend. (ii) watch as you do each stage how your rifle gets closer and closer to perfection. Once your action is completely trued then you can look at changing the barrel as your action would be more accurate than your factory barrel.

bazza888 wrote: »

do remingtons get proofed tought that was just done in the uk?

They would be batch tested, 1 in few would be checked.

newby.204 wrote: »

rifles in the US are not proofed however all rifles imported into Europe should either be proofed or be sent for proofing, to the best of my knowledge its illegal to sell unproofed rifles in Europe, that being said there is nothing to stop anybody, competent, confident and qualified enough to carry out their own work from shipping their rifle to a proof house in the UK for proofing.

It definatly is illegal in the UK to sell an unproofed firearm.

GH

Cass

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

The funny thing is that under Irsih law any RFD can do it.

Firearms act 1925, Section 1,

"the expression “firearms dealer” means a person who, by way of trade or business, manufactures, sells, lets on hire, repairs, tests, proves, purchases, or otherwise deals in firearms or ammunition

Just for clarification purposes i was answering that it is not against the rules of Boards.ie. If the OP meant the law then i misread the post and you are correct.

The ability of them being able to do it is another thing.

Thats my thinking. I know alot of lads that know alot about firearms and i'd have no problem with them doing some minor working on my rifles, but when it comes to the action, headspace, etc i would definitely want someone that not only knows their stuff, but is s**t hot at it.

newby.204

Ezridax wrote: »

Just for clarification purposes i was answering that it is not against the rules of Boards.ie. If the OP meant the law then i misread the post and you are correct.



Thats my thinking. I know alot of lads that know alot about firearms and i'd have no problem with them doing some minor working on my rifles, but when it comes to the action, headspace, etc i would definitely want someone that not only knows their stuff, but is s**t hot at it.

No Ez you were correct wasnt sure if it was against forum rules to post it. Realistically the only qualification you need is to be a fitter turner, or mechanically minded and have a lathe.

I have read for years on other forums and books what goes into truing/blueprinting an action, it is my intention someday to buy a piece of sh!t remmy, scope it, shoot it, re-work it and shoot it again to see if i can do it, with my own rifle.

If i make a **** of it its my loss and ill have some fun explaining it to get another rifle but sure the only way to learn how to do things like this is to do it, the laws in Ireland just make it that much harder.

gunhappy_ie

newby.204 wrote: »

No Ez you were correct wasnt sure if it was against forum rules to post it. Realistically the only qualification you need is to be a fitter turner, or mechanically minded and have a lathe.

I have read for years on other forums and books what goes into truing/blueprinting an action, it is my intention someday to buy a piece of sh!t remmy, scope it, shoot it, re-work it and shoot it again to see if i can do it, with my own rifle.

If i make a **** of it its my loss and ill have some fun explaining it to get another rifle but sure the only way to learn how to do things like this is to do it, the laws in Ireland just make it that much harder.

I would say that mechanically minded wouldnt be enough to work to the tight tolerences that are required for headspacing, threading barrels etc. Tool makers/fitter turners is a great trade to have among other things.

There are quiet a few tools needed for truing an action nt including the cost of a good lathe. So it may not be ideal for a 1 off job.

Once you have a licence you only need to substitute it for another should you make a muck up of it.

rowa

I'm a fitter/turner by trade and have a lathe , and i would think very long and hard about going down the road of messing with a rifle action. Its easier in the states where gunsmithing tools can be bought off the shelf and the legal issues that we have simply don't exist over there.
I don't see the attraction of the remington action anyway , i had a few remingtons and didn't think they were anything special , i bought a sako and thought it was miles ahead.

gunhappy_ie

rowa wrote: »

I'm a fitter/turner by trade and have a lathe , and i would think very long and hard about going down the road of messing with a rifle action. Its easier in the states where gunsmithing tools can be bought off the shelf and the legal issues that we have simply don't exist over there.
I don't see the attraction of the remington action anyway , i had a few remingtons and didn't think they were anything special , i bought a sako and thought it was miles ahead.

Im a fitter/armourer by trade. As your in the trade you know that lathes/mills only move in set planes so what your machining is irrevelant so working on a rifle action is no more different (IMO) than a pump, compressor etc.

Gunsmithing tools can be bought off the shelf (all be it in the US) and shipped here so there is no excuse there. The only legal issue we have is the wording of the Firearms act as mentioned above where technically a shooter would have to bring his firearm to a gunsmith for EVERYTHING....

It also is an offence someone who isnt a RFD to work on a gun.... so (an example) your mate helping you out with that bedding job.... sorry boys !

The poorly worded definitions in the firearms act wouldnt stop me doing my own work on my own guns as I cant think of anyone in the trade with the experience that I do but I dont have a stealership set up yet.

To work your own 700 should you muck it up, hand it into a RFD for destruction while you pick up your pride and buy another.

While the 700 doesnt appeal to you, you have (IMO) answered a very valid point as to why people would have this kind of "extreme" work done to there guns..... The cost of a Sako clearly reflects the extra quality that has gone into there guns so out of the box they are better shooters then the standard remmington.

GH

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

It also is an offence someone who isnt a RFD to work on a gun...

Just noticed that - where does it say this in the Act gunhappy?

ssl

Donno is this what your thinking of

Firearms Act, 1925
Restrictions on manufacture and sale of firearms.

10.—(1) On and after the commencement of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person to manufacture, sell, repair, test, or prove, or expose for sale, or have in his possession for sale, repair, test, or proof, by way of trade or business, any firearm or ammunition unless such person is registered in the register of firearms dealers.

All ledgiatation is open to interpretation.
I'd say your covered for minor stock work i.e. bedding, reshaping, adding a cheek piece, staining, varnishing, etc. And minor gun work i.e. bluing, removing iron sights, etc.

Sparks

Yes, but but the operative phrase there is "by way of trade or business". You can't make money off selling or servicing firearms unless you're an RFD, but if you couldn't test your own firearm yourself, you'd have a bit of a problem with ever actually firing it

As to repairing your firearm, well, I've done so myself (stock snapped on my air rifle, I ordered the replacement part, took it all apart and rebuilt it). I've stripped down and rebuilt pretty much every rifle in DURC at one point or another and so have most of the CROs and Ammo&Equipment officers in DURC over the years, and in UCDRC and in most other clubs too - and so have shooters, I know a few NTSA shooters who bedded their own actions back when that was the norm (with alu stocks, it's not done that much anymore as it's no longer necessary). Pretty much any kind of repair you can do by swapping parts or buying kits has been done by people who know their firearms. It's not something I'd recommend to someone who doesn't know what they're doing, and I wouldn't go past the replacing-parts level to the machining-new-parts level (I don't have the kit or the expertise) but it's not illegal either so long as it's for your own, licenced rifle (within limits, obviously - you go making a spare of every part and you'll have a second, unlicenced firearm and then you're a test case in the high court...).

Hondata92

rowa wrote: »

Its a legal requirement in all european countries to the best of my knowledge, anyway if you have a rifle action and barrel trying to contain something in the region of 19 tons per square inch Everytime its fired just inches from your face would you not like to be confident in it ?

Talking to a RFD a few days ago and any rifle he brought in from outside europe (ie america) he had to have proofed, he was saying about some law but mainly because if it wasnt proofed then his insurance would not cover him to sell it ( i zoned out till insurance was mentoned)

If anything were to go wrong with the firearm then he would be liable and his insurance would cover him. Any firearm he sold (such as remington) had to be proofed before he aquired them.

Maybe it was just his policy and he was spoofing about the law but what about the riflesmiths here, ive yet to hear of any of their works been proofed.

Was it BS i was told????

bazza888

where do they get them proofed in ireland?

IRLConor

bazza888 wrote: »

where do they get them proofed in ireland?

The Firearms (Proofing) Act, 1968 designated the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards as the proof house for Ireland. The IIRS became Eolas which became Forbairt. I'm not quite sure if the 1968 Act was repealed at some stage and I can't find anything about Forbairt so I assume it's been subsumed into some other quango somewhere. Somewhere along the way I presume either the '68 Act was repealed or they just forgot they had a proof house!

In practical terms many firearms in Ireland will come from a CIP member country, so they'll be proofed there as a matter of course. Even for firearms not manufactured in a CIP country if they come through a dealer in a CIP country so will be proofed in order to sell it (e.g. my Swiss rifle was proofed in Germany since it was going through a UK dealer on its way to me).

pedroeibar1

IRLConor wrote: »

..........I can't find anything about Forbairt so I assume it's been subsumed into some other quango somewhere. Somewhere along the way I presume either the '68 Act was repealed or they just forgot they had a proof house!.........

I used to do some work with the IIRS years ago and found them technically brilliant but quite laid back. Back in the 80's the NBST (Nat. Board for Science and Technology) was forcefully merged with the IIRS and the new entity became EOLAS. That was then merged in the 90's with a part of the IDA to become Forbairt, which was I think a unit of Forfas. There was more politicking over the merging of IDA and CTT (Coras Trachtala/Irish Export Board) which eventually became Enterprise Ireland, the idea to have a one-stop shop for Ireland Inc. and the 'Ireland House' concept was created. The techy consultancy side of the business was later merged with a part of DIT and is now called CREST.

In an article a couple of years ago in a UK glossy mag about the second-hand gun market, the writer (maybe D Dallas?) said he never bought guns in Ireland as they inevitably had been bodged, very poorly repaired/worked on. He highlighted Cogswell & Harrison as being the worst for bad work, due to their more unusual action. Just look at the screws on most older shotguns.
FWIW
P.

rowa

I have to agree with pedroeibar , i have seen some lovely firearms on dealers shelves scarred or ruined by amateur bodgery, i was going to buy a used beretta 682 a few years ago in a wellknown gunshop when i noticed the top rib was badly bent down towards the barrel , i told the dealer and he simply got out a massive screwdriver and wedged it between the barrel and rib and levered the dent back out , how the barrel wasn't dented i don't know.
Anyway back to the original question , if this shooter does blueprint or whatever his rifles action and decides in a year or two to sell it , who here would buy it without a reproof ?

johngalway

rowa wrote: »

i told the dealer and he simply got out a massive screwdriver and wedged it between the barrel and rib and levered the dent back out

I'd almost put money on who that dealer is

gunhappy_ie

ssl wrote: »

Donno is this what your thinking of

Firearms Act, 1925
Restrictions on manufacture and sale of firearms.

10.—(1) On and after the commencement of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person to manufacture, sell, repair, test, or prove, or expose for sale, or have in his possession for sale, repair, test, or proof, by way of trade or business, any firearm or ammunition unless such person is registered in the register of firearms dealers.

All ledgiatation is open to interpretation.
I'd say your covered for minor stock work i.e. bedding, reshaping, adding a cheek piece, staining, varnishing, etc. And minor gun work i.e. bluing, removing iron sights, etc.

Thats the 1... and yes it is all down to how the law is poorly worded but it still is open to interpetation

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but but the operative phrase there is "by way of trade or business". You can't make money off selling or servicing firearms unless you're an RFD, but if you couldn't test your own firearm yourself, you'd have a bit of a problem with ever actually firing it

As to repairing your firearm, well, I've done so myself (stock snapped on my air rifle, I ordered the replacement part, took it all apart and rebuilt it). I've stripped down and rebuilt pretty much every rifle in DURC at one point or another and so have most of the CROs and Ammo&Equipment officers in DURC over the years, and in UCDRC and in most other clubs too - and so have shooters, I know a few NTSA shooters who bedded their own actions back when that was the norm (with alu stocks, it's not done that much anymore as it's no longer necessary). Pretty much any kind of repair you can do by swapping parts or buying kits has been done by people who know their firearms. It's not something I'd recommend to someone who doesn't know what they're doing, and I wouldn't go past the replacing-parts level to the machining-new-parts level (I don't have the kit or the expertise) but it's not illegal either so long as it's for your own, licenced rifle (within limits, obviously - you go making a spare of every part and you'll have a second, unlicenced firearm and then you're a test case in the high court...).

My view on that is that its ok do do whatever work you want so long as you never sell that gun again.

Hondata92 wrote: »

Talking to a RFD a few days ago and any rifle he brought in from outside europe (ie america) he had to have proofed, he was saying about some law but mainly because if it wasnt proofed then his insurance would not cover him to sell it ( i zoned out till insurance was mentoned)

If anything were to go wrong with the firearm then he would be liable and his insurance would cover him. Any firearm he sold (such as remington) had to be proofed before he aquired them.

Maybe it was just his policy and he was spoofing about the law but what about the riflesmiths here, ive yet to hear of any of their works been proofed.

Was it BS i was told????

its all insurance theese days so theres truth in that but legally I believe there is a requirement to have a firearm proofed.

GH

rowa

do the armed forces not have some form of proofing facilities ?

gunhappy_ie

rowa wrote: »

do the armed forces not have some form of proofing facilities ?

No its not needed as its dont @ manufacturer level

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

My view on that is that its ok do do whatever work you want so long as you never sell that gun again.

I don't think that that's the case, though it's arguable (which probably means you need a test case in the courts to get a definitive answer). If (like me) your rifle breaks in some easily repairable way and you repair it yourself, then selling it on in Ireland doesn't seem to be illegal because you're not in the business of gunsmithing - the repair wasn't done to facilitate the sale, but to allow you to continue to use your own firearm. It's not the same as buying a broken rifle on the cheap, repairing and reselling it, which the law would (in my humble opinion) clearly prohibit unless you're an RFD.

its all insurance theese days so theres truth in that but legally I believe there is a requirement to have a firearm proofed.

I don't believe so. There's provision in the law to allow a proofing agency to operate (mostly in amendments to section 10), but there's no mandatory requirement for proofing that I can find anywhere in the law. That said, I'm not a barrister and it's not an area I've spent many years digging into, so if you have a citation, I'd be quite interested in seeing it.

There's also some debate as to the merit of proofing, don't forget - it's not exactly a 100% foolproof and utterly reliable method of testing after all (a marginal firearm might survive proofing, but the proofing itself might weaken it to the point where it is no longer safe to fire even with the loads it was designed for).

rowa

i don't know about that sparks , i know the americans have an attitude of "we make them right so no proofing needed" but having seen pictures of the budget rifle remington brought out a couple of years ago, with badly split barrels and other disasters i don't believe its the right way to go.
The gun barrel proof house in birmingham are supposed to have a great black museum of guns that didn't make the grade, but the admission fee is bit steep.

http://www.gunproof.com/

pedroeibar1

rowa wrote: »

..............Anyway back to the original question , if this shooter does blueprint or whatever his rifles action and decides in a year or two to sell it , who here would buy it without a reproof ?

Rowa,

I would not touch a firearm that had no proof marks. If a fellow shooter had one, I would not shoot with him. If a gun looked mechanically modified I would not buy it and would steer clear of anyone using it. (No offence, you might be a brilliant metalworker, but I don't know that ) There are enough gobdaws out there who would think it cool to extend chambers to 3inches to take magnums.

I’m no lawyer either, but IMO any RFD selling a gun modified ‘out of proof’ would leave himself open to huge liability claims, and deservedly so. There would not be much sympathy either for a shooter who modified and fired a gun causing an accident. My guess is that the courts here would go on the Birmingham Proof House definition viz: Arms previously proved and bearing apparently valid proof marks are deemed unproved if the barrels have been enlarged in the bore beyond certain defined limits or if the barrel or action has been materially weakened in other respects.

I have skimmed through the Firearms Acts and unless I missed something it would seem that it is not an offence to sell an unproofed gun in Ireland. The nearest I got to what I wanted is Section 4 of Firearms (Proofing) Act, 1968, where the Minister by a special order can prevent use, etc. of unproofed guns.

4.—(1) The Minister may by order prohibit the export, sale, letting under a hire-purchase agreement or on hire, or the use of any firearms, or any specified class of firearms, unless there has been applied to such firearms either—
(a) a mark prescribed under this Act for application to firearms, or
(b) a mark required or authorised under the law of another State to be applied to such firearms, being a mark recognised for the purposes of this section by the Minister.

Subsection 5 also is pertinent:
(5) Where the Minister recognises for the purposes of this section a mark required or authorised by the law of another State to be applied to firearms, he shall give such notice of such recognition, in “Iris Oifigiúil” and at least one newspaper circulating in the State, as he may think fit, and shall enter in a book (which shall be known, and is in this Act referred to, as the register of foreign proof marks) kept by the Minister for that purpose a copy of every such mark so recognised, and the register of foreign proof marks shall be open for inspection by any person at such times as the Minister may appoint.

It would seem that the Minister has piggybacked onto the work of the EU proof houses, relying on the fact that guns coming into Ireland are proofed by them. Pity, I'd love an Irish proof mark (shamrock? harp? cliabh?)

Has anyone here inspected the ‘register of foreign proof marks’ or even know if such a slender tome exists in the DoJ? (If the economy continues like this I will have time to book a time to visit it meself )
P.

gunhappy_ie

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It would seem that the Minister has piggybacked onto the work of the EU proof houses, relying on the fact that guns coming into Ireland are proofed by them. Pity, I'd love an Irish proof mark (shamrock? harp? cliabh?)

P.

Irish proof marking. Was used on Fenian Shotguns that were manufactured in Ireland some time ago.

http://www.gunaccessory.com/Proof_Marks/proofmarks.htm#10.

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

i don't know about that sparks , i know the americans have an attitude of "we make them right so no proofing needed" but having seen pictures of the budget rifle remington brought out a couple of years ago, with badly split barrels and other disasters i don't believe its the right way to go.
The gun barrel proof house in birmingham are supposed to have a great black museum of guns that didn't make the grade, but the admission fee is bit steep.

http://www.gunproof.com/

More like;
"We make them right as best as possible as we are selling them to the most litagatious society on planet Earth.However seeing that it is a mechanical device it can be prone to fault or mis construction. I]Especially if it is assembled in a plant somwhere where a mud floor is more common than a concrete one,because the bean counters say it is cheaper to do this[/I.Somthing just might give.So going and blowing them up with over charging mightnt be a good idea either,and isnt going to do much to make them any safer either. Thats why product liability attorneys are very rich in the USA.":D

Grizzly 45

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Irish proof marking. Was used on Fenian Shotguns that were manufactured in Ireland some time ago.

http://www.gunaccessory.com/Proof_Marks/proofmarks.htm#10.

Which were made in their heyday in or around 1960's in Birr.Which did bring up the whole legislation of the 1968 proof marking act,specific to the Fenian guns.It fell apare that while we did have a proof house[still do in Dublin Castle somwhere] we never employed a master gun proover[?][ Is there such a word?],and apprently the barrels were UK /Spanish[?]imports.So a proof house became redundant..