Gels in IM distance events -

kingQuez

So I've been doing my sums, and I lose a fair bit of time opening gel packets when cycling (lack of skills -- I have to slow to a crawl to do it and avoid ending up in a ditch).

Anyone tried the option of throwing all your gels into a flask and using them from that? The obvious con is if you drop it or something happens to it you're fecked.. anyone got a strong view on whether its worth it or not?

mloc123

Biggest issue I would see is... how do you know how much you are taking on at a time.

kingQuez

Yeah, was wondering about that too. I think I'd have a fairly good idea (from using the packs) how much a 'serving' is... all the stuff i've been reading gives rise to pretty rough rules of thumb for how many g of carbs you want each hour anyway, so figured if your slightly off its not going to be the end of the world. Could be very wrong on that though

sconhome

The big problem, as mloc says, is monitoring how much you are getting so that you can plan your nutrition on the bike leg.

Depending on the gel you use, you will need to get water on too in order to get the sugars through your stomach and into your intestine for absorbtion asap.

An idea, which has been suggested and I've tried, would be to preload a syringe with the gel (I've used them with a honey / water / salt mix, sounds mad, I know) which you can then dose easily & cleanly into your mouth.

I've used some Kinetica gels recently which are real easy to open with your teeth, so only one hand needed, contain water and have some decent flavour too. Worth a try.

DogSlySmile

Never done anything close an IM but I've heard of people taping gels to their crossbar on the bike so when they rip it off the crossbar, the neck of the gel tears open, and they can just suck away

mloc123

15+ gels taped to your crossbar could be interesting

I think the easiest option is to practice ridding with no hands and opening gels.

Izoard

KQ..do you only take gels on the bike?

I think the option of solid food on the bike is great, before I have to switch to gels on the run...

kingQuez

Izoard wrote: »

KQ..do you only take gels on the bike?

I think the option of solid food on the bike is great, before I have to switch to gels on the run...

I'll occasionally throw in a powerbar bar or something but they're a mess as soon as you open them, so I've found I mostly stick to gels the last few months. They sit ok with me (tried them up to 7hrs), but I've no idea how my tummy will feel beyond that. I also haven't been eating quite as many as you're meant to (maybe 50g carbs instead of 70 or so). I've to nail my nutrition plan this week, only five more weekends to try it out. After a few hours I get hungry that I need something solid in my tummy, but jellies usually do the trick for that. I went off sports drinks for a long time there, they were just too sweet... so back to plain water and some electrolytes for me on that front.

Izoard

kingQuez wrote: »

I'll occasionally throw in a powerbar bar or something but they're a mess as soon as you open them, so I've found I mostly stick to gels the last few months. They sit ok with me (tried them up to 7hrs), but I've no idea how my tummy will feel beyond that. I also haven't been eating quite as many as you're meant to (maybe 50g carbs instead of 70 or so). I've to nail my nutrition plan this week, only five more weekends to try it out. After a few hours I get hungry that I need something solid in my tummy, but jellies usually do the trick for that. I went off sports drinks for a long time there, they were just too sweet... so back to plain water and some electrolytes for me on that front.

Jaysus, I got through 3 bananas and 4 Nature Valley bars @ IM CH last year...I think I'd have a black out after 10 mins with the jellies-only approach:)

kingQuez

Izoard wrote: »

Jaysus, I got through 3 bananas and 4 Nature Valley bars @ IM CH last year...I think I'd have a black out after 10 mins with the jellies-only approach:)

Haha, theres no proof that I wouldnt blackout going the full distance! bananas seem a bit bulkey, those nature valley bars are tasty though.. must take a look and see whats in them.

tunney

Izoard wrote: »

KQ..do you only take gels on the bike?

I think the option of solid food on the bike is great, before I have to switch to gels on the run...

Solids as bike fuel? For many reasons a bad idea.

To the OP - if you are losing time as a result if opening ant eating gels I think your nutrition is the least if your worries, I'd look at my bike handling skills first. Popping a gel should have no impact.

kingQuez

tunney wrote: »

Solids as bike fuel? For many reasons a bad idea.

To the OP - if you are losing time as a result if opening ant eating gels I think your nutrition is the least if your worries, I'd look at my bike handling skills first. Popping a gel should have no impact.

On an ok road surface its not too much bother to open them when on the tri bars, but half the time when I try to do it one-handed in training (gripping the tab with my teeth) I split the gel packs down their sides and cover myself in the contents (resulting in ditch-inducing wobble). Any tips?

Short of needing both hands off the handlebars I've pretty decent control of the bike; just cant seem to multitask... any specific stuff I should do to imrpve this?

ronanmac

If there was ever a sport to identify markets that were never there previously, it's triathlon!

http://www.lyramid.com/products.html

Tears gel pack as you pull it out of holder apparently. No idea if it works or not, never used or seen one in action.

Izoard

tunney wrote: »

Solids as bike fuel? For many reasons a bad idea.

Any enlightenment here?

mloc123

Izoard wrote: »

Any enlightenment here?

I could think of one.... where do they go after a few hours.

Izoard

mloc123 wrote: »

I could think of one.... where do they go after a few hours.

Pro cyclists happily consume solids (and gels) in races without difficulty.

Personally, I haven't had a problem over the past 10 years or so of consuming solids on the bike - however, IM is as much about Iron Stomach, than anything else....

shotgunmcos

mloc123 wrote: »

I could think of one.... where do they go after a few hours.

Thats food with more fibre mloc. On teh morning of a race the PROs get sugary cereal and nutella on white bread into them, washed down with plenty of caffeine. Its exactly what I watched all the elites having (hig GI breakfast) at the conrad last year the morning of the DCM. Ok we are talking about a 12-14 hour event here so nutrition matters more but stuff moves fairly quickly through the system when running! Yes if you have a load of undigested solids in your stomach when you start the run you will have issues.

I'd also like some expansion from Tunney. Different strokes for different folks and all that. A lad I know who did Roth last year necked in the region of 15-20 gels on the bike no problem. He survived on water and coke on the run and ran every step of it.

Personally the idea of 20 gels in hot weather is already giving me stomach cramps so I need to consider alternatives. At least for the early section of the bike maybe 1-2 hours I'm considering powerbars. I've started using them lately and find them good. My longest brick thus far was on solids up to 4 hours on the bike and then gels from there on and onto the run.

Back on topic, I'm interested in the dump of all the gels into the one bottle and using another bottle of water to wash them down. Maybe a stupid question but do the gels (I use PB) not get stuck in the straw and to the bottle? I mean if you squeeze 20 will 3 or 4 of those not just line the bottle?

Also, I've been using carb mix in a bottle on long rides. Assuming gels in one bottle and water in the other (that you replace at aid stations) then there is no room for the carb drink which is a valuable 400-800 cals depending on how rich you can take it?

Good discussion by the way

mloc123

I dunno about you but I could see myself needing a dump over the course of 10 hours if I was eatting solids.

All gels are different also. I tried PB gels to begin with and couldn't stomach them at all, one had me gagging and the idea of fueling a bike on them wasn't looking good. I tried high5 isogel and they were much better. Only my recent longer bikes I have taken anything up to 12 gels and 750ml of high5 2:1 without any issues... the only problem is when I work out how much a long bike costs :eek:

mloc123

Izoard wrote: »

Pro cyclists happily consume solids (and gels) in races without difficulty.

Personally, I haven't had a problem over the past 10 years or so of consuming solids on the bike - however, IM is as much about Iron Stomach, than anything else....

Average bike stage is under 4 hours? Average IM would be a little longer.

shotgunmcos

Yes practicing the race day nutrition every weekend would cost a bit. Probably 30+ yo yos a session. Also I'd just be pretty sick of gels at this stage. I've done the full 180k bike and 1 hour run off as my biggest session so far and the nutrition was solid up to 4 hours on the bike moving from the food slower to sugar (cereal bars) to the higher sugar/starch ratio (Powerbars) over the 4 hours. Along with about 700 liquid carbs. I then took gels plus water for 4-5.5hrs, a gel with plenty of water in transition and a gel+water at 30 mins of the run. The last gel was caffeinated, an experiment. Oveall my best session of the programme so far and I had some energy in the tank. Again though PB gels work for me but I just couldn't face them on the run if I had thrown 15+ back on the bike.

I reckon after a 1-1.5 hours swim your metabolism will have easily shifted into gear to digest solids taken on in the early stages at least?

As for having them stashed in pockets, bento bag, taped to frame etc... You would want to bring a couple more than planned just in case. I can generally sit up with both hand off and tear it open. I remember cycling back to Limerick from Galway the day after the Connemara Marathon. It was just a 3.5hour spin but my body was low enough so the feul was more essential than a normal 3.5hours spin where I'd probably just have liquid carbs. Anyway at about 2:45 I took out my last gel to get me home. I needed it too. Got it open and then dropped it just as I brought it to my lips. I didn't stop to go back for it and just about made it home...

Hence I'm very interested in the OP and squeezing them all into the bottle.

I presume by the way you would put them in the aero bottle and drink water from the one on the frame?

griffin100

I was asking simialr type questions before my IM last year - some of the answers may be of use:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66832013

I dunno about you but I could see myself needing a dump over the course of 10 hours if I was eatting solids.

Gels or solids it doesn't matter - if you are 'racing' for long enough then you'll need the portaloo - T2 and about 15 miles into the marathon were interesting times for me in IM last year :P. Lookin at the footage of IMUK the winner had to pop into the loo a couple of times as well.

Back on topic, I'm interested in the dump of all the gels into the one bottle and using another bottle of water to wash them down. Maybe a stupid question but do the gels (I use PB) not get stuck in the straw and to the bottle? I mean if you squeeze 20 will 3 or 4 of those not just line the bottle?

I'm planing on trying this in my next HIM, using Hi5 isogels to fill up a water bottle along with some water - much more liquid like constituency so dont need water. If it works I may try it at IM distance.

Last year I was loaded up like a packhorse for IM with cliff shot blocks and a couple of power bars in the rear pocket and it was a pain in the ass carryin so much. By the time I got to the run I forced in a PB in the first couple of miles and did the rest of the run on coke and bananas - not ideal, the extra few calories from a gel or two would have helped.

Given the number of IM's under her belt I'd be interested in HM's opinion but she probably has more important things on her mind at the minute.

TFBubendorfer

Would something like this be of interest:

http://www.hydrapak.com/store-2/#ecwid:category=632677&mode=product&product=2479675

It's a gel flask inside a water bottle. There's a video on the page as well, demonstrating it's use.

pgibbo

mloc123 wrote: »

I could think of one.... where do they go after a few hours.

LOL...very true.

I don't think the rate of absorption of solids is as good as gels or carb drinks. I'd limit solids to bananas or an energy bar. Personally I'd use gels primarily with the odd banana or bar thrown in.

mloc123

I tried power bars also, they were just too much work for me.

shotgunmcos

mloc123 wrote: »

I tried power bars also, they were just too much work for me.

They are softer and easier/quicker to eat in warm weather. I first tried em on a cold morning long rides and my jaw was stiff for days afterwards

mloc123

shotgunmcos wrote: »

They are softer and easier/quicker to eat in warm weather. I first tried em on a cold morning long rides and my jaw was stiff for days afterwards

yeah, it would have been back in the winter when I tried them. Taste was fine but alot of work alright

tunney

griffin100 wrote: »

Gels or solids it doesn't matter - if you are 'racing' for long enough then you'll need the portaloo

Why? No reason an IM cannot be completed without needing a poo. You just need to manage your diet correctly.

griffin100 wrote: »

I'm planing on trying this in my next HIM, using Hi5 isogels to fill up a water bottle along with some water - much more liquid like constituency so dont need water. If it works I may try it at IM distance.

So you are going to take the isotonic gels and add water to them?????

shotgunmcos wrote: »

...the bike moving from the food slower to sugar (cereal bars) to the higher sugar/starch ratio (Powerbars) over the 4 hours.

How does exercise affect the release of insulin?

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Along with about 700 liquid carbs. I then took gels plus water for 4-5.5hrs, a gel with plenty of water in transition and a gel+water at 30 mins of the run. The last gel was caffeinated, an experiment. Oveall my best session of the programme so far and I had some energy in the tank. Again though PB gels work for me but I just couldn't face them on the run if I had thrown 15+ back on the bike.

Total calorie intake per hour?

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I reckon after a 1-1.5 hours swim your metabolism will have easily shifted into gear to digest solids taken on in the early stages at least?

One of the main issues with solids is that if something is to go during a race - due to heat, intensity, nerves, water swallowed in the swim - its your appetite for solids.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

As for having them stashed in pockets, bento bag, taped to frame etc... You would want to bring a couple more than planned just in case. I can generally sit up with both hand off and tear it open. I remember cycling back to Limerick from Galway the day after the Connemara Marathon. It was just a 3.5hour spin but my body was low enough so the feul was more essential than a normal 3.5hours spin where I'd probably just have liquid carbs. Anyway at about 2:45 I took out my last gel to get me home. I needed it too. Got it open and then dropped it just as I brought it to my lips. I didn't stop to go back for it and just about made it home...

Hence I'm very interested in the OP and squeezing them all into the bottle.

And if that bottle with ALL your nutrition hopped off the bike and into the bushes?

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I'd also like some expansion from Tunney. Different strokes for different folks and all that. A lad I know who did Roth last year necked in the region of 15-20 gels on the bike no problem. He survived on water and coke on the run and ran every step of it.

On what? On having your nutrition strategy based on solids?
Its not a fantastic idea for a number of reasons - appetite for solids goes before anything else, slower to absorb, more likely to have "GI issues", most costly to absorb, more waste products. I'm sure that there are more. Heavier and bulkier to carry.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Personally the idea of 20 gels in hot weather is already giving me stomach cramps so I need to consider alternatives.

15 powerbar gels on the run, 10 sis gels on the run.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

At least for the early section of the bike maybe 1-2 hours I'm considering powerbars.

A bar and a quarter is about the max calories that can be absorbed per hour.

7 bars over a bike leg, I'm already feeling full.

Only 3 or so for the first two hours but still...

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Back on topic, I'm interested in the dump of all the gels into the one bottle and using another bottle of water to wash them down. Maybe a stupid question but do the gels (I use PB) not get stuck in the straw and to the bottle? I mean if you squeeze 20 will 3 or 4 of those not just line the bottle?

1) You loose the bottle
2) how do you know how many calories that you are taking on? Oh I know that IM discussion here has gone all hippie and **** but at some stage science has to play a part and nutrition is that. I accept that most people will blow their load on the bike and then blame nutrition but for those that get their pacing strategy right a proper nutrition strategy is key. And a B one too.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Also, I've been using carb mix in a bottle on long rides. Assuming gels in one bottle and water in the other (that you replace at aid stations) then there is no room for the carb drink which is a valuable 400-800 cals depending on how rich you can take it?

Again why put gels in a bottle?
Small gel flasks make some sort of sense and they can be strapped here or there or stuck in pockets.

Izoard wrote: »

Pro cyclists happily consume solids (and gels) in races without difficulty.

Remind me again how long the run is off the bike in a pro-tour bike race?

Izoard wrote: »

Personally, I haven't had a problem over the past 10 years or so of consuming solids on the bike - however, IM is as much about Iron Stomach, than anything else....

How many people have you sent queueing at portaloos?
How long have you spent at portaloos?
How many people have you seen sh1t themselves on the run?

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Would something like this be of interest:

http://www.hydrapak.com/store-2/#ecwid:category=632677&mode=product&product=2479675

It's a gel flask inside a water bottle. There's a video on the page as well, demonstrating it's use.

Capacity of the gel flask is a little low and you are likely to have to throw it away as you switch to aid station bottles.


Really from what I have gathered from my rare dip in and out of boards is that even the people at the pointy end of things have no plans and are all hippie about stuff. Probably explains why some of these high hope threads have gone no where. Second to pacing, a nutrition strategy is most important IMHO. That being said most people will have fvcked their IM up massively well before the day and well before a nutrition failure can do anything. (I include myself in this this year as I still have to start training for IMde)

My 2c

Izoard

tunney wrote: »

How many people have you sent queueing at portaloos?
How long have you spent at portaloos?
How many people have you seen sh1t themselves on the run?

All possible, but not the point I was making.

Based on 10 years or so of events, solids work for me (never had to visit a portaloo, thank God...), but maybe I'm the 0.01% freak...horses for courses.

shotgunmcos

How does exercise affect the release of insulin?
It eats up your carbs quicker an inhibits the realease of the growth hormone, basically neither of whichare good news for going long.
Heres a Not so sciency realted blog post
Heres a More sciency article

Total calorie intake per hour?
On my last big session, 360cals/hr on the 5.5hr bike and 210cals on the 1 hr run

One of the main issues with solids is that if something is to go during a race - due to heat, intensity, nerves, water swallowed in the swim - its your appetite for solids.
Thats why I was only considering solids for the first 2 hours of the bike

And if that bottle with ALL your nutrition hopped off the bike and into the bushes?
Its a profile aero bottle, pretty secure, going nowhere!

On what? On having your nutrition strategy based on solids?
Its not a fantastic idea for a number of reasons - appetite for solids goes before anything else, slower to absorb, more likely to have "GI issues", most costly to absorb, more waste products. I'm sure that there are more. Heavier and bulkier to carry.
The GI issues are most likely to arise if you consume too much of anything and try to exercise but another common mistake is washing gels down with anything other than water. Agree too many solids brings it on too.

15 powerbar gels on the run, 10 sis gels on the run.
You meant 15 on the bike right? 25 gels whatever type would have me in a gooey mess by 30k in the Marathon no doubt. On all of my long rides I’ve fuelled with solids and never had an issue other that not taking on enough in the early stages. I get that the advantage of liquids is that they are absorbed thus not yanking the blood flow from your muscles where they are required. Solids require digestion and rely on the blood supply for that. I wouldn’t try solids on the run unless I rely needed to but having used solids on all training rides without issues, why would I suddenly anticipate issues in the race?

A bar and a quarter is about the max calories that can be absorbed per hour.

7 bars over a bike leg, I'm already feeling full. Me Too!

Only 3 or so for the first two hours but still...
PBs are about 210Cals so I’d go with 3 bars and a gel for the first 2 hours to hit 360cal/hr, then switch to just gels and water for the rest of the bike. As much as my appetite for solids may yield, my appetite for gels will certainly do so after a dozen of em...

2) how do you know how many calories that you are taking on? Oh I know that IM discussion here has gone all hippie and **** but at some stage science has to play a part and nutrition is that. I accept that most people will blow their load on the bike and then blame nutrition but for those that get their pacing strategy right a proper nutrition strategy is key. And a B one too.
Agree that science over hippie is a better way of looking at it particularly sub10 type goals onwards. However you gotta go on instinct and what has been tried and tested.

Again why put gels in a bottle?
Small gel flasks make some sort of sense and they can be strapped here or there or stuck in pockets. 15 gels is a lots to strap here and there...

Really from what I have gathered from my rare dip in and out of boards is that even the people at the pointy end of things have no plans and are all hippie about stuff. Probably explains why some of these high hope threads have gone no where. Second to pacing, a nutrition strategy is most important IMHO. That being said most people will have fvcked their IM up massively well before the day and well before a nutrition failure can do anything. (I include myself in this this year as I still have to start training for IMde)

My 2c

Your 2c is always interesting at least, valuable too sometimes – so don’t be a stranger

zico10

tunney wrote: »

2) how do you know how many calories that you are taking on? Oh I know that IM discussion here has gone all hippie and **** but at some stage science has to play a part and nutrition is that. I accept that most people will blow their load on the bike and then blame nutrition but for those that get their pacing strategy right a proper nutrition strategy is key. And a B one too.

tunney wrote: »

Really from what I have gathered from my rare dip in and out of boards is that even the people at the pointy end of things have no plans and are all hippie about stuff. Probably explains why some of these high hope threads have gone no where. Second to pacing, a nutrition strategy is most important IMHO. That being said most people will have fvcked their IM up massively well before the day and well before a nutrition failure can do anything. (I include myself in this this year as I still have to start training for IMde)

My 2c

I seldom check the sub forum that is gear in the A/R/T forum and I came upon this thread by a combination of boredom and chance.
Just before I reply further I want to be 100% sure, am I the 'hippie' at 'the pointy end of things', who in your opinion has/had no plan?
I often think the 'high hope thread' I imagine you are talking about is going nowhere, but I think it being all 'hippie about stuff' and '*****' is only a small reason for this.

shotgunmcos

Zico what was your own nutrition strategy?

zico10

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Zico what was your own nutrition strategy?

I ate a sports bar half an hour before the race started and a gel right before the swim.
Once out of the water I took on 1g of carbohydrate for every kg of my body weight per hour. This translated to 75/76g of carbs that I'd need every hour. On race day this was 3 High-5 gels per hour on the bike, with every third one containing caffeine. This was 69g of carbs, the remainder I got from sports drink.
I took a 750ml water with me on the bike and aero-bottle I had filled with High-5 sports drink. I can't remember exactly how frequent the aid stations were apart, (I think approximately every 30km) and while the bottles might not have been completely drained, I was grabbing a new bottle of either water or High-5 at every aid station. For the first 30 minutes of bike I just drank water and then just drank whatever I felt like drinking after that.
I tried continue this pattern of three gels per hour on the run, the aid stations were fairly regularly placed around the run course and I'd sometimes grab a chunk of banana to nibble on as I ran. I only drank water or sports drinks on the first two laps and on the third I started drinking coke.

mloc123

https://picasaweb.google.com/110296787633200563331/TriAnMhiCXIIIHalfDistanceTriathlonSwimOrganitzationOnly?authkey=Gv1sRgCLWWv9iLwpfOUA#5606583970069463634

I saw this picture and was reminded of this thread

Bambaata

mloc123 wrote: »

https://picasaweb.google.com/110296787633200563331/TriAnMhiCXIIIHalfDistanceTriathlonSwimOrganitzationOnly?authkey=Gv1sRgCLWWv9iLwpfOUA#5606583970069463634

I saw this picture and was reminded of this thread

Those Lucazade bars are bloody savage! Got a few recently when they were reduced to clear in Tesco (eventhough ive never seen them stocked there!!) and was well impressed, not for HIM though so havent gotten anymore.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

mloc123 wrote: »

https://picasaweb.google.com/110296787633200563331/TriAnMhiCXIIIHalfDistanceTriathlonSwimOrganitzationOnly?authkey=Gv1sRgCLWWv9iLwpfOUA#5606583970069463634

I saw this picture and was reminded of this thread

I am sure the sticky tape held everything in place in the wind and rain:p

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

I seldom check the sub forum that is gear in the A/R/T forum and I came upon this thread by a combination of boredom and chance.
Just before I reply further I want to be 100% sure, am I the 'hippie' at 'the pointy end of things', who in your opinion has/had no plan?
I often think the 'high hope thread' I imagine you are talking about is going nowhere, but I think it being all 'hippie about stuff' and '*****' is only a small reason for this.

I don't know you. I know you a polite guy, but thats about the extent of my knowledge really.

I gather that the sub ten thread didn't catch on. I didn't follow it past the second or third page so I amn't going to speculate on why.

zico10

tunney wrote: »

I don't know you. I know you a polite guy, but thats about the extent of my knowledge really.

I gather that the sub ten thread didn't catch on. I didn't follow it past the second or third page so I amn't going to speculate on why.

Thanks, I appreciate your response, but I would just like to go back to your original post. I am not looking to score points off you and maybe I am taking things out of context. Forgive me if I am, but I would say my preparation for the IM stuck very rigidly to a plan. It followed an exact structure from start to finish, I never changed anything in it and the sessions I missed were a tiny percentage of the overall plan.
I freely admit to knowing very little about the scientific side of things and in time I acknowledge I'll have to educate myself on such things to get maximum benefits from my training. With what little knowledge I do have, I would still never recommend someone to approach an ironman and not to have a fully researched and well thought out nutrition strategy. I detailed my approach to nutrition early on in the sub 10 thread and it's the exact same thing I've said to MCOS above.