Keyhole Spay

Kali_Kalika

Hi (appologies if this subject has been done to death!)

My pup is going to be 6 months old this month, so its time to get her spayed. For many many reasons that I'm not going to get into on a forum when I'm just looking for information/experiences. I'm looking to get her the Keyhole Spay as its less of an ordeal (for all concerned!) Has anyone gone through the Keyhole Spay experience with their dog (or pet?)? Also has anyone had any experiences with Paul Kelly in Ratoath, Meath? He is offering the Keyhole Spay and that is the only one that is local to me, so that's where I'd be most likely taking her, so just wondering if anyone has any info or experiences with this Vet or the Keyhole procedure.

Thanks in advance for any info that anyone can share

dvet

Hi, I'm a vet and I have to say that I'm not even sure what you mean by a keyhole spay. Most ordinary spays are done using an impressively small incision anyway - a couple of cm long, which is small when you consider that the surgeon has to be able to get their fingers/instruments into the incision, and of course, to be able to take the uterus and ovaries out through that incision as well.

Whereas true Keyhole surgery (Laparascopic surgery) involves making 2-3 tiny incisions, only big enough to pass in a camera (through one hole) and long handled instruments (through the others). The surgeon then operates from outside of the patient, while the camera shows him what his instruments are doing on the inside. In veterinary surgery, at least in Ireland/Europe, keyhole surgery is usually reserved for orthopaedic operations e.g. surgeries involving joints etc.

It wouldn't really be possible to do a true keyhole surgery for a spay- as I mentioned above, you need to be able to get the uterus and ovaries physically out of the body, so you would need to make an incision of a couple of cm's anyway.

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding what you mean by a keyhole spay though. I would find it hard to believe that there's any vet in Ireland claiming to do a laparascopic spay, so he's probably referring to an ordinary spay, being done through an impressively small incision?! If so, you should know that all vets can do this.

golden8

I have done a search on this forum and found that there has been a mention of this type of operation

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71803924

If you go to post no. 7 they mention about a vet in cork. Having said that I know nothing about them or the procedure.

dvet

Edit: Ahhh, googled keyhole spay, I see that it is possible if you do an ovariectomy (ovaries only) rather than an ovariohysterectomy (ovaries and uterus removed, the most common type of spay). This does make a bit more sense if we're talking about keyhole surgery, because the ovaries are only pea sized, so would fit out through a small incision.

I'm surprised that there are vets in Ireland offering this though, I've heard of ovariectomy-only spays but they're certainly not common here... not even commonly discussed!

The only disadvantage with this kind if spay though is that as the uterus is still present, the bitch could still technically get a pyometra in later life - although removing the ovaries (the hormonal stimulus that kicks off most pyos) would make that a much smaller risk anyway.

Go for it if it's something you're interested in Kali, it's an interesting option... although probably expensive!!

Kali_Kalika

Thanks for all of your info. Keyhole Spay is a.k.a known as a Laparoscopic Spay. So you were correct on that. I've done a fair bit of reading into it and due to the tiny incision the healing time is a lot faster, and its recommended if you have an active dog (which I do, to the extreme!) so the 2-4 day healing time is a lot better than the 12-14 day recovery with a normal spay. And also its apparently less stressful on the dogs system as they are not under Anesthetic for as long as they would be with a regular spay. The Anesthetic is what I am most worried about with this procedure, so anything that has her under for a shorter time is much better in my opinion!

The vet that I mentioned in my first post is currently offering the procedure. On the website it says: "Veterinary practice catering for all domestic pets. Specializes in keyhole surgery for spaying cats and dogs." He is the only one of 2 vets offering this in Ireland. And I'd be really interested to know if anyone has had personal experience with this vet, all the reviews I've found about him have been glowing to say the least - but you can never go wrong with checking with a few "real people" instead of glowing internet reviews which can (unfortunately) be edited or removed if they are not glowing enough. So anyones personal experiences would be great information to me now.

I'm going to be phoning the practice this week with my list of questions at hand for them and see what their answers are to those. I'll happily post any information I get from them here if others are interested in this spaying method.

anniehoo

All i know of it is Guide Dog puppies have had it done (im not sure why though), its not very common and alot more expensive. As for Paul Kelly...havent heard anything negative said about him as a vet as far as im aware.

Discodog

Kali_Kalika wrote: »

I'm going to be phoning the practice this week with my list of questions at hand for them and see what their answers are to those. I'll happily post any information I get from them here if others are interested in this spaying method.

Please do as I would be very interested in seeing a comparison. There are big advantages especially in healing time - less time wearing a bloody lampshade !.

Zapperzy

dvet wrote: »

I'm surprised that there are vets in Ireland offering this though, I've heard of ovariectomy-only spays but they're certainly not common here... not even commonly discussed!

The only disadvantage with this kind if spay though is that as the uterus is still present, the bitch could still technically get a pyometra in later life - although removing the ovaries (the hormonal stimulus that kicks off most pyos) would make that a much smaller risk anyway.

I have worked with a vet who does ovariectomy spays, and in another practice I worked in they were interested in changing over to ovariectomy spays, in fact one of the new vets that work there was telling me that where she worked previous carried out ovariectomy's. So I think it's becoming more common now, or it could just be that both vets that I mentioned above that have carried out ovariectomy's were both german so it could just be that that's what's taught in germany.

I asked her about what were the chances of pyometra occuring after an ovariectomy and she told me that it would not occur because the hormones were taken out of the equation. Aren't they more common in America? I would imagine if there were a significant risk of pyo after an ovariectomy they would not be so popular over there?

Jennypops

Hi,

I am from Ratoath and have used Paul Kellys surgery for my dog- it was just a general check up and treatment for ear inflammation but I can highly recommend him. I know lots of people who use him and all speak very highly of him.
He was very gentle with my dog and I could tell straight off he has a real love for animals just in the way he was handling and speaking to him.
Perhaps arrange to go to the clinic to meet him and discuss the operation- but I would definitely recommend Paul as being the best vet in this area.

HTH
J

dvet

Zapperzy wrote: »

it could just be that both vets that I mentioned above that have carried out ovariectomy's were both german so it could just be that that's what's taught in germany.

I think you're right that there was a link with the 2 vets doing those spays and them being German - it is definitely something that's done more often in Europe - it was a French vet who first told me about them!

Zapperzy wrote: »

I asked her about what were the chances of pyometra occuring after an ovariectomy and she told me that it would not occur because the hormones were taken out of the equation. Aren't they more common in America? I would imagine if there were a significant risk of pyo after an ovariectomy they would not be so popular over there?

You're right about the hormones being the cause of the majority of pyos - that's what I actually was trying to say there in my first post! although there is still a small risk of a 'stump pyo' type of situation, it would be rare enough not to be a very major concern.

I like the idea of ovariectomy-only spays, it's an interesting idea. OP, if you do one, let us know what you think of it

Discodog

My Vet is pretty forward thinking & I plan to ask about this procedure. I reckon that it would be very popular. But how would a Vet get trained on the procedure - I don't fancy my dog being the first case !. Also what is the equipment cost ?.

Discodog

Just heard back from vet Paul Kelly in Ratoath. Really helpful in that if I get there early I can be heading back to Galway by lunchtime !. So I could be going for a away day spay.

Big thanks to the OP as I would not of thought of this option in Ireland. Ok it means a 5 hour round trip but no stitches & no lampshade .

FlamingSox

Have recently had my dog spayed (ovariectomy) with abovementioned vet. Found him from reading this thread and everything went well, thank you Kali_Kalika.

CreedonsDogDayc

Tobys vets in Cork off the Kinsale Road Roundabout do keyhole spaying for a very reasonable price.

A few of our daycare doggies had it done and came bounding back to daycare full of beans, and their owners were delighted with how it went.

They take fantastic care of the dogs in there too, ive been to several vets in my time and I've never seen one that take such a hands on approach with the animals, you'll often see dogs recovering from their surgery on a bed in the reception!

Kali_Kalika

To Flaming Sox & DiscoDog (Ps Disodog - love the name!)

Fantastic that you both availed of the service that I brought up! I'm so glad to hear that it went well for you both. I've spoken with them myself and will be making an appointment today to get my pup her keyhole spay. We're both looking forward to the no stitches and lampshade experience! I've been dreading the process for us both and since finding out about this all the worry and dread has been receeding! I'll be posting again once we have the operation complete.

Thanks again to all who posted and commented

boomerang

Our vet does bitch spays and cat spays using this technique. She's German and it's the norm over there. The incision is through the abdomen and only the ovaries are removed. The recovery is much quicker because the incision is small and the operation is quick, so the animal spends less time under anaesthetic. There's also less post-operative pain.

But as dvet said, there are lots of vets who do a full ovario-hysterectomy with an equally small incision and are so deft from practice that they can do the surgery just as swiftly.

FlamingSox

Best of luck. Just to say that my girl is adult and needed '1' stitch (no lampshade). I received follow-up calls from vet to see how she is recovering as I live a fair distance away.

Kali_Kalika

@Flaming Sox - I live about 40 minutes away so I'm not too far if there are complications. Also, do you mind me asking how long the recovery period was and what the allowed activity levels were? My girls a hyper maniac, so keeping her mellow for the healing process will be the biggest ordeal of it all I think!

I spoke with Paul Kelly today at length and he seems a lovely vet and incredibly educated on this procedure. I have 100% faith in him and this process now after speaking at length with him today. My girl is going in for the ovariectomy (ovaries only) next wednesday. Despite all the confidence I have in the vet and the process, I'll still be glad when we're all on the ride home and its over with!

serenacat

boomerang wrote: »

Our vet does bitch spays and cat spays using this technique. She's German and it's the norm over there. The incision is through the abdomen and only the ovaries are removed. The recovery is much quicker because the incision is small and the operation is quick, so the animal spends less time under anaesthetic. There's also less post-operative pain.

But as dvet said, there are lots of vets who do a full ovario-hysterectomy with an equally small incision and are so deft from practice that they can do the surgery just as swiftly.

Wow this sounds a way less invasive procedure for pets!

Kali_Kalika

serenacat wrote: »

Wow this sounds a way less invasive procedure for pets!

It's far better for them (mentally and physically) because its far less invasive. There are currently only 2 vets in Ireland offering this type of spay. There's one in Cork (appologies I don't know the name of him/the practice) and there's one in Meath (the one I've been discussing in this thread). Overall, across the world, this type of spay is getting more and more popular, so I'm quite suprised that only 2 have gone on to train themselves into this type of operation.

I spoke with Vet Kelly at length yesterday and he seems incredibly informed on the process that he does, was telling me about all the different cases that he's had - with typical keyhole spays there are 2 incisions and he has gotten skilled enough now to only require one and he advises that his incisions are very small usually only requiring 1 or 2 stitches, so then there is no need for a "bucket" on their head afterwards, and because the surgical site is so small there isn't much trauma so the recovery time is far far less than in a regular spay. So all in all its a much much better situation for the pet and human to be in!

I have an appointment next week to have my little girl done she'll be getting the keyhole spay for the ovariectomy (ovaries only) and I'll certainly post all info and details I have after the spay about the process and in time after that I'll post about the recovery time, etc etc

So far, I cannot recommend the vet or this process enough!

CreedonsDogDayc

Kali_Kalika wrote: »

There are currently only 2 vets in Ireland offering this type of spay. There's one in Cork (appologies I don't know the name of him/the practice) and there's one in Meath (the one I've been discussing in this thread).

Vet in Cork is Toby's Vet (also known as South Vet as it's right by South Doc). I know of three dogs that have been spayed this way by Tobys vets and all owners and dogs delighted with the results!!



On another note, Keyhole Spaying is another great counter-argument against those that don't want to neuter their dogs as they don't want them to have the big operation.

piperh

My girl was spayed normally (i assume) last friday and only had 2 stitches put in, by saturday she was back to normal and by sunday had managed to split a stitch but the wound was fine and did not need restitching.

Discodog

A "normal" spay involves two layers of stitches & it is not unknown for the inner stitches to fail. A friend of mine nearly lost their Labrador because the internal stitches broke & she bled internally.

A keyhole spay is totally different & in time it will become the norm. I will be able to arrive at the Vet at 9.30am & be heading home before lunch. I could never do that with a full spay. The lack of stitches means that she will not need constant monitoring or a lampshade so I will not need to take time off.

But more than any of this is the fact that it will be a much nicer experience for my dog. There is a world of difference between a keyhole op to remove the ovaries & a full hysterectomy which involves cutting muscle.

serenacat

Good luck Kali hope your pet recovers well :-) Sounds like it is worth the journey to Meath to me! I'll remember this for my next dog/cat

piperh

Discodog wrote: »

A "normal" spay involves two layers of stitches & it is not unknown for the inner stitches to fail. A friend of mine nearly lost their Labrador because the internal stitches broke & she bled internally.

A keyhole spay is totally different & in time it will become the norm. I will be able to arrive at the Vet at 9.30am & be heading home before lunch. I could never do that with a full spay. The lack of stitches means that she will not need constant monitoring or a lampshade so I will not need to take time off.

But more than any of this is the fact that it will be a much nicer experience for my dog. There is a world of difference between a keyhole op to remove the ovaries & a full hysterectomy which involves cutting muscle.

Ah thanks discodog i must admit i do tend to trust my vet a bit to much and never question them so probably don't get all the info. Surprising really as when i took pups in for first injection they gave one that was out of date and i only noticed when i was reading her book that evening. Poor thing had to wait 2 wks and start all over again.

Tobyvet

Hi, I'm Eamon the vet at Toby Veterinary Clinic in Cork. In mid-January we carried out the first Laparoscopic Ovariectomy in Ireland on Holly, a lovely little Bichon, since then we have operated on 38 dogs using this method and the results are truly spectacular. The dogs are up playing in reception half an hour after surgery and they even jump up on their owners when they arrive to collect them. When I contact owners the day following surgery they tell me you would think the dog had nothing done. Take a look at the video "Comparing Laparoscopic to Open Spay Procedure" on Tobyvet.com and check out my video of a recent spay on YouTube - " Laparoscopic Ovariectomy - Toby-Vet Cork". The procedure is minimally invasive, less painful and has a rapid recovery. Some vets carry out an open spay (ovariohysterectomy) thru small incisions and refer to it as keyhole but it does not have the advantages of Laparoscopy in that the tissues are still handled and the ovarian ligament has to be stretched or broken which is what causes the pain. With laparoscopy two very small incisions (5mm each) are made in the body wall, one for the camera and the other for a sealing/cutting instrument to resect the ovaries. The muscle layer only needs one stitch and the skin incision is so small it only need to be glued. Ovariectomy (whether open spay or laparoscopically) has the same benefits as Ovariohysterectomy (removing the uterus as well) in that it reduces the incidence of some cancers and dogs will NOT get pyometra or stump pyometra after an ovariectomy unless there was pre-existing pyometra or an ovarian remnant was left at surgery. The uterus in the absence of hormones is completely redundant and becomes a thin fibrous band, in fact it is difficult to find when you go back in with a camera even 6 months after ovariectomy, it's as if they are born without a uterus! Ovariectomy as an open procedure is a big step in the right direction as removing less tissue causes less discomfort, doing so laparoscopically is much better again. I hope that clients will demand ovariectomy as opposed to ovarihysterectomy and that laparoscopic ovariectomy will become the procedure of choice for neutering as it has become for a whole range of human surgeries. I find it heartwarming that people are willing to travel so far for the love of their furry friend.

FlamingSox

Kali Kalika. I understand your concern, believe me I was worried to bits also. My girl is a 2 yr old Boxer. Very energetic and needs lots of exercise. She had the procedure last Wednesday. We arrived at 10.00am and were on our way home by 1.15pm once vet was happy with her recovery.

I was doubly concerned because boxers can sometimes react badly to a particular sedative. Paul talked me through the sedative and gas he uses and my concerns were eased.

She was quite uncomfortable on the Wed, and part of Thurs, but picked up well by Thurs evening. I was told not to walk her for 4/5 days and I've managed to follow those orders. Not as difficult as I thought it would be.

Over the last few days we have had to have a few games of hide and seek with her toys in the garden and catch also. We'll be back out walking tomorrow (taking care not to snag her stitch) :-) I'll be taking her back to vet either late this week or early next week to have her stitch removed.

Hope the above helps a bit.

Discodog

FlamingSox wrote: »

I'll be taking her back to vet either late this week or early next week to have her stitch removed.

I was under the impression from Eamon's post that the only stitch was internal. Also Paul emailed me to say that there was no requirement for a lampshade which implies no external stitches.

Kali_Kalika

Discodog wrote: »

I was under the impression from Eamon's post that the only stitch was internal. Also Paul emailed me to say that there was no requirement for a lampshade which implies no external stitches.

When I spoke with Paul he also advised me that there would be no lampshade as in the "worst case" senario he has to make the incision slightly bigger it may need a stitch or 2 but because they are just the outside stitch it wouldn't be a huge issue if the stitch came out (he mentioned this in regards to the dog chewing/licking/nibbling it out) as they were just a final precaution. So, I think the stitch situation really goes by a dog by dog basis. Paul advised me that the size of the incision would depend on the size of the ovaries, if they're bigger than usual/expected he has to make the incision big enough to remove them, so a smaller set of ovaries would result in a smaller incision. If he has to make it bigger then there would be a few stitches involved. That's all based on what he advised me when I spoke with him, I was talking with him quite awhile, so between that and all my reading and video watching online - I feel I'm quite informed on it and have had any/all questions that I can think of answered. One thing I didn't ask him the day I spoke with him was about activity levels - but I plan on doing that when I drop my girl Kali off on wednesday.

On a side note - thanks to the Toby Vet in Cork who also posted on this link. I think its really great the few of us (and the one professional!) are getting all the facts, opinions and everything out there - hopefully this will encourage this process to become standard and make the whole spaying process that bit easier for everyone! I didn't think when I posted this thread it would get much attention or comment as the procedure seemed so unknown here! So I'm glad that we've all banded together and gotten this issue under some spot light! Thanks muchly to everyone who has commented or even just read the posts and learned something from it! :D:D:D:D

Discodog

The level of ignorance is worrying. I met a local Vet, that I know, of very high repute & with a big practice. He had not heard of keyhole spaying but made great play of his ability to do a normal spay via a small 2cm incision.

I am asking local Vets because I don't want to go to Dublin & then discover that a local Vet is about to offer this service.

If Eamon is reading this can you give a guide to the investment cost of purchasing equipment & how can a Vet train - I would be a bit nervous if one of my dogs was the "guinea pig" ?. :eek:

Lizard_Moon

Most vets are very quick at routine spays- non pregnant, no infection etc. The same anaesthetics would be used regardless of technique as general anaesthesia is required for spay surgery.
The length of the anaesthetic is determined by the skill of the surgeon in the technique they are using and the individual dog breed and size.
Your local vets are not trying to lead people astray by not offering ' keyhole spays'. True laprascopic (keyhole) spays require specialist equipment and extensive training.
There are complications possible with all types of spays either before, during or after the surgery.
Fair dues to the vets offering alternatives but new doesn't mean better in all cases!
(Ducks head down awaiting possible abuse :D)