Keyhole Spay

Discodog

I have done some pretty extensive research & I cannot find any negatives for keyhole spaying but I can find many positives. My old Vet in the UK, who I would totally trust, has started keyhole spaying & he is convinced that it will become the norm. The only time that he does a normal, or as he calls it an "old fashioned spay" is for exceptional medical reasons. So I do believe that it is a better technique.

I am not suggesting that local Vets are leading me or anyone else astray. I was surprised at the lack of knowledge on the subject which suggests that it is not about to be adopted soon. I would encourage Vets to be forward thinking & offer it as a service. Clearly the two Irish Vets have no regrets & are gaining additional business. To me it is worth a five hour return trip, fuel, & the €100 additional charge. I also believe that many clients would pay the extra when they are made aware of the benefits. I would hope that Vets will not dis keyhole spays in an attempt to prevent clients going elsewhere.

But it also raises the issue of Irish Vets being up to date & willing to offer new or pioneering treatments. I want Irish Vets to be leaders not followers.

FlamingSox

Discodog wrote: »

I was under the impression from Eamon's post that the only stitch was internal. Also Paul emailed me to say that there was no requirement for a lampshade which implies no external stitches.

I'm no expert, I only know what I've experienced recently. My dog did not need a buster collar and she has one stitch! It may depend (as someone else mentioned previously) on the size of the dog or the individuals ovaries as to whether a stitch or two is required? Personally, I don't have an issue with her having a stitch.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by it costing you E100 more. I didn't think there was much of a price difference between a "standard" spay and laparoscopic spay.

Lizard_Moon

Tobyvet in Cork is offering a specialised service with laproscopic OVE. He is using equipment that many practices wouldn't have and in the present climate couldn't afford. Eamon is offering something new which is great and is real keyhole surgery.

I don't know what Paul Kelly in Rathoath is offering as his website mentions only traditional OVH thru a small hole. However I have no direct experience with him.

Most small animal vets can do OVH/OVE thru a small hole-I can't so I delegate them

The reference below compares removal of ovaries only (OVE) and traditional spay (OVH). I can't see much difference in most dogs as the uterus is the easiest bit to remove.

http://www.drjaffe.com/refId,22406/refDownload.pml

Final note to Discodog- I wouldn't transport my dog that far after a General Anaesthetic. Also will your local vet be happy to provide the emergency aftercare to someone else's surgery if there are complications? Hopefully there are none but I like a healthy dose of pessimism to be safe

Tobyvet

Thanks Lizard Moon for posting the link, I like the conclusion -" making OVE
the preferred method of gonadectomy in the healthy bitch". I think the benefits of OVE over OVH are not only the fact that you are removing less tissue thru a smaller incision but also that the incision can be made closer to the ovaries necessitating less stretching/tearing of the ovarian ligament which is the most painful part of any spay. With laparoscopy there is no stretching or tearing of the ovarian ligament as it is sealed inside the body, the whole procedure is virtually bloodless.

Discodog the set-up costs for laparoscopy are expensive €25-40K and training is available in the UK. At the moment we are charging the same price as a conventional spay but normally a laparoscopic OVE would cost €90 more than a conventional OVH because of the expense of equipment and cost of replacing it.

On another note we have had owners travel long distances to avail of laparoscopic OVE and because we can thoroughly check everything with the camera before we close, the chance of complications is miniscule.

Kali Kalika thanks for raising this issue and starting the thread and all the best on Wednesday, your dog is in great hands, I know Paul Kelly personally, he's a good guy and a great surgeon.:)

Discodog

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Tobyvet in Cork is offering a specialised service with laproscopic OVE. He is using equipment that many practices wouldn't have and in the present climate couldn't afford. Eamon is offering something new which is great and is real keyhole surgery.

I don't know what Paul Kelly in Rathoath is offering as his website mentions only traditional OVH thru a small hole. However I have no direct experience with him.

Most small animal vets can do OVH/OVE thru a small hole-I can't so I delegate them

Final note to Discodog- I wouldn't transport my dog that far after a General Anaesthetic. Also will your local vet be happy to provide the emergency aftercare to someone else's surgery if there are complications? Hopefully there are none but I like a healthy dose of pessimism to be safe

I would say that, in today's climate, the investment makes a lot of sense in that it makes a practice stand out & offers something different. You imply that the recession is affecting Vets yet two local practices have recently expanded & opened new surgeries.

You are being rather unfair to Paul Kelly. The wording on his website is as follows:

"Neutering of all species; we administer pain relief to each patient prior to surgery and provide follow up tablet form. Our surgical wounds are remarkably small to further minimise discomfort for the patient and we rarely need to supply a restrictive Elizabethan collar to patients as a result."

Whilst it doesn't mention keyhole he has confirmed to me personally that it is a a proper Laparoscopic spay. He has also confirmed that a two & a half hour, post surgery drive poses no problem. Of course I would prefer a shorter journey - I would be heading to Cork but it's an even longer drive. However it is a matter of balance as the drive is more than offset by the lesser nature of the surgery. Yes my Vet will provide after care because I am a valued client. I would expect any Vet to do the same.

Your post bears out my concern that, as keyhole spaying spreads, we may have a "bitching" contest between Vets which would be unsavoury & to the detriment of clients & their pets. Hopefully we won't get into a situation where Vets are arguing over wound sizes & giving the impression that a normal spay, via a small wound, is the same as a keyhole spay. Vets should be embracing new techniques.

EDIT: By the way it's great to see some more Vets posting here.

Lizard_Moon

Discodog wrote: »

I would say that, in today's climate, the investment makes a lot of sense in that it makes a practice stand out & offers something different. You imply that the recession is affecting Vets yet two local practices have recently expanded & opened new surgeries.

You are being rather unfair to Paul Kelly. The wording on his website is as follows:

"Neutering of all species; we administer pain relief to each patient prior to surgery and provide follow up tablet form. Our surgical wounds are remarkably small to further minimise discomfort for the patient and we rarely need to supply a restrictive Elizabethan collar to patients as a result."

Whilst it doesn't mention keyhole he has confirmed to me personally that it is a a proper Laparoscopic spay. He has also confirmed that a two & a half hour, post surgery drive poses no problem. Of course I would prefer a shorter journey - I would be heading to Cork but it's an even longer drive. However it is a matter of balance as the drive is more than offset by the lesser nature of the surgery. Yes my Vet will provide after care because I am a valued client. I would expect any Vet to do the same.

Your post bears out my concern that, as keyhole spaying spreads, we may have a "bitching" contest between Vets which would be unsavoury & to the detriment of clients & their pets. Hopefully we won't get into a situation where Vets are arguing over wound sizes & giving the impression that a normal spay, via a small wound, is the same as a keyhole spay. Vets should be embracing new techniques.

EDIT: By the way it's great to see some more Vets posting here.

The recession has hit many veterinary practices as costs always rise and incomes do go down to a degree. Of course practices will expand if the finances are available. Keyhole spay equipment would not be a priority in most multivet practices as the costs of training all vets would be high and there are plenty of cool diagnostic equipment available that would be of more use.

Paul Kelly didn't mention on his website that it was a laproscopic spay, as in your quotes above, so I didn't want an standard OVE getting confused with a laproscopic OVE. I was concerned it was just a claim to a small spay wound on his website which is exactly what you were saying you didn't want to happen.

As regards out of hours cover for your spay, I am sure your vet will provide your dog with excellent care but it is the operating surgeons responsibility.

Discodog

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

As regards out of hours cover for your spay, I am sure your vet will provide your dog with excellent care but it is the operating surgeons responsibility.

Incorrect. The Hippocratic oath makes it every Vet's responsibility. One could argue that the oath also puts a requirement on Vets to offer the best standards of care.

I think that avoiding major surgery for potentially thousands of dogs is "cool" & it can also be offset by charging more. It will be a pity if Irish Vets offer excuses rather than better treatment. I applaud the fact that two Vets have decided to do what is best for their patients rather than for their profits.

Lizard_Moon

Discodog wrote: »

Incorrect. The Hippocratic oath makes it every Vet's responsibility. One could argue that the oath also puts a requirement on Vets to offer the best standards of care.

I think that avoiding major surgery for potentially thousands of dogs is "cool" & it can also be offset by charging more. It will be a pity if Irish Vets offer excuses rather than better treatment. I applaud the fact that two Vets have decided to do what is best for their patients rather than for their profits.

Vets earn nothing like what doctors earn- maybe near 10% if even that. We carry all the overheads for our business. Our margins are very small as can be seen by Tobyvet only charging 90 euro more for an investment of over 25-40k.

I think that investing in our ability to treat and diagnose injury and disease is a good investment. Yes it would be nice to afford a laparoscope and all the training involved but not at the loss of the ultrasound, x-ray machine, in-house bloods machine, critical care facilities, tonopen, blood pressure monitor, orthopaedic equipment, trained nurses, multiple vets etc etc

As a business we cannot spend money we don't have and have to prioritise where we do spend it, especially in these uncertain times.

I have no problem offering Ovary removal only to clients who want that but I cannot afford to offer what Tobyvet offers and still have a practice, never mind a profit.

Kali_Kalika

So here we are all done with the key hole spay. And all I can say its been a great experience, well as can be expected for surgery!

Took her in yesterday (wednesday) at 11am and by 3:30 I'd gotten the call to pick her up any time I wanted to. Such a short time - I was suprised by this. When they led her out you could tell she was very groggy and "hung over" by the drugs but she still managed to wag furiously when she saw me and to lick my face to pieces as well. So she was in good form post-op. The incision/scar is so small! I was even more suprised by that than I expected. I knew he did fantastic work so it would be small, but I didn't realize how small it would actually be. When we got home last night Kali mostly just wanted to sleep, would turn her head away from food and water when I offered them to her. She had gotten sick 3 times (twice in the vets office before we left and once again when we got home) but that's quite usual with anesthetics so that wasn't really a worry or anything unusual and the first two were the worst, so I think that got most of the nasties out of the system. But today WOW - she is literally 100% back to her normal, happy wanting to play self!! Its amazing - I couldn't believe it when I woke up this morning to find her there at the ready, I was expecting she might still feel a bit tender and just want to sleep more today - but nope! She's in flying form and ready to get back to her normal life again!

Post-op instructions were mainly no baths or swimming (normal post-op rules) and no jumping or running. I have let her do the stairs herself, she seems happier with taking them slowly (I walk up/down the stairs next to her, holding the collar to make sure she goes slowly so as not to tear the stitch) and I lifted her in and out of the jeep yesterday as its quite a jump. I took her for a very slow and easy walk around the block this morning, letting her walk slowly (at my insistance not hers!) and sniffing alot aswell so it would feel longer and more busy for her. And she was quite happy with that then and was content to settle in her bed and chew some of the vast variety of chew bones that I got for her to keep her quiet and busy.

She's in such great form today its amazing, you can tell at moments she still feels a bit tender in the belly from how she lies down and positions herself but its nothing compared to what it would have been with a traditional spay. On the walk I met someone and they were petting her and giving the usual compliments and they couldn't believe she'd had surgery less than 24 hours ago!

Paul did such an amazing job with her and you can tell that he loves animals and dogs to pieces from how he was speaking to her and handling her - you can tell he's a fantastic, genuine vet. I cannot recommend him or his practice of the key-hole spay enough. Its so fantastic that she's up and about and back to herself completely today, you wouldn't know she'd had anything done! From my research prior to this I was finding that most spays were being done for around 120 euro (give or take, a lot was depending on the weight of the dog) and for Kali who is just under 15k that was the price range. Paul charged me only 160 for the whole procedure, which was amazing. Such fantastic work for such a low charge! Its a once off payment in your dogs life so with such good after results, I cant recommend it enough!!

I also recieved a call from Paul personally this morning to check in on her. I was amazed by this. In the past I have recieved follow up phone calls, but never from the vet personally, usually desk staff or students did the follow up. So that really shows dedication and care on his part to go out of his way to give the follow up phone call personally. He's asked to see her again in 8 days to check on the incision and to see how things are then. He also gave me his card before we left last night and pointed out his mobile number and said to give it a call any time of day or night if there were any problems. I'm aware this is standard proceedure, but still it felt good to have it should anything go wrong.

If anyone is considering this procedure for their dog and have any questions - please feel free to ask me anything at all and if anyone is looking for somewhere to get it done - again my best recommendation would be for Paul Kelly in Ratoath as he was fantastic.

ISDW

Kali_Kalika wrote: »

So here we are all done with the key hole spay. And all I can say its been a great experience, well as can be expected for surgery!

Took her in yesterday (wednesday) at 11am and by 3:30 I'd gotten the call to pick her up any time I wanted to. Such a short time - I was suprised by this. When they led her out you could tell she was very groggy and "hung over" by the drugs but she still managed to wag furiously when she saw me and to lick my face to pieces as well. So she was in good form post-op. The incision/scar is so small! I was even more suprised by that than I expected. I knew he did fantastic work so it would be small, but I didn't realize how small it would actually be. When we got home last night Kali mostly just wanted to sleep, would turn her head away from food and water when I offered them to her. She had gotten sick 3 times (twice in the vets office before we left and once again when we got home) but that's quite usual with anesthetics so that wasn't really a worry or anything unusual and the first two were the worst, so I think that got most of the nasties out of the system. But today WOW - she is literally 100% back to her normal, happy wanting to play self!! Its amazing - I couldn't believe it when I woke up this morning to find her there at the ready, I was expecting she might still feel a bit tender and just want to sleep more today - but nope! She's in flying form and ready to get back to her normal life again!

Post-op instructions were mainly no baths or swimming (normal post-op rules) and no jumping or running. I have let her do the stairs herself, she seems happier with taking them slowly (I walk up/down the stairs next to her, holding the collar to make sure she goes slowly so as not to tear the stitch) and I lifted her in and out of the jeep yesterday as its quite a jump. I took her for a very slow and easy walk around the block this morning, letting her walk slowly (at my insistance not hers!) and sniffing alot aswell so it would feel longer and more busy for her. And she was quite happy with that then and was content to settle in her bed and chew some of the vast variety of chew bones that I got for her to keep her quiet and busy.

She's in such great form today its amazing, you can tell at moments she still feels a bit tender in the belly from how she lies down and positions herself but its nothing compared to what it would have been with a traditional spay. On the walk I met someone and they were petting her and giving the usual compliments and they couldn't believe she'd had surgery less than 24 hours ago!

Paul did such an amazing job with her and you can tell that he loves animals and dogs to pieces from how he was speaking to her and handling her - you can tell he's a fantastic, genuine vet. I cannot recommend him or his practice of the key-hole spay enough. Its so fantastic that she's up and about and back to herself completely today, you wouldn't know she'd had anything done! From my research prior to this I was finding that most spays were being done for around 120 euro (give or take, a lot was depending on the weight of the dog) and for Kali who is just under 15k that was the price range. Paul charged me only 160 for the whole procedure, which was amazing. Such fantastic work for such a low charge! Its a once off payment in your dogs life so with such good after results, I cant recommend it enough!!

I also recieved a call from Paul personally this morning to check in on her. I was amazed by this. In the past I have recieved follow up phone calls, but never from the vet personally, usually desk staff or students did the follow up. So that really shows dedication and care on his part to go out of his way to give the follow up phone call personally. He's asked to see her again in 8 days to check on the incision and to see how things are then. He also gave me his card before we left last night and pointed out his mobile number and said to give it a call any time of day or night if there were any problems. I'm aware this is standard proceedure, but still it felt good to have it should anything go wrong.

If anyone is considering this procedure for their dog and have any questions - please feel free to ask me anything at all and if anyone is looking for somewhere to get it done - again my best recommendation would be for Paul Kelly in Ratoath as he was fantastic.

Thats fantastic that it went so well, and you and Kali are so happy with it:D But, can I just say that I have had a lot of bitches spayed 'traditionally' and most of them have been full of life and raring to go again the next day, I've had to keep them quiet and stop them jumping around. I've also only had 2 bitches vomit after spaying, most of them are sleepy when they come home, eat a light meal that evening, sleep all night and then want to play in the morning.

I'm not trying to belittle your experience, please don't think that, but as most people won't have the option to have this surgery done, I just wanted to put my experiences with traditional spaying out there as well, which actually sound very, very similar to your keyhole experience.

I hope she continues to thrive, and well done for going out of your way to do what you feel is best for your dog:)

Discodog

I would agree with ISDW in that mine have recovered quickly from "normal" spays. However the big difference is that they have had to wear a "lampshade" & be closely supervised for 10 days - until the stitches can be removed. Also no matter how quickly they appear to recover they have had far more complex & extensive surgery than with a keyhole spay.

Obviously a "normal" spay is way better than no spay but I believe that a keyhole spay is easily the best option. We will only get the option of keyhole spaying by asking for it & convincing some of our Vets to make the investment.

In the meantime I consider the drive to Dublin to be well worth it & I reckon that my dog will agree.

Kali_Kalika

(Having laptop issues and cannot quote at the moment)

To ISDW

I never really said this was unique or special in any way. I did say all along that I would give a full report back on the experience that I had and that is all that I did. I'm aware that vomiting is common but not neccessary to happen after surgery (as I believe I said in my post). I just had a very good experience with this particular vet and this particular operation. I personally feel that the more common that this gets, the more reachable (financially and locality wise) it will become for humans and pets alike. As Discodog said as well - the only way that will happen is to get the information out there and get people requesting it. I do value your post as you also gave good information, so thank you for adding to the content of this thread.

ISDW

Kali_Kalika wrote: »

(Having laptop issues and cannot quote at the moment)

To ISDW

I never really said this was unique or special in any way. I did say all along that I would give a full report back on the experience that I had and that is all that I did. I'm aware that vomiting is common but not neccessary to happen after surgery (as I believe I said in my post). I just had a very good experience with this particular vet and this particular operation. I personally feel that the more common that this gets, the more reachable (financially and locality wise) it will become for humans and pets alike. As Discodog said as well - the only way that will happen is to get the information out there and get people requesting it. I do value your post as you also gave good information, so thank you for adding to the content of this thread.

Sorry, I did think about removing my post last night, as it was actually Discodog that I should have replied to, as he seems to have an agenda on this, and vets.

Hopefully this will become the norm for spaying here, but as its so difficult to get a lot of dog owners to get their animals spayed/neutered at all, having an additional cost to it, at the moment I feel could be detrimental to the stray dog population.

Do these vets do keyhole neutering for males as well?

DD - I have very rarely had to use lampshades on my dogs with traditional spaying. I know you have the right intentions about vets investing etc to do stuff like this, but you also know how difficult it is to get dog owners to get their dogs spayed/neutered. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable with transporting a dog that far after surgery, I think you really would be in the minority on that one, with the worry of the transport, and the extra cost added on to the already dearer procedure.

FlamingSox

Kali Kalika, am delighted that things went well for your girl and that she is recovering well also. Just wanted to mention to some of the other posters that there is not a huge difference in cost for this procedure vs 'standard' spay. In fact, I paid E10 more than it would have cost me to have had the standard spay locally. It is also great to hear from vets on this thread - I definitely understand more now than I did when I joined this thread. Thanks to all. To DD - I had a 50 minute drive home (I know not as far as you). Just take it slow and easy and all should be fine.

Kali_Kalika

(still having issues with quoting on a few websites, this being one of them!)

@ISDW - I'm glad you didn't remove your post. This thread was intended for information, opinions and experiences and you have certainly added to all of the above. When I first started researching this issue I ended up with all information and no opinions, so I'm glad anyone else considering this operation now has this thread to add to their decision making process. I'm fully aware aswell the difficulty in getting cooperation with the overall spaying/neutering process. Some due to cost, some due to laziness (easiest word that popped into my mind & no offense intended!), some due to misinformation, some because they don't want to see their dog "suffer" (was actually told by more than a few people personally that this is why they didn't want to have their dog spayed/neutered, so I know the opinion is out there). That's why when I posted my experience, I tried to cover all of these issues. As I said, many times I was quoted 120euro for a normal spay (all depended on the dogs weight, so it was an approxomite cost) and Paul Kelly quoted me 160euros for the key hole spay, so I mentioned that to show that it wasn't really that much more expensive than a normal spay and also mentioned that its a once off investment to your dogs lifetime health. As many have pointed out, the "high" cost at the moment is due to lack of vets doing the proceedure, if it becomes a bit more "main stream" the cost will go down and the procedure will also gain in popularity. The only way the above things will happen is if anyone who has gone to the extent of travelling to one of the participating vets and the cost and saying what a great experience it is - others will want this done as well. I mean, if there are people willing to pay to have their dogs nails painted on a weekly basis - then surely - they would be willing to pay this once off cost for their dogs health. (hopefully!)

I'll be honest - I have no idea about key hole neutering. My assumption would be that it is certainly possible but no idea if the vets who do key hole spays offer it. Perhaps the vet who already posted on here will be able to advise you and others on key hole neutering. I have a female at the moment, so my research was focused purely on the spaying and not on neutering.

I know your last comment was intended for Discodog but if you don't mind I'd like to comment as well. I too was concerned about the travel time in transporting my girl aswell, granted it was only 40 minutes in the car (with traffic) so it wasn't that extreme but the Vet Kelly seemed to have no concern at all with the travel time involved between his surgery and my location. He just advised due to me having a jeep that I lift her in and out of the jeep instead of letting her jump (understandably! and had already planned on that myself) and in my case - my girl traveled just fine afterwards. I had laid my jacket into the back of the jeep for her to curl up on (nice and soft and smelled comfortingly of Mommy for her!) - and I lifted her into the jeep and she sat on my jacket as I closed the back doors (her usual routine) and as I went to get into the car myself, she just curled up on my jacket and was asleep by the time I'd reversed out of the carpark and she didn't stir the whole way home. But also, she's a really good in the car normally anyways, so this all wasn't too out of the usual for herself. Normally she will sit in the back and look around for a little while and then go asleep - but with all that the day held for her she just went to sleep. I did get a handful of paper towels before I left the vets as she had been sick in there and I knew I didn't have anything like that in the car so I did ask for a few of them in case it happened again on the way home - but nothing was needed. As you said to Discodog that he/she would be in the minority with choosing to transport that far. For me, personally, if Vet Kelly was on Mars, I'd be gassing up the rocket car to take my girl to Mars to get it done there. No where would be too far when it came to my dogs health and well being. I've travelled far longer for less previously when it came to her health, so no way would I stop at something like distance. Again, this is just me personally and in no way would I expect the same of anyone else, I'd certainly honour it in those who did - but no expectations here.

Overall - I'm so glad that this thread has evolved the way it has and given so many opinions and experiences and information. All of these things I had very little of when I began this process, so its great to know that anyone who is considering it now has this thread to inform themselves even further and it may educate many others who don't even know the key hole spay is an option.

Discodog

ISDW wrote: »

Discodog that I should have replied to, as he seems to have an agenda on this, and vets.

Who me :eek: ?. Believe it or not I get on with Vets pretty well & I would class my current Vet as a friend. I have had many situations where it has just been me & a Vet, usually between 2am & 6am & with me as acting Vet nurse. My only agenda is that I expect Vets to honour the oath that they made. We all know that some are superb & entered the profession for all the right reasons. We also know from this forum that some fall well below expectations.

As for keyhole spaying, yes I have an agenda in that I am glad that there is a better procedure available & I would like to see it encouraged so that dogs all over Ireland get the benefit. Unfortunately, as usual, Ireland is behind the rest of Europe.

ISDW wrote: »

DD - I have very rarely had to use lampshades on my dogs with traditional spaying. I know you have the right intentions about vets investing etc to do stuff like this, but you also know how difficult it is to get dog owners to get their dogs spayed/neutered. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable with transporting a dog that far after surgery, I think you really would be in the minority on that one, with the worry of the transport, and the extra cost added on to the already dearer procedure.

I have seen enough grief with stitch removal to not risk fitting a lampshade & this particular lady has some history !. Also as you know Greyhound skin is especially thin & tears easily. I see keyhole as a positive in encouraging spaying. It involves far less surgery & aftercare. Many people avoid spaying because they see it as a big operation. Many will be familiar with human keyhole surgery & know that it is often a very simple procedure.

As for the distance, I asked the Vet because he is the expert. He is prepared to arrange the surgery to suit me & as others have stated he is the model of professionalism. He sees no problem. If it were then I would book a hotel as even this is better than having to take a load of time off - unless you fancy some dog sitting ?

She is only going to be spayed once & the effort/expense is tiny compared to what she gives me. Yes I am totally in love with my Greyhound !.

piperh

I've just had a bitch spayed(she had her stitch out on tuesday) and she had only 2 stitches and split one 2 days after the op but she was fine in herself and i got a little coat to cover the other stitch. We had lampshades and i only put them onto them during the night and that was more for my piece of mind.

Personally i think this thread is important because it lets people know there is a choice out there and a few more people might have their animals spayed because its not as intrusive an operation and thats got to be a good thing.:D

Discodog

There won't be more choice unless we encourage Vets to offer the service.

Zapperzy

Testes have to be removed in neutering so keyhole neutering I seriously doubt will ever exist (unless they figure out a way to leave the testes inside and just cut the cords ). Testes are much bigger than ovaries.

Irish veterinary is (according to a nurse I know that has a lot of experience working both here and in the uk) about 10 years behind everywhere else. What can actually be done to close up the gap I'm not really sure, I think a lot has to do with the consumer pushing for better as opposed to the actual practices. You can't really blame them as the average consumer just wants a cheaper procedure and just presumes that there all the same and that x practice is just trying to do them out of pocket as opposed to y practice who is offering a cheaper service. Maybe practices need to educate clients more but I still think the average Farmer Joe Soap who comes in with his collie is not going to really care much about how much better the keyhole procedure is when he can get the same job down down the road cheaper.

I'm not putting the keyhole spay down at all, I would love if more vets started offering it, the first time I even heard about it was on here. If I had a bitch I would definitely consider it.

Anybody know if these 2 practices also offer it for cats?

Lizard_Moon

Cats- from research (online on the sites of vets in Ireland and the
USA who do keyhole) the hole needed to get the camera probe etc in is bigger than the hole vets make in a traditional cat spay so laparoscope not used.

Male dogs- hole is determined by testicle size.

In the UK practices are much better financed due to the population density, and higher rates of pet insurance. They have the population of pets to support a fantastic number of referral practices.
In the past, yes Irish practices were behind but now a days small animal (and horse and cattle) vets are much more experienced and trained to a higher level. We have worked in the UK and further afield (USA, Oz) we have compulsory further education and we have clients who are now educated through TV, the Internet etc regarding what we can offer.
Also we have a supply of highly trained and dedicated Veterinary Nurses who were not available 15 yes ago and the play a huge role in practice development.

Lizard_Moon

Discodog wrote: »

We also know from this forum that some fall well below expections.

Unfortunately, as usual, Ireland is behind the rest of Europe

? Referring to me? As I would be deeply offended by that statement and would be horrified that you would judge me by my limited contributions to this forum.

Legislation is clear who has responsibility for surgical aftercare. I am assuming the vet doing the keyhole surgery has informed you that they will the providing the aftercare and how to contact them out of hours. Unless prior arrangements have been made with your vet.

As a side note routine work financially supports the provision of 24 hr 365 day care to clients.

Small animal veterinary in Ireland is way ahead of a lot of Europe especially on the animal welfare side.

ISDW

Discodog wrote: »

There won't be more choice unless we encourage Vets to offer the service.

No, thats true, but I also think that we need to be realistic. I would much rather encourage people just to get the bitch spayed, at their local vets, than concentrate on changing all vets to keyhole spaying.

Sorry, I meant to multiquote, @ Kali_Kalika, 40 minutes is how long it takes me to get to my vet anyway, so to me thats not a long journey for a vet trip:D

As I said, delighted you did your research and found what you consider to be the best for your pet. I guess as I get dogs neutered/spayed very regularly, I couldn't afford anything extra, or do the extra mileage. I did have to do a 4 hour emergency dash with one of my cats once to Baldoyle, so I'm certainly not against people travelling in emergencies, it was well worth the journey, she had crushed ribs, but was treated fantastically and you wouldn't know anything had happened to her. I have also travelled to Dublin to see an eye specialist for one of my sibes, not an emergency, but someone that was highly recommended by my own vet.

Discodog

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

? Referring to me? As I would be deeply offended by that statement and would be horrified that you would judge me by my limited contributions to this forum.

Legislation is clear who has responsibility for surgical aftercare. I am assuming the vet doing the keyhole surgery has informed you that they will the providing the aftercare and how to contact them out of hours. Unless prior arrangements have been made with your vet.
.

If you look further than your own posts you will see many threads that involve problems with Vets so it is obvious that you do not need to feel deeply offended.

Legislation is irrelevant. If an animal is in distress it is the duty of any Vet to provide care no matter how the distress was caused. You may not accept this but my Vet & other local practices here certainly do.

However you appear to have expressed a view here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056223564

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

My practice offers an excellent service to our clients but don't test on a Sat. I accommodate clients by testing Wed evening for Sat reading.

If a farmer threatened to get another vet over doing a test on a Sat I would say that is fine but we will not be doing any out of hours work for them any more. The farmer can call the tune but I don't have to dance to it!

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

I just get fed up with farmers using certain vets for TB and expecting my practice to do middle of night work for them without us ever having being on their farm, when their own vet refuses to answer their phone.

Your comment got this reply:

huey1975 wrote: »

If the farmers have to listen to this level of ****e from you i am not surprised that so many only call you when they are stuck and cant get anyone else.

Your comments suggest that you will only attend an emergency if the client is totally loyal to you which would be appalling if true.

Lizard_Moon

Every cattle farmer has to have a vet to do their TB testing (routine work financially supporting the practice). Some vets however refuse to offer an emergency service to their clients, which they are legally required to do. This means that other vets have to get up in the middle of the night to attend their emergencies, calvings etc. It is extremely difficult to do a days work, spend a night out of bed followed by another days work.
I, and all the vets in our practice, do attend to emergencies for non-clients to the detriment of our, and our families, health and wellbeing.

In that thread my arguement was that it is extremely unfair to expect people to provide you with a 24 hr service and for you not to be clients of any type of theirs. If you read that thread many other farmer's agree it is poor form to do that. Farming is a business and it is a business service we offer them.

Small animals are not a business for the owner yet I still have to manage my business. Veterinary may be a vocation but our employees and suppliers still want to be paid every month.

We never refuse to treat any animal in an emergency, if we are physically able to do it. We get out of our beds for the RTAs, the sick dogs and the worried owners every time we are called, clients and non clients alike.

My concern was if I was called out to a post keyhole spay that I would not know what particular complications specific to it I would be looking out for if I was not informed before the client went for the surgery. Just keep your vets informed so they can have the research done before hand, not that anyone would hopefully ever need it.

The majority of vets in this country are dedicated professionals who go 'above and beyond' in providing the best possible care to their clients. Any that don't shouldn't have people going to them.

These are my opinions and if they are not acceptable I apologise but to possibly misquote you can't really know another man until you walk a mile in his shoes.

Discodog

My Vet opened about two years ago & was completely new to the area. She has rapidly built up the business & opened a second practice primarily because of her customer service. She often attended emergencies involving clients from other practices & used this to build her reputation. Every client is an opportunity to promote your business.

Some posters here, including me, would of given their eye teeth to become Vets. So whilst we recognise the annoyance of out of hour calls we would love to be in your shoes.

blathfitz

I had my lab spayed yesterday by keyhole surgery by Paul Kelly in Ratoath, Co. Meath. The wound is very small and she does not appear to have any pain. Just a few hours after surgery, she was happy, hungry and ready to play!
Paul Kelly has been treating my animals for the past 12 or 13 years, and I would have no hesitation in recommending him.
The cost of the keyhole spay was no more than a regular spay, so no worries on that front either.

ISDW

Discodog wrote: »

My Vet opened about two years ago & was completely new to the area. She has rapidly built up the business & opened a second practice primarily because of her customer service. She often attended emergencies involving clients from other practices & used this to build her reputation. Every client is an opportunity to promote your business.

Some posters here, including me, would of given their eye teeth to become Vets. So whilst we recognise the annoyance of out of hour calls we would love to be in your shoes.

Why didn't you, or why don't you?

FlamingSox

Excellent Blathfitz - it's great to get more feedback from someone who has experienced the keyhole spay first hand, so to speak. To others, less going off topic and griping would also be nice!!

felis

Hello!

I'am new here and also new in Ireland! I moved here in June this year and got two puppies now. In some month I will get them neutered and I am thankful for this thread!

I'am from Austria. My father was a vet for many years and it is standard to use the keyhole surgery and leave the uterus.
Well to be honest - i was studding veterinary in Vienna - until I got pregnant and they also teach this method as the best.

It has many advantages - not only the small cut.
- No risk of getting an incontinent dog
- no major changes in the character
- no problems with weight etc...

So I'am very happy to find 2 vets who will do this in Ireland and will contact them soon.

Thanks to all of you!

aisher

I am planning on getting my dog spayed early October, I never heard of keyhole spaying. Anyone know if Paul Kelly is the only Vet doing the procedure in Dublin??