Keyhole Spay

DBB

aisher wrote: »

I am planning on getting my dog spayed early October, I never heard of keyhole spaying. Anyone know if Paul Kelly is the only Vet doing the procedure in Dublin??

I heard, but have not confirmed, that there's a vet in drogheda offering this procedure. So reasonably accessible from north Dublin if that's any good to you!

Discodog

aisher wrote: »

I am planning on getting my dog spayed early October, I never heard of keyhole spaying. Anyone know if Paul Kelly is the only Vet doing the procedure in Dublin??

Paul is in Ratoath so pretty close to Drogheda. I have not heard of any other Vets offering this apart from Paul & Toby Vet in Cork. Paul is incredibly helpful. He even offered to do my girl on a Saturday as I have a long journey.

Out of interest why are you looking for someone else ?

Discodog

felis wrote: »

It has many advantages - not only the small cut.
- No risk of getting an incontinent dog
- no major changes in the character
- no problems with weight etc...

Thanks to all of you!

I am rather puzzled by some of these. The procedure involves the removal of the ovaries. I cannot see how any character changes or weight gain would be reduced as they are both related to the hormone output from the ovaries.

As far as I can see the major advantage is the wound size, no requirement for significant internal stitching & a rapid recovery time.

aisher

Discodog wrote: »

Paul is in Ratoath so pretty close to Drogheda. I have not heard of any other Vets offering this apart from Paul & Toby Vet in Cork. Paul is incredibly helpful. He even offered to do my girl on a Saturday as I have a long journey.

Out of interest why are you looking for someone else ?

Rang Paul Kelly today - its €150 for the keyhole surgery which is about the same as the normal spay. I am going to go ahead with him for October - dog will be just over the 5 months which is the age Paul recommends.

Discodog

Could you please come back here & let us know how you get on. This is a relatively new procedure here so any feedback is good.

aisher

Discodog wrote: »

Could you please come back here & let us know how you get on. This is a relatively new procedure here so any feedback is good.

No Problem!

I did ring my own vet and ask if they do this procedure and besides saying No, she also said it was not recommended and if it were her dog she wouldn't due to the possibilty of uterine infection. I have read up on the procedure - pros and cons and I still think the keyhole is the better option since you avoid incontinenent (sp??) problems and the procedure is much simpler. Anyone else get negative opinions from their Vet

subway

Paul spayed our bitch a few weeks back. Fantastic recovery time and no issues.

Fuond him via this thread. Cannot recommend highly enough.

She was back to herself in no time as there was almost no trauma to heal

Discodog

aisher wrote: »

Anyone else get negative opinions from their Vet

My Vet is brilliant (are you reading this at Barna Vet Clinic ). We have had a lot of discussion over this issue & I have given her a lot of info on keyhole. As she pointed out Vets here are trained to remove the Uterus primarily to avoid Pyometra. Keyhole surgery & Ovariectomy aren't considered.

The research clearly shows that the Pyometra risk is significantly reduced once the Ovaries are removed. My Vet is now very open to the idea of keyhole. The other comment that she made was some Vets may claim that they can do a full spay via a small incision. This may sound good however it can restrict the ability to thoroughly check the surrounding area - not a problem with keyhole as you can use the camera.

Discodog

subway wrote: »

She was back to herself in no time as there was almost no trauma to heal

Did she need an external stitch or did he use surgical glue ?

subway

1 extenal stitch

Lilobaggins

aisher wrote: »

I am planning on getting my dog spayed early October, I never heard of keyhole spaying. Anyone know if Paul Kelly is the only Vet doing the procedure in Dublin??

<modsnip> no potential libel please

Lilobaggins

I am not sure why my comment got deleted but it was in no way liable. I felt very conned by what Mr. Kelly was attempting to sell and I see no reason why others shouldn't be educated in what this man is really up to!

star-pants

Lilobaggins wrote: »

I am not sure why my comment got deleted but it was in no way liable. I felt very conned by what Mr. Kelly was attempting to sell and I see no reason why others shouldn't be educated in what this man is really up to!

Boards is subject to libel much like anywhere else. Whilst I understand your concern and upset over the situation, a new signed up account to post a complaint about a vet can be very much taken as libel against the vet/practise in question. Please read the forum charter & don't respond to this post please as it would drag the thread off-topic.

aisher

Lilobaggins wrote: »

I am not sure why my comment got deleted but it was in no way liable. I felt very conned by what Mr. Kelly was attempting to sell and I see no reason why others shouldn't be educated in what this man is really up to!

Now I am concerned If there is any issue about this type of procedure I would like to know - my own vet is against keyhole spaying and to be honest I thought it was more that he was not familiar with the procedure and perhaps a bit behind the times Would it be possible to hear this posters concerns in a private message - I dont want my dog to have a procedure that may cause harm!!

Discodog

I doubt if any other poster has investigated this as much as I have. My Vet was sceptical but she is now very open to the procedure after reviewing the evidence. As explained in the thread the doubts are not about the method but whether it is best to just remove the ovaries or removed the womb plus ovaries.

The old view is that retaining the Womb increases the risk of Pyometra but studies have shown that this is not the case. I have no doubts that the procedure is a huge advance & that there are no disadvantages associated with it. It may be new to Ireland but this technique has been widely used elsewhere for years.

Like Doctors Vets are taught standard methods. The average Vet simply doesn't have to time to research advances in every area of veterinary medicine. Also the set up costs for keyhole are very high & especially in a recession, the returns are slow. It would appear that the two Vets offering keyhole are now not charging a premium over normal spaying.

But I remain convinced that keyhole will eventually become the norm.

I do not wish to go against Starpants request but you should be aware that Lilobaggins was not questioning the procedure. Just read through the whole thread, speak to both Vets that are mentioned as I have done & then make up your mind.

Lilobaggins

aisher wrote: »

Now I am concerned If there is any issue about this type of procedure I would like to know - my own vet is against keyhole spaying and to be honest I thought it was more that he was not familiar with the procedure and perhaps a bit behind the times Would it be possible to hear this posters concerns in a private message - I dont want my dog to have a procedure that may cause harm!!

Basically what I am saying is that it is not keyhole surgery. Its a small incision and thats all. Your own vet could probably perform it (any vet worth their salt can) and therefore you are not buying into the idea that it is keyhole. A normal spay is safer and if your own Vet uses gas instead of an injection as an anesthetic then you are most definitely better to follow their advice instead of travelling to County Meath. I wouldnt think that he is behind the times seeing as how no one in Ireland is performing keyhole surgery... the equiptment simply isn't here and from what I've read up there is no benefits to it at all with regards to spaying animals... Certainly if it takes your dog longer to recover than if you got it done with your own vet.

Tobyvet

Lilobaggins wrote: »

no one in Ireland is performing keyhole surgery... the equiptment simply isn't here and from what I've read up there is no benefits to it at all with regards to spaying animals...

Hi Lilobaggins,
Just to let you know, the equipment is here for Laparoscopic Spay and there are huge benefits for the dog( i.e. less pain, faster recovery, less tissue removed, smaller incisions and better visualisation). We performed the first Laparoscopic spay in Ireland back in January and we are absolutely delighted with the result as are the owners, they are amazed with the rapid recovery.

emmaroddy

aisher wrote: »

Now I am concerned If there is any issue about this type of procedure I would like to know - my own vet is against keyhole spaying and to be honest I thought it was more that he was not familiar with the procedure and perhaps a bit behind the times Would it be possible to hear this posters concerns in a private message - I dont want my dog to have a procedure that may cause harm!!

I've been following this keyhole spay debate with interest here on boards.ie - which I picked up whilst googling; I felt it may be of some help to other pet owners who may be considering the procedure; and to clarify something I found slightly offensive that was posted about my local vet Paul Kelly in Co. Meath. Firstly, I have had two cats and one small dog neutered / spayed by Mr Kelly using the keyhole procedure. I have had many cats and dogs over some 50years and I highly recommend you give this a try. It is a remarkable procedure, the recovery time is almost instant, not least, to finally dispense with hideous "Elizabethan Collars" was such a relief as there is only 1 tiny stitch. Mr Kelly and his staff were wonderful and so very kind and understanding as I would be a worrier when it comes to trips to the vet - we are often so overlooked and patronised. I found Mr Kelly to be an utter gentleman and a truly gifted surgeon. While I found some of the earlier comments somewhat possibly hurtful to Mr Kelly (and his staff), they were most certainly inaccurate. I was curious why such negative comments were posted against an individual with such vitriol? Peoples livelihoods are at stake here and I congratulate the speed at which the moderator - Star-Pants - stepped in.

Discodog

Lilobaggins wrote: »

Basically what I am saying is that it is not keyhole surgery. Its a small incision and thats all. Your own vet could probably perform it (any vet worth their salt can) and therefore you are not buying into the idea that it is keyhole. A normal spay is safer and if your own Vet uses gas instead of an injection as an anesthetic then you are most definitely better to follow their advice instead of travelling to County Meath. I wouldnt think that he is behind the times seeing as how no one in Ireland is performing keyhole surgery... the equiptment simply isn't here and from what I've read up there is no benefits to it at all with regards to spaying animals... Certainly if it takes your dog longer to recover than if you got it done with your own vet.

I am advised that anyone who attends the Pet Expo will be able to see the equipment used. I also have a categoric assurance that the Vet in question uses gas & not injection.

How can you possibly claim that a normal spay is safer when it involves a great deal more cutting, stitching & opportunity for complications as well as a far longer recovery time. Not needing to protect stitches with the dreaded lampshade for 10 days is one huge positive for me.

But there is a significant risk in attempting a normal spay via a small incision because you cannot check the surrounding area. If you are having a normal spay then you might as well make the incision large enough because wounds don't heal lengthways. A laphrascopic camera allow the Vet to examine the whole area via a small wound.

I cannot understand your comments regarding being behind the times. Keyhole is the new technique in Ireland but it is common all over Europe. I also can't comprehend whether you are saying that there are no benefits from spaying or from this technique. The benefits of spaying are well known to 95% of the posters here. If you do the research you will find plenty of studies comparing Ovariectomy with Hysterectomy.

rogeo

There is alot of discussion about so called "keyhole" surgery on this thread, are pet owners clarifying is there a laproscope camera used or is it just a small incison? .... the term keyhole, is misleading, are pet owners asking this question?
Smaller incisions ...yes, have an advantage of less tissue trauma, and smaller scar, but also a smaller field of vision for the surgeon can increase the risk of unseen intra-operative internal bleeding?
There are other important questions you should be asking, is there a qualified nurse monitoring your dog under anaesthetic?, are they recieving sufficient intraoperative analgesia?, is there sufficient monitoring equipment?
Pet owners should be asking these questions

JustAThought

I have used Paul Kelly Vets in Rathoath out past Tescos on the left near the school and have found him to be an excellent vet. I can highly recommend him. I am wondering why someone twice has used a never-used account to anonymously ask fairly basic questions that have already been repeatedly clarified, and have also been seperstely answered by three different sets of different qualified vets on this site? Sounds like a case of sour grapes; or vet.
Perhaps this should be what is questioned.


I met Paul Kelly Vet & Toby Vet from Cork at the Pet Expo in the RDS where they had videos of the operation; information ; online resources; question sheets and the equipment present; including a really ingenious & interesting demo of the L. Camera used in the operation which was relayed to a big screen ; really interesting. There was a whole selection of people there including vets nurses & the information available , was really clear; helpful and scientifically supported. They also both ( vets) spent the weekend answering questions from anxious pet owners ( free of charge) and were exceptionally patient, and helpful.

I have since used Paul Kelly Vet for the keyhole surgery; was overwhelmed at this service and on the brilliant form my dog was ; tail wagging and all enthusiastic & jumping about when I picked her up. She did not have to have s huge incision; nor her stomach muscles cut open, nor any of the other issues already raised. Her form & mood is excellent; there is a small clean incision & she is merrily sniffing about without a collar waiting til I will let her zoom around & swim again in a few days.

Paul Kelly, called me by the time I had reached my home that evening to check that I was OK ( I was a nervous wreck!) & again the following day to chat & see that I was happy ( I was!!) he is not my normal vet ( who is a great vet but does not dothis operation) and my normal vet recommended this procedure to me as it is less invasive & thE dog can recover far quicker & does not have to berestricted& kept quiet & calm for half as long as with a traditional spay. in a big hyperactive high energy dog this can be very difficult & distressing to manage.

As someone who Has managed the dogs heats for many years I can highly recommend both this operation & Paul Kelly vet in Rathoath who provided an exceptional service & a happy high energy dog after the operation who was in greatform & rearing to go out .& play & explore in the green behind his practice ; just fantastic !!!.

rogeo

just to confirm dogs dont have stomach muscles (as such)...you are incising through a peritoneum?, the results your dog had from the procedure is consistant with most bitch spays with good intra-operative analgesia, my point I am making is as others have made before myself is......there is no camera therefore it is not so called 'keyhole' surgery!!? you have answered my questions, as you said there is one incision, im delighted your are happy with your service and your dog is well, that is what you want as an end result but it is not keyhole surgery

JustAThought

How remarkable : a stranger whose sole purpose with their posting account is to bitch about keyhole surgery; knows about my dogs medical history? And operations?
Sounds like sour grapes to me. Or a very sour wanna be vet.

Lizard_Moon

I am not taking any sides, in the above discussion here but a couple of points
- all methods require an abdominal incision(s)
- the midline incision in all abdomnal surgery goes thru the attachment of all the stomach muscles (linea alba) so the muscle bodies aren't cut.
- a single incision is mentioned by Justathought, please correct me but I thought 2 or 3 small incisions were made in laparoscopic surgery as the camera goes in a separate hole to the instruments so you can see what is being done.

I am a vet. I can understand rogeo concerns about false advertising and vets just doing very small spay holes but selling themselves as 'keyhole spays'. People are under the impression that they are using the extremely expensive equipment and have undergone the extensive training involved.

I am not commenting on the vets mentioned above but at others offering keyhole spays.

My practice doesn't offer this as it is not an investment we wish to prioritise, but we are happy with our spay outcomes and wouldn't have the population to support this technique.

rogeo

It's a shame 'Just a thought' has to be defensive and agressive, if you read the other threads alot of them are agreeing with my point, Im happy you have had a good experience with your vet, we are discussing the subject of "keyhole" surgery...the misleading use of the word "keyhole"

I agree with the above comments I am not personally attacking any vet, I am concerned owners are being mislead here

boomerang

Rogeo, there is a camera. It is keyhole surgery. There are two incisions - one for the camera, and one for the surgical instruments. These incisions are smaller than for the tidiest traditional ovariohysterectomies I've seen. And the recovery time is definitely much faster, with less post-operative pain. Just did a week's work experience with a vet who performs laparoscopic spays.

JustAThought

I'm not being aggressive * rolls eyes* however the uninformed nonsense you declared in relation to my pets operation deserved a lot mire. You appear to only use your account to run down this surgery & are making underhand implications that are worthless & seem to belie an alternative motive.
Your assertion & declaration in relation to my pet is nonsense. But then that's your style.
Bitter lemons ... Better cut down on them.

Lizard_Moon

JustAThought wrote: »

She did not have to have s huge incision; nor her stomach muscles cut open, nor any of the other issues already raised. Her form & mood is excellent; there is a small clean incision & she is merrily sniffing about without a collar waiting til I will let her zoom around & swim again in a few days.

As I said all surgery cuts the stomach muscle and laparoscopic surgery requires a minimum of 2 holes.

Rogeo stated their opinion without slagging people off why can't other posters debate the facts without the personal slurs.

Boomerang- that is my point, some vets offer this and some vets claim to.

rogeo

Thanks Lizard moon.....
I understand what keyhole surgery, I have worked in referral centres and do work in a referral centre and i understand the cost and skills involved, I also have seen thousands of spays over 10years so I know what that involves...as Lizard moon says maybe some vets are doing keyhole spays excellent! but a small incision is not keyhole surgery

Dodd

I think if people know the proper name for this operation and ask the vet is that what they do then it should be all good.
If they say no we just make a smaller cut then.........