DART airport plan on track as Metro North hits the buffers

Solair

namloc1980 wrote: »

Does anyone think that the €300m figure seems a tad optimistic to design, plan and build this thing?

I mean look at the relay of the Midleton line in Cork. At 10km it's slightly longer than the Airport spur. It cost €80m yet in that case you had:
- an existing alignment owned by IR so no CPO to speak of.
- single tracking all the way with a passing loop.
- 2 small stations built.
- No major bridges to be built other than reinforcement of some existing ones and a couple of over passes for farmers.

Now the Govt expect us to believe that they can design, plan and build this spur line all for €300m which will need:
- a brand new alignment and as a result the engineering that that will entail.
- CPO of land.
- double tracking all the way.
- Presumably a reasonably large station at the airport and a park n ride facility with station.
- 3 major roads to cross (Malahide, M1 and Swords). Surely the M1 alone will cost a small fortune.
- Oh and electrify it as well.

One bridge on the Lower Glanmire Road near Cork City Centre cost something like €5 million.


That's a lot more than a bit of re-enforcement and it's certainly not an overpass for farmers.

There's also the provision of automatic level crossings near that point too, similar to DART ones at Sandymount etc, and there was major resignalling to replace the antique Victorian signals on the original Cobh route.

Cool Mo D

The Middleton line isn't all single track either - it's a mix of single and double - it was designed to be able to handle up to 4 trains an hour each direction.

Losty Dublin

namloc1980 wrote: »

Does anyone think that the €300m figure seems a tad optimistic to design, plan and build this thing?

I mean look at the relay of the Midleton line in Cork. At 10km it's slightly longer than the Airport spur. It cost €80m yet in that case you had:
- an existing alignment owned by IR so no CPO to speak of.
- single tracking all the way with a passing loop.
- 2 small stations built.
- No major bridges to be built other than reinforcement of some existing ones and a couple of over passes for farmers.

To be quite fair, it may not be too far off the mark, all told.

In the case of the Middleton line, while it was on the old line, the costs in it's case involved the virtual rebuilding and relaying of the new track and trackbed and lifting of the old line, along with the restoration and opening of stations as well as the complete resignaling of said line. Some of the cost also included the cost to resignal the Cobh branch as well as the rather complex junction at Glounthane, the junction of the branch so as such it's a total of several projects which were done at a time when building costs were high. Costs now will be somewhat lower.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Now the Govt expect us to believe that they can design, plan and build this spur line all for €300m which will need:
- a brand new alignment and as a result the engineering that that will entail.
- CPO of land.
- double tracking all the way.
- Presumably a reasonably large station at the airport and a park n ride facility with station.
- 3 major roads to cross (Malahide, M1 and Swords). Surely the M1 alone will cost a small fortune.
- Oh and electrify it as well.

As a rule, there isn't that much more land needed for a double track line than a single tracked line after allowing for space for drainage etc so any land costs will deal with disturbance more so than space. Also, this land is close to the airport so it's value isn't that high as it's zoning potential is limited. It is also is relatively level (A railways dream) and it has little in the way so a direct route isn't too awkward so it won't need anything too complex or expensive; anybridges needed are not going to be complicated. There are major roads to deal with but these would be logistical issues that are fairly easy to deal with in the scheme of things. As to the cost, well we have low construction costs as a whole so it will help it's case.

CIE knew it was very simple to do some 25 years ago and were willing to do it in the early 90's so it's a question of not being let do it, as opposed to it being impossible; I personally think that it won't happen for reasons outside of the practical ability to so as such.

Solair

I know I am looking at this from the perspective of 2011, but the Dublin rail network missed so many opportunities to get a decent service in place.

DART should have been spurred to the airport and also DART services should have been constructed to Maynooth, Kildare and along any of the major commuter lines out of Dublin. It would make sense to have a single standardised, electric rail system for communter rail in that area. It would have cut down on noise, air pollution and also maintenance and improved reliability and allowed for an all-round better service. That project should have started in 1984 and continued on. We'd have had that stuff in place by the early 1990s if the political will and foresight had been there.

Likewise, I think such a system could have been built in Cork for Middleton/Cobh - Mallow commuter routes.

The whole intercity network was poorly modernised too. The Cork-Dublin train's inappropriate technology i.e. it should be high-speed DMU of some sort and the fact they bought non-tilting rolling stock to run on a network that has bends in the lines and issues with speed restrictions is just nuts. We'll never be able to go beyond 160km/h on most routes because of that decision.

I just do not trust CIE and the Department of Transport to get anything right ever. It's just gross incompetence for decades.

I am also a little concerned that we are getting bogged down on interconnecting Dublin's rail hubs at vast costs. There isn't all that much difficulty in interconnecting between them as it is other than between the two Luas lines.
Heuston and Connolly take a few mins to connect between by Luas. It's not a big deal at all for anyone to jump on a Luas and get from A to B.

What would be the practicality of perhaps running a regular bus connecting Stephen's Green to Connolly ? Or, even using guided electric buses rather than Luas as it would need to negotiate tight bends in the roads to weave its way through the city centre.

I just think that given we're broke, perhaps it might be time to start planning public transport with a degree of intelligence for once?
Maybe get some value for money and actually roll out appropriate systems rather than trying to pretend that Dublin is as big as London or Paris.

Integrated ticketing is the key to a lot of this. If Dublin bus and the RPA can't get their act together they should be forced to. Surely something like that can be driven through by ministerial order?

jd

Solair wrote: »

I am also a little concerned that we are getting bogged down on interconnecting Dublin's rail hubs at vast costs. There isn't all that much difficulty in interconnecting between them as it is other than between the two Luas lines.
Heuston and Connolly take a few mins to connect between by Luas. It's not a big deal at all for anyone to jump on a Luas and get from A to B.

The dart underground wouldn't run between Heuston and Connolly. One of the main benefits is how it increases the the capacity of the commuter network by removing the bottlenecks north of Tara Street. It's hard to see how we could squash in frequent Dart services to/from Maynooth/Kildare/Airport without it.

Solair

jd wrote: »

The dart underground wouldn't run between Heuston and Connolly. One of the main benefits is how it increases the the capacity of the commuter network by removing the bottlenecks north of Tara Street. It's hard to see how we could squash in frequent Dart services to/from Maynooth/Kildare/Airport without it.

I've seen other commuter networks that run far more trains per hour than DART in seemingly far tighter circumstances. Surely good use of well-planned, intelligent signalling can solve this?

Losty Dublin

Solair wrote: »

I've seen other commuter networks that run far more trains per hour than DART in seemingly far tighter circumstances. Surely good use of well-planned, intelligent signalling can solve this?

There is a resignalling project for the city centre area due very soon which will for almost double the train movements between Killester, Cabra and Sandymount. It has been postponsed a few times pending other network improvements, hence it's delay and the capacity issues.

LXFlyer

The resignalling project is ongoing currently.

As per the T21 website:

Project Description
The project will provide for capacity enhancement by upgrading signalling to accommodate an additional 5 train paths per direction per hour (up from 12 at present to 17) in the critical City Centre area. It is a key project aimed at unlocking the existing major bottleneck in the city centre, which will have positive spin off effects for DART, Commuter and Intercity passengers. For example it will facilitate an hourly frequency on the Dublin – Belfast line including peak hour arrival / departure.

It will provide the necessary capacity through the city centre to cater for other projects within the greater Dublin area such as the additional services on the Clonsilla-Dunboyne /Navan line and the DART Underground (Interconnector).

The overall objective of this project is to
•increase the operational headway from the current 12 trains per hour to a minimum of 17 trains per hour (maximum 24) from Malahide through the city centre
•provide increased flexibility in operations at Connolly station and
•provide turn back facilities at Clongriffin and Grand Canal Dock stations

Projected Completion Date
Late 2012

Current Status of Project
Construction/installation works commenced on the project in early 2009 and the project is expected to be completed by 2012.

charlemont

n97 mini wrote: »

It would only pick up at the airport and drop at the city centre, or some other such bolix.

Exactly whereas Metro North will serve a large area with a population to make it a success.

mgmt

charlemont wrote: »

Exactly whereas Metro North will serve a large area with a population to make it a success.

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20Redacted%20Business%20Case/MNDBC_FinalRDCTClean.pdf

Over 2/3's of the passengers on Metro North comes from the Airport and Swords.

robd

Solair wrote: »

I've seen other commuter networks that run far more trains per hour than DART in seemingly far tighter circumstances. Surely good use of well-planned, intelligent signalling can solve this?

The problem occurs with the different speed of trains. Through service (like commuter trains) vs every stop (like Dart). The current system is plagued by segments which are too long. This will be resolved as part of the upgrade in progress, but doesn't change the problems with different types of trains. They could certainly be smarter with Maynooth trains etc, so they don't cross over other trains etc. And remember commuter trains have to go somewhere when they arrive into City, which is currently near Grand Canal Dock.

However part of the real fix is not having trains cross over and not having different types of trains on same track. For that you need Dart Underground and upgraded 3/4 track Northern Line with extension of electrification. While the other stuff can be done it eats into the money for DU and undermines it's use case, so from a company perspective why would IE do that?

michelledoh

I know this may seem like a strange question but if this plan was shelved 20 years ago is there not a decent reason for it? Why wasn't it done 20 years ago if it is such a good plan?

omg a kitty

michelledoh wrote: »

I know this may seem like a strange question but if this plan was shelved 20 years ago is there not a decent reason for it? Why wasn't it done 20 years ago if it is such a good plan?

Passenger numbers at Dublin Airport now is more than double what it was 20 years ago. Its dropping now, I agree but still its definitely double what it was 20 years ago. And since Metro North and West was proposed in 2006 and 2007, Dublin Airport's passenger numbers dropped by over 20%

LXFlyer

michelledoh wrote: »

I know this may seem like a strange question but if this plan was shelved 20 years ago is there not a decent reason for it? Why wasn't it done 20 years ago if it is such a good plan?

Because beforehand we had no money and the economic conditions were only starting to improve. Politicians started looking at the more expensive grander options and as with virtually every major public transport in Ireland we continued to go round and round in circles debating the merits until we ran out of money again.

robd

mgmt wrote: »

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20Redacted%20Business%20Case/MNDBC_FinalRDCTClean.pdf

Over 2/3's of the passengers on Metro North comes from the Airport and Swords.

That's only the southbound traffic and it's only the morning peak, which essentially looks at travel from Commuterville.

I find some of the figures hard to believe. Ballymun and Northwood are high density developments relative to Swords but are only allocated 8.9% and 2.4% of generated journeys. Drumcondra which is supposed to be an interchange with Maynooth line and bus services is only allocated 2.09 %. Maybe they're not counting transfers from other modes of transport.

mgmt

A new light-rail using Irish Gauge tracks from the Docklands Station to St. Stephen's Green will solve a lot of Dublin's Rail congestion problems for peanuts. You could travel from Maynooth to the heart of the city centre. You would not have to force the DART to Howth into a shuttle service. All for 2km of track (and electrification). Also no need for Luas BXD. And the Samual Beckett bridge is already built for light rail.

robd

mgmt wrote: »

A new light-rail using Irish Gauge tracks from the Docklands Station to St. Stephen's Green will solve a lot of Dublin's Rail congestion problems for peanuts. You could travel from Maynooth to the heart of the city centre. You would not have to force the DART to Howth into a shuttle service. All for 2km of track (and electrification). Also no need for Luas BXD. And the Samual Beckett bridge is already built for light rail.

Light rail isn't suitable for those kind of distances and it doesn't get you to O'Connell Street/Bridge or Hueston. It suffers from the same problems as the current Luas in terms of getting you near but not quite there. Maintaining yet another type of vehicle (Luas/Train) class would be expensive too.

Having said that, as I've travelled more and more around various European cities and seen how low density Dublin actually is, I think the future is Luas/Light rail. We just need to do more with less. Join up the Luas's and look to extend to Grangegorm and on to Finglas. Look at cheap options to further extend current lines, perhaps from Point Depot to East Point for example. Look at Lucan line. We need to get integrated ticketing working properly and not have arsed ASAP to allow switch from Bus to Luas to DART.

AngryLips

Dublin airport doesn't exactly demand a rail link. Being less than 30 minutes from the city centre it must be one of the airports most convenient to the city it serves out of any primary airport across Europe.

I hope they use the money to make Luas the light rail network its always promised to be. Of course, when that happens we can look forward to another endless thread on this forum lamenting the low-life that have chosen to make use of it...

lucernarian

A plan to bring light rail down Westland Row?!

mgmt

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

A plan to return light rail down Westland Row?!

FYP

dowlingm

mgmt wrote: »

A new light-rail using Irish Gauge tracks

Right... :rolleyes:

OurLadyofKnock

mgmt wrote: »

A new light-rail using Irish Gauge tracks

No comment.

Ernest

Sorry to be pedantic but that small town in east Cork which is now on a local diesel commuter route is not named after the bride of a recent UK royal wedding. It is actually called Midleton ( not Middleton ). Only saying.....

popebenny16

Ernest wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic but that small town in east Cork which is now on a local diesel commuter route is not named after the bride of a recent UK royal wedding. It is actually called Midleton ( not Middleton ). Only saying.....

quick someone post that joke about prince william entering middleton on friday evening that was doing the rounds last week

North Face

If the cheaper Aer Dart II gets the go ahead, the track from Clongriffin will run along a belt of land known as the red zone which is practically cleared of high structures as it in the flight path for the Airport.

It more then likely would have a planned stop close to ALSAA where the DAA plan to build their Airport City in the coming decade and it would then run onto Terminal 2. Though it quite possibly could just terminate at terminal 2 at the location of the proposed hotel which has been placed on the long finger.

http://www.dublinairportauthority.com/images/new_hotel.jpg

The DAA and ultimately the Minister of Transport own a large portion of the land and the RPA/IE would incur little cost for procurement.

At 300 million euro the proposal will offer a dedicated rail link to the city center with a stop within a short walking distance to the new Conference Center along with access to LUAS connections and to other mainline trains network wide. Dart Connections to the Aviva for international games straight from the airport.

DAA is seeking to attract international business for conferences, international football & rugby, Larger Asian airlines are hoped to create transatlantic hubs in Dublin and a rail link may encourage stop over passenger to visit the City and benefit tourism.

lucernarian

Transatlantic hubs with a runway that's not even 3km long? I wouldn't be sure about that.

CIE

robd wrote: »

Light rail isn't suitable for those kind of distances and it doesn't get you to O'Connell Street/Bridge or Hueston. It suffers from the same problems as the current Luas in terms of getting you near but not quite there. Maintaining yet another type of vehicle (Luas/Train) class would be expensive too.

Having said that, as I've travelled more and more around various European cities and seen how low density Dublin actually is, I think the future is Luas/Light rail. We just need to do more with less. Join up the Luas's and look to extend to Grangegorm and on to Finglas. Look at cheap options to further extend current lines, perhaps from Point Depot to East Point for example. Look at Lucan line. We need to get integrated ticketing working properly and not have arsed ASAP to allow switch from Bus to Luas to DART.

Dublin "low-density"? The city's got a way higher density than other cities that have larger railway systems (e.g. Köln/Bonn, Frankfurt, Stockholm; the list goes on). Integrated ticketing is no panacea that will make people want to ride a public transport system that's of lower volume and progressively disimproving especially on the bus end, and even more so if more bus routes disappear every time a new railway line opens up (if that ever happens anymore in the city).

great1

can't see why it is thought non-sensible...

short, direct, cheap, all we can afford given that the IMF are calling the shots : )

sorry if this is the "wrong answer"

great1

: )

dowlingm

great1 wrote: »

can't see why it is thought non-sensible...

short, direct, cheap, all we can afford given that the IMF are calling the shots : )

sorry if this is the "wrong answer"

I don't see how this is any of short (since in track-miles terms the triple/quad tracking will mean a goodly amount of track to be laid and bridges to be widened etc.), direct (since it gets most of the way to Howth before boomeranging back to Collinstown) or cheap (since the works will disrupt existing services by forcing slowdowns between Fairview and Clongriffin and we have no idea how much getting onto the airport lands and over the M50 will cost)