Trolling in the Soccer Forum and other problems.

DOC09UNAM

RasTa wrote: »

Then why does it seem to be the same Liverpool fans pissing and moaning

This thread was sparked by a debate had in the premier soccer saturday thread, involving liverpool fans and the muppet.

K-9

I see the thread was going around Twitter this morning, maybe part of the reason it was deleted?

opr

RasTa wrote: »

Then why does it seem to be the same Liverpool fans pissing and moaning

I am sure trolling happens on all areas of the forum but not to the same extent it happens on the Liverpool thread. I don't mind engaging and having the banter with fans of other clubs and its one of the things that makes the boards forum great in compared to other Liverpool only forums.

The difference is that this is constant week in week out starting arguments and striking up pointless debates that go round in circles with no other intention other than to leave the thread in a complete train wreck.

The Muppet has over twice the amount of posts in this years Liverpool thread than he has in his own team thread. Maybe its just me but I find that incredibly strange!

Opr

Blatter

amy21 wrote: »

Do people iago being a utd season ticket holder that you can be impartial enough to mod this thread fairly, i dont think he can.

niallo27 wrote: »

I was waiting for a PM from an admin but I recieved none so I decided to open this thread, I would like to make a complaint over the mod iago in the soccer forum, he has history of bias against Liverpool fans, he is a season ticket holder at old trafford so it's impossible for him to be impartial, he has condoned the singing of hysel songs in the past with no ban on the poster in question, he has a history with Liverpool fans if you look over his infractions and old posts.
Thank you for listening
5 times
Niall

-Both spell Iago, iago. Check

-Both accuse Iago of bias. Check

-Both use the word impartial. Check

-Both hold the knowledge that Iago holds a season ticket. Check

-Both have extremely similar posting styles. Check

-Both are Liverpool fans. Check

-Both have a series of infractions for the abuse of Manchester Utd football club. Check

-Both have numbers at the end of their usernames. Check



-One user is currently serving a 6 month ban.

-One user is currently active.

Chucky the tree

Bit rich pointing out alt accounts S4L no?

Super-Rush

I was just about to come in here and start this thread but i've been beaten to the punch.

First of i have to say that the mods of the SF for the best part do a top notch job given the volume of people they have to deal with all at once. There have been a few occasions where i've raised an eybrow to some of the decisions made(or not made), but every forum has its own rules.

The way i see it from both a mod and SF poster/reader standpoint is that the forum needs more mods. Even if these mods were only to come in and help on match weekends, i'm sure the amount of rubbish that goes on in the match threads and the aftermath in the superthreads would be dealth with quicker.

We all know that people can't be expected to be online all the time, but with a larger number of mods in the forum, there is a much better chance that someone might be online at weekends so that the match threads and super threads don't end being full of off topic sniping and bickering, which makes these threads become unreadable after 3 or 4 pages.

Insect Overlord

super-rush wrote: »

The way i see it from both a mod and SF poster/reader standpoint is that the forum needs more mods. Even if these mods were only to come in and help on match weekends, i'm sure the amount of rubbish that goes on in the match threads and the aftermath in the superthreads would be dealth with quicker.

Looking at the Reported Posts forum on weekends, I got the impression that moderating was left until after the final whistles had blown. A lot of match threads this season descended into the petty trolling/point-scoring between rival "fans" of various clubs. From the outside looking in, it seems that troublesome posts/posters tend to be dealt with in one go when the actual soccer is over. I thought it was a decision made by the soccer mods, as opposed to them being busy during the day.

That said, I spend far too much time on-line! My time perception WRT modding is warped at this stage...

Blatter

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Bit rich pointing out alt accounts S4L no?

Lol.

Enlighten me. Who am I really supposed to be? :pac:

redzerdrog

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Lol.

Enlighten me. Who am I really supposed to be? :pac:

my guess would be Boggles

Blatter

redzerdrog wrote: »

my guess would be Boggles

I presume this Boggles is banned from the sf but still an active member of Boards.ie?

If so, mods, admins, whoever, feel free to do an IP check.

Jazzy

S4L is in no way boggles. not even close


there was a guy who at least made trolling interesting... and of course another one the mods couldnt/wouldnt deal with. in fact theres a list of them (although in fairness the majority have been dealt with)

PHB

super-rush wrote: »

The way i see it from both a mod and SF poster/reader standpoint is that the forum needs more mods. Even if these mods were only to come in and help on match weekends, i'm sure the amount of rubbish that goes on in the match threads and the aftermath in the superthreads would be dealth with quicker.

We all know that people can't be expected to be online all the time, but with a larger number of mods in the forum, there is a much better chance that someone might be online at weekends so that the match threads and super threads don't end being full of off topic sniping and bickering, which makes these threads become unreadable after 3 or 4 pages.

Lots of mods can bring its own troubles. With a smaller set, you at least get consistant rules, with larger sets, it's easy to get differences.

The amount of stuff I would have infracted/banned for over the past 1/2 months would be nuts compared to what's allowed. For me though, we're just reaching end of season. The forum always gets worse as the season goes on. The forum is at it's best after the season is over, when the indepth discussions happen about squads/managers/formations etc. That's when there isn't constant new stuff for people to post inane comments about, there's only your actual thoughts and discussions about issues. It's when all the best threads for me are.

At this stage of the season, the matches are too high profile, the events too common, to get a decent discussion going, and due to the high number of users, every thread feels like it's filled with dross, lots of which are trolls, lots of which are new people responding to trolls. I have an ignore list about 30 big. The first two posters in this thread are on my ignore list.

It's just this time of season which is why the forum at the moment has an odd feel to it.

PHB

And as for the specific thread, I don't know why anyone would feel the need to bring up the disaster. Frankly, and I genuinely mean this, I literally can't understand why anyone would need to post up that it's possible that some of the crap the sun made up happened, even though they didn't think it was probable. Even if that occured to me, I'd never think to post it. I doubt it would add anything. I doubt I'd have an interesting debate.

I would literally consider it along the lines of, it's possible that Harry Greg left people in the wreckage to die, it's not probable, but it's possible. It's possible that Osama is kicking it in Palm Springs, not probable. I just don't think I'd ever think to share that thought. I don't understand why anyone would.

Super-Rush

PHB wrote: »

Lots of mods can bring its own troubles. With a smaller set, you at least get consistant rules, with larger sets, it's easy to get differences.

To be fair differences can occur whether you have two mods or ten. I'm sure most people can easily spot the little things that are ruining the threads, sniping, flaming, back seat modding and low level trolling, so any mod should be able to see whats going on and act on it without rocking the boat.

The amount of stuff I would have infracted/banned for over the past 1/2 months would be nuts compared to what's allowed. For me though, we're just reaching end of season. The forum always gets worse as the season goes on. The forum is at it's best after the season is over, when the indepth discussions happen about squads/managers/formations etc. That's when there isn't constant new stuff for people to post inane comments about, there's only your actual thoughts and discussions about issues. It's when all the best threads for me are.

At this stage of the season, the matches are too high profile, the events too common, to get a decent discussion going, and due to the high number of users, every thread feels like it's filled with dross, lots of which are trolls, lots of which are new people responding to trolls. I have an ignore list about 30 big. The first two posters in this thread are on my ignore list.

It's just this time of season which is why the forum at the moment has an odd feel to it

Maybe this has been the case in previous years but the crap started this season from very early on. I'd give some examples but i stick to the Liverpool super thread and the Liverpool match threads, so it might look like i'm being biased but i see the reported posts come in every time one of the other big clubs play each other or go through a bad patch.

There have been countless threads this season that have turned into train wrecks within minutes of being started and i just think that some extra hands would stop the bull**** before it gets out of hand and ruins the thread for everyone else.

LuckyLloyd

PHB wrote: »

And as for the specific thread, I don't know why anyone would feel the need to bring up the disaster. Frankly, and I genuinely mean this, I literally can't understand why anyone would need to post up that it's possible that some of the crap the sun made up happened, even though they didn't think it was probable. Even if that occured to me, I'd never think to post it. I doubt it would add anything. I doubt I'd have an interesting debate.

I would literally consider it along the lines of, it's possible that Harry Greg left people in the wreckage to die, it's not probable, but it's possible. It's possible that Osama is kicking it in Palm Springs, not probable. I just don't think I'd ever think to share that thought. I don't understand why anyone would.

Well I'd be willing to bet money on why they would / do.

When I was on the mod team for the soccer forum the issue of trolls like The Muppet was well discussed. Therecklessone and I were in favour of a more strong armed approach, but the team as a whole reckoned nothing can really be done about them. There is reams of discussion on this problem in the soccer mods forum. There was never any doubt that sorting the issue would take a lot of effort, and would require a great deal of skill and perseverance. Modding the forum to the current standard is already a great deal of work, so I can completely understand the unwillingness to take the project on.

The Muppet is a troll. He gets his jollies from needling Liverpool fans. He has read the charter and has a good feel for the rules, so understands how to carefully phrase his posts so that he rarely receives infractions. His posting is a blight on the forum, and he should never have been allowed back in following his original permanent ban. As has been noted in this thread already, the breakdown of what threads he posts in are a clear indicator of what he is all about.

There are others like him (on all sides of the fan divides), and I guarantee you that any of the mods could name them off the top of their head without too much thought. They are aware that I and others strongly disagree with the lack of action against such posters, but I understand why they choose to not pull the trigger.

However, the posts from Sunday crossed a line that should never have been crossed. Being obtuse about transfer spending or Benitez is one thing - taking sniper shots over Hillsborough quite another.

Unfortunately nothing is likely to change for the foreseeable future. I implore Liverpool regulars to place The Muppet on their ignore list and avoid engaging with him. That is their only recourse at present.

OPENROAD

rarnes1 wrote: »

The annual feedback thread is back !

Seriously though, the SF is a well run, well moderated forum. I'd imagine it's one of the hardest forums to moderate and tbh I don't envy any of the mods.

Some of the comments in The Hillsborough thread (it was actually a Premier Soccer Saturday thread that veered off course in a bad way) were far too close to the bone though. There's people from Liverpool that post on the forum as we know, and some of the comments were offensive to say the least. I can understand why the thread was deleted tbh. Boards doesn't need that sort of coverage.

Apart from that thread, I think the SF is a quality forum. If people don't like a certain poster(s) or get wound up a bit easy just stick them on ignore.

+1 Totally agree.

bamboozling

PHB wrote: »

And as for the specific thread, I don't know why anyone would feel the need to bring up the disaster. Frankly, and I genuinely mean this, I literally can't understand why anyone would need to post up that it's possible that some of the crap the sun made up happened, even though they didn't think it was probable. Even if that occured to me, I'd never think to post it. I doubt it would add anything. I doubt I'd have an interesting debate.

I would literally consider it along the lines of, it's possible that Harry Greg left people in the wreckage to die, it's not probable, but it's possible. It's possible that Osama is kicking it in Palm Springs, not probable. I just don't think I'd ever think to share that thought. I don't understand why anyone would.

Quite possibly one of the best analogies in context I have ever seen. Just in case anyone doesn't understand the reference Harry Gregg heroically rescued many of his team mates, his badly injured manager and a pregnant woman and her baby during the Munich air disaster. Harry Gregg is a hero, an absolute hero for what he did. Words can't express my admiration for him. I don't know myself if I would have the mental capabilities for what he did. I have the physical but I question whether I could do what he did. I think probably not.

Were I to express a sentiment discrediting Gregg and his actions or seeking proof of his actions, it would invoke a huge reaction from all fans, particularly United fans, and to be honest I would hope a long ban would be issued.

Quite how someone, who as a 'fan' of United and knows the history and Muncih disaster can go into a thread and question whether Liverpool fans did indeed do what the Sun newspaper alleged is frankly baffling. Really, really baffling and to be honest rather ignorant.

Yet according to the charter nothing can strictly be done. And that, while not the fault of the moderators who have a tough job and conduct themselves very well, is wrong, very, very wrong.

Great post PHB.

OPENROAD

bamboozling wrote: »

For what it's worth I think the mods do a good job. I've got two infractions this year, one I thought was a slightly harsh but the other one was for acting the goat one day when I engaged in casual trolling. I was called out, and infracted for it and I accepted the charge without question.

The problem is others engage is such trolling on a common basis and don't get infracted. That is where the problem lies.

I think Iago is an excellent moderator, he applies the laws strictly and fairly with others. Indeed there are times when I think the other mods are happy to allow Iago to play the bad guy role as he often acts on things days later despite other mods being online before him. I explicitly remember an PM exchange where offensive posts were left untouched for 3 days until I brought to the attention of Iago. I brought it to the attention of another mod the day before yet still no action was taken.

Basically there needs to be consistency between the mods, it's too easy to let Iago be the bad cop, and the consistent trolling of some users has to stop..

In fairness this happens on other Forums, if anything the SF is one such Forum where posters are infracted for this imo

bamboozling

OPENROAD wrote: »

In fairness this happens on other Forums, if anything the SF is one such Forum where posters are infracted for this imo

As far as I'm concerned you have three types of trolls.

You have the Amy21's of this world who engage in idiocy and troll by making outlandish statements and generally trying to píss people off by saying stupid things. People find them out pretty quickly. They also tend to get bans pretty quickly.

Then you have trolls like The Muppet who engages in trollery of a different kind. This is co-ordinated over quite some time and is clever enough to rise, bait and vex people but all within the confines of the rules. They are difficult to eradicate.

Then there is the third type. These are good posters. Even in trolling they are good posters. To a certain extent I feel to get a really good debate going a bit of trolling can be necessary to start and keep it flowing. These posters engage in the banter, have a laugh and know the line and never come close to crossing it. They throw out opinions that might get a reaction but are capable of backing up points and of taking other views on board. They are generally posters held in high esteem throughout the forum and rightly so. I like to refer to these as good trolls. They benefit the forum.

What is needed is to eradicate the 2nd type but also keeping the third type because like I said they are good for the forum. The 1st kind generally sort themselves out within a while.

DOC09UNAM

Thanks for quoting the post Openroad, I couldn't read it due to him being on my ignore list, probably for some of his "casual trolling".

DOC09UNAM

bamboozling wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned you have three types of trolls.

You have the Amy21's of this world who engage in idiocy and troll by making outlandish statements and generally trying to píss people off by saying stupid things. People find them out pretty quickly. They also tend to get bans pretty quickly.

Such as commenting after Manchester United won the manchester derby, that they aren't really in Manchester?

:pac:

Boggles

redzerdrog wrote: »

my guess would be Boggles

Everybody knows at this stage my alt account is Mr. Alan.

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

I presume this Boggles is banned from the sf but still an active member of Boards.ie?
.

Pfft no he ain't.

I had to leave because me and Jazzy used be an item, we broke up, he couldn't accept it, think Glenn Close - Fatal Attraction, now I am in the boards equivalent of the witness protection program.

The Muppet

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well I'd be willing to bet money on why they would / do.

When I was on the mod team for the soccer forum the issue of trolls like The Muppet was well discussed. Therecklessone and I were in favour of a more strong armed approach, but the team as a whole reckoned nothing can really be done about them. There is reams of discussion on this problem in the soccer mods forum. There was never any doubt that sorting the issue would take a lot of effort, and would require a great deal of skill and perseverance. Modding the forum to the current standard is already a great deal of work, so I can completely understand the unwillingness to take the project on.

The Muppet is a troll. He gets his jollies from needling Liverpool fans. He has read the charter and has a good feel for the rules, so understands how to carefully phrase his posts so that he rarely receives infractions. His posting is a blight on the forum, and he should never have been allowed back in following his original permanent ban. As has been noted in this thread already, the breakdown of what threads he posts in are a clear indicator of what he is all about.

There are others like him (on all sides of the fan divides), and I guarantee you that any of the mods could name them off the top of their head without too much thought. They are aware that I and others strongly disagree with the lack of action against such posters, but I understand why they choose to not pull the trigger.

However, the posts from Sunday crossed a line that should never have been crossed. Being obtuse about transfer spending or Benitez is one thing - taking sniper shots over Hillsborough quite another.

Unfortunately nothing is likely to change for the foreseeable future. I implore Liverpool regulars to place The Muppet on their ignore list and avoid engaging with him. That is their only recourse at present.

Says the former mod that was demodded for trolling the soccer forum.

event

Mr Alan wrote: »

Slick, I agree with you about calling people who simply disagree with you a troll is not good for the forum & it does happen.

However, with The Muppet, that's not the case. He is a troll. You know it. I know it. The other mods know it. Every user on the forum knows it. It's virtually his sole contribution to the forum as well. It's pathetic & last night was a step too far for me.

Ps. People, please ignore Sean Batemans contribution above, no need to de-rail this thread with his bile.

i know its hard, but its very easy if people dont want to interact with muppet. put him on ignore, simple as that

The Muppet

bamboozling wrote: »

Quite possibly one of the best analogies in context I have ever seen. Just in case anyone doesn't understand the reference Harry Gregg heroically rescued many of his team mates, his badly injured manager and a pregnant woman and her baby during the Munich air disaster. Harry Gregg is a hero, an absolute hero for what he did. Words can't express my admiration for him. I don't know myself if I would have the mental capabilities for what he did. I have the physical but I question whether I could do what he did. I think probably not.

Were I to express a sentiment discrediting Gregg and his actions or seeking proof of his actions, it would invoke a huge reaction from all fans, particularly United fans, and to be honest I would hope a long ban would be issued.

Quite how someone, who as a 'fan' of United and knows the history and Muncih disaster can go into a thread and question whether Liverpool fans did indeed do what the Sun newspaper alleged is frankly baffling. Really, really baffling and to be honest rather ignorant.

Yet according to the charter nothing can strictly be done. And that, while not the fault of the moderators who have a tough job and conduct themselves very well, is wrong, very, very wrong.

Great post PHB.

It's not a very good ananlagy at all, there were no stories in the press to suggest that Harry Gregg did anything other than be a hero. Theres the difference.


The reason the subject was raised the other night was in the context of a discussion about the TV programme , the Suns involvment and the boycott. I simply asked if the press reports had been disproved and if so was there any available information on the net which I could read about it.

LoLth

mod hat on

Posts that carry over a discussion from one forum to feedback will be infracted and the poster may be banned from feedback. If you dont post feedback, you have no need to have posting rights here. This includes (but is not limited to) discussion of Hillsborough or the merits of any soccer team.

If you suspect a poster is a troll, report the post to the mods who can check the history and check for similar accounts (in the case of a re-reg).if they are unsure they can requst a check from the admins who can go more in depth.

Calling a user a troll in feedback will be considered abuse and will be infracted and may result in a ban.



I like to give feedback some leeway for discussions to take their own course. this means allowing slightly OT jokes, allowing brief sidetreks etc BUT using feedback to continue on a discussion that was deemed unsuitable on another forum (under the guise of talking about the issues surrounding the original topic) is too far and is something that will be treated more severely in future.

if you feel someone is trolling, please use the proper process to bring it to the mods attention. Boards.ie tries not to do trial by popularity. Calling someone a troll in feedback will be seen as trying to tarnish a poster's reputation in a public forum and will be treated as abuse.

I will discuss both of these issues with the other admins and will update the charter accordingly where required.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

I simply asked if the press reports had been disproved and if so was there any available information on the net which I could read about it.

That is a blatant lie.

When you've been referred to the official report carried out on the tragedy, you've refused to accept it's credibility. While at the same time, thinking there has to be truth to The Suns original story (one they admitted was a lie-something you keep ignoring), yet refuse to recognise why you have pissed off so many people with your allegations.

This is what you're saying in essence.........

Official Government Report - Not a good enough source.

The Sun Newspaper - There must be truth there somewhere.

And not just any Sun story, one they've very publically admitted was a lie.

Lets clarify this further though-you didn't just seek more info on whether or not it was proven/unproven like you've said above, you said that your thoughts were that some Liverpool fans had most likely acted in the way reported by The Sun initially, despite zero evidence of this. Those were your words.

The rest of your posting that night was more a way to cover the tracks of your hideous allegations imo.

You also ask people to prove a negative, something that is near impossible to do.....for example, someone is branded a paedophile, obviously this is a disgusting allegation to make, do you then say to that person, "prove you're not a paedophile"......of course not. Yet this is effectively what you've done with the Liverpool fans who were there that day.

Its appalling & is the style of posting that is simply not acceptable.

As Llyod said earlier, being your usual self on transfer spending, Rafa Benitez, Utd's finances etc etc is one thing, however using The Suns story to have a go at Liverpool fans is a different thing entirely, I for one think that it will be an absolute disgrace if, taking all factors surrounding your history of posting in the SF, serious action is not taken against.

===========

LoLth, feel free to delete my post if you feel it is required in order to continue this conversation, however, I'm not too sure how we can discuss the style of trolling that is the problem in the SF without referring to examples & why that behaviour should be entirely unacceptable.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

That is a blatant lie.

When you've been referred to the official report carried out on the tragedy, you've refused to accept it's credibility. While at the same time, thinking there has to be truth to The Suns original story (one they admitted was a lie-something you keep ignoring), yet refuse to recognise why you have pissed off so many people with your allegations.

This is what you're saying in essence.........

Official Government Report - Not a good enough source.

The Sun Newspaper - There must be truth there somewhere.

And not just any Sun story, one they've very publically admitted was a lie.

Lets clarify this further though-you didn't just seek more info on whether or not it was proven/unproven like you've said above, you said that your thoughts were that some Liverpool fans had most likely acted in the way reported by The Sun initially, despite zero evidence of this. Those were your words.

The rest of your posting that night was more a way to cover the tracks of your hideous allegations imo.

You also ask people to prove a negative, something that is near impossible to do.....for example, someone is branded a paedophile, obviously this is a disgusting allegation to make, do you then say to that person, "prove you're not a paedophile"......of course not. Yet this is effectively what you've done with the Liverpool fans who were there that day.

Its appalling & is the style of posting that is simply not acceptable.

As Llyod said earlier, being your usual self on transfer spending, Rafa Benitez, Utd's finances etc etc is one thing, however using The Suns story to have a go at Liverpool fans is a different thing entirely, I for one think that it will be an absolute disgrace if, taking all factors surrounding your history of posting in the SF, serious action is not taken against.

===========

LoLth, feel free to delete my post if you feel it is required in order to continue this conversation, however, I'm not too sure how we can discuss the style of trolling that is the problem in the SF without referring to examples & why that behaviour should be entirely unacceptable.

Al we've been asked not to continue that discussion here so the only part of the post I'm replying to is your mis representation of what I posted , the bolded bit.

They are not my I words, I did not post the words "most likely" I said "it was possible that people in Liverpool jerseys had..... " There is a huge difference. BTW There was a reason I didn't call them Liverpool Fans or supporters, I was making the distinction between the idiots that we all admit are attracted to all clubs and the genuine fan.

Rubik.

The Muppet wrote: »

I was sensitive about where and what i was posting, I commented a number of times about the sensitivities involved during the coversation, also The thread the discussion was in was not a "liverpool thread" it was in one about a tv show and it's sponsors.

No, you feigned being sensitive to issue because you knew addressing it in any other way would result in a ban, which seems to be your whole approach to posting in the SF. You intention from the outset was to stir and you suceeded, well done - but wtf you get out of it is beyond me.

PHB

The Muppet wrote: »

The reason the subject was raised the other night was in the context of a discussion about the TV programme , the Suns involvment and the boycott. I simply asked if the press reports had been disproved and if so was there any available information on the net which I could read about it.

Sorry I'm confused, as I never actually saw the thread because I didn't want to read about an absurd TV show idea (which was what the thread was initially about), you simply asked whether the press reports had been disproved?

The Muppet wrote: »

The desire for a complete vindication of all present is the real issue I think, What the sun did was dispicable because they tarred all the liverpool fans with the same brush but it is possible that a small number of scumbags in Liverpool shirts may have behaved as reported.

It seems to me here, you are saying that, it's possible a small number of Liverpool fans engaged in behaviour as reported.

What's even more amusing is that you're claiming the problem with the sun is that they tarred all fans with the same brush. You're actually making the sun sound worse than it was. I'm pretty sure they never printed, every single Liverpool fan beat up PCs giving the kiss of life.

I think, the best way to go forward, would be to actually explain the point you were trying to make. Because to me, it simply seems as though you are saying that

"it is possible that a small number of scumbags in Liverpool shirts may have behaved as reported"

As such, I'd really like to know what else it could have been that you were trying to suggest. Like I really can't fathom any other reason for saying that beyond suspecting that it is true. If you think it's true, well I guess, fair enough, you're flatly wrong, but fair enough. If you don't think its true, what exactly were you hoping to engender by posting it.

I literally don't get the point that you were trying to raise. I just don't get it. I'd be intrigued by an explanation as I imagine it would settle this thing.