Trolling in the Soccer Forum and other problems.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Al we've been asked not to continue that discussion here so the only part of the post I'm replying to is your mis representation of what I posted , the bolded bit.

So in your view, without a shred of evidence, it's ok to say someone possibly a paedophile. Possibly a rapist. Possibly a thief. Possibly a murderer etc etc.

You're just so ****ing wrong it's disgusting.

It's entirely unacceptable in absolutely every walk of life.

The Muppet wrote:

BTW There was a reason I didn't call them Liverpool Fans or supporters, I was making the distinction between the idiots that we all admit are attracted to all clubs and the genuine fan.

This is the sort of false nicety bollox that you use to excuse your behaviour. It doesn't.

Grayditch

PHB wrote: »

If you don't think its true, what exactly were you hoping to engender by posting it.

You know. I know. He knows. Everybody knows, and he is going to get away with it.

PHB

super-rush wrote: »

To be fair differences can occur whether you have two mods or ten. I'm sure most people can easily spot the little things that are ruining the threads, sniping, flaming, back seat modding and low level trolling, so any mod should be able to see whats going on and act on it without rocking the boat.

Maybe this has been the case in previous years but the crap started this season from very early on. I'd give some examples but i stick to the Liverpool super thread and the Liverpool match threads, so it might look like i'm being biased but i see the reported posts come in every time one of the other big clubs play each other or go through a bad patch.

There have been countless threads this season that have turned into train wrecks within minutes of being started and i just think that some extra hands would stop the bull**** before it gets out of hand and ruins the thread for everyone else.

What you're trying to get is preventative methods. IMO, it's impossible, and I mean impossible, to prevent some threads turning into trail wrecks. There is too much traffic, it's an absolutely massive forum that has incredible peaks in posting. The peaks aren't just for matches, sometimes a discussion kicks off in a Superthread and before a mod is online 200-300 posts have been made.

I'd be in favour of more deleting of posts that are utter off-topic, and more creations of side-threads. I'd also be in favour of more stuff taken out of the Superthread as much as possible, as I think while this thread was a bit of a mess, it is much better than it would have been had it been in the Superthread. I'd also be in favour of significantly more warnings. But like, I think the forum is pretty well modded, I think the issue is primarily with the users sadly. The quality of poster just isn't as prevalent as it once was.

LoLth

Mr Alan wrote: »

LoLth, feel free to delete my post if you feel it is required in order to continue this conversation, however, I'm not too sure how we can discuss the style of trolling that is the problem in the SF without referring to examples & why that behaviour should be entirely unacceptable.

Your post is in direct response to a statement made by The Muppet and is actually a post discussing the issues surrounding the subject matter without delving into the subject itself.

However, this thread is feedback on trolling in the soccer forum and should not be limited to one specific instance. The Muppet is free to appeal the mod actions in the DRP if he wishes.

I would like to consider this post the end of the discussion on The Muppet's posting habits in the soccer forum please.

@The Muppet : please refrain from posting in this thread concerning liverpool or Hillsborough. any more and I will treat it as trolling feedback. You've had your say and it is no longer feedback.

The Muppet

LoLth wrote: »

@The Muppet : please refrain from posting in this thread concerning liverpool or Hillsborough. any more and I will treat it as trolling feedback. You've had your say and it is no longer feedback.

Fair enough, I only came here to explain and defend myself. I'll leave ye to it.

K-9

LoLth wrote: »

a discussion that was deemed unsuitable on another forum (under the guise of talking about the issues surrounding the original topic) is too far and is something that will be treated more severely in future.

Just to clarify this, was the thread deleted because it was off topic or the discussion itself unsuitable for the soccer forum? Basically, was the thread deleted for being off topic or because of complaints about comments within it?

I can't remember if any mod warnings were about the thread going off topic. There was a large amount of publicity about the particular show, there was a good chance that particular subject was going to come up as it was topical.

LoLth

***mod note***
PM sent to the Muppet asking him to refrain from posting here concerning Liverpool or Hillsborough as we have had enough discussion of that particluar example of alledged trolling. Any further discussion of that subject is between The Muppet and the mods/cmods/admins.

LoLth

K-9 wrote: »

Just to clarify this, was the thread deleted because it was off topic or the discussion itself unsuitable for the soccer forum? Basically, was the thread deleted for being off topic or because of complaints about comments within it?

I can't remember if any mod warnings were about the thread going off topic. There was a large amount of publicity about the particular show, there was a good chance that particular subject was going to come up as it was topical.

I honestly dont know. I dont follow soccer, I rarely read the soccer forums tbh unless a thread or post is brought to my attention. I havent spoken to the mods about that thread. my concern is threads in feedback.

too often users are treating feedback as a way to continue an argument that was cut short (in the posters opinion) in another forum and use a thread here to bypass mod instructions. (eg: mod says "no more of that posting please" user comes here to start a feedback thread about mods of X forum and then launches into a detailed account of the specific instance including some additional opinions on the subject that was being discussed. Opponents to his opinion/posts then jump in to coutner these additions or question actions or re-assert their own positions and the whole feedback thread stops being feedback and becomes an extension of the original argument.

I dont mod soccer or politics or photography or R&B or DIT. I mod feedback. and so I should only have to mod discussions directly related to feedback in this forum, not decide if X statement is untrue concerning Y group, especially when it is in a topic I freely admit to knowing nothing about (US politics for example). Thats why we have seperate forums and thats why we have mods who (preferably)have an active interest in the topic they are modding.

Mr Alan

I've pointed out to the mods various times that I think mods of the SF should make more use of the boards wide "don't be a dick" rule.

If peoples primary role (& there is a number of them within the SF, whom everyone is aware of) is to annoy the majority of users with their posting style, I think there access should be revoked. End of discussion.

Iago

K-9 wrote: »

Just to clarify this, was the thread deleted because it was off topic or the discussion itself unsuitable for the soccer forum? Basically, was the thread deleted for being off topic or because of complaints about comments within it?

I can't remember if any mod warnings were about the thread going off topic. There was a large amount of publicity about the particular show, there was a good chance that particular subject was going to come up as it was topical.

I'll answer this, seen as how I'm the only one who can.

In short I felt that the thread and some of the posts in it were likely to cause posters within the forum to feel offended and generally disrupt the forum as whole. Deleting it removed it from the immediate firing line and meant a lesser chance of further issues breaking out as a result.

There is a much longer answer, but I think the above constitutes enough of a reason on it's own merits.

K-9

LoLth wrote: »

I honestly dont know. I dont follow soccer, I rarely read the soccer forums tbh unless a thread or post is brought to my attention. I havent spoken to the mods about that thread. my concern is threads in feedback.

too often users are treating feedback as a way to continue an argument that was cut short (in the posters opinion) in another forum and use a thread here to bypass mod instructions. (eg: mod says "no more of that posting please" user comes here to start a feedback thread about mods of X forum and then launches into a detailed account of the specific instance including some additional opinions on the subject that was being discussed. Opponents to his opinion/posts then jump in to coutner these additions or question actions or re-assert their own positions and the whole feedback thread stops being feedback and becomes an extension of the original argument.

I dont mod soccer or politics or photography or R&B or DIT. I mod feedback. and so I should only have to mod discussions directly related to feedback in this forum, not decide if X statement is untrue concerning Y group, especially when it is in a topic I freely admit to knowing nothing about (US politics for example). Thats why we have seperate forums and thats why we have mods who (preferably)have an active interest in the topic they are modding.

True and I've tried to not do that, it's an emotive subject with some terrible allegations, without going over it but giving you some idea of how bad it was, allegations that supporters kicked in the head police officers administering the kiss of death and pissed down on them from the upper stand, allegations that supporters pick pocketed victims and sexually assaulted them. None of these were ever proven and not even that, public inquiries and inquests refuted them and the paper who printed subsequently retracted them, though about 7/8 years later.

To put it in context and try and take it away from a soccer topic and more a Feedback one, in an emotional subject like that I think the onus should be on the questioner to come up with "facts" or some sort of evidence to back up their reasoning. It's a bit like, Godwin's thread, somebody saying I don't think as many people died in Auschwitz as the media and authorities make out. The onus of proof is on them to come up with some "evidence" to back that up. Just saying it or questioning it without any "evidence" is going to be offensive to many.

Now Soccer by its very nature is a subjective thing, often a matter of opinion and generally if somebody says well it is my opinion, such and such a team aren't going to win tomorrow, people can choose to debate or ignore it. This particular case doesn't really allow for subjective opinion, it is too emotional a topic to say something inflammatory and then say, well it's my opinion and that's that. The thread is guaranteed to get heated. Basically, the onus of proof in cases like this is on the questioner and it needs more than, well, that is my opinion and tough!

The reason I'd be interested in the reason for deletion is to see what was the main reason for deleting it as it gives posters an idea of what is or isn't allowed in the forum.

K-9

Iago wrote: »

I'll answer this, seen as how I'm the only one who can.

In short I felt that the thread and some of the posts in it were likely to cause posters within the forum to feel offended and generally disrupt the forum as whole. Deleting it removed it from the immediate firing line and meant a lesser chance of further issues breaking out as a result.

There is a much longer answer, but I think the above constitutes enough of a reason on it's own merits.

Definitely understand the reasoning for deleting it, I actually seen a link to it on the Liverpool fc trend topic on twitter, so it was attracting more attention that normal.

It would be interesting to get a more general answer, without obviously getting personal or getting into specifics on it, it's a topic that will come up again and indeed, others like it.

Dub13

You have to look at this from the soccer mods point of view,on one hand we have people asking for users to be pro-actively banned and on the other hand we have people saying this mod is bias as he is a Utd/Liverpool fan.

For users who continue to sail close to the wind and disrupt the forum,I would like to see some kind of system were they can be taken out of the forum and just banned.This has happened before on the site but we just have to make sure the call is right,there is no standard operating procedure for stuff like this.

Mr Alan

Dub13 wrote: »

You have to look at this from the soccer mods point of view,on one hand we have people asking for users to be pro-actively banned and on the other hand we have people saying this mod is bias as he is a Utd/Liverpool fan.

In fairness, as far as I'm aware, the only person who has made that accusation is Amy/Niallo, who is one of the posters who should be banned. So I wouldn't put much weight in what he/she has said.

Kess73

K-9 wrote: »

Definitely understand the reasoning for deleting it, I actually seen a link to it on the Liverpool fc trend topic on twitter, so it was attracting more attention that normal. It would be interesting to get a more general answer, without obviously getting personal or getting into specifics on it, it's a topic that will come up again and indeed, others like it.

It has attracted a fair bit more attention than that now.

K-9

Kess73 wrote: »

It has attracted a fair bit more attention than that now.

Right. Where is it being talked about now?

Dub13

Mr Alan wrote: »

In fairness, as far as I'm aware, the only person who has made that accusation is Amy/Niallo, who is one of the posters who should be banned. So I wouldn't put much weight in what he/she has said.

I am not just talking about this thread,over the years I think its safe to say all soccer mods have been accused of been bias at some stage.We need a mechanism were the cmods,admins and maybe ever some decent posters have an input into taken a user out of the forum.

The Recliner

Dub13 wrote: »

For users who continue to sail close to the wind and disrupt the forum,I would like to see some kind of system were they can be taken out of the forum and just banned.This has happened before on the site but we just have to make sure the call is right,there is no standard operating procedure for stuff like this.

If you (as a group of Mods) feel that a user/users are causing too much unrest or work for Mods then you can ban them for that, it doesn't have to be covered in the charter

You just need the balls to do it and to stand over the decision in the DRP process

Don't be a dick covers a lot of things and it is perfectly acceptable to ban someone from a forum under that rule and the type of thing that is being discussed in this thread definitely falls under the heading of being a dick

IMO there is too much hand wringing and worrying about upsetting people these days before someone is banned, the greater good of the forum should be taken into consideration over the rights of the individual particularly if an individual is abusing their posting rights

Ban people who act up (even if it is constant low level trolling rather than out and out charter breaches) and deal with the consequences later, if the decision is over turned no big deal, it might teach them to value their access more

Dub13

The Recliner wrote: »

If you (as a group of Mods) feel that a user/users are causing too much unrest or work for Mods then you can ban them for that, it doesn't have to be covered in the charter

You just need the balls to do it and to stand over the decision in the DRP process

Don't be a dick covers a lot of things and it is perfectly acceptable to ban someone from a forum under that rule and the type of thing that is being discussed in this thread definitely falls under the heading of being a dick

IMO there is too much hand wringing and worrying about upsetting people these days before someone is banned, the greater good of the forum should be taken into consideration over the rights of the individual particularly if an individual is abusing their posting rights

Ban people who act up (even if it is constant low level trolling rather than out and out charter breaches) and deal with the consequences later, if the decision is over turned no big deal, it might teach them to value their access more

Thats one way of doing it.I am just saying the other way is to have it sorted before we carry out the ban,it may take slightly longer but it will be watertight.

Kess73

K-9 wrote: »

Right. Where is it being talked about now?

PM sent. Please don't repeat in forum.

Mr Alan

The Recliner wrote: »

If you (as a group of Mods) feel that a user/users are causing too much unrest or work for Mods then you can ban them for that, it doesn't have to be covered in the charter

You just need the balls to do it and to stand over the decision in the DRP process

Don't be a dick covers a lot of things and it is perfectly acceptable to ban someone from a forum under that rule and the type of thing that is being discussed in this thread definitely falls under the heading of being a dick

IMO there is too much hand wringing and worrying about upsetting people these days before someone is banned, the greater good of the forum should be taken into consideration over the rights of the individual particularly if an individual is abusing their posting rights

Ban people who act up (even if it is constant low level trolling rather than out and out charter breaches) and deal with the consequences later, if the decision is over turned no big deal, it might teach them to value their access more

This is absolutely spot on imo.

murpho999

The Recliner wrote: »

If you (as a group of Mods) feel that a user/users are causing too much unrest or work for Mods then you can ban them for that, it doesn't have to be covered in the charter

You just need the balls to do it and to stand over the decision in the DRP process

Don't be a dick covers a lot of things and it is perfectly acceptable to ban someone from a forum under that rule and the type of thing that is being discussed in this thread definitely falls under the heading of being a dick

IMO there is too much hand wringing and worrying about upsetting people these days before someone is banned, the greater good of the forum should be taken into consideration over the rights of the individual particularly if an individual is abusing their posting rights

Ban people who act up (even if it is constant low level trolling rather than out and out charter breaches) and deal with the consequences later, if the decision is over turned no big deal, it might teach them to value their access more

Totally agree with this.

If you changed "Don't be a dick' to 'Don't be a Muppet' then you're laughing.:pac:

Dub13

Lads,I am not saying you approach is simplistic but its easy to say ban this person and that one as they are no good for the forum.Its like FG before the election they were going to change the world but when they looked at things ended up doing very little.

The soccer forum means a lot to people,if I am going to take away the right to post I want to be on firm ground and have a consensus among more than just the soccer mods.

The Recliner

Dub13 wrote: »

Thats one way of doing it.I am just saying the other way is to have it sorted before we carry out the ban,it may take slightly longer but it will be watertight.

Don't get me wrong, I would be all for a community type process on decision making like you suggest, I think it could work very well and by getting people involved it leads to greater transparancy and buy in

But that is a long way off and in the mean time the process that exists can be utilised, you guys can use your descretion and experience to make judgements, it is why you were trusted with the positions

Any accusations of Bias are just people looking for an excuse, it would be easy to prove if there was bias, there isn't any in the soccer forum and the Mods are chosen because they have shown that they can detatch themselves from club bias

Mr Alan

Dub13 wrote: »

Lads,I am not saying you approach is simplistic but its easy to say ban this person and that one as they are no good for the forum.Its like FG before the election they were going to change the world but when they looked at things ended up doing very little.

The soccer forum means a lot to people,if I am going to take away the right to post I want to be on firm ground and have a consensus among more than just the soccer mods.

Paul, I think people are only talking about in extreme cases (I certainly am).

K-9

Dub13 wrote: »

Lads,I am not saying you approach is simplistic but its easy to say ban this person and that one as they are no good for the forum.Its like FG before the election they were going to change the world but when they looked at things ended up doing very little.

The soccer forum means a lot to people,if I am going to take away the right to post I want to be on firm ground and have a consensus among more than just the soccer mods.

The general consensus seems to be that you all are doing a good job so if ye all came to a consensus decision most would have no problem with it.

It's a shame because a few decent posters have been lost for reacting to trolls or "rule book" type infractions and others seem to get away with "subtle" trolling.

Jazzy

is it safe to say then that something will be done about the casual trolling on the soccer forum then?

keane2097

You could just ban literally four or five (if even) people that everybody knows about, nobody would miss, and the soccer forum would improve dramatically.

I'd be happy enough to give the mods that mandate personally.

The Recliner

Dub13 wrote: »

The soccer forum means a lot to people,if I am going to take away the right to post I want to be on firm ground and have a consensus among more than just the soccer mods.

IMO if they valued their access that much then they wouldn't end up on your radar enough to merit this discussion

Mr Alan

keane2097 wrote: »

You could just ban literally four or five (if even) people that everybody knows about, nobody would miss, and the soccer forum would improve dramatically.

I'd be happy enough to give the mods that mandate personally.

Me too.