Trolling in the Soccer Forum and other problems.

Dub13

Mr Alan wrote: »

Paul, I think people are only talking about in extreme cases (I certainly am).

But one persons extreme case is not over the line for others,anytime you get into none straight forward black and white situation's it gets messy and fast on the soccer forum.

Don't get me wrong I ma not against the idea I just want a robust process so its done right.After whats gone on the last while and by seen whats happening behind the scene's I think we may be close to getting somewhere on this.

Wolfe Tone

I think its a disgrace that you can spout sh!te like he has and not get banned yet if you call a player a scumbag in the heat of the moment you get banned.

keane2097

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think its a disgrace that you can spout sh!te like he has and not get banned yet if you call a player a scumbag in the heat of the moment you get banned.

plusabillion

Dub13

The Recliner wrote: »

IMO if they valued their access that much then they wouldn't end up on your radar enough to merit this discussion

But what we are talking about here is lads who are on the radar but are smart enough in what they are doing not to get banned.

Dont be at yourself

Dub13 wrote: »

But one persons extreme case is not over the line for others,anytime you get into none straight forward black and white situation's it gets messy and fast on the soccer forum.

It's not about consensus or a decision that everyone can stand up and say was right. Mods are appointed for their judgement, so they should have faith and courage in their convictions (moral courage der, Bill). Constantly trying to build a consensus and make sure everyone is happy with every decision ultimately hamstrings those making the decisions.

_blank_

There is no "heat of the moment" on internet forums.

you have to open the thread, click reply, type the message, read it before posting then click submit.

And usually when a player is getting abused in match threads, there is more than one word in the posts, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen

scumbag

a single line post with just that, or similar, word(s).

"Heat of the moment" is a bullshít cop-out on the part of the poster who posted the thing, in my opinion.

In non-match threads it is even more laughable a defence.

keane2097

Dub13 wrote: »

But what we are talking about here is lads who are on the radar but are smart enough in what they are doing not to get banned.

You guys are obv smart enough to spot these guys, just ban them.

If someone is genuinely posting retarded stuff not realising then a ban is still a perfectly useful tool in getting them to reassess their behaviour.

I'd be setting a pretty low line on how often ye would get it wrong though tbh.

K-9

Des wrote: »

There is no "heat of the moment" on internet forums.

you have to open the thread, click reply, type the message, read it before posting then click submit.

And usually when a player is getting abused in match threads, there is more than one word in the posts, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen



a single line post with just that, or similar, word(s).

"Heat of the moment" is a bullshít cop-out on the part of the poster who posted the thing, in my opinion.

In non-match threads it is even more laughable a defence.

It also doesn't add much to the thread and will only bait rival fans leading to car crash threads.

Wolfe Tone

Des wrote: »

There is no "heat of the moment" on internet forums.

you have to open the thread, click reply, type the message, read it before posting then click submit.

And usually when a player is getting abused in match threads, there is more than one word in the posts, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen



a single line post with just that, or similar, word(s).

"Heat of the moment" is a bullshít cop-out on the part of the poster who posted the thing, in my opinion.

In non-match threads it is even more laughable a defence.

I got 4 yellow cards for posts all close to one another that I made about Gatusso after he headbutted Joe Jordan. And I got a 6 month ban. I think I was a fair enough poster who didnt cause trouble, that was obviously out of character and "in the heat of the moment.

other users have posted worse content and thats grand. I dont think its unreasonable for me to feel hard done by.

You have a poster like myself who loses the head for a ten minute period and calls a player a scumbag who receives a load of yellows a few days later when a mod goes through the thread. I get banned, yet you have posters who do nothing else but cause trouble and they dont get punished.

The Recliner

Dub13 wrote: »

But what we are talking about here is lads who are on the radar but are smart enough in what they are doing not to get banned.

Not entirely true, if they were that smart they wouldn't be on the radar

They don't get banned because what they are doing isn't a blatant breach of rules, it is actually worse than that because they know the rules and are intentionally posting in such a way as to get around them, it is a tricky situation alright but to be honest I think a few bannings would be justifiable and you could easily defend your actions in the DRP

SlickRic

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think its a disgrace that you can spout sh!te like he has and not get banned yet if you call a player a scumbag in the heat of the moment you get banned.

i don't know how this excuse ever got any merit.

there are at least 3 separate actions you have to take before you post a message on a forum.

'heat of the moment' is shouting 'prick' at a driver who cut you off, not typing and sending a message.

this is off the OP's original point, so to come back, and to echo Dub's point, i believe we're getting somewhere on this, but we need patience from people that a mechanism is put in place for these troublemakers who skirt the rules, including input from people above our heads, so that it can be used in future instances without a whole lot of flak.

the reality is that if we go about this haphazard, there will come a point down the line where certain posters will feel people are troublemakers again, and we don't want a situation where the mods can just be trigger happy. there needs to be a mechanism IMO. and as soon as that's in place, i believe this will be sorted, and the resolutions people want, for the longterm good of the forum, will be reached.

*fúcking hell...when did i start sounding like a politician??!!

The Recliner

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I got 4 yellow cards for posts all close to one another that I made about Gatusso after he headbutted Joe Jordan. And I got a 6 month ban. I think I was a fair enough poster who didnt cause trouble, that was obviously out of character and "in the heat of the moment.

Muppet says liverpool fans molested people at Hillsborough and thats grand. I dont think its unreasonable for me to feel hard done by.

You have a poster like myself who loses the head for a ten minute period and calls a player a scumbag who receives a load of yellows a few days later when a mod goes through the thread. I get banned, yet you have posters who do nothing else but cause trouble and they dont get punished.

This thread isn't for the rights and wrongs of a ban (or this forum for that matter)

The DRP is for that but you clearly broke the rules, which you signed up to when you got access, not sure what else you could have expected

it isn't that hard to restrain yourself when you ahev to type up a reply

SlickRic

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

edit: removed reported content quoted. I dont think its unreasonable for me to feel hard done by.

FFS, what mod has even initimated this?

none, that's how many.

before this thread was even in place we were aware of what happened, and were discussing what to do. this isn't as simple as an infraction, or week-long ban, and that's it.

we're actually finding out a way to solve the problem that will cause as little problem in the longterm.

Wolfe Tone

SlickRic wrote: »

FFS, what mod has even initimated this?

none, that's how many.

before this thread was even in place we were aware of what happened, and were discussing what to do. this isn't as simple as an infraction, or week-long ban, and that's it.

we're actually finding out a way to solve the problem that will cause as little problem in the longterm.

Just ban people who constantly take the mick

_blank_

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I got 4 yellow cards for posts all close to one another that I made about Gatusso after he headbutted Joe Jordan. And I got a 6 month ban. I think I was a fair enough poster who didnt cause trouble, that was obviously out of character and "in the heat of the moment.

Muppet says liverpool fans molested people at Hillsborough and thats grand. I dont think its unreasonable for me to feel hard done by.

You have a poster like myself who loses the head for a ten minute period and calls a player a scumbag who receives a load of yellows a few days later when a mod goes through the thread. I get banned, yet you have posters who do nothing else but cause trouble and they dont get punished.

"heat of the moment" could, possibly, a miniscule probability in my mind, cover a single comment in one post.

not 4 separate posts, no way.

sorry buddy, playing the woe is me card in this instance doesn't stack up as a defence for you.

"lost the head"? step back from the keyboard then, or did you lose all self control, apart from your fingers?

Wolfe Tone

Des wrote: »

"heat of the moment" could, possibly, a miniscule probability in my mind, cover a single comment in one post.

not 4 separate posts, no way.

sorry buddy, playing the woe is me card in this instance doesn't stack up as a defence for you.

"lost the head"? step back from the keyboard then, or did you lose all self control, apart from your fingers?

The only reason I feel aggrieved is that I was banned for something pretty tame yet others dont for constant flaming, baiting and disruption.

keane2097

Change the phrase "heat of the moment" to "in a fit of rage" to avoid pedantism imo.

Mr Alan

Dub13 wrote: »

But what we are talking about here is lads who are on the radar but are smart enough in what they are doing not to get banned.

I think if someone is on the radar for a long time as a trouble maker & it is all they really offer to the place, then the mods should just get rid.

"you're being a dick son! see ye later!"

They may be smart enough to avoid technically breaking the rules regarding trolling etc etc in the charter, however, they're breaking the boards wide rule against being a dick.

The banning will most likely be appealled & then the details can be fleshed out then with input from mods/forum users/admins etc etc. Why you've been banned, the kind of behaviour that would be required if you were to gain access to the forum again etc.

Perhaps at this juncture the mods/admins if willing to, could offer parole after a ban to the user with a list of strict tailor made conditions.

For example, a user gets banned for constantly winding up City fans (albeit, technically within the rules), they could then be advised that their access is being granted back to the forum on the basis that this behaviour is unacceptable, that they are banned from City match threads & they can only be allowed 10% of their monthly posts in the City thread. Obviously this is fairly draconian, but tbh, if you want to deal with the kind of casual trolling we're talking about, it could be done. Or simply just ban them from the City thread & match threads. They are still free to discuss their own club & any general football matters.

For a real life example, The Muppet is permabanned for years for winding up opposition fans-then gets his access back, presumably under the condition that he will behave & turn over a new leaf etc....

Yet here we are-with thousands of posts made by him baiting & arguing with Liverpool fans since his return, in every Liverpool thread thats been & almost posting exclusively in these threads, and we're discussing whether or not he is entitled to say what he had said & cause serious offence to a lot of readers of the forum.
Where's the sense in that?
Once it became apparent that he had NOT turned over a new leaf & was only really interested in engaging in flame wars or whatever they're called with Liverpool fans again, like his first time in the SF, access should have been revoked instantly.

Dave!

The Recliner wrote: »

If you (as a group of Mods) feel that a user/users are causing too much unrest or work for Mods then you can ban them for that, it doesn't have to be covered in the charter

You just need the balls to do it and to stand over the decision in the DRP process

Don't be a dick covers a lot of things and it is perfectly acceptable to ban someone from a forum under that rule and the type of thing that is being discussed in this thread definitely falls under the heading of being a dick

IMO there is too much hand wringing and worrying about upsetting people these days before someone is banned, the greater good of the forum should be taken into consideration over the rights of the individual particularly if an individual is abusing their posting rights

Ban people who act up (even if it is constant low level trolling rather than out and out charter breaches) and deal with the consequences later, if the decision is over turned no big deal, it might teach them to value their access more

Totally spot on here.

The admins pick people they trust to be mods, the mods post every day so know the users, and there are a few users that everyone can see are just there to annoy people.

"Don't be a dick" is broad enough that these users can be banned, and the forum will be a 10x better place.

It isn't a democracy, we don't have to listen to every frivilous appeal and make sure that the crime is covered under a particular rule/law! Just make a decision and do it. There are border cases where you can exercise caution, but there are 100% clearcut cases too, and everyone knows who they are. Easy.

PHB

keane2097 wrote: »

You could just ban literally four or five (if even) people that everybody knows about, nobody would miss, and the soccer forum would improve dramatically.

I'd be happy enough to give the mods that mandate personally.

I think a lot of us would disagree on who the four or five people are

Dave!

PHB wrote: »

I think a lot of us would disagree on who the four or five people are

It's alright PHB, you're safe...







...for now...

amiable

Dave! wrote: »

It's alright PHB, you're safe...







...for now...

Damn!

keane2097

PHB wrote: »

I think a lot of us would disagree on who the four or five people are

Just start with the one everybody agrees with then.

bamboozling

I know it's a bit off the wall but is there anything to be said for having a sub committee of sorts who don't have moderation power but the moderators consult them to gauge opinions and the direction of the forum.

These would have to excellent posters and well respected.

It would be a handy base to choose future moderators from as well.

They could warn moderators as to trolls and if a thread is about to go south.

It could work as like a shop steward to give feedback to the mods and to give feed forward to the users.

I would think people like Kess73 (Liverpool), MitchConner(United), L'Prof (Arsenal), Everdead.ie (Other English Club), Redout (Europe) and Des (LOI).

Maybe it's a daft idea and it might not achieve much, but it is feedback so I'm putting it out there. Rubbish as you wish.

Dont be at yourself

Yeah, because we need more red-tape and beurocracy...

I really don't see why the mods just man up and turf out the troublemakers. Even if they're not explicitly breaking rules in the charter, their removal can be justified. Not that it even has to be justified...

Bobeagleburger

It's probably being asked already but can a poster be banned from a specific thread in a forum on Boards?

amiable

In fairness without sounding like i'm kissing arse here give the mods a break and let them have the time to make the correct decisions.

I've had a couple of small tiffs with a couple of them but on reflection i was probably being a dick so i think they do a good job.

Tbh, having one of the biggest trolls/wind up merchants/whatever you want to call it, on the Soccer Forum acting as a moderator is a bad start....... and kind of undermines the "don't be a d1ck" rule. It's a pity as I think every single other soccer mod does an excellent job but the "big dog" trolls the forum free reign for fun.

Mod Edit: post restored follwing conversation. When asked for links to posts that prove trolling by a named user neil1984 responded that he was too busy and would get back to me later. 4 days and still no links or evidence of any sort. Any further accusations of trolling against the same user will be treated as abuse.

I agree that trolling needs to be stamped out and the "don't be a d1ck" rule should be used more often, but this should apply to EVERYONE.

K-9

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's probably being asked already but can a poster be banned from a specific thread in a forum on Boards?

It can't be implemented technically AFAIK, but a posters can be advised not to post in a thread again or get banned. The problem with that is it doesn't stop them going on a superthread or a match thread and trolling there.

Insect Overlord

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's probably being asked already but can a poster be banned from a specific thread in a forum on Boards?

Mods can warn posters not to post in threads again (we've seen an example of that in this thread) but there's no "thread ban" button to fully enforce it.

It's something that needs to be used more often, especially in the club mega-threads.

Edit: K-9 got there first!