Trolling in the Soccer Forum and other problems.

K-9

Le King wrote: »

I agree with the closing of the Soccer Saturday thread. It was completely derailed. If people want to have an agenda about something, leave it off the forum. It was always going to stir something up. Maybe I'd feel different if I was a Liverpool fan. But the discussion of the program was completely derailed.

Actually a poster or 2 asked what was the story with Liverpool and the Sun, posters provided information and links and it grew from there. Posters were being helpful and providing the background.

copacetic

Was wondering if any action was taken over that thread, cam looking for a feedback thread but was hoping it would be about the action taken, not the lack of it. Its easy to say that when you don't have to take the action though.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I really apologise, but with all due respect for this particular case that is utter bollocks. What went on in the thread that sparked this, and what is crystal clear in the body of work built up by the most prominent of these low level trolls just cannot be explained away anymore as "engaging in debate".

Thats clear to most of us, but the way boards works puts the mods in a difficult position. The types of posters we are discussing here are the very ones who will send 100s of PMs and start loads of help desk and DRP threads taking up everyone's time and reducing their will to live. For certain they'll be entertained and maybe rightly so in case of a genuine grievance. We appear to have difficulty writing these people off early enough and just removing their forum rights and appeal rights.

However I wouldn't want that job myself, a lot of ex mods on this thread who know the different viewpoint you get when you are looking at removing the posting rights from someone when it isnt a clear cut black and white decision. Especially when these posting rights may be an important part of that persons life. You ponder whether the people do actually believe their own delusional posts or if they have other issues that make them post the way they do. As it can be very hard to find any rational reasons for their long term posting styel, just enjoying trolling doesn't seem valid.

For instance there are quite a few posters on this thread who have gone through apparent spells of more short termed deliberate bad behaviour when it was outside their usual style. Is that more of an offence as they knew exactly what they were doing, or less offensive?
It's good to here something might come of this, there was mention earlier that we may lose posters if something isn't done, but imo we've lost piles of posters over last few years because of the constant aggravation of having to sift through piles of crap to get to anything interesting.

copacetic

Excuse the spelling and formatting above, posting from mobile.

One last point on taking action. Personally I do think there are cases like this one where it shouldnt be at all difficult. I can see where the mods, cmods and admins are coming from, but when people who have been given chance after chance after chance still cross well over the line then they had their chances before. They shouldn't be given this 'building of the case' benefit of the doubt, they dont deserve it. They were allowed to continue posting after bad behaviour in the past, they should be walking on eggshells and when they break them, they're gone. Without the hand wringing.

How on earth someone with an incredibly bad history on the forum can go to the DRP and get a ban over turned for it being 'borderline' is beyond me. They aren't on any borderline anymore.

OhNoYouDidn't

It struck me the amount of posters who believe 'getting a reaction' should be a banable offence. There is nothing intrinsicly wrong with getting people to react - it is a chat forum after all.

There are too many Joe Duffy's on the SF who confuse disagreeing with them as trolling and then go looking to have the person banned for simply having the temerity to disagree with them. I'd say they are cracking fun down the pub.

There is trolling on the forum and the mods have to deal with that. My own opinion on their spectacular lack of action on certain threads because they neither understand them or want to understand them, specifically domestic football. I also think some clubs are protected - Liverpool in particular. The Premier Sunday / Heysel debate was a prime example. If it cannot be debated without people crying to mods, don't allow it as a topic on the forum.

Long and short of it, toughen up lads and stop blaming the mods because you are too easily 'offended' by other peoples opinions. If you disagree with someone, they aren't trolling by definition

flahavaj

Jesus Christ I have to laugh at some of the people that are taking a high and mighty stance on trolling and calling for people to be banned. The hypocrisy is stunning tbh. I can spot three blatant WUMs in this thread alone!

The forum is fine, its running much smoother these days than ever before. If you do think somone's on a wind up just ignore them FFS. Also the amount of people that throw out the trolling accusation based on an opposition supporter offering an alternative viewpoint is laughable. People need to develop a thick skin. The foum is imn danger of becoming a humourless place with every bith of craic and banter in danger of being drowned out by cries of trolling. people need to relax, use the ignore function if someone is really hindering their enjoyment of the place and most of all stop whinging.

pickarooney

It's easy to say "man up and ban the trollers."
It's just as easy to say "man up and ignore them."

It takes two to troll, Marge, one to post and one to react.

Aidric

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

There are too many Joe Duffy's on the SF who confuse disagreeing with them as trolling and then go looking to have the person banned for simply having the temerity to disagree with them. I'd say they are cracking fun down the pub.

This isn't just confined to the SF, it's site wide.

Handsome Bob

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

It struck me the amount of posters who believe 'getting a reaction' should be a banable offence. There is nothing intrinsicly wrong with getting people to react - it is a chat forum after all.

There are too many Joe Duffy's on the SF who confuse disagreeing with them as trolling and then go looking to have the person banned for simply having the temerity to disagree with them. I'd say they are cracking fun down the pub.

There is trolling on the forum and the mods have to deal with that. My own opinion on their spectacular lack of action on certain threads because they neither understand them or want to understand them, specifically domestic football. I also think some clubs are protected - Liverpool in particular. The Premier Sunday / Heysel debate was a prime example. If it cannot be debated without people crying to mods, don't allow it as a topic on the forum.

Long and short of it, toughen up lads and stop blaming the mods because you are too easily 'offended' by other peoples opinions. If you disagree with someone, they aren't trolling by definition

These are gross over-simplifications, did you even read the thread?

Otis Driftwood

LZ5by5 wrote: »

These are gross over-simplifications, did you even read the thread?

I think the above (the bolded sections of the post you quoted) are about the topic of trolling on the SF in general as LoLth has already stated that the whole Hillsborough thing is to be put to bed.

Trolling occurs on pretty much every forum on boards,tis the internet after all and it will never be stamped out as its just too damn easy for people hiding behind a keyboard to get their jollies by intentionally winding other users up.

There are few things that are as divisive and as unifying as soccer anywhere in the world with perhaps the only exceptions being politics and religon but with politics or religon there has to be a certain level of knowledge to be a "successful" troll,not so with soccer.Anyone can check soccer results and go and troll the forum giving digs to the losing teams supporters and they will invariably get a rise out of someone.

Older or more experienced posters know to ignore the obvious eegits and ime when they dont get the desired rise they toddle off and try and find someone else to piss off or they end up getting banned,either way,its win win.

I feel people need to stop being so precious about every perceived slight though.If you have a problem with posts,report them and ignore them.If the mods deem them actionable they will be actioned.

Its been said here a few times already that defining trolling,particularly in the SF is horribly difficult and it is.Look at the Roy Keane thread yesterday,certain users completly ignored well documented facts about a few things for the sole reason (I believe) to agitate other users.When they got called on it they trotted out the old "its not up to me to prove it,its up to you" line which again serves to piss people off.There was nothing too blatant about it however its pretty clear of the intentions imo.

Id love to see a break down of reported posts based on who supports which team (impossible,I know) cos Id bet dollars to donuts that the most posts reported by Man United fans were posted by Liverpool fans and most the posts reported by Liverpool fans were posted by Man United fans and that comes down to the age old rivalry between the two clubs.

There is always going to be banter when it comes to footy and I have to say the posting style on the SF by most people is very respectful of opposition in comparison to pretty much every other soccer forum Ive ever read so for that the posters and the mod team should be commended.

Take an average Saturday night after a big game and you are out for pints with yer mates that are rival fans.You reckon that they arent absolutely lambasting the opposition throwing out horrendous insults etc?Of course not,its part and parcel of the game and I personally love that aspect of it,getting one over on yer friends,slagging eachother etc.If you dont enjoy stuff like that then maybe you shouldnt be watching football at all.

Id hate to see the SF become any more sanitised than it is.I think there is a good balance of well argued and thought out stuff as well as the bit of craic.Its depressing to see posts being reported for the most frivilous of reasons.

tl;dr

People need to have a group unbunching of their panties and stop taking everything so bloody seriously cos the fun will end up being sucked out of the forum altogether.

OhNoYouDidn't

LZ5by5 wrote: »

These are gross over-simplifications, did you even read the thread?

Yes, and you clearly didn't if you are asking me did I.

Hillsboro is an emotive topic, that is understood. But like it or not, there isn't a consensus on some of the issues around the tragedy. If Liverpool fans cannot debate the topic without deciding that anyone who deviates from their narrative is trolling rather than just has a different opinion then one of the following should happen:

- anyone who disagrees with them is reported for trolling and the mods ban them on request (the current state)
- they grow up and deal with the fact its a multi fan forum and there will be opinions that differ from theirs, or even offends them on occasion(what should happen)
- the topic is taboo and the mods don't allow any discussion of it (which no-one really wants).

I stand by my statement that the line between trolling and genuine debate and disagreement has been blurred because a culture of rats has been allowed fester on parts the SF. Man U fans trying to get Liverpool fans banned and vice versa. Christ on a Honda, the Celtic and Rangers fans have a better relationship and engage each other in a more grown up fashion.

Dont be at yourself

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes, and you clearly didn't if you are asking me did I.

Hillsboro is an emotive topic, that is understood. But like it or not, there isn't a consensus on some of the issues around the tragedy. If Liverpool fans cannot debate the topic without deciding that anyone who deviates from their narrative is trolling rather than just has a different opinion then one of the following should happen:

- anyone who disagrees with them is reported for trolling and the mods ban them on request (the current state)
- they grow up and deal with the fact its a multi fan forum and there will be opinions that differ from theirs, or even offends them on occasion(what should happen)
- the topic is taboo and the mods don't allow any discussion of it (which no-one really wants).

I stand by my statement that the line between trolling and genuine debate and disagreement has been blurred because a culture of rats has been allowed fester on parts the SF. Man U fans trying to get Liverpool fans banned and vice versa. Christ on a Honda, the Celtic and Rangers fans have a better relationship and engage each other in a more grown up fashion.

Liverpool fans have no problem discussing Hillsborough. It has been discussed many times. But there's a line between debate and trolling. What happened at Hillsborough is a matter of record, accepted by the government, the police, the club, the fans, the victims' families, even the Sun newspaper.

To hash up disgusting and insulting proven lies is not debate and does a massive disservice to those who do like to engage in debate and discussion on the forum.

OhNoYouDidn't

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Liverpool fans have no problem discussing Hillsborough. It has been discussed many times. But there's a line between debate and trolling. What happened at Hillsborough is a matter of record, accepted by the government, the police, the club, the fans, the victims' families, even the Sun newspaper.

To hash up disgusting and insulting proven lies is not debate and does a massive disservice to those who do like to engage in debate and discussion on the forum.

So debate with them. Clarify these supposed 'lies'. Engage and educate.

Don't go crying troll and trying to get people banned every singe time someone makes a statement you disagree with.

mike65

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So debate with them. Clarify these supposed 'lies'. Engage and educate.

Don't go crying troll and trying to get people banned every singe time someone makes a statement you disagree with.

Why should anyone waste time with someone (like The Muppet in this case) who is not interested in education or enlightenment and is merely taking the piss to get a reaction?

K-9

Yeah, think we all know some posters are far too precious and report posts for silly reasons, the mods have told us that plenty of times.

That's a separate discussion which I'm sure will come up again on the general feedback thread in the Summer.

This one is about low level trolling. The "report it to the mods line" doesn't really work as the mods themselves, both past and present, have said their hands are tied to a degree. They'd like to act but can't for different reasons. So the "report the post" point is redundant, even admitted by the mods.

The "high level" trolls do get dealt with, don't think there is many issues with that. If anything they get too much leeway, I mean 6 yellow cards! though I think mods have said they can ban without 6 cards.

Anyway, wasn't really going to post as this will drag on with posters pleading the "free speech" line. It's with the mods, nearly everybody agrees they are doing a good job, so we'll see what they come up with.

Handsome Bob

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So debate with them. Clarify these supposed 'lies'. Engage and educate.

Don't go crying troll and trying to get people banned every singe time someone makes a statement you disagree with.

Because they're not interested in debate, thus there's no point trying to clarify their lies, because they sure as **** aren't interested in listening.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So debate with them. Clarify these supposed 'lies'. Engage and educate.

Don't go crying troll and trying to get people banned every singe time someone makes a statement you disagree with.

Yes, but the burden of proof isn't with Liverpool fans, it's with people questioning what is now the accepted truth, the police lied and covered up, part of the reason the lies were printed. It isn't up to Liverpool fans to present their case. It's up to people like yourself to.

To take it away from Hillsborough, politics has the same rule. Obviously soccer is different and has to allow for opinions, even stupid ones, but in a case like this, the burden lies on you to provide proof.

flahavaj

The forum is like going down to your local for a few pints. There are sound people and there are d*ckheads. There are interesting people and people who bore you to death. There are people who enjoy a bit of craic and there are people who love to wind everyone up.

No matter how much we think banning these mystical "5 or 6 troublemakers" will suddenly solve all the forum's problems, IMo it most certainly won't. Even if these guys were banned tomorrow, we'll still be all in here in ayear's time with another 6 who should be banned. I can tink of 4 guys that everyone was crying to be banned last season who have left, yet here we are a year later with a list of names of more people who should get the door.

Its naive in the extreme to think that on a forum of this size you'd be able to weed out all the messers all of the time. Quite frankly, the mods would be run off their feet. Who decides where to draw the line anyway? If you took a poll of everyone whinging in this thread about who should be banned, they'd all have a different set if names.

Bottom line, you can't control how other people carry on, only yourself. Mass bannings wouldn't make a blind bit of diference, theres always someone else who'll be even better at trolling than the last fella to come along and take their place. Its the internet, there are always going to be pups who want to stir the pot. You can let them have their way and engage them or you can just ignore them and carry on regardless. Its not that hard really.

Also, IMO, throwing out accusations of trolling at everyone and anyone whenever they offer a contrary opinion is just as bad as someone trolling, you'll always have half a dozen sheep who'll join in because it suits them better than having to argue their point - this derails threads more than anything else tbh.

To be honest I'd miss the trolls if they were gone, they keep the place interesting and colourful. Sure look at this threads, what else would the moaners have to whinge about over 17+ pages if they didn't have someone to p*ss and moan about? Relax and see the foum for what it is, a place to chat a bit of chat about football and a bit of p*ss taking. You'll always have a few knobs in every big group of people, get over it. Way too much serious bizness ITT.

I can guarantee as well btw that if the mods really started to rule with an iron fist and infracted every little "discretion" in order to get rid of the bell ends you'd have a thread twice as long next year with everyone p*ssing and moaning about how the place had gotten too strict. Be careful of what ye wish for. We once had a mod on the PW forum who decided he was gonna "clamp down" on a set of posters and in the crossfire he p*ssed off nearly every decent poster in the place and most of them left. it took literally a year of decent moderation to get the place back to its former glory. Be happy with what ye have lads, for a forum of its type, with so many opposition fans interacting, the place runs remarkably smoothly.

OhNoYouDidn't

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Because they're not interested in debate, thus there's no point trying to clarify their lies, because they sure as **** aren't interested in listening.

Then ignore them. Thats life on the internet, fans of all clubs have some nonesense thats thrown at them from time to time. Granted this is a more extreme case, but the principal remains.

mike65 wrote: »

Why should anyone waste time with someone (like The Muppet in this case) who is not interested in education or enlightenment and is merely taking the piss to get a reaction?

I disagree with you on this. He may have been wrong, but, and this is the key point, you assume he was trying to get a reaction as opposed to just being wrong. Thats the core of my argument. Engage or ignore. Less of the running crying to the mods (not directed at you per say).

There is an immaturity on the SF that unfortunatly is ingrained because the mods have mollycoddled certain groups by allowing the report button to basically be used as a -1 and then infract on that basis.

PHB

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I disagree with you on this. He may have been wrong, but, and this is the key point, you assume he was trying to get a reaction as opposed to just being wrong. Thats the core of my argument. Engage or ignore. Less of the running crying to the mods (not directed at you per say).

Sorry, does trolling exist at all? If so, how do you distinguish it?

OhNoYouDidn't

PHB wrote: »

Sorry, does trolling exist at all? If so, how do you distinguish it?

Of course it does and I have stated it does. But not every single post contrary to your opinion is trolling, which some posters seem to think it is.

Distinguishing is the job of the mods, but the point I am making is there is a sense of entitlement with some posters that they are entitled to have posters clamped just for disagreeing with them. That has to stop too.

PHB

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Of course it does and I have stated it does. But not every single post contrary to your opinion is trolling, which some posters seem to think it is.

Distinguishing is the job of the mods, but the point I am making is there is a sense of entitlement with some posters that they are entitled to have posters clamped just for disagreeing with them. That has to stop too.

That does have to stop. However, as has been pointed out, there are plently of instances of trolling too.

You said in relation to previous debates that you should debate and not going crying to the mod. However, in some situations, people are just trolling. They specifically want the debate, and they want it to denigrate into ****. These situations are plentiful at present, and this is what we're talking about.

Jazzy

PHB wrote: »

That does have to stop. However, as has been pointed out, there are plently of instances of trolling too.

You said in relation to previous debates that you should debate and not going crying to the mod. However, in some situations, people are just trolling. They specifically want the debate, and they want it to denigrate into ****. These situations are plentiful at present, and this is what we're talking about.

exactly. experienced users know what buttons to press in order to provoke a reaction and cause trouble and know exactly how to get away with it too.

OhNoYouDidnt wrote:

Hillsboro is an emotive topic, that is understood. But like it or not, there isn't a consensus on some of the issues around the tragedy. If Liverpool fans cannot debate the topic without deciding that anyone who deviates from their narrative is trolling rather than just has a different opinion then one of the following should happen:

- anyone who disagrees with them is reported for trolling and the mods ban them on request (the current state)
- they grow up and deal with the fact its a multi fan forum and there will be opinions that differ from theirs, or even offends them on occasion(what should happen)
- the topic is taboo and the mods don't allow any discussion of it (which no-one really wants).

coming from a man that once posted how liverpool fans are murderers (to get a response of course), I can't really take anything you say seriously on the subject of trolling. nothing ive read from you says you've changed since then either so, like it or not, your opinion on trolling is null and void

K-9

PHB wrote: »

However, in some situations, people are just trolling. They specifically want the debate, and they want it to denigrate into ****. These situations are plentiful at present, and this is what we're talking about.

Nail on the head.

There was an interesting point made on the general feedback thread about the feedback charter.

Should posters who've been perma banned from a forum have an equal say to posters who do behave?

stovelid

On my - admittedly brief - scan of this thread, there seems to be a handful of people I would consider to be (or have been) troll turkeys happily voting for the Christmas of preemptive banning.

OhNoYouDidn't

Jazzy wrote: »

coming from a man that once posted how liverpool fans are murderers (to get a response of course), I can't really take anything you say seriously on the subject of trolling. nothing ive read from you says you've changed since then either so, like it or not, your opinion on trolling is null and void

No I didn't.

And the pot is calling the kettle black here - you are hardly squeaky clean on that front

mirwillbeback

Can I ask something here. Boards is a community website, the rules are not legally enforceable. I would think being part of boards is discretionary to a degree.

If the likes of The Muppet are continuing to wind up people by smart use of the rules, why do the Mods not just ban him. Reason - because he's a troll / smartarse / anything. It's clear most people and mods see him as such.

Just asking.

Jazzy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No I didn't.

And the pot is calling the kettle black here - you are hardly squeaky clean on that front

yes, you did. you are just lucky a mod deleted it and unlucky enough that a few people saw and remembered it.

and i just looked through all my warnings and stuff there from soccer - i have 1 warning (not even a yellow card) for trolling and another actual yellow card for it. both were from match threads of big games and getting carried away with it and both times i admitted it straight up. i know, im a loose cannon.

OhNoYouDidn't

Jazzy wrote: »

yes, you did. you are just lucky a mod deleted it and unlucky enough that a few people saw and remembered it.

No I didn't. You are wrong.

The Muppet

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Can I ask something here. Boards is a community website, the rules are not legally enforceable. I would think being part of boards is discretionary to a degree.

If the likes of The Muppet are continuing to wind up people by smart use of the rules, why do the Mods not just ban him. Reason - because he's a troll / smartarse / anything. It's clear most people and mods see him as such.

Just asking.

sure if they were to ban everyone that winds other users up the soccer forum would be decimated would it not?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70290423&postcount=21

Jazzy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No I didn't. You are wrong.

you know, in a weird way id have a bit of respect for you and how you post etc. you would stand by what you said, right or wrong, and you are obviously passionate. but just flat out denying a reality is pathetic. is there no weight in your opinion or what you say? am i just making up that you said what you said cos i dunno, im evil or something? what reason would I have to make up that you said such a thing? Im unsure what mod(s) were on the forum at the time but Im sure one of them can clarify for me if they remember.

flahavaj

Jazzy wrote: »

you know, in a weird way id have a bit of respect for you and how you post etc. you would stand by what you said, right or wrong, and you are obviously passionate. but just flat out denying a reality is pathetic. is there no weight in your opinion or what you say? am i just making up that you said what you said cos i dunno, im evil or something? what reason would I have to make up that you said such a thing? Im unsure what mod(s) were on the forum at the time but Im sure one of them can clarify for me if they remember.

He didn't say they were murderers Jazzy. There's no love lost between me and ONYD but what you're accusing him is offside tbh.

Jazzy

flahavaj wrote: »

He didn't say they were murderers Jazzy. There's no love lost between me and ONYD but what you're accusing him is offside tbh.

he did, it was a good while back. more then 3 years ago. the mods deleted fairly sharpish. he was pretty new to the site at the time

LoLth

OK. This thread has gone from the general to the specific, back to the general and now back to the specific again.

this isnt feedback. This is turning into a trial by popular opinion on who is and is not a troll, complete with posting details of a post that was deleted, most likely for good reason.

The mods are well aware of users feelings about the soccer forum and they are currently discussing how to deal with this going forward. I'm closing this thread as it has gone full circle and it is only fair to give the mods a chance to make a decision based on the feedback that has been given so far.

LoLth