Garda Caution?

Danny_Mc

I recently received a caution from the Gardaí for a "crime" that all involved agree, never actually happened!

I found a sum of money outside a bank (poking out of the ATM to be precise).
As the bank was closed for lunch, I called the branch later and reported my finding "a sum of money" and left my name and number.

This happened over two months ago (Feb 25th)....I heard no more about until I received a call from the bank two weeks ago regarding my transaction that afternoon...

It seems the bank failed to make a note of this and when the owner of this money came looking for it, a criminal case was started as the loss was being
treated as a theft!

As I used the ATM after finding the money (€150) my details were recorded.
The Garda in charge of the investigation even showed me the CCTV footage of myself, and joked with me about crossing me off the "Most Wanted List".

I agreed to sign a statement outlining how I found the money and reported the find to the bank (I even gave them a copy of the phone records proving this).
I am unhappy that I seem to have been cautioned for what we all agree is a crime that never happened!

Is there a way of getting a caution revoked and do I have a legal case against the bank for letting me be treated as a criminal through their own mistake?

Any advice is welcome

MagicSean

Did you actually receive an official adult caution. You know you can only receive one with your consent? You should consult a solicitor and possibly write to the local superintendent too.

Danny_Mc

k_mac wrote: »

Did you actually receive an official adult caution. You know you can only receive one with your consent? You should consult a solicitor and possibly write to the local superintendent too.

Yes I believe I did receive an official caution. As I was filling out what I considered to be a simple statement, the Garda explained that it was a caution (but not to worry about it).... he told me that his Superintendent demanded that it be done that way...

I guess I should have refused there and then eh? Any advice on free legal aid? I'm currently unemployed and I believe solicitors charge an arm a leg for a simple "hello" these days!

MagicSean

An adult caution form is a large a3 form made out in triplicate. In the top right hand side there is a section you have to sign to agree to an adult caution. If you consented to the caution there is not much you can do. It's like pleading guilty and then changing your mind later on. If you have a real objection to it you might start by writing to the super and see how that goes.

Sempai

My understanding is that you were cautioned before making a statement...you are not obliged to say anything ...etc, which is standard in these investigations. Did you actually meet the Superintendent? if not, then you did not receive an Adult Caution, you simply made a statement to the investigating Garda.

MagicSean

Sempai wrote: »

My understanding is that you were cautioned before making a statement...you are not obliged to say anything ...etc, which is standard in these investigations. Did you actually meet the Superintendent? if not, then you did not receive an Adult Caution, you simply made a statement to the investigating Garda.

This sounds more likely. An adult caution would be administered in person by an inspector or higher rank.

coylemj

He would only be cautioned if he was suspected of committing a crime. The Gardai for example don't caution people before they make a witness statement after a traffic accident so why did they caution the OP before he made the statement about finding the cash sticking out of the ATM?

Sounds a bit fishy to me, maybe it was reported as a crime by the bank and the Super wanted to keep his detection rate high so they used the OP as a stooge and gave him an adult caution so they could say the crime was solved!

James Jones

Danny_Mc wrote: »

I am unhappy that I seem to have been cautioned for what we all agree is a crime that never happened!

First of all, find out if you actually were cautioned. Read the Adult Cautioning Scheme.

It must involve an undertaking in writing by the alleged offender that he/she agrees to accept a caution and will not object to the fact of its existence being recorded and made known to a court in the event of a subsequent conviction for a criminal offence

If the Garda involved won't give you a copy, seek it by making a Data Protection request.
Then, if you have been cautioned, you can make a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman.

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

He would only be cautioned if he was suspected of committing a crime. The Gardai for example don't caution people before they make a witness statement after a traffic accident so why did they caution the OP before he made the statement about finding the cash sticking out of the ATM?

Sounds a bit fishy to me, maybe it was reported as a crime by the bank and the Super wanted to keep his detection rate high so they used the OP as a stooge and gave him an adult caution so they could say the crime was solved!

He was suspected of theft so that would be why a cautioned statement was taken.

James Jones wrote: »

First of all, find out if you actually were cautioned. Read the Adult Cautioning Scheme.
If the Garda involved won't give you a copy, seek it by making a Data Protection request.
Then, if you have been cautioned, you can make a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman.

What kind of complaint? If he was adult cautioned and consented to the caution I can't see where the Gardaí have done anything incorrect.

Danny_Mc

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions! My complaint is not so much with the Gardaí as they seem to have just be doing things by the book. What annoys me is that the bank never put two and two together and realised that, when someone reported missing money it might well have been the same money that I had reported finding!

Instead the loss got reported to the Gardaí who went on to treat the missing cash as being stolen! For over two months, this Garda was in and out of the BOI branch working this "case" and not once did anyone suggest that this missing money was found on the very day it was lost!

It should never have gotten as far as the Gardaí in my opinion as the bank clearly made no note of my phone call, and whoever I spoke to must not have even mention it to her colleagues!

I'd like if possible to clear my name of any crime and in some way stick it to the bank :-)

They dropped the ball on this and it has led to me being now known to the local Gardaí and my name on file in relation to to a theft etc.

I have never spoken to a Super Independent and have not signed any official forms. I agreed to sign a statement (on a sheet of foolscap) in order to let all concerned know how I came to be in possession of this cash and to make it clear that no crime was ever intended! The Garda I dealt with said that his Super agreed that no crime was committed but as a case had been opened it had to dealt with as a crime etc. I was led to believe that this is normal and I had nothing to worry about.

Pretty much everyone I told about this told me that I was an idiot to sign anything (or agree to a caution) so now, feeling quite the fool, I'd like to see if I can "clear my name" so to speak!

I guess citizens advice might the way to go from here then?

Thanks again to y'all for the replies..much appreciated

234

k_mac wrote: »

An adult caution form is a large a3 form made out in triplicate. In the top right hand side there is a section you have to sign to agree to an adult caution.

Danny_Mc wrote: »

I have never spoken to a Super Independent and have not signed any official forms. I agreed to sign a statement (on a sheet of foolscap) in order to let all concerned know how I came to be in possession of this cash and to make it clear that no crime was ever intended!

I don't know anything about cautions but if you compare these quotes there are come obvious inconsistencies. You should check with your garda station to see if you did receive an official caution and If so possibly request a copy.

Danny_Mc

James Jones wrote: »

First of all, find out if you actually were cautioned. Read the Adult Cautioning Scheme.....

Hmmm just looking at this .....

"The effect of a formal caution should be substantial. In order to safeguard the interests of society and of the offender and to ensure a consistency of approach by An Garda Síochána, the following conditions must be met before a caution can be administered:

there must be prima facie evidence of the offender’s guilt
the offender must admit the offence
the offender must understand the significance of a caution and
the offender must give an informed consent to being cautioned.

These do not apply to this case so how can a caution apply at all?!

The Garda and his Super both agreed that no crime had been committed....yet they still thought a caution was appropriate?

MagicSean

Danny_Mc wrote: »

Hmmm just looking at this .....

"The effect of a formal caution should be substantial. In order to safeguard the interests of society and of the offender and to ensure a consistency of approach by An Garda Síochána, the following conditions must be met before a caution can be administered:

there must be prima facie evidence of the offender’s guilt
the offender must admit the offence
the offender must understand the significance of a caution and
the offender must give an informed consent to being cautioned.

These do not apply to this case so how can a caution apply at all?!

The Garda and his Super both agreed that no crime had been committed....yet they still thought a caution was appropriate?

You are mixing two things up. From the sounds of it you were not given an adult caution. You gave a cautioned statement. It is the same as a witness statement but anything said in it can be used as evidence against you. A cautioned statement is taken when an arrest and interview is not deemed necessary for the investigation of a crime. The simple thing would be to contact the Garda involved and clarify the status of the case and wether you did in fact receive an adult caution.

Danny_Mc

k_mac wrote: »

You are mixing two things up. From the sounds of it you were not given an adult caution. You gave a cautioned statement. It is the same as a witness statement but anything said in it can be used as evidence against you. A cautioned statement is taken when an arrest and interview is not deemed necessary for the investigation of a crime. The simple thing would be to contact the Garda involved and clarify the status of the case and wether you did in fact receive an adult caution.

Aha! That sounds about right! I was wary of contacting the Garda again if I was going to take legal action and all....they have a way of covering their arses at times.

So a cautioned statement means that I am not on record as having been "cautioned" in any way regarding a crime? Or can a caution (of any kind) be used against me in the unlikely event of me ever being arrested for a real crime?!

If so I still think I should not have been given a caution of any kind whatsoever!

Thanks again

234

Seriously, just call them!

Bosco boy

Clearly whoever was dealing with you did not explain to you what was happening, go back to them and ask them to explain to you what has happened to date and take it from there.

James Jones

k_mac wrote: »

James Jones wrote: »

First of all, find out if you actually were cautioned. Read the Adult Cautioning Scheme.
If the Garda involved won't give you a copy, seek it by making a Data Protection request.
Then, if you have been cautioned, you can make a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman.

What kind of complaint? If he was adult cautioned and consented to the caution I can't see where the Gardaí have done anything incorrect.

According to the Adult Cautioning Scheme(ii)Decision to Caution

• there must be prima facie evidence of the offender’s guilt
  
• the offender must admit the offence
• the offender must understand the significance of a caution and
• the offender must give an informed consent to being cautioned.

So, if he was cautioned but didn't admit to the offence, does not understand the significance of being cautioned or did not consent to being cautioned, then the Garda who administered the caution was wrong and so a complaint should be made.

Danny_Mc wrote: »

I was wary of contacting the Garda again if I was going to take legal action and all....they have a way of covering their arses at times.

I would suggest that you make a Data Protection request for anything on your file. This will be dealt with by the Garda Vetting Unit in Thurles and so you do not have to engage with your local Garda at all.

Mr Jinx

Danny_Mc wrote: »

Aha! That sounds about right! I was wary of contacting the Garda again if I was going to take legal action and all....they have a way of covering their arses at times.

So a cautioned statement means that I am not on record as having been "cautioned" in any way regarding a crime? Or can a caution (of any kind) be used against me in the unlikely event of me ever being arrested for a real crime?!

If so I still think I should not have been given a caution of any kind whatsoever!

Thanks again

this is not an official caution or an admission that you are guilty of any offence. its only cautioning you that anything you do say may be admited as any evidence. your confusing the two.

Danny_Mc

Mr Jinx wrote: »

this is not an official caution or an admission that you are guilty of any offence. its only cautioning you that anything you do say may be admited as any evidence. your confusing the two.

Grand. I guess the word "caution" in there is a bit worrying.

I could argue "evidence of what?" as no crime has been committed eh?

Bosco boy

Danny_Mc wrote: »

Grand. I guess the word "caution" in there is a bit worrying.

I could argue "evidence of what?" as no crime has been committed eh?

The caution is given before you make a statement in case you do incriminate yourself in the statement as it would be used as evidence it goes as follows

" you are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so but whatever you do say will be taken down in writing and my be given in evidence"

Manman5675

My question is how long does a caution last on your private reccord in general no mater if its an informal or a formal caution in irealand of course

Peregrinus

A caution under the adult cautioning scheme stays on your record for ever. But it is not a charge or a conviction and you do not have to disclose it in answer to questions about whether you have ever been charged with or convicted of any offence.

The caution that they administer before taking a statement from you ("You are not obliged to say anything . . .") will remain in the records of the investigation for ever. But it's not a charge or a conviction or an admission of guilt or even an imputation of guilt. It means nothing more than that you at one time under suspicion as a possible offender.