NRA/RPA Merger, Is this a good idea???

Irish and Proud

Leo V plans to merge the NRA and RPA state agancies, and yes, this mirrors what's done in some other countries (examples: CalTrans in California and the former StrathClyde transport agency in Scotland), I don't think it's a good idea in Ireland given the demographic spread. I absolutely agree that Ireland has too many agencies, but I'd have a different idea for NRA:

First of all, there are two stark realities: 1) The major road building programme has substantially wound down given the financial situation and 2) Many Local Authorities are performing very poorly with regard to the planning and development of our Local/Regional road network, particularly in urban districts. Another stark reality is that both the road and rail networks in Ireland have two totally different requirements and functions - roads are largely rural and freight oriented while railways are largely urban and commuter focussed.

I think you guys can see where this is going and you might be right - yes, transfer many of the functions of the Local Authories regarding roads (particularly Regional Roads) to the NRA who would then establish Regional Design Offices in place of the Current NRDOs. Local Authorities and proper road planning frequently don't go in the same breath. There are many examples of abondoned urban regional road developments due to NIMBYism and local politics and in many cases, this has been to the detriment of proper and sustainable planning - Examples include the Tolka Valley Road in Finglas (could have formed part of a good cross city QBC along the R102), the new Baron's Hall area in Balbriggan (a large suburb with no proper distributer roads and virutally impossibly to get through), the lack of a proper western ring road in Swords (though there seems to be plenty of evidence that one was planned through River Valley etc) as well as excessive traffic calming along some important urban regional routes.

Regional Road Planning and Development Structures

In relation to the implementation of the changes to the development and planning of Regional Roads, about 8 regional offices could be established around the country - their remit could be something like this:

1) North East (Cavan, Monaghan, Louth, Meath);
2) Mid East (Dublin City, Fingal, S Dublin, DLR, Kildare, Wicklow);
3) South East (Wexford, Waterford City & Co, Kilkenny, Carlow, Tipperary S);
4) South West (Cork City & Co, Kerry);
5) Mid West (Limerick City & Co, Tipperary N, Clare);
6) West (Galway City & Co, Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim S);
7) North West (Sligo, Leitrim N, Donegal - also dealing with A5 project);
8) Midlands (Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois).

Like the NRA, the regional offices there-under would have executive powers and would plan, develop and maintain regional roads within the respective areas of remit. The NRA would oversee the development of the Regional Road Networks in the overall national context. The Regional Design Offices would also follow the same planning process as the NRA does for national road projects, but would also require NRA approval in order to maintain consistency throughout the country. This suggested system should be robust enough to bypass the complexities and inconsistencies of local politics.

The local authorities would still plan and improve local distributors as well as reviewing plans for estates etc. (including road layouts), but would do so according to standards set down by the NRA's Central Office. These standards would be enforced by the relevant RDO. However, local authorities would not be permitted to install or directly initiate traffic calming measures on Regional Roads (though they may raise safety issues on same) - this function would be the reserve of the relevant RDO. Local Authorities would be allowed however to initiate and implement traffic calming on Local Distributor and Estate Roads, but only in accordance to strict templates and protocols.

NRA Central Office

The NRA would move all of its national road planning, standardization, protocol and administrative functions to a dedicated and purpose built central office. From there, the authority would:

1) Plan and Develop Major National Road Projects;
2) Oversee Regional Design Offices (RDOs);
3) Approve/Reject Regional Road Proposals;
4) Review RDO decisions regarding Local Works by Local Authorities;
5) Maintain and Develop National Road Standards and Learned Procedures;
6) Devise New Standards for Regional, Local and Estate Roads;
7) Devise New Templates for Traffic Calming;
8) Devise New Implementation Protocols for Traffic Calming;
9) Continue Developing Plates for all Road Signage;
10) Ensure Consistency and Appropriateness regarding all Speed Limits.

The NRA Central Office would ensure consistency for all roads across the country. This would include appropriate alignments, cross sections, junctions, signage, lighting, footpath/cycle tracks, traffic regulations and speed limits (speed limits would be devised in conjunction with the RSA).

<more to come>

Aidan1

Local Authorities and proper road planning don't go in the same breath

Fixed that for you.

I see the point you are trying to make, and it's an entirely valid one - but there is an underlying issue here that needs to be addressed. Local Government in Ireland is a sprawling, inefficient mess, due partly to the scalar differences in LAs, partly to the difference in the quality of officials from area to area, and partly to the joke that is the County/City council system. There are a range of iniatives around at the moment which seek to remove 'certain things' from local authority control because of the mess that they have made in the past - this includes everything from waste management, housing policy, spatial planning/zoning, water quality etc. On an individual sectoral basis, each of these makes sense, but at some point the central question has to be asked - if all of these functions are removed from LAs, why bother having them at all? To run the libraries? Seems more sensible to be planning a complete overhaul of the LA system, on the basis of larger areas, with clear delineation of responsibilities between regional and national government. There has to be some severe savings to be found from sharing services across LAs also.

On this specific question, there is a strong case for 'lodging' the NRA with some other body for the foreseeable, mainly so that the State can still get use from the body of highly professional engineers and finance specialists that the Agency has pulled together over the years, and so the hard won corporate knowledge doesn't dissapate into the ether. The RPA (depending on other issues) may yet have work to do in the coming years, and are as good a place as any for that. In the medium term, we will build roads again in this country, and we will need the NRA's expertise in that - after all, there is little point relearning the lessons of the period 1997-2002 all over again, at great expense.

marmurr1916

I would love to see the NRA being given responsibility for all public roads in the state: motorways, national roads, regional roads and local roads.

This works for the Roads Service in NI - no reason why it can't work in the rest of Ireland.

As for local authorities, I don't see why a country with a population of around 4.5 million needs over 30 'top-level' local authorities, with dozens of town councils and a few borough councils too.

IMO, we need a maximum of 8 regional authorities, one for Greater Dublin to incorporate a population of about 1.5 million, and 7 more, each with a population of about 420,000.

The Greater Dublin Authority could be sub-divided into boroughs, as New York City is, to deal with issues of immediate, local concern (eg - parking restrictions).

The other regional authorities could be sub-divided into French-style communes, again dealing with purely local issues (eg - putting a new pedestrian crossing in a village etc).

It's never going to happen though. Most Irish people are far too attached to their local counties. Look at the fuss that was kicked up when minor changes were proposed to the Waterford and Limerick city boundaries.

Irish and Proud

Aidan1 wrote: »

Fixed that for you.

Very good mate!!! :D:D

Aidan1 wrote: »

I see the point you are trying to make, and it's an entirely valid one - but there is an underlying issue here that needs to be addressed. Local Government in Ireland is a sprawling, inefficient mess, due partly to the scalar differences in LAs, partly to the difference in the quality of officials from area to area, and partly to the joke that is the County/City council system. There are a range of iniatives around at the moment which seek to remove 'certain things' from local authority control because of the mess that they have made in the past - this includes everything from waste management, housing policy, spatial planning/zoning, water quality etc. On an individual sectoral basis, each of these makes sense, but at some point the central question has to be asked - if all of these functions are removed from LAs, why bother having them at all? To run the libraries? Seems more sensible to be planning a complete overhaul of the LA system, on the basis of larger areas, with clear delineation of responsibilities between regional and national government. There has to be some severe savings to be found from sharing services across LAs also.

On this specific question, there is a strong case for 'lodging' the NRA with some other body for the foreseeable, mainly so that the State can still get use from the body of highly professional engineers and finance specialists that the Agency has pulled together over the years, and so the hard won corporate knowledge doesn't dissapate into the ether. The RPA (depending on other issues) may yet have work to do in the coming years, and are as good a place as any for that. In the medium term, we will build roads again in this country, and we will need the NRA's expertise in that - after all, there is little point relearning the lessons of the period 1997-2002 all over again, at great expense.

Yes, the above is a good concept and would probably work well. However, I had no intention that the NRA would be downgraded and agree that it would be totally wrong - I would have the National Roads Section downsized, but not down-skilled. All major national road projects (now fewer in number) would move to a single central office which would also preserve and further develop what was learned in the preceding road building programme. Not only that, but the central office would also determine standards for all roads including local and even estate roads (this would replace the DOE's remit regarding roads). Also, the practice of traffic calming would be subject to much more robust standards including templates for physical measures and protocols for their application.

I will be adding text to my first post where there'll be more on the above.

Thanks for the reply though - it's very interesting and well thought out!

Irish and Proud

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I would love to see the NRA being given responsibility for all public roads in the state: motorways, national roads, regional roads and local roads.

This works for the Roads Service in NI - no reason why it can't work in the rest of Ireland.

As for local authorities, I don't see why a country with a population of around 4.5 million needs over 30 'top-level' local authorities, with dozens of town councils and a few borough councils too.

IMO, we need a maximum of 8 regional authorities, one for Greater Dublin to incorporate a population of about 1.5 million, and 7 more, each with a population of about 420,000.

The Greater Dublin Authority could be sub-divided into boroughs, as New York City is, to deal with issues of immediate, local concern (eg - parking restrictions).

The other regional authorities could be sub-divided into French-style communes, again dealing with purely local issues (eg - putting a new pedestrian crossing in a village etc).

It's never going to happen though. Most Irish people are far too attached to their local counties. Look at the fuss that was kicked up when minor changes were proposed to the Waterford and Limerick city boundaries.

I won't go into too much detail, but the above is another interesting, alternative and well thought out concept - especially the bit in relation to the restructuring of local government.

Regards!

dubhthach

While they are at it can they merge some of the county councils together. I always find it strange that Tipperary maintain two county councils when counties like Galway and Cork (both larger) have only 1.

Cookie_Monster

Why can't they just merge all the various transport bodies, and there are dozens and dozens, back into the department of transport where they should be anyway. Needless duplication or personnel, equipment, premises and cost.

List:
http://www.transport.ie/about/bodies_under_the_aegis_of_the_Department.asp?lang=ENG&loc=2562

Irish and Proud

BTW, having listen to Leo V this morning, the savings resulting from the NRA/RPA merger would be €3m.

I've just added text to my first post!

Regards!

corktina

Merge? why not just abolish them and all the other layers of burearocracy that seem so necessary nowadays. Tell you what, we could go back to having an elected Goverment deciding what to do and how to do it.

Jayuu

corktina wrote: »

Merge? why not just abolish them and all the other layers of burearocracy that seem so necessary nowadays. Tell you what, we could go back to having an elected Goverment deciding what to do and how to do it.

For many years the attitude was that we needed specialist bodies with people who had the correct qualifications to do these jobs as opposed to Government departments and civil servants who weren't qualifed to do them and who were supposedly more open to politicial interference.

Clearly though the amount of quangos has gotten completely out of hand and rationalisation is necessary. I think we need a co-ordinated transport body which would have full control over our road and rail network so I'm happy enough with the Minister's proposal to merge the NRA and RPA as a starting point. But I think he should go much further with it.

Some of the idea detailed above are great as well. Local government in Ireland is a complete and utter mess and needs wholesale reform and rationalisation. There are far too many county and town councils. However I can't see any government of any colour ever taking on that job because they would in essence be taking on members of their own parties.