Teacher wearing hijab

madame rouge

Looking for a bit of advice here. I'm a muslim convert and a secondary school teacher. At the moment I don't wear hijab but am seriously thinking about wearing it. Although I have never hidden the fact that I'm muslim it is not something that students or parents would be aware of. I'm worried about the backlash at school from students, parents and maybe even my colleagues. Would I even be allowed to wear it at school? What about those of you that are not muslim? What would you think if one of your kids teachers suddenly turned up in hijab?
I know that when I decide to wear hijab it will be for me and not to please or displease anybody else....still, it doesn't make it any easier!

wes

Would you be violating any rules by wearing it? If you aren't then you should be able to wear it if you wish to do so. Sure, my sister was taught by Nuns who wear something very similar to a Hijab, so I don't see why there should be an issue.

Sefirah

Speaking as a non-Muslim, I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be able to wear a headscarf in your workplace. It'd true that secondary school students tend not to be the most mature and I wouldn't really expect a lot from them, but at the end of the day, it's your life and you should be able to live it how you please without needing to justify yourself or get approval from others. I would perhaps run it past the principal or someone in authority, but most definitely not to ask permission, but rather to inform them casually of your decision. There are many kinds of hijab which are very discreet and professional for the workplace, so I don't see how there could be any issues. If anything, I'm jealous :P Ever since I saw women in the Middle East in hijab, I've always thought how graceful and beautiful it looks. As a side note (I know it's not part of the original question!) a really pretty hijabi who has some great styles is this lady- I check her out for make-up tips all the time! http://www.youtube.com/user/Amenakin?feature=chclk
The best of luck- I really admire the bravery of your decision and your commitment to your religion- it can be very difficult to have such convictions, especially somewhere as insular as Ireland, but I'm sure it will get much easier as time goes on

whydoc

Assalam Alaikum

I am not an imam but in surat 3:186, we read:

لَتُبْلَوُنَّ فِى أَمْولِكُمْ وَأَنفُسِكُمْ وَلَتَسْمَعُنَّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ أَذًى كَثِيراً وَإِن تَصْبِرُواْ وَتَتَّقُواْ فَإِنَّ ذلِكَ مِنْ عَزْمِ الاْمُورِ-﴾

You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination.

I hope you find this useful:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/69432
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7745

And don't forgrt Duaa' while prostrating

the Prophet said: “Ahead of you there is a time of patience when the one who adheres to Islam will have the reward of fifty martyrs among you.” Narrated by al-Tabaraani from Ibn Mas’ood and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’.

madame rouge

Thanks guys for the replies. @wes, do you know I was only thinking that if it was a nun's habit that I was putting on would it raise as many eyebrows?
@whydoc thanks for that ayah, it is so fitting.
@sefira, thanks for your kind words. I will have a look at the link. I'll have to do a bit of homework on how to wear a headscarf 'fashionably'

wes

madame rouge wrote: »

Thanks guys for the replies. @wes, do you know I was only thinking that if it was a nun's habit that I was putting on would it raise as many eyebrows?'

Well, I imagine if you randomly decided to start wearing a habit, people might be a bit confused, but joking aside, I don't think the Hijab should raise any issues, as long as you are not violating any king of pre-existing rule on dress codes.

Robert ninja

Hiding who we are from the people we're supposed to be teaching about life is not a good idea at all. If it gets the youth of our country aware of diversity of people and religion and for them to ask within themselves and discuss among each other these kind of issues even better! I just hope it doesn't come down on you at a personal level too much. That would feel awful I assume.

dlofnep

Wear it Nothing wrong with a Hijab. It's not a Burqa.

Freiheit

I don't see the problem,it's only a piece of cloth ( and I was briefly a (poor and ill adapted) secondary teacher). I'm sure once you go through official lines, principal, parents council etc and explain the situation it shouldn't be a problem. There's a lot of hijabi's out there now.

Like Sefirah I've always thought the hijab looks very graceful and spiritual and I like spirituality.

Good luck!:)

*** That Islam Q&A does seem a fairly conservative site though, to put it mildly, advocating full covering for a woman apart from one eye.

Sefirah

Freiheit wrote: »

*** That Islam Q&A does seem a fairly conservative site though, to put it mildly, advocating full covering for a woman apart from one eye.

Agreed! That one-eye thing is pretty creepy and rather pirate-y. And there ain't anything fun about the burka! I remember wearing one in 40 degree heat and nearly dying- extra kudos to the Saudi ladies who can bear it!

Freiheit

That's obviously a Saudi or Wahabbi site I assume?...Yes the pirate image did spring to mind!...

On topic though yeah the hijab can be beautiful.

delta_bravo

I don't know your situation OP but I presume you are teaching in a Catholic or Christian ethos school (simply because they are the dominant school in Ireland). The current equality act allows schools to legally discriminate if a person goes against the ethos of a school. You could find yourself in a sticky situation if it is a strict school and may face difficulties.

Edit here is the relevant bit of legislation. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0021/sec0037.html

philologos

As long as it isn't a full face veil or a burqa I wouldn't mind at all. As for the above ^^ that's extremely rarely used, and IMO should be gone. When I was in secondary school we had atheist & agnostic teachers in a few classes and openly so. The school was of a CofI ethos.

alex73

A head scarf is not going to offend anyone, What gets people nervous in Ireland is when you can't look a person in the face, Full face veil ...no way. Muslim Headscarf is no problem in Ireland.

Onesimus

You could be a mass murderer wondering around in a burqa and nobody would know any different. Good news for a bank robber if they permit the burqa is all I can say.

metrovelvet

Youd have to consider a number of things.

Is it a Catholic, Protestant, or multi denom school?

Is it in a rural or urban area and the constituency of the area you teach in?

Private or public school?

Does it enforce a dress code on staff and students?

dlofnep

Onesimus wrote: »

You could be a mass murderer wondering around in a burqa and nobody would know any different. Good news for a bank robber if they permit the burqa is all I can say.

What has that to do with anything?

madame rouge

Thanks for all the replies. I teach in a rural multidenominational school. However, as far as I know, I'm the only non-catholic in the school. There is no dress code for staff and a relaxed attitude to students' uniform as well.
When I put on hijab...insha Allah I'm planning to just wear a headscarf. I already dress very modestly with longer, looser clothes so the only real change I will make to my appearance will be the headscarf. I think I might suss it out as well with my colleague who's the union rep and find out if the union would support me if it came to anything with management.

caseyann

madame rouge wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. I teach in a rural multidenominational school. However, as far as I know, I'm the only non-catholic in the school. There is no dress code for staff and a relaxed attitude to students' uniform as well.
When I put on hijab...insha Allah I'm planning to just wear a headscarf. I already dress very modestly with longer, looser clothes so the only real change I will make to my appearance will be the headscarf. I think I might suss it out as well with my colleague who's the union rep and find out if the union would support me if it came to anything with management.

Well,i personally wouldnt have a problem with it if you were teaching me .I dont believe catholics have a problem with a head scarf in the majority.Irish catholics wore head scarfs also for a long time and nuns wear a habit teaching no different.
I believe you are scaring yourself into believing that people will have an issue with you wearing it or being against you being Muslim.
Best of luck let us know how you get on.:)

yammycat

You shouldn't wear it, you are being paid to teach not advertise any religion, the fact that you have to ask the question leads me to doubt whether the question is genuine as any real teacher would have a smidgen of common sense.

philologos

yammycat: It's a persons liberty to wear what they want. I don't see why you or anyone else have the right to say otherwise.

x0l0x

yammycat wrote: »

You shouldn't wear it, you are being paid to teach not advertise any religion, the fact that you have to ask the question leads me to doubt whether the question is genuine as any real teacher would have a smidgen of common sense.

everyone is free to wear what he want ... isn't freedom ?? ... As a democratic free country you should know that anyone is free to wear anything he want to wear and believe in anything he want to believe.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If it were my kids I'd have no problem with a hijab. Though I would have serious objections if a teacher covered their face

Zombrex

madame rouge wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice here. I'm a muslim convert and a secondary school teacher. At the moment I don't wear hijab but am seriously thinking about wearing it. Although I have never hidden the fact that I'm muslim it is not something that students or parents would be aware of. I'm worried about the backlash at school from students, parents and maybe even my colleagues. Would I even be allowed to wear it at school? What about those of you that are not muslim? What would you think if one of your kids teachers suddenly turned up in hijab?
I know that when I decide to wear hijab it will be for me and not to please or displease anybody else....still, it doesn't make it any easier!

While I think that you should technically have the right to wear it if you so wish I don't think it is a good idea (I'm non-Muslim by the way).

A teacher is an educator and as such should try as staying as neural in all matters as much as they can unless engaging in a topic of their own beliefs (ie I don't expect a teacher to lie if asked What religion are you Miss?)

I'm an atheist, I believe God is imaginary and I believe religion is irrational. But if I was a teacher I wouldn't turn up with a T-shirt saying "I am an atheist", even if I technically would have the right to do so.

Not because that isn't a reflection of my beliefs, but because such a T-shirt would be distracting in my role as a teacher.

You have survived this long without wearing a veil, and it is debatable if Muslim women have to at all. There seems to be little harm in not wearing a veil, and you avoid any issue with your students being confused as to what statement you are or aren't making by suddenly turning up in one.

digme

I thought we were trying to get rid of religion in schools?
Why bring the attention to yourself?

benagain

move to a muslim country, everyones a winner end of.

Le_Dieux

philologos wrote: »

yammycat: It's a persons liberty to wear what they want. I don't see why you or anyone else have the right to say otherwise.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with whats written above. If this was written in Saudi Arabia, would a woman be allowed to go uncovered?

NO WAY!

philologos

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with whats written above. If this was written in Saudi Arabia, would a woman be allowed to go uncovered?

NO WAY!

I'm Irish. I feel I should have a say in the customs, and means of toleration of people in this country. I wholeheartedly reject such measures (which are claimed as 'secularism' but actually have nothing to do with the word as far as I see it) which would violate peoples right to freedom of expression and belief. Which combined mean the free expression of belief. Common liberties given by most Western societies.

benagain

metrovelvet wrote: »

Youd have to consider a number of things.

Is it a Catholic, Protestant, or multi denom school?

Is it in a rural or urban area and the constituency of the area you teach in?

Private or public school?

Does it enforce a dress code on staff and students?

if you live in yemen dont answer the above and dont , shout show us your face in a strip club jezzzzzzz

Le_Dieux

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with whats written above. If this was written in Saudi Arabia, would a woman be allowed to go uncovered?

NO WAY!

So you think we should emulate SA?

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

While I think that you should technically have the right to wear it if you so wish I don't think it is a good idea (I'm non-Muslim by the way).

A teacher is an educator and as such should try as staying as neural in all matters as much as they can unless engaging in a topic of their own beliefs (ie I don't expect a teacher to lie if asked What religion are you Miss?)

I'm an atheist, I believe God is imaginary and I believe religion is irrational. But if I was a teacher I wouldn't turn up with a T-shirt saying "I am an atheist", even if I technically would have the right to do so.

Not because that isn't a reflection of my beliefs, but because such a T-shirt would be distracting in my role as a teacher.

You have survived this long without wearing a veil, and it is debatable if Muslim women have to at all. There seems to be little harm in not wearing a veil, and you avoid any issue with your students being confused as to what statement you are or aren't making by suddenly turning up in one.

While i agree with you to a certain point,i dont to another.Loads of nuns are teachers and wear habits so whats wrong with a scarf on the head.It is also tidy and keeps the hair back:D

Zombrex

I wouldn't recommend the teacher turn up dressed as a nun either

Manic Moran

My understanding is that the Teacher-Nuns (are they kindof equivalent to Warrior-Monks?) tend to only show up in religious schools where it's made blatantly obvious when you're sending your child there that it's run by a religious order and chances are that normal religion-neutrality concepts don't apply. The analogy doesn't apply.

It is naive to think that there would be no negative response to wearing a religious headscarf on the job. Now, whilst, of course, the initial and correct theoretical answer is 'well, that's their problem, not yours', the practical answer is, yes, it is your problem because the way others react will affect you, both emotionally and possibly professionally and, right or wrong, you must be prepared to deal with it. The 80% (or whatever) of parents, students and staff who have no issues will be totally invisible to you, but of the remaining 20%, some you will certainly notice even if they're trying not to be obvious about it. If you are thin-skinned, be warned. It may not even be the religious thing: I personally simply consider wearing headgear indoors to be fairly poor etiquette (barring practical reasons such as safety or uniforms) and have to make a conscious effort to not take off my campaign hat when indoors.

If it is that important to you to start wearing the headgear and you are prepared to deal with a potential negative response, might I make some suggestions?

-) Don't suddenly show up one day in the middle of the school year wearing it. September isn't that far away, and it allows you to meet your next batch of students and parents with a clean slate.
-) Consider not wearing it 'on duty', but only after hours or at social events. Review your position in a year or so. Effectively, you're breaking people in slowly.

Of course, if you're thick-skinned and really want to wear the scarf, go all-in tomorrow. They'll come around eventually anyway, it's just a matter of how much hassle you're prepared to deal with.

NTM

yammycat

philologos wrote: »

yammycat: It's a persons liberty to wear what they want. I don't see why you or anyone else have the right to say otherwise.

You can wear what you want on your own time, not on your employers time.

philologos

yammycat wrote: »

You can wear what you want on your own time, not on your employers time.

Some people are just going to have to realise that people of faith exist in society. They aren't going away any time soon.

Le_Dieux

Aah, but philologas, You seem to forget this is not a muslim country.

For me, anyone can practice whatever creed they aspire to. BUT, this country is of western persuasion ( I hope), and I have no problem having mosques here, or temples or any other religious structures, but for me, if a woman here is in a public position, then I think she should abide by the norms of that culture. And for me, a teacher should not be wearing a scarf. Of course if she is teaching in a muslim school, then it's a different story, but she says she is in a 'rural multidemoninational' school, and should therefore abide by their accepted rules.

For me, she can go teach in a muslim school (if she wants to wear something displaying her creed publicly), or of course she can go to a muslim country and then do as she pleases...or as she is permitted to.

She doesn't state how long she is converted ( and I wish her luck and happiness in her chosen creed) but I just wonder why is it such an issue for her to wear a scarf?

Scarf for now, what's next? the veil/beads/whatever?

philologos

Le Dieux - It's a pluralism of many people of differing beliefs. I encourage toleration, and this is a Western value as is religious freedom. Faith is inherently public. I'm a Christian, I'm not privately a Christian, I am a Christian in public and in every respect of my life.

Le_Dieux

Fair enough Philologos

But, she says she is the only non Catholic in the school - I have no way of knowing if she is only referring to the teachers, or teachers and pupils. I really think she should think carefully about this. For me, she is totally wrong in wanting to show her 'colours' by wearing the scarf. Like I said before, today the scarf, whats tomorrow?

Also, let me put this another way: what if another teacher there decided she/he wanted to change beliefs from a Christian to an aethiest & wear a tshirt or hat staing 'i hate God' or something to that effect. How will that go down?

No, she was employed as a teacher without displaying her creed, how long she is stationed there is only she knows, but to make the radical change now and start wearing this scarf is not on IMO.

philologos

Le_Dieux wrote: »

But, she says she is the only non Catholic inthe school - I have no way of knowing if she is only referring to the teachers, or teachers and pupils. I really think she should think carefully about this. For me, she is totally wrong in wanting to show her 'colours' by wearing the scarf. Like I said before, today the scarf, whats tomorrow?

I don't see why we shouldn't tolerate hijab if it doesn't interfere with teaching. Slippery slope argument is pretty weak. She wants to wear hijab because Islam requires her to. That's fair enough. I disagree with the Islamic faith, but I recognise peoples right to practice it.

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Also, let me put this another way: what if another teacher there decided she/he wanted to change beliefs from a Christian to an aethiest & wear a tshirt or hat staing 'i hate God' or something to that effect. How will that go down?

Now that I've thought about it, I think that would be OK but it is far more abrasive than the hijab. The hijab isn't suggesting that they hate other people's beliefs.

Le_Dieux wrote: »

No, she was employed as a teacher without displaying her creed, how long she is stationed there is only she knows, but to make the radical change now and start wearing this scarf is not on IMO.

I don't see how it isn't on.

hivizman

A recently published book by Leila Ahmed, an Egyptian-American academic, is A Quiet Revolution: The Veil's Resurgence from the Middle East to America (Yale University Press: 2011). Here's a description of the book:

In Cairo in the 1940s, Leila Ahmed was raised by a generation of women who never dressed in the veils and headscarves their mothers and grandmothers had worn. To them, these coverings seemed irrelevant to both modern life and Islamic piety. Today, however, the majority of Muslim women throughout the Islamic world again wear the veil. Why, Ahmed asks, did this change take root so swiftly, and what does this shift mean for women, Islam, and the West? When she began her study, Ahmed assumed that the veil's return indicated a backward step for Muslim women worldwide. What she discovered, however, in the stories of British colonial officials, young Muslim feminists, Arab nationalists, pious Islamic daughters, American Muslim immigrants, violent jihadists, and peaceful Islamic activists, confounded her expectations. Ahmed observed that Islamism, with its commitments to activism in the service of the poor and in pursuit of social justice, is the strain of Islam most easily and naturally merging with western democracies' own tradition of activism in the cause of justice and social change. It is often Islamists, even more than secular Muslims, who are at the forefront of such contemporary activist struggles as civil rights and women's rights. Ahmed's surprising conclusions represent a near reversal of her thinking on this topic. Richly insightful, intricately drawn, and passionately argued, this absorbing story of the veil's resurgence, from Egypt through Saudi Arabia and into the West, suggests a dramatically new portrait of contemporary Islam.

Those of you who are following the veiling debate may want to look at this contribution to the discussion, which promises to be an interesting read.

I'm acquainted with a few female Muslim lawyers, accountants and university teachers who cover their hair and dress modestly, and they do this without compromising their personal appearance as professionals. If the OP maintains a professional manner, then I see no substantive objection to her covering her hair.

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

Some people are just going to have to realise that people of faith exist in society. They aren't going away any time soon.

People have always managed to find a balance between person and professional context in other areas of life, such as politics philosophy culture etc. The idea that they can't with religion is some what weak.

If a teacher turned up to class each morning wearing a t-shirt expressing a particular political statement, or particular cultural statement, it would not seem odd or unreasonable at all to raise an eyebrow and wonder is that the best thing the teacher could be doing?

That doesn't mean she shouldn't have the right to do it, but equally just because someone has the right to do something doesn't make it automatically a good idea.

For example a person has the right to wear a T-shirt that says "British out of Northern Ireland" if she wants to. That doesn't mean I would recommend that a teacher should wear it into class each day.

Nor does saying that she probably shouldn't mean she has no right to hold views on the relationship with Northern Ireland.

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

People have always managed to find a balance between person and professional context in other areas of life, such as politics philosophy culture etc. The idea that they can't with religion is some what weak.

That's why we as a society need to talk about these type of things together and come to a reasonable compromise. We need to establish a balance together through discourse rather than people telling other people how they should live their lives without any form of consultation.

That's what I believe that it should be about.

Wicknight wrote: »

If a teacher turned up to class each morning wearing a t-shirt expressing a particular political statement, or particular cultural statement, it would not seem odd or unreasonable at all to raise an eyebrow and wonder is that the best thing the teacher could be doing?

I couldn't care to be honest.

Wicknight wrote: »

That doesn't mean she shouldn't have the right to do it, but equally just because someone has the right to do something doesn't make it automatically a good idea.

For example a person has the right to wear a T-shirt that says "British out of Northern Ireland" if she wants to. That doesn't mean I would recommend that a teacher should wear it into class each day.

I don't see how wearing the hijab is comparable to such a statement to be honest with you.

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

That's why we as a society need to talk about these type of things together and come to a reasonable compromise.

We are talking about it. Is it not a reasonable compromise that she doesn't wear the hijab while teaching?

philologos wrote: »

We need to establish a balance together through discourse rather than people telling other people how they should live their lives without any form of consultation.

The OP asked for opinions on this subject, including from non-Muslims.

Lots of debate and discussion so long as we all give the "correct" answer?

philologos wrote: »

I don't see how wearing the hijab is comparable to such a statement to be honest with you.

That isn't really the point. The hijab is a statement, about religion, about a woman's place in society. It is as much a statement as any other political or cultural statement.

You don't think teachers as a general rule should restrain from making overt political, cultural or religious statements while teaching?

Remember a teacher is not simply being themselves while teaching. When a teacher gets up in front of a class to teach about history or politics or philosophy or religion they are not simply being asked to say what they think about these subjects. Their personal notions on these subjects, while admissible in certain circumstances and contexts, is largely irrelevant. The teacher is supposed to a neutral party educating the students.

Or to put it more bluntly, it isn't about the teacher, it is about the students.

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

We are talking about it. Is it not a reasonable compromise that she doesn't wear the hijab while teaching?

I don't think so because her faith requires that she wears it. At least on a Qur'anic level. The reasonable compromise seems to be to allow her liberties in so far as it doesn't stop her from doing her job to a satisfactory standard. There is no evidence that it will, and indeed there is no evidence that wearing a hijab makes you a bad teacher. Therefore we should ensure liberties in so far as it is practicable.

Wicknight wrote: »

The OP asked for opinions on this subject, including from non-Muslims.

Lots of debate and discussion so long as we all give the "correct" answer?

Obviously otherwise I wouldn't be posting. I just reject insinuations from non-believers that people of faith should of necessity conform to their expectations.

As far as I see it I'm interested in defending the freedom of expression and of belief where it is reasonable and practicable to do so.

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't really the point. The hijab is a statement, about religion, about a woman's place in society. It is as much a statement as any other political or cultural statement.

As far as I'm concerned she has the right to wear what she wants in so far as it doesn't hinder her work.

Wicknight wrote: »

You don't think teachers as a general rule should restrain from making overt political, cultural or religious statements while teaching?

I don't believe the hijab makes any profound statement. Anyone could wear that item of clothing if they wanted to. By the by, when I was in school a few teachers openly said in the classroom that they were non-believers. Personally I didn't run out screeching that they crossed any lines :pac:. In religion class I think it's also appropriate for teachers to make clear where they are coming from briefly before they study things, and also to make clear where others come from.

Wicknight wrote: »

Remember a teacher is not simply being themselves while teaching. When a teacher gets up in front of a class to teach about history or politics or philosophy or religion they are not simply being asked to say what they think about these subjects. Their personal notions on these subjects, while admissible in certain circumstances and contexts, is largely irrelevant. The teacher is supposed to a neutral party educating the students.

I don't think teachers should deny themselves either.

Wicknight wrote: »

Or to put it more bluntly, it isn't about the teacher, it is about the students.

You still have to argue as to how the hijab is in any way inappropriate. Would you also ban other cultural clothing that doesn't fall into the Western idea of dress?

yammycat

hivizman wrote: »

If the OP maintains a professional manner, then I see no substantive objection to her covering her hair.

Covering yourself up because a magic man in the sky disapproves, indeed thats very professional, I'm sure most employers will be searching far and wide for similarly minded individuals.

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

I don't think so because her faith requires that she wears it.

Lots of Muslim women do not wear the hijab. It is an interpretation of Islam, not a hard rule. She already said she doesn't wear it, and is only thinking of wearing it.

philologos wrote: »

There is no evidence that it will, and indeed there is no evidence that wearing a hijab makes you a bad teacher. Therefore we should ensure liberties in so far as it is practicable.

I've already explained why a teacher making such an overt statement could be distracting for her students taking the focus off what she is trying to teach.

philologos wrote: »

Obviously otherwise I wouldn't be posting. I just reject insinuations from non-believers that people of faith should of necessity conform to their expectations.

How is that compromise?

What would you consider to be out of line for this woman to do, out of interest?

philologos wrote: »

As far as I see it I'm interested in defending the freedom of expression and of belief where it is reasonable and practicable to do so.

No one is stopping this woman's freedom of expression. That is the compromise. She can do what ever the heck she likes as a private citizen, but when acting as a teacher her responsibilities extend beyond just herself.

This goes for all walks of life. You seem to have little issue with that idea when it comes to thinks like sex education. I can't help but feel you are all for "freedom of expression" so long as the person is only expressing an opinion in line with yours.

philologos wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned she has the right to wear what she wants in so far as it doesn't hinder her work.

How would you define "hinder her work"

philologos wrote: »

I don't believe the hijab makes any profound statement.

Then why is she wearing it?

The hijab is an outward statement of the persons religious beliefs as a Muslim. That is why women choose to wear it, to make such a statement.

philologos wrote: »

Anyone could wear that item of clothing if they wanted to. By the by, when I was in school a few teachers openly said in the classroom that they were non-believers. Personally I didn't run out screeching that they crossed any lines :pac:.

Good for you. I imagine though there are lots of things they could have done that would have, such as telling you that pre-marital sex is just fine and handing out condoms to you all.

We both know that you believe their are things that a distracting to students when teachers do them, things that you feel influence students as teachers are seen as authority figures.

It is all very well to talk about freedom of expression but that isn't a reason to do something, simply a reason not to stop someone from doing it.

philologos wrote: »

I don't think teachers should deny themselves either.

No one is asking her to deny anything.

philologos wrote: »

You still have to argue as to how the hijab is in any way inappropriate. Would you also ban other cultural clothing that doesn't fall into the Western idea of dress?

Depends on what they are and what statement they made. If they were distracting to the class, yes.

And by the way I'm not suggesting anyone ban anything. The OP asked was it a good idea to wear the hijab. If the best you can come up with is she has a right to and no one can stop her, well that is some what missing the wood for the trees since just because you have the right to do something is not a reason in of itself to do it.

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

Lots of Muslim women do not wear the hijab. It is an interpretation of Islam, not a hard rule. She already said she doesn't wear it, and is only thinking of wearing it.

From what I've read of the Qur'an it seems pretty clear Qur'anically. (Surah 24:30-31). Perhaps I am wrong and some of the Muslim posters will put me in the right direction.

Wicknight wrote: »

I've already explained why a teacher making such an overt statement could be distracting for her students taking the focus off what she is trying to teach.

And I've disagreed that one could be distracted by the fact that someone is Muslim. That's just simply who they are. People get on with life. One of the chaplains in our secondary school was the R.E teacher and wore black shirt / white collar. Nobody was "distracted" by that fact.

Wicknight wrote: »

How is that compromise?

Compromise only works where it is reasonable. It is not reasonable in this case because there is no problem with wearing it.

Wicknight wrote: »

What would you consider to be out of line for this woman to do, out of interest?

I'm not going to list everything that this woman shouldn't do because I would be here all night and I have things to do :pac:

Wicknight wrote: »

No one is stopping this woman's freedom of expression. That is the compromise. She can do what ever the heck she likes as a private citizen, but when acting as a teacher her responsibilities extend beyond just herself.

Wearing the hijab is IMO a legitimate expression of faith as is wearing a Star of David, a crucifix or a turban. A friend of mine in school wore a turban, should the school have asked him to take it off because it would "distract" other students?

Wicknight wrote: »

This goes for all walks of life. You seem to have little issue with that idea when it comes to thinks like sex education. I can't help but feel you are all for "freedom of expression" so long as the person is only expressing an opinion in line with yours.

What nonsense! I'm supportive of sex ed classes.

Wicknight wrote: »

How would you define "hinder her work"

Stop her from being able to teach.

Wicknight wrote: »

Then why is she wearing it?

Personal obedience to her concept of God I assume.

Wicknight wrote: »

Good for you. I imagine though there are lots of things they could have done that would have, such as telling you that pre-marital sex is just fine and handing out condoms to you all.

TBH with you that's pretty much what already happens in many cases.

Wicknight wrote: »

We both know that you believe their are things that a distracting to students when teachers do them, things that you feel influence students as teachers are seen as authority figures.

It is all very well to talk about freedom of expression but that isn't a reason to do something, simply a reason not to stop someone from doing it.

I feel you are just drawing up a convenient caricature now.

Wicknight wrote: »

No one is asking her to deny anything.

Obedience to her concept of God. That's what you are asking her to deny. Millions of teachers around the world presumably wear the hijab without issue.

Wicknight wrote: »

And by the way I'm not suggesting anyone ban anything. The OP asked was it a good idea to wear the hijab. If the best you can come up with is she has a right to and no one can stop her, well that is some what missing the wood for the trees since just because you have the right to do something is not a reason in of itself to do it.

I doubt the OP is going to adopt the assumptions that underly your position though. That's what I'm saying. The perceived difficulties you are raising are things which have been overcome in other Western countries decades ago.

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

What nonsense! I'm supportive of sex ed classes.

Perhaps I'm remembering wrong but I was under the impression you were very opposed to condoms present a debs night under the idea that it was the staff telling the students that it was ok to go off and have sex that night, and that this view should not be pushed on the kids. You wanted the condoms hidden so no one was influenced by their presence.

If that wasn't you I apologize, I'm remembering wrong.

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

Perhaps I'm remembering wrong but I was under the impression you were very opposed to condoms present a debs night under the idea that it was the staff telling the students that it was ok to go off and have sex that night, and that this view should not be pushed on the kids. You wanted the condoms hidden so no one was influenced by their presence.

If that wasn't you I apologize, I'm remembering wrong.

That isn't sex education. That's just doing what is utterly inappropriate at a social event / dinner table

This is well off topic though. The teacher isn't bringing in hijab for everyone in the audience :pac:

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

That isn't sex education. That's just doing what is utterly inappropriate at a social event / dinner table

This is well off topic though. The teacher isn't bringing in hijab for everyone in the audience :pac:

No, but my point was we both agree that teachers and their actions have influence over their students. You consider it inappropriate based on your own beliefs about proper sexual interaction. You would believe this I'm sure without calling for such an action to be considered illegal, merely not a good idea.

philologos

I don't consider it inappropriate to teach about sex-ed in a full manner, as I was done in school. Mentioning abstinence and contraceptive methods in full. T'is royally off the topic of hijab though.

How we're all meant to be offended at the message behind the hijab is beyond me. If you disagree with it don't wear / encourage people to wear one. It's that simple.