Adults facing minors in Martial Arts comps

Clive

This topic came up in another thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056254175&page=2

but to move it away from that specific competition and into the general case, what do you think about minors being allowed to enter adult divisions in martial arts competitions (obviously contact competitions rather than forms etc)?

Personally I competed against adults from about 15 or 16, depending on the competition, and I know that there are a number of people who are 16 or 17 on the BJJ/submission wrestling circuit. It's not a question of whether minors can compete against adults since they clearly can do so (and successfully), indeed it's a great learning experience for them.

However, in my opinion, any tournament organiser who allows this is crazy. 99.9% of the time there will be no problem, but in the event of a serious injury you're leaving yourself completely open to legal action regardless of any waiver you get the parents to sign.

HammerHeadGym

I've always been of the opinion that if you're big enough, you're old enough. 50,000 professional fighters in Thailand compete based solely on weight divisions, age is never an issue.
I mean, what's the difference between a 17 year and 3/4 year old an an 18 year old?

Clive wrote: »

...regardless of any waiver you get the parents to sign.

Obviously we'll need someone witha legal background to clarify this but surely a waiver that states injury is a genuine possibiity, indemnifies you from legal action in the case of said injury. Otherwise, what is the waiver for?

Clive

The advice I have is that waivers can be useful in the event of legal action, but they're not as bulletproof as people think. If 16 year old Johnny gets his neck broken against a grown man, mommy and daddy will be straight before the judge saying that the risks weren't fully explained to them.

Whatever about football etc, but in Martial Arts where the competition is by nature combative, it's a case waiting to happen.

Granted 18 is an arbitrary figure, but under that is legally a minor - that's where the line has been drawn.

Doug Cartel

The idea of the younger divisions is to give people who mightn't be up for the senior division a chance of having a fair competition. A bit of discretion is needed. Some of the better youn'uns are probably going to have to be encouraged to enter adults section so they don't steam-roll the other kids, and some of the ones who's ambition is greater than their actual ability are going to have to be told they can't enter the the senior division.

As to why you need the separation if you already have weight and experience divisions, well that's all well and good when the competitors have some training and competition experience to speak of. What happens when both competitors are beginners, but one is a pudgy 15 year old and the other is a lean 22 year old who got into BJJ after taking part in all sorts of activities that involve getting knocked about?

Sid_Justice

again, not a legal person, but the waivers aren't worth the paper they are written on. but if the parent has read them and signed them they've given consent so less likely to go busting your door down. if a parent is that concerned one would hope they would not sign it and not allow the child to participate. waivers can never account for negligence.

whadabouchasir

I know in boxing 17 year olds are considered adults and are even allowed to compete in the olympics and can end up doing very well,Amir Khan being an example.I know that Pacquiao turned pro before he was 18 as well.You can compete as a senior in TKD at 17 too.I feel that if the coach thinks that they are up for it then absolutely 16/17 year olds should be allowed to compete as seniors.

yomchi

Clive wrote: »

The advice I have is that waivers can be useful in the event of legal action, but they're not as bulletproof as people think. If 16 year old Johnny gets his neck broken against a grown man, mommy and daddy will be straight before the judge saying that the risks weren't fully explained to them.

Whatever about football etc, but in Martial Arts where the competition is by nature combative, it's a case waiting to happen.

Granted 18 is an arbitrary figure, but under that is legally a minor - that's where the line has been drawn.

100% correct Clive, nothing that a student signs mean diddly when it comes to the legality of it. You can't get someone to sign their legal rights away. The signature may act as a deterent to take legal action, but these days people are more clued in. Minor's facing adults is a massive mine field, it only takes one mine to do the damage.

cowzerp

If someone chooses to do Martial arts and gets hurt then thats just part of the choice they made, unless there was some negligence involved such as a dangerous fighting enviroment like a damaged sharp cage or something, As far as teens v adults it would definetly be harder to justify in court is it negligence or not adults v minors..

But there is no precedents set that i know of so i think it would end up been ok, either way Morally i would believe that 17 plus are ok to fight and 16 under stick to under 17's...

yomchi

The law around that has changed some what over the years, right now a person can sue another person in the class if that person has for example, broken their jaw or causes some similar injury. So if I go to a boxing club and have my eye socket cracked, I can sue directly the person who through the punch, who can then counter sue your club for not having person to person cover. God bless America

paulmclaughlin

yomchi wrote: »

God bless America

this is Ireland and also an Irish forum...

Niall Keane

In Sanshou you must be 18 or 16-18 with parental consent.
Personally I'm uneasy with minors fighting full contact, most kids that age simply don't have the life experience to have grasped the concept of strategy, put them against a seasoned fighter with plenty of ring craft and it ends up being a baptisim of fire! This can certainly make them! That is teach them and inspire them if they have the heart to continue? I don't mean to be patronising here, I just don't think the average teenager has had a great deal of experience with veiled deception! Hence their idealism in alot of areas. Sure pure raw power and stamina can possibly over come this, I'm thinking Tyson, but that guy started training at 4am everyday, for the average amateur full contact fighter? Well I'm not so sure they have that hunger?
IMO a teenage division is better, CMA has Ching Da also which is heavy contact but ko s are penalised, so it becomes more about skill than crushing someones cheek bones. Can be a useful stepping stone.
My Sifu who runs the British Open every year since 1989 carefully matched those with less experience and who were young, so they got the experience they wanted but relatively safely, his caution came from reffing a match in Hong Kong where a fighter was killed. That haunts him to this day!

yomchi

paulmclaughlin wrote: »

this is Ireland and also an Irish forum...

wooooosh

:rolleyes:

Bres

There is an adults and teen division not just for reasons fairness to all competing i.e. there's no wining for an adult fighting a teen, if he wins 'so what he was only a teenager' and if he loses it can be quite dis-heartening, also he's to put up with his mates takin the mick, unfortunatly not everyones humble in defeat...
even if this isn't the case it dosen't mater what waiver is signed, it's not just down to injury you also have to protect minors from the gary glitters of the sporting world, child protection plays a big part of the age categories...