Requesting part 4 tenancy, landlord refuses

ikoonman

Hi

We've been renting a property for 2 years (end of 2nd year lease up for renewal next month) and my wife and I decided we'd like to give the landlord notice of claiming part 4 tenancy - in order to go month to month and not sign a year commitment. We've informed the agent 30 days before the lease expires (as per http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html) but he replied to my email informing us that the landlord needs a 1 year commitment and does not accept this notice.

We've been taking good care of the property, paid our rent on-time and even though we've ensured the landlord that we have no plans on moving out we're just concerned that the economical circumstances may force us to look for cheaper accommodation down the line.

Now that we've given our notice for the part 4 can we just stick to our guns, claiming our rights under the Residential Tenancies Act of 2004, and say we have no intention of signing a year lease? We're concerned that the landlord may get "difficult" if we choose this path.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

silja

As far as I know, you cannot demand a part 4 tenancy if there is a fixed term in place. If you were just continuing to live in the home past the fixed term and no renewal is signed, it automatically becomes a part 4, but the landlord is under no obligation to allow it- he can kick you out at the end of the fixed term if you refuse to sign a new lease. Maybe see if you can agree to a compromise, such as sign another year's lease but with a 6 months break clause?

Knasher

IANAL, but as far as I know (and I'm almost certain on this), after 6 months in accommodation and regardless of any lease for have signed you qualify for automatically for part 4 tenure in four year cycles. As such there is no legal basis for you to be denied it. Even if you don't notify your landlord of your intention of staying on, you would still be entitled although you would also be liable for any costs to the landlord.

Additionally, even if your lease states that you have to sign a new lease on the expiration of the old one, this is an unenforceable clause as a lease can't suspend any rights outlined under the part 4. If the landlord tries to effect you for any reason other than those outlined, they would be liable for illegal eviction.

So if I were you I would stick to my guns, and to be honest I'd probably try and get into contact with the landlord as there is a good chance they mightn't even be aware of what the leasing agency is doing on their behalf. That being said, there is always a chance that the landlord is demanding the lease and that they may be difficult if you deny it to them even though they aren't entitled to it. If it comes to that all you can really do is give your notice.

ikoonman

Thanks for your response!

silja wrote: »

As far as I know, you cannot demand a part 4 tenancy if there is a fixed term in place.

I understand this - this is the reason why we are giving notice before the end of fixed term (2nd year) comes to an end, which is next month. Technically we must provide between 3 and 1 month's notice of our intention before we recommit, which is what we've done. Or am I missing something?

silja wrote: »

but the landlord is under no obligation to allow it- he can kick you out at the end of the fixed term if you refuse to sign a new lease.

He can only evict if he gives ~ 2 months notice, and even at that he needs to provide a solid reason, seeing as we are currently in our 4 year tenancy cycle. From what I understand, he could only really do this if

• We don't pay rent on time
• He intends on selling the property
• He intends on converting the property to business status
• He wants to completely refurbish the property
• We are in breach of the agreement
• We participate in anti-social behaviour and annoy the neighbours

I understand that as a tenant I have now rights as provided for by the Tenancies Act since we are more than 6 months on the property.

silja wrote: »

Maybe see if you can agree to a compromise, such as sign another year's lease but with a 6 months break clause?

This is certainly something we can consider. Would it mean that we have an option to terminate after 6 months?

Knasher

Actually, from the website you linked:

However a lease cannot contain terms that contradict the legal rights of tenants and landlords. If this happens, your legal rights as a landlord or tenant supersede the terms in the lease.

Under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, if you have been renting for at least 6 months and haven't been given a written notice of termination, you automatically acquire security of tenure in 4-year cycles. Any tenancy, therefore, that has lasted more than 6 months is a 'Part 4 tenancy' or a 'further Part 4 tenancy'. After 4 years of your tenancy has passed, a new tenancy starts. The same 4-year cycle can begin again, leading to a further Part 4 tenancy.

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

And just in case:

If you rent a room in your landlord's home and live with your landlord, you are not covered by the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.

ikoonman

Knasher wrote: »

IANAL, but as far as I know (and I'm almost certain on this), after 6 months in accommodation and regardless of any lease for have signed you qualify for automatically for part 4 tenure in four year cycles. As such there is no legal basis for you to be denied it. Even if you don't notify your landlord of your intention of staying on, you would still be entitled although you would also be liable for any costs to the landlord.

This is my understanding as well. We are trying to be civil about it and notified the agent (I also copied the landlord into the email) of our intention to remain on the property. We're certainly not trying to damage our relationship with the landlord/agent but we do want to stand on our rights.

Knasher wrote: »

That being said, there is always a chance that the landlord is demanding the lease and that they may be difficult if you deny it to them even though they aren't entitled to it. If it comes to that all you can really do is give your notice.

It sounds like he is pushing for the 1 year contract. Let's hope he can see our reason

ikoonman

@OMD, I am unsure how continuing to pay monthly rent and maintaining the property is viewed as squatting.

Either way, as Knasher pointed out, as a tenant I have certain rights. I did mention my reason for not signing the fixed term contract in my first post.

OMD

ikoonman wrote: »

@OMD, I am unsure how continuing to pay monthly rent and maintaining the property is viewed as squatting.

Either way, as Knasher pointed out, as a tenant I have certain rights. I did mention my reason for not signing the fixed term contract in my first post.

My squatting remark was OTT which is why I had deleted it before you responded.

But if he wants, on a Part 4 tenancy all the landlord has to do is say he is selling property or moving his family in and you have to move out after the required notice. Also he can increase rent now if he wants to. Unless he increases it by a huge amount it is hard to argue it is not Market rate.

pooch90

OMD wrote: »

My squatting remark was OTT which is why I had deleted it before you responded.

But if he wants, on a Part 4 tenancy all the landlord has to do is say he is selling property or moving his family in and you have to move out after the required notice. Also he can increase rent now if he wants to. Unless he increases it by a huge amount it is hard to argue it is not Market rate.

We were in basically this exact position last year except the LL was a rat bag.
didn't know what Part 4 was, didn't even realise there were laws regarding tenancy :eek:

They went nuts when we said we didn't want to sign new lease (which they had changed from the previous lease without our consent)
They eventually said ok about the Part 4. Then a month later, claimed they were selling the house. We moved out and they put their sister in there.

Lots of other nasty tricks pulled by them, they made our life hell.

ikoonman

OMD wrote: »

But if he wants, on a Part 4 tenancy all the landlord has to do is say he is selling property or moving his family in and you have to move out after the required notice.

True - but I know he is living abroad with no intention of returning to Ireland, and if his plans were to sell the property he'd probably have no problem agreeing to month-to-month, right? The agent did indicate that the LL requests a year contract which means he has no intention on doing either

OMD wrote: »

Also he can increase rent now if he wants to. Unless he increases it by a huge amount it is hard to argue it is not Market rate.

Well if he does that, then we'll probably move out in any case-but he knows how we are taking care of his property as he viewed it recently, the previous tenants neglected the property severely to the state where it was vacant for months. If he wants to take that risk again then I suppose that's his prerogative. It's a renter's market out there so I have a number of options - if it comes to this.

ikoonman

pooch90 wrote: »

They eventually said ok about the Part 4. Then a month later, claimed they were selling the house. We moved out and they put their sister in there.

But he had to give you your 2 months notice, right? Legally he is obliged to so if I am not mistaken.

pooch90 wrote: »

Lots of other nasty tricks pulled by them, they made our life hell.

Sorry to hear that

pooch90

ikoonman wrote: »

But he had to give you your 2 months notice, right? Legally he is obliged to so if I am not mistaken.

We withheld rent on the basis that we needed a deposit on hand for alternative accommodation so we got notice for non payment of rent and they kept deposit.
Also permeated with unannounced visits/EA valuations/viewings (EA is personal friend of LL so was doing all this as a favour to them) and threats.

shoegirl

I can sympathise, I had this problem with my last landlord.

In practice many landlords ignore PRTB and see it as an optional extra, my own made me pay the registration fee because I needed to be registered to get parking permits. At the time there was nothing I could do but fork out as the time taken for disputes with PTRB are 3 or 4 months, and I needed a permit straight away or risk clamping and fines which would be much more expensive. So I had no real choice but to capitulate.

Likewise with same ll locking me into 1 year leases, I eventually refused and said I'd sign only 6 months which worked, but again I couldn't really take up a case with PRTB as again it would take months and well, you don't want your landlord to retaliate.

The only advise I can offer is while it is your legal right establishing this could be difficult without paying for a solicitor or taking a PRTB case which will take ages. Either move on and make sure that the new landlord understand their obligations under the law and isn't going to exploit your lack of spare income to spend on legal costs or the huge delays with PRTB cases.

It goes without saying that you cannot sign away your rights but most landlords will still try. Either open a case with PRTB or leave, really there isn't a lot you can do immediately if your landlord thinks the law doesn't apply to him.