PV solar panels - grant?

Qualitymark

Is there any government or EU aid available if you instal photovoltaic solar panels to add to your home's power and feed into the National Grid?

How much does it typically cost to instal these, and how much can they save you?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Can I suggest you contact SEAI for those details?

Qualitymark

I have done, just now, as it happens. It doesn't appear that there is any grant to produce electricity through PV panels in Ireland, from what I can see on the SEAI website.

A friend in the US got such a system installed (the state she lives in, one of the bankrupt ones, paid around two-thirds of the cost) and now has no electricity bill whatsoever, and feeds electricity back into the grid.

dowtcha

The only incentive on offer is a rate of 9cent/kWhr for surplus electricity exported onto the grid via a microgen export meter from Electric Ireland. This is not likely to amount to a very small annual sum. The main source of revenue would be from a reduced electricity bill. Given the average annual domestic usage is 5-6000 kWhr, you can see the money earned by reducing electricity bills will also be small on an annual basis. In short the financial case for installing PV in Ireland is not good - it ties in with the fact that PV panel installations are rarley seen in Ireland. The only example I can think of is on roadside signage powered by small PV panels

Qualitymark

I think I'll be leaving this idea aside; my friend in the US got a grant that meant she bought and had installed 14 panels for $16,000 which would have cost $29,000 without the grant.

Until there's good national subvention of photovoltaic elecitry generation I'll regretfully be consuming the precious fossil fuel resources of our world and polluting with nuclear waste at second hand. Not being a millionaire (yet), I have little choice in this.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Qualitymark wrote: »

Until there's good national subvention of photovoltaic elecitry generation I'll regretfully be consuming the precious fossil fuel resources of our world and polluting with nuclear waste at second hand. Not being a millionaire (yet), I have little choice in this.

These panels are not efficient and are not going to pay for themselves in Ireland. Why therefore should you get a grant to install a system that will not be economically viable? There are other options with regard to wind and hydro that you can employ if you wish.
To subvent one individual to such a value as to make solar panels viable would be such a cost as to be unrealistic nationally. Unless of course you should get such a grant but not all your neighbours. It just doesn't pay - be it you that coughs up the cost or the government (and therefore me et al).

Qualitymark

Payton Spicy Variant wrote: »

These panels are not efficient and are not going to pay for themselves in Ireland. Why therefore should you get a grant to install a system that will not be economically viable? There are other options with regard to wind and hydro that you can employ if you wish.
To subvent one individual to such a value as to make solar panels viable would be such a cost as to be unrealistic nationally. Unless of course you should get such a grant but not all your neighbours. It just doesn't pay - be it you that coughs up the cost or the government (and therefore me et al).

If your first premise were correct, your second would follow, Payton Spicy Variant, but this isn't necessarily so.

In Britain, for instance, companies like Tesco (not known for their soft and mushy green liberalism) are subventing the cost of installation in private homes in exchange for reaping the grid's payback, according to people on thegreenlivingforum.net who have availed of this.

Germany is currently the largest installer of PV panels, and Canada is now putting huge resources into them.

Ireland has taken the view, historically, that our northern latitude doesn't have enough sun for PV panels to work; however it's not sun that's important but light. The Germans and Canadians seem to feel otherwise than our own scientists - who knows which is right?

I'm taking what advantage I can of windpower by being a subscriber to the horrid Airtricity. Unless my local council throws a few underground mills into the many rivers flowing under Dublin City, there's not much more I can do.

djdrobins

PV Panels in this country as we get very little direct sunlight, and the PV technology at the moment requires very high concentration of direct sunlight.
Wind is the only way to domestically reduce your ESB (Rip off) sorry ESB Bill and make it worth while - if you have a stream on your land that could be used too. There are other options other then PV, but in the cities not a lot. (At the moment)
There are future devices in the pipeline - domestic wind turbines, which are nice and small, and plan to be about Euro1000 (1 grand). Look up Vertical Axis Wind Turbines - they take up a hell of a lot less space and no planning required.

http://www.kedco.com/renewable-energy/vertical-axis-turbine/
This is a larger version but the idea is there - I know of a device that is in development that will be used for caravans / holiday / mobile homes - meaning that you will have all the power you need and not need to have a connection to to the grid. Beaches etc are always windy - not always sunny!

Qualitymark

Thanks, djdrobins; unfortunately, there's no stream on my 30 square feet of land. Or maybe fortunately from other points of view, though a stream would be nice.

The trouble with wind turbines is that they're terribly loud; for suburban houses they're just not feasible. Also, suburbs (even mine on top of a hill) often have multidirectional and episodic wind with the attention span of a socialite, rather than the steady-single-direction wind you need to drive a turbine.

You might be interested in the thread "A year of PV" from the Green Living Forum:

http://www.thegreenlivingforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=104281&p=602265#p602265

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

[QUOTE=Qualitymark;72134433Ireland has taken the view, historically, that our northern latitude doesn't have enough sun for PV panels to work; however it's not sun that's important but light...[/QUOTE]

There is an argument that we don't have sufficient light either. SE England gets multiples of the light we do, as does Germany. I can't speak for Canada without doing some research.

Anyway, regardless, the output from panels in this country is (not historically but currently) not sufficient to justify the costs of installation. It's that simple. You will never get payback on these panels. You would if the government gave a 50% subsidy but the country cannot afford 2million plus subsidies for panels that would still need augmentation from conventional generation.

Qualitymark

This interesting-looking research described in a blog in Forbes

http://blogs.forbes.com/williampentland/2011/05/02/nanocone-tips-take-solar-cell-efficiency-to-next-level/

may augur well:

"Solar cells designed with 3-D nanocone tips can boost the light-to-power conversion efficiency of photovoltaics by a whopping 80%, according to research conducted at the U.S. Department of Energy’s Oak Ridge National Laboratory."

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

And their cost is??

As one contributor to the blog says: "Should we be using cost effectiveness instead of efficiency as the important metric perhaps?"

Qualitymark

Payton Spicy Variant wrote: »

And their cost is??

As one contributor to the blog says: "Should we be using cost effectiveness instead of efficiency as the important metric perhaps?"

Still at the research stage.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

EXACTLY!!!:rolleyes:

dowtcha

How ever you define "cost effective", the fact of the matter is that unless there is large state grant eg. in UK a payment of +40 cent/unit of electricity generated is made, then their installation is not economic, eg the cost of installation vs revenue generated, giving a payback of single number of years. The Irish comparison is nowhere near this and so it is not "economic" to install them

Qualitymark

This is what my friend in the US says (I have her permission to quote her email to me):

Solar system? We got it because we were paying $200 a month or more for electricity, and we wanted to reduce monthly expenses for when we retired. Plus we knew it was terrible for the environment to use that much electricity. Plus the state and county were offering rebates if you bought a solar system. So we put one in, and after rebates, it cost just $16,500. We had such a good experience that we recommended our solar company to a friend of mine at work, but they weren't as great for her. We supposedly paid about $29,000 for our system, but with rebates, we ended up paying about $16,500 actual out of pocket.

I think we got the right number of panels. The company recommended 11 panels. I didn't believe them. I ordered 14 panels, and I think I was right.If I had bought the 11 panels they recommended, I would still be paying electricity bills.

It is NOT cheaper to order more panels, though. Each panel was about $2,000 or so, I think. The entire installation took one or two days and is really very attractive.

Our electricity bill for the last year or say has been about $5.60 per month. The gas for heating is about another $25-$30/month. The old $200 figure was gas an electric. So for both, we've gone down from about $200 a month to about $35 month for both together. We are MOST gratified. In fact, we are paying nothing for electricity. The $5.60 a month is for standard taxes and fees. In January we got about $12 back for the year, for a little electricity we generated that we did not use.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Assuming your friend can get those benefits consistantly month on month and year on year the payback period is 14.6 years. That is only the payback for that individual. As a nation the payback would be much much longer as conventional generating capacity would still have to be provided, and funding costs to the state would have to be factored in as well. It may pay you over your lifetime to install panels but there is no justification for the state offering a subvention for you to do so.
It is much more economical to subsidise insulation and other energy saving programmes where generated energy is saved rather than to subsidise energy generation at the cost level of solar panels.

Qualitymark

Srameen, you may well be right; my friend is in her sixties and reckons it's worth it to her since she won't have electricity bills in old age.

At the moment, PV is expensive, and so it's not worth it for the State to subsidise its use; as the price comes down (and hopefully the efficiency goes up), this may change - anything that produces cheap electricity will be worthwhile.

I hope it's sooner rather than later; at the moment, my gas and electricity bills in winter consume half of the household income. And yes, the attic is insulated well, we have double glazing, and this year we're going to insulate the outside walls (can't use cavity insulation as the 1930s builder carelessly didn't use cavity blocks).

By the way, here's Tesco's Greener Living offer in Britain: http://www.tesco.com/greenerliving/greener_tesco/what_tesco_is_doing/tesco_home_efficiency.page

Anyone know if this is available in Ireland (and if anyone other than Tesco are doing it - wouldn't be a big fan of theirs)?