Tenant won't pay, won't leave either

Slatemen

I am in a tough situation and am looking for advice.

I have tenant who has not paid rent since September 2010. She paid sporadically, and only partial rent prior to that. She was on rent allowance (and we reduced her rent by $100 per month) and at one point we allowed her to use a portion of her deposit to cover part of a month’s rent.

Although it shouldn’t matter, the house in question was previously our family home. It was not purchased as a rental property or an investment, but when work forced us to move abroad (and we could not sell our home) we decided to rent it, hoping to move back home some day.

To give you an idea, it's a 3 bed semi detached in the Dublin suburbs. It would probably sell for EUR240 or EUR250,000 I'm told.

We negotiated with the tenant for about two months after she stopped paying, and eventually issued an eviction notice in October, which she ignored. During that time, we spoke to her social worker and had her rent allowance cancelled, since she wasn’t using it to pay rent.

In early January, we filed with the PRTB. There was hearing in the spring (late March I think), which was decided by the Adjudicator in our favor. The tenant did not object, but has ignored the decision.

She still has not left, nor has she paid anything.

The PRTB will issue a Determination Order next week, after which I believe the tenant has 2 weeks to vacate. My expectation is that she’ll ignore that Order, since there is really no consequence for ignoring that letter.

I’m told the next step is the courts. We can take a civil case or allow the PRTB to proceed with a case. The PRTB route takes longer, but doing it ourselves is costly. In either case it will be several more months before she can be forced out.


During this time, we'll have no income from the property but are still paying the mortgage (plus our own housing expenses overseas). Currently, the tenant owes us over EUR10,000 in back rent.

We are basically out of money.

We have a letting agent working on our behalf, but since January, he’s not really done anything at all to move the process along, making the point that pressuring the tenant could open him / us to objections or actions from Threshold or some other group, or provide the tenant with an oppertunity to object to the PRTB. I can’t blame agent too much as I can’t ask him to break the law (and he hasn’t been paid for 8 months either).

I should add, I have another tenant lined up (an old friend) to move in early June, so I'd like to resove things.

So what do I do? The way I see it, we have 3 choices:

Proceed with a court action (although given our lack of funds, the mortgage will be many months in default by the time that is resolved, especially if we have to hire a solicitor).

Change the locks and throw her stuff to the street when she is not home (even if I got fined for doing it, a fine would be cheaper than the cost I’d incur over the next six months or so of waiting for the courts to act)

Just walk away from the house, and let the bank deal with her. In this instance, I’d also give up on the idea of ever moving back to Ireland, as I’d never raise enough for another down payment and the default on the mortgage would be tough to overcome. (I’d rather not go down this path)

Any ideas?

chughes

I'd go with the lock change option. This person is taking you for a fool and it's not your responsibility to house them. Turf her out and let Social Services deal with the problem. You'll probably never see the money owed to you so cut your losses now.

Slatemen

Does anybody know if anything besides fines could happen to me? I don't mind a fine from the PRTB, but I don't want to go to jail or anything.

tara73

Slatemen wrote: »

We negotiated with the tenant for about two months after she stopped paying, and eventually issued an eviction notice in October, which she ignored. During that time, we spoke to her social worker and had her rent allowance cancelled, since she wasn’t using it to pay rent.

the perfect thing you did here, but why was the rent not directed then to your account ?? that would've solved the problem...?

Slatemen

Tara. I'm not actually sure what happened with the RA. It was going directly into our account for a while, then it stopped. I can't recall why. The agent was dealing with that. The tenant might have got a job or something. I'm just don't remember.

The point is, cutting off RA does not seem to have motivated her.

I know we've been too easy, but it's hard to be agressive from overseas, and we've been following to advice of the agent - which is to rely on the PRTB. They keep telling us that getting nasty will make things worse for us (but not for the tenant). They keep saying there are kids living there, which complicates things.

Yawns

just so you know if you change the locks etc it's not a small fine.

They can sue you for damages and be awarded in the region of 20k for example. it has happened before. It's stupid that they can pay 0 rent and take 3 years to be evicted but if you change locks you are ****ed in court. Just so you know.

iii Stevo iii

Slatemen wrote: »

Tara. I'm not actually sure what happened with the RA. It was going directly into our account for a while, then it stopped. I can't recall why. The agent was dealing with that. The tenant might have got a job or something. I'm just don't remember.

The point is, cutting off RA does not seem to have motivated her.

I know we've been too easy, but it's hard to be agressive from overseas, and we've been following to advice of the agent - which is to rely on the PRTB. They keep telling us that getting nasty will make things worse for us (but not for the tenant). They keep saying there are kids living there, which complicates things.

It seems the non-aggressive route hasn't worked. This woman will stay until the courts tell her to leave.

I can't see how having no electricity or running water will not make things worse for her.

The fact that there's children involved should not concern you, that's her problem.

DonalK1981

Another point is there is talk of deducting fines, adn that at source from social payments, and wages. Sue her for the outstanding rent also. She will have to pay from her dole if you win.

Wolfe Tone

Get onto a debt collection agency maybe? Get some nasties knocking at the door

Slatemen

Lads, thanks. Appreciate the offers of help. I might repost this on the Westies board as well to see what kind of offers I get there.

edellc

as this "tenant" is no longer paying rent the lease is broken PRTB tbh are useless so are threshold this tenant is now a squatter go to the gardai and report them for squatting in your house


in an ideal world it would be nice to change the locks but in reality its a different story
turning of the water and esb is illegal and you can get fined for this

sparks24

in an ideal world it would be nice to change the locks but in reality its a different story
turning of the water and esb is illegal and you can get fined for this

who has to know? two second job and gone into the night

Del2005

iii Stevo iii wrote: »

It seems the non-aggressive route hasn't worked. This woman will stay until the courts tell her to leave.

I can't see how having no electricity or running water will not make things worse for her.

The fact that there's children involved should not concern you, that's her problem.

sparks24 wrote: »

in an ideal world it would be nice to change the locks but in reality its a different story
turning of the water and esb is illegal and you can get fined for this

who has to know? two second job and gone into the night

I knew someone in a similar situation. They turned off the water at the stop cock and the fuse got damaged. The cheeky b!tch called out the council and ESB to get reconnected, the bills where in her name, even though she wasn't paying them either.

Depending on how brazen they are there's nothing you can do bar the fully legal route and by ignoring several official judgements she's knows the law is on her side if you do anything wrong.

doomed

Changing the locks sounds right but I would get consult a solicitor just to make sure you are covered legally. You might be able to get her charged with trespassing on private property given the eviction order. She may also be in contempt.

DonalK1981

doomed wrote: »

Changing the locks sounds right but I would get consult a solicitor just to make sure you are covered legally. You might be able to get her charged with trespassing on private property given the eviction order. She may also be in contempt.

Were you not paying attention, she's not in contempt! She is in his house...

alanacadia

when her lease is up out she goes
you can legally move any member of your family into the family home subject to the origional lease expiring,
bear in mind she has broken many sections of her lease so you owe her nothing.
gice her 30 days notice, then get your friend to move in with thier new lease in hand .
if she causes any problems call the Gardai , remember after her 30 days notice to quit she has no valid rights to be there and she is actually breaking into your home.

you have to make sure that the new person will have on hoand for the Gardai
the valid 30 days notice for the last tenants to vacate the premises
also the new tenant will have to have thier new lease on hand as well
you as the landlord will have to give written proof of your not wanting your old tenants in the home after a certain date , in other words if there in there after that date they are breaking and entering, this is a Garda matter
so let us know how you get on
p/s allow about 5 days after the notice to quit just for good measure.

BostonB

+1 on the ditching the letting agent. They are doing nothing for you. A good letting agent would have got this sorted and have experience in evicting tenants.

It doesn't sound like anyone has actually checked out the legality of all these options or tried them. You can be fined heavily for everything that people have suggested, you may even have to pay the tenant damages, if the tenant decides to take it to court. The Gardai will almost never get involved. The only legal route is through the PRTB and the courts. Which could cost you thousands.

However you'll only minimize the money you lose by getting the tenant out as fast as possible, as a paying tenant in as fast as possible, and by leaving yourself open to the least fine you can. You just have to accept the fine as a business expense and move on.

Seems like some tenants get RA, don't pass it to the landlord and squat until they are forced out, then move to another authorities area and do the same thing over. There doesn't seem anyone you can report to this, as DSP don't run the RA, only the dole.

inforfun

As usual the trouble is that honest people know little or nothing of what can be done legally.
Scum like this squatter (because that is what she is in my opinion) always seem to know how far they can go. And if they do not know themselves, they have a full team behind them who do.
A lot of the posts here, although well meant, more than likely will get you only in deeper ****.
But i can also fully understand thoughts of bulldozering the place down with her in it.

I think that letting agent is a muppet and should get his finger out. He has been paid to take care of your place and he clearly hasnt.

not even wrong

BostonB wrote: »

It doesn't sound like anyone has actually checked out the legality of all these options or tried them.

this exactly. Before you start following the advice of the legal experts who are talking about smashing windows/removing doors/hiring heavies and throwing around the word "squatter" like they know what it means (they don't), spend a few hundred euros for a consultation with a good solicitor who will tell you what you legally can and can't do.

Yes it's expensive but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than defending a wrongful eviction (or even an assault) case.

irishh_bob

Slatemen wrote: »

I am in a tough situation and am looking for advice.

I have tenant who has not paid rent since September 2010. She paid sporadically, and only partial rent prior to that. She was on rent allowance (and we reduced her rent by $100 per month) and at one point we allowed her to use a portion of her deposit to cover part of a month’s rent.

Although it shouldn’t matter, the house in question was previously our family home. It was not purchased as a rental property or an investment, but when work forced us to move abroad (and we could not sell our home) we decided to rent it, hoping to move back home some day.

To give you an idea, it's a 3 bed semi detached in the Dublin suburbs. It would probably sell for EUR240 or EUR250,000 I'm told.

We negotiated with the tenant for about two months after she stopped paying, and eventually issued an eviction notice in October, which she ignored. During that time, we spoke to her social worker and had her rent allowance cancelled, since she wasn’t using it to pay rent.

In early January, we filed with the PRTB. There was hearing in the spring (late March I think), which was decided by the Adjudicator in our favor. The tenant did not object, but has ignored the decision.

She still has not left, nor has she paid anything.

The PRTB will issue a Determination Order next week, after which I believe the tenant has 2 weeks to vacate. My expectation is that she’ll ignore that Order, since there is really no consequence for ignoring that letter.

I’m told the next step is the courts. We can take a civil case or allow the PRTB to proceed with a case. The PRTB route takes longer, but doing it ourselves is costly. In either case it will be several more months before she can be forced out.


During this time, we'll have no income from the property but are still paying the mortgage (plus our own housing expenses overseas). Currently, the tenant owes us over EUR10,000 in back rent.

We are basically out of money.

We have a letting agent working on our behalf, but since January, he’s not really done anything at all to move the process along, making the point that pressuring the tenant could open him / us to objections or actions from Threshold or some other group, or provide the tenant with an oppertunity to object to the PRTB. I can’t blame agent too much as I can’t ask him to break the law (and he hasn’t been paid for 8 months either).

I should add, I have another tenant lined up (an old friend) to move in early June, so I'd like to resove things.

So what do I do? The way I see it, we have 3 choices:

Proceed with a court action (although given our lack of funds, the mortgage will be many months in default by the time that is resolved, especially if we have to hire a solicitor).

Change the locks and throw her stuff to the street when she is not home (even if I got fined for doing it, a fine would be cheaper than the cost I’d incur over the next six months or so of waiting for the courts to act)

Just walk away from the house, and let the bank deal with her. In this instance, I’d also give up on the idea of ever moving back to Ireland, as I’d never raise enough for another down payment and the default on the mortgage would be tough to overcome. (I’d rather not go down this path)

Any ideas?

thier is a myth out there that tennants in ireland have little rights , its not true , tennants can get away with being extremley difficult for a long time in this country without paying any real price for thier dishonesty

Teyla Emmagan

not even wrong wrote: »

this exactly. Before you start following the advice of the legal experts who are talking about smashing windows/removing doors/hiring heavies and throwing around the word "squatter" like they know what it means (they don't), spend a few hundred euros for a consultation with a good solicitor who will tell you what you legally can and can't do.

Yes it's expensive but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than defending a wrongful eviction (or even an assault) case.

This is sound advice OP. The woman obviously knows what she's up to, don't do anything to expose yourself until you talk to a solicitor. She's riding you, she probably knows all her rights and will doubtless have no problem in suing you (free legal aid etc) if you put a foot wrong. Get yourself a good solicitor and a good letting agent and you will get rid of her (by hook or by crook but without getting yourself jailed). It may cost you a few grand in the short term but it will keep you the house in the long run.

BostonB

The flip side of it, is that solicitor aren't going to advise anything that illegal.
And also, they only gain from you going the legal route. Many of these tenants won't bother going to court if you stand up to them. But its a risk, as some are only doing it to get you to court. The Landlord really at a complete disadvantage in these situations. Your not going to get any money from a bad tenant, they don't have any. All you want is the property back as fast as possible. Something the legal route can't do.

Victor

19 posts deleted.

19 infractions handed out.

Keep it constructive folks.

Victor

Slatemen wrote: »

Proceed with a court action (although given our lack of funds, the mortgage will be many months in default by the time that is resolved, especially if we have to hire a solicitor).

The solicitor route might not actually cost all that much.

Change the locks and throw her stuff to the street when she is not home (even if I got fined for doing it, a fine would be cheaper than the cost I’d incur over the next six months or so of waiting for the courts to act)

This will only get you into more trouble and can't be advised. you might try to evict her, only for her to be back in the house the next day and you having charges laid against you.

Just walk away from the house, and let the bank deal with her. In this instance, I’d also give up on the idea of ever moving back to Ireland, as I’d never raise enough for another down payment and the default on the mortgage would be tough to overcome. (I’d rather not go down this path)

Not a great idea. The bank will come after you, not her. And you would be surprised how far some banks can reach.

none2

Has she received the determination order yet ?

Slatemen

Yes. She got the letter and moved out a few days later, so I guess the system works. Of course, we are out EUR10,000 is back rent plus another EUR5,500 in damages to the house and garden.

She claimed she got a Council House, but we called the local housing officer and were informed that her name was not on the list. Seeing as how she has a job, I think she's just renting someplace. I'm going to try to find out where to warn the next landlord.

Also, since she has a job (she left all of her payslips behind), we are going to see about legal action to try to recoup some lost rent.

tanyabond

Slatemen wrote: »

Yes. She got the letter and moved out a few days later, so I guess the system works. Of course, we are out EUR10,000 is back rent plus another EUR5,500 in damages to the house and garden.

She claimed she got a Council House, but we called the local housing officer and were informed that her name was not on the list. Seeing as how she has a job, I think she's just renting someplace. I'm going to try to find out where to warn the next landlord.

Also, since she has a job (she left all of her payslips behind), we are going to see about legal action to try to recoup some lost rent.

As I read on this forum, the system doesn't always work... So you are lucky (sort of..). I wonder what sort of damage could a woman do to a house for 5,500? And I think you have every chance of recouping the rent and damages since she has a job only it would take a long time.

Graces7

Slatemen wrote: »

Yes. She got the letter and moved out a few days later, so I guess the system works. Of course, we are out EUR10,000 is back rent plus another EUR5,500 in damages to the house and garden.

She claimed she got a Council House, but we called the local housing officer and were informed that her name was not on the list. Seeing as how she has a job, I think she's just renting someplace. I'm going to try to find out where to warn the next landlord.

Also, since she has a job (she left all of her payslips behind), we are going to see about legal action to try to recoup some lost rent.

Well done indeed, and yes, to the legal action. Take photos of the damage also. And try to recoup that?

donalg1

Burn em out

celtictiger32

has anybody tried 'persuading' her to leave. seen something similar a few years back seemed to work there.

The_Conductor

donalg1 wrote: »

Burn em out

1 week ban for advocating illegal activities.