Gerry and Kate Mcann promoting Book on Late Late next week

ISDW

Animord wrote: »

The person in the video is someone called Martin Grime, an English Dog handler who the Portuguese police called in on the advice of the British police. (apparently)

Thanks, and why was that video filmed, I'm guessing its not an official police video?

Dudess

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Why not? I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my kids with a total stranger in a foreign country myself. And whats to say the babysitter could have stopped it either? The kidnapper(s) could have subdued him/her in some way could they not? Maybe hit them over the head with something?

You wouldn't be comfortable regarding their safety under the supervision of a babysitter in a foreign country so you'd leave them with nobody? That is some ironic stuff. Those complexes provide professional child-minding services - if there was a problem with them it would be known about. In fairness, I can understand parents feeling apprehensive in relation to a new babysitter, but the McCanns were close by enough to pop in and check all was going ok for them.
And so what if the babysitter wouldn't have been able to stop it. Maybe they would? At least they'd have been there to try. But anyway, I'm talking about the irresponsible nature of the decision in a general sense, not as a reason to blame them for Madeleine's disappearance. I fully agree they're over-paying for that decision now and deserve sympathy. Disingenuous to say it was a run-of-the-mill parenting mistake though.

Folks their little girl has been taken from them, they are being punished enough. You all need to lay off them.

Please don't include me in that with your "all" business, as I'm agreeing with you fully on that score.

mikom

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I don't know about phones but I do they checked their children every thirty minutes that night.

What evidence do you have that the McCanns didn't love and adore their children, they wouldn't have done everything they could to protect them if they thought they were in danger?

This...

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I don't know about phones but I do they checked their children every thirty minutes that night.

______________________________________________________________

dark crystal wrote: »

Their child was stolen from them - do you not think that family have paid enough of a price for their error in judgement that night?

Sticking the knife in really doesn't achieve much, as far as I can see.

Neither does wrapping them in cotton balls.

Animord

ISDW wrote: »

Thanks, and why was that video filmed, I'm guessing its not an official police video?

Dunno, I'm afraid, all I can find is a Sky report saying that The Sun has "obtained a video" of it.

On another of the many websites it says that an "investigator" was videoing it. But nothing on who that might have been. I am sure the information is out there somewhere....

dark crystal

msdemena wrote: »

And when I seen the McCanns being interviewed and being asked if it was a bad decision leaving the kids alone he said very emphatically NO.
!

If he said that, he was wrong for doing so. Of course hiring a babysitter would have been the ideal situation. Nobody should deny the error in judgement on their part that night, especially Gerry himself.

It was a bad decision for sure - but a human one nevertheless. If he could go back and change his actions that night, I have no doubt he would.

TheZohanS

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I don't know about phones but I do they checked their children every thirty minutes that night.

No they didn't, Gerry McCann said it might have been 40min and Kate said she didn't open the door she listened at the door to hear them breathing, she didn't check visually to see if they were ok.

mikom

TheZohan wrote: »

No they didn't, Gerry McCann said it might have been 40min and Kate said she didn't open the door she listened at the door to hear them breathing, she didn't check visually to see if they were ok.

Better again.........

K-9

MagicMarker wrote: »

I didn't know that cadaver dogs found a scent on the McCann's car, that's pretty fúcking damning tbh!!

It's hard not to think the worst just based on that one fact alone.

Well no, cadaver dogs can get things wrong. Remember reading that at the time, they aren't reliable enough evidence.

bad2dabone

dark crystal wrote: »

It was a bad decision for sure - but a human one nevertheless. If he could go back and change his actions that night, I have no doubt he would.

absolutely agree. And while I do have sympathy for the pain that they must be going through I still think the level of their negligence was criminal. No one is a perfect parent and we all must muddle through as best we can but they failed madeline entirely on those nights.

At this stage one wonders what would be the point of charging them with criminal negligence, they've already been responsible for the loss of their daughter. But by not getting called up on charges of negligence then is justice being served?

Its a complex problem.

MagicMarker

K-9 wrote: »

Well no, cadaver dogs can get things wrong. Remember reading that at the time, they aren't reliable enough evidence.

I didn't say otherwise, any one or thing can get something wrong, but they are reliable enough to be used by polices forces worldwide. To completely dismiss it would be a tad naive.

ISDW wrote: »

I thought that the implication was that the body had been transported in the boot, if thats the case, why did the dog go to the driver's door?

If you carry a dead body and put it in the boot of your car, are you going to jump in to the boot after it or are you going to get in the front seat?

ISDW

MagicMarker wrote: »

I didn't say otherwise, any one or thing can get something wrong, but they are reliable enough to be used by polices forces worldwide. To completely dismiss it would be a tad naive.



If you carry a dead body and put it in the boot of your car, are you going to jump in to the boot after it or are you going to get in the front seat?

Thank you, thats what I was hoping someone would reply with. So its the smell of a dead body on somebody else that the dog is apparently signalling? Did it also go to the boot and signal there? As I say, I didn't watch much of it, once I see The Sun's logo on something I tend to switch off. So, it is possible then, is it not, that the car has been hired at some point by someone attending a funeral in the area. I don't know how much contact you would have to have with the body to get the scent on you, but open coffin, someone saying goodbye to the deceased etc, it is feasible? Yes it is probably very far fetched, but no more so than some of the suppositions that have been made to 'prove' their guilt.

I would just rather err on the side of caution that maybe these people really are grieving parents, and not want to add anymore to their pain. If they're not, then they also have to live with that, and hopefully one day they will be found out and punished accordingly.

steddyeddy

K-9 wrote: »

Well no, cadaver dogs can get things wrong. Remember reading that at the time, they aren't reliable enough evidence.

Their not one hundred per cent but the fact is they can smell biological particles and led their handlers to some very dubious places in the mcann case, they cant be dismissed completely because their not one hundred per cent reliable.

Aishae

MagicMarker wrote: »

I didn't say otherwise, any one or thing can get something wrong, but they are reliable enough to be used by polices forces worldwide. To completely dismiss it would be a tad naive.



If you carry a dead body and put it in the boot of your car, are you going to jump in to the boot after it or are you going to get in the front seat?

http://www.nfh.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?28947-What-really-happened-to-Madeleine-McCann - there are links to info on the page

very very interesting stuff in that link - the cadaver dog reacted to the boot and the drivers door - as well as madeleines cat teddy, clothing and in the room. cadaver dogs are trained to scent human cadaver not rotten meat or dead animals for example.

i never knew about that until now either

i would love to know what really happened to the poor girl - she was only a baby really

MagicMarker

ISDW wrote: »

Thank you, thats what I was hoping someone would reply with. So its the smell of a dead body on somebody else that the dog is apparently signalling? Did it also go to the boot and signal there? As I say, I didn't watch much of it, once I see The Sun's logo on something I tend to switch off. So, it is possible then, is it not, that the car has been hired at some point by someone attending a funeral in the area. I don't know how much contact you would have to have with the body to get the scent on you, but open coffin, someone saying goodbye to the deceased etc, it is feasible? Yes it is probably very far fetched, but no more so than some of the suppositions that have been made to 'prove' their guilt.

Bodies at a funeral are embalmed and therefore are odorless, so I don't know how feasible that is tbh. Did these hypothetical people who hired the car also enter their apartment where the dogs also scented decomposing flesh and blood?

ISDW wrote: »

I would just rather err on the side of caution that maybe these people really are grieving parents, and not want to add anymore to their pain. If they're not, then they also have to live with that, and hopefully one day they will be found out and punished accordingly.

Fair enough, you err on the side of caution, I'll go ahead and speculate to my heart's desire.

ISDW

MagicMarker wrote: »

Bodies at a funeral are embalmed and therefore are odorless, so I don't know how feasible that is tbh. Did these hypothetical people who hired the car also enter their apartment where the dogs also scented decomposing flesh and blood?

Was that on that video? As I say, I only watched a small bit of the beginning.

I did say it was far fetched, but hey, I thought this was a game that anyone could play, not just those who 'know' they're guilty:D

MagicMarker

ISDW wrote: »

Was that on that video? As I say, I only watched a small bit of the beginning.

If it were on the video would you believe it?

ISDW wrote: »

I did say it was far fetched, but hey, I thought this was a game that anyone could play, not just those who 'know' they're guilty:D

Well seeing as I don't ''know'' that they're guilty, I guess anyone can play.

msdemena

Interesting thread, many different opinions out there. I don't know what happened to Madeline that night and probably never will. I have no doubt that the McCanns are suffering an unbelievable pain no matter what happened because at the end of the day they lost a child, in saying that I cannot get past the fact that they left the children alone which is ridiculous really considering the price they paid but that's just the way I feel about it.

briann.

Must fancy a bigger gaf :rolleyes:

ISDW

MagicMarker wrote: »

If it were on the video would you believe it?



Well seeing as I don't ''know'' that they're guilty, I guess anyone can play.

With The Sun on it, no, probably not.

PapaQuebec

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocoonassa
Ask Goncalo Amaral, the former cop who was in charge of the investigation.

There's a documentary based on his views called The Truth of the Lie, it's on you tube. In it there's police footage of two British police sniffer dogs doing their work in the apartment and on the car that was hired after Madeline's disappearance. In over 200 searches neither of those dogs have ever given a false positive.

I have Amaral's book "The Truth of the Lie" (english Translation) in both .pdf and .mobi formats. Haven't actually had time to read it yet but if anyone wants a copy they can PM me and I'll find a way to get it to them!

Note to mods - it clearly states at the beginning of the book: "Since this is a copy of a text published on a website for anyone to read this is public domain and no copyright infringements have taken place!
__________________
Copy of a post of mine over on politics.ie
Surprisingly only one user requested the book from me!

PapaQuebec

I have now had a chance to read the aforementioned book.
As a result I think the McCanns and one named individual in the holiday party have some serious questions to answer!
There's a lot of very disturbing data that was never reported by the media, either in the UK or Portugal!
I can quite understand why certain parties - not least the McCanns and the named individual - would want this book supressed!!!
__________________

YumDeiseMum

hondasam wrote: »

you can dress it up anyway you like they went for a meal and a drink and left their children alone in a room unsupervised.

we Don't know if anyone took Madeline.

As far as I'm concerned the parents are to blame for not protecting Madeline.

I will admit I though from day one they were responsible and I still think that.

I have never felt sorry for the parents only for Madeline.

I felt the exact same as soon as I heard the story. It always bothered me that when they found her missing, what did they do, only leave the twins in the apartment unattended to go back to the bar to call for help. I know in the situation of finding a child missing any parent would be frantic but surely you would keep your remaining children as close as possible.

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

They left Madeleine and her twin siblings (under 2 years old) ALONE, EVERY night of the holiday. A neighbour in the above apartment, a Mrs. Fenn said in her statement to the police that she heard Madeleine crying on the Tuesday night from 10.30pm until 11.45pm. The McCanns themselves admitted this when the police statement was leaked in 2008. Yet they still left the 3 toddlers alone on the nights of May 2nd and May 3rd.

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t13654-the-crying-heard-by-mrs-fenn

Makes you wonder if on the night of the "abduction" had they checked on the children at all if they were able to leave them unattended for over an hour a couple of nights previously.

PapaQuebec

YumDeiseMum wrote: »

I felt the exact same as soon as I heard the story. It always bothered me that when they found her missing, what did they do, only leave the twins in the apartment unattended to go back to the bar to call for help. I know in the situation of finding a child missing any parent would be frantic but surely you would keep your remaining children as close as possible.




Makes you wonder if on the night of the "abduction" had they checked on the children at all if they were able to leave them unattended for over an hour a couple of nights previously.

See my earlier posts. I've read "The Truth of the Lie" and am firmly of the opinion that Madeleine was already dead when the evening meal took place. I was more a "council of war"!!!

Animord

YumDeiseMum wrote: »

I felt the exact same as soon as I heard the story. It always bothered me that when they found her missing, what did they do, only leave the twins in the apartment unattended to go back to the bar to call for help. I know in the situation of finding a child missing any parent would be frantic but surely you would keep your remaining children as close as possible.

I know this is a daft thing, but at the time it I thought it was odd that Kate McCann was wearing ribbons in her hair when they were filmed walking on the beach a few days after. I can't imagine anyone getting up in the morning in their circumstances and putting ribbons in their hair.

PapaQuebec

Excerpt from "The Truth of the Lie"

Note to mods - At the very start of the book it states that it is public-domain!


"MAJORCA, SEPTEMBER 2005



Madeleine McCann is two and a half years old and the twins just a few months when they go on holiday to Majorca with their parents. Three couples and their children go with them: David and Fiona Payne with their one-year-old daughter (Fiona is pregnant with their second child); S. and T., with their two children aged 1 and 3; finally S.G.
and K.G., who have a one and a half year old daughter, E. (K.G., is also expecting a child). The trip was organised by David Payne. The latter rented a villa big enough to accommodate all of them.

S.G. got to know Madeleine's mother at university in Dundee, between 1987 and 1992.
K.G. met Gerry McCann for the first time at his wedding to Kate in 1998. They become good friends, see each other regularly, spend weekends together and phone each other often.

After dinner on the third or fourth evening in Majorca, the friends are all settled on the patio. They are having a drink and chatting when K.G. witnesses a scene which flabbergasts her and makes her fear for the safety of her daughter and the other children.
She is sitting between Gerry McCann and David Payne when she hears the latter ask if she - probably Madeleine - did "that": he then puts a finger in his mouth and begins sucking it while putting it in and out - the sexual connotation is obvious - while with the other hand, he traces small small circles around his nipple in an explicitly provocative way. While K.G., stupefied, regards Gerry and David, an uneasy silences settles around the table. Then they all start chatting again as if nothing happened. K.G. starts to distrust the way David Payne relates to the little ones. On another occasion, she sees David Payne making the same gestures while speaking about his own daughter. At this time, it's the fathers who give the children their baths, but K.G. no longer lets Payne near her daughter. After the holiday, K.G. will only meet the Paynes on one occasion, and she will not speak to them. Over the next two years, relations between K.G., S.G. and the McCanns becomes distanced; they will only see each other now at children's birthday parties.

This witness statement from the couple, S.G. and K.G., is taken by the English police on May 16th, thirteen days after Madeleine's disappearance. That information, very important for the progress of the investigation, was never sent to the Portuguese police.
When the Portuguese investigators learn about similar events that allegedly took place during a holiday in Greece - without, however, obtaining reliable witness statements -, they tell the English police, who, even at this point, refrain from revealing what they know on the subject.

It will only be after my removal from the investigation, in October 2007, that this statement will finally be sent to the Portuguese police. Why did the British keep it secret for more than six months? It is all the more surprising that David Payne, who had planned the trip to Majorca - of whom it was known that his behaviour towards the children was, to say the least, questionable -, is the same person who organised the holiday in Portugal, that he is one of those closest to Madeleine and that he is the first friend of the family to have been seen with Kate McCann just after the disappearance (we will talk further about this). He was still present in Vila da Luz when the English police received that witness statement: why wasn't he interviewed immediately?
Without doubt, the Portuguese police could have made progress with the investigation thanks to that lead: such behaviour would merit close attention. Were we looking in the right direction? Might we have established a link with the events of May 3rd? It is difficult to seriously doubt these witnesses."

K-9

MagicMarker wrote: »

I didn't say otherwise, any one or thing can get something wrong, but they are reliable enough to be used by polices forces worldwide. To completely dismiss it would be a tad naive.



If you carry a dead body and put it in the boot of your car, are you going to jump in to the boot after it or are you going to get in the front seat?

Putting big sway on them is naive too, cases have been dismissed because of their lack of reliability.

Savage Tyrant

PapaQuebec wrote: »

[/B]

See my earlier posts. I've read "The Truth of the Lie" and am firmly of the opinion that Madeleine was already dead when the evening meal took place. I was more a "council of war"!!!

Do you think the discussed it with the other members of the group?
Where did you get the translated copy of the cops book?

Sir Oxman

PapaQuebec wrote: »

I have now had a chance to read the aforementioned book.

__________________

Speed reading FTW!

PapaQuebec

PapaQuebec wrote: »

[/B]

See my earlier posts. I've read "The Truth of the Lie" and am firmly of the opinion that Madeleine was already dead when the evening meal took place. I was more a "council of war"!!!

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Do you think the discussed it with the other members of the group?
Where did you get the translated copy of the cops book?

I've had a copy for while but was only tempted to read it after following a similar thread on politics.ie.
I've given many copies to close friends who are/were in AGS and I can honestly say they were shocked by the nature and quantity of vital info that were kept from both the media and the Portuguese Police!!

After reading the book 4 times I am in no doubt as to the likely events of that night!

PapaQuebec

gambiaman wrote: »

Speed reading FTW!

Those posts were copied from another forum, approx 2 days apart!!