Gerry and Kate Mcann promoting Book on Late Late next week

Tipsy McSwagger

I honestly haven't a fcuking clue what happened.

1. Madeline was kidnapped - no sign of forced entry, stories being changed too much, eyewitness accounts changing, no fingerprints.

2. Accidental death - she fell off a couch and banged her head, parents panicked, cleaned up mess, dumped or hid the body.

3. Died of overdose - sleeping pills or calpol in her system, parents realise they would lose their practicing licences and be prosecuted, family torn apart.

For the McCann's - seems proposterous, where's the body, no witnesses, only 3 hours to hide the body put kids to bed go for a meal, both professional's with no previous criminal convictions, still together.

Against the McCann's - refuse to answer basic questions, said it was a kidnapping from the start, accuse innocent people, changing stories, no evidence of an intruder.

Looking at these scenarios the one thing that i cannot understand is if the McCann's had something to do with it then where is the body?
I know if i killed someone and buried them or dumped them in the sea i would be a mental case suffering nightmares and the fear of the police knocking on my door at any moment. And if it was my daughter i would have cracked by now.

The other theory is that they somehow since they are very religious managed to give her a proper christian burial and that is how they can cope.

K-9

I like Keela!

thebullkf

MagicMarker wrote: »

Eh, they're cadaver dogs.

One of them was trained specifically to pick the scent of blood though.

i was just curious as to the source

Are we assuming they were cadaver dogs?...as opposed to search and rescue dogs (if theres a difference?)


EDIT: Sorted.


Now that begs the question...... why blood in a car Maddie was never in...?????

maebee

thebullkf wrote: »

i was just curious as to the source

Are we assuming they were cadaver dogs?...as opposed to search and rescue dogs (if theres a difference?)

Article about the dogs:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

ISDW

TheZohan wrote: »

Not just any dog, it was Keela.

K-9 wrote: »

I like Keela!

So do I, I love to see dogs working on things like this.

From that quote you put up:


Keela’s considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.

I'm assuming that either these forensic tests weren't carried out in this case, or they didn't prove anything? Is there not some ultraviolet light that shows up blood spots, even if they have been cleaned? (or I have been watching too much CSI?:rolleyes:)


PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. “She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye,” he said. “She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it.”The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder,

Again, if the clothes were those worn by Madeleine, and she was killed, is there no forensic method of uncovering the blood or other evidence?

While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.

Was it not Keela in that video? If so, why was she not freezing? She was pawing at the door, running past it etc, she certainly didn't freeze next to it.

I'd be interested to know how Mr Grimes was able to take Keela with him when he left the police force, or is he still a serving officer? Again, without viewing that video again, I thought he was there as a 'civilian'? I'm probably wrong on that, I'm totally confused by it all now.:D

This is the thing that I just can't get past, the fact that there seems to be no other forensic evidence of the McCanns being involved, of their daughter dying after falling and hitting her head, or any sign of them disposing of the body anywhere. The sleeping tablet from the hairbrush is very interesting though, but how come nobody could put all of the evidence together?

If they hid her body somewhere, would there not be any scents in whatever vehicle they used for that? Did they have a hire car at the time? Was that searched? I still just don't understand why a police force would search a car that they didn't hire until so long after she disappeared, when they must have been watching the couple all the time, so would have seen them if they had retrieved a body and moved it? I don't understand the logic of that.

I still can't see how a couple on holiday could have found a place to dispose of Madeleine's body without it being discovered within 4 years. I'm guessing any building sites at the time were checked? Or, if she was killed by someone, have they just been incredibly lucky?

ISDW

thebullkf wrote: »

i was just curious as to the source

Are we assuming they were cadaver dogs?...as opposed to search and rescue dogs (if theres a difference?)


EDIT: Sorted.


Now that begs the question...... why blood in a car Maddie was never in...?????

But that her parents didn't hire until 3 weeks or so after she disappeared.

angelfire9

While I accept that these dogs have done great work I wonder if maybe the cadaver scent detected on the hire car could have any other explanation? Like old decayed skin cells? Or is the cadaver scent that distinguishable?

For example if you had a car park full of cars and Dr. Marie Cassidy (State Pathologist)'s car was plonked in the middle of the car park would Eddie find her car out of all the other cars???

(Presumably there is a cadaver scent off her car given what she does for a living)??

Note: Eddie is the Cadaver dog Keela is the blood dog
And there could be a number of explanations of blood in a car if my car was checked I'd be fairly sure there would be minute traces of blood in it and I KNOW i haven't killed anyone!

steddyeddy

ISDW wrote: »

So do I, I love to see dogs working on things like this.

From that quote you put up:


Keela’s considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.

I'm assuming that either these forensic tests weren't carried out in this case, or they didn't prove anything? Is there not some ultraviolet light that shows up blood spots, even if they have been cleaned? (or I have been watching too much CSI?:rolleyes:)


PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. “She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye,” he said. “She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it.”The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder,

Again, if the clothes were those worn by Madeleine, and she was killed, is there no forensic method of uncovering the blood or other evidence?

While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.

Was it not Keela in that video? If so, why was she not freezing? She was pawing at the door, running past it etc, she certainly didn't freeze next to it.

I'd be interested to know how Mr Grimes was able to take Keela with him when he left the police force, or is he still a serving officer? Again, without viewing that video again, I thought he was there as a 'civilian'? I'm probably wrong on that, I'm totally confused by it all now.:D

This is the thing that I just can't get past, the fact that there seems to be no other forensic evidence of the McCanns being involved, of their daughter dying after falling and hitting her head, or any sign of them disposing of the body anywhere. The sleeping tablet from the hairbrush is very interesting though, but how come nobody could put all of the evidence together?

If they hid her body somewhere, would there not be any scents in whatever vehicle they used for that? Did they have a hire car at the time? Was that searched? I still just don't understand why a police force would search a car that they didn't hire until so long after she disappeared, when they must have been watching the couple all the time, so would have seen them if they had retrieved a body and moved it? I don't understand the logic of that.

I still can't see how a couple on holiday could have found a place to dispose of Madeleine's body without it being discovered within 4 years. I'm guessing any building sites at the time were checked? Or, if she was killed by someone, have they just been incredibly lucky?

Yes they can indeed perform many forensic tests to isolate and label blood samples but if indeed maddy was killed around the scene there might not have been any blood spilt. Must be so frustrating for eveyone involved in that case.

steddyeddy

angelfire9 wrote: »

While I accept that these dogs have done great work I wonder if maybe the cadaver scent detected on the hire car could have any other explanation? Like old decayed skin cells? Or is the cadaver scent that distinguishable?

For example if you had a car park full of cars and Dr. Marie Cassidy (State Pathologist)'s car was plonked in the middle of the car park would Eddie find her car out of all the other cars???

(Presumably there is a cadaver scent off her car given what she does for a living)??

Note: Eddie is the Cadaver dog Keela is the blood dog
And there could be a number of explanations of blood in a car if my car was checked I'd be fairly sure there would be minute traces of blood in it and I KNOW i haven't killed anyone!

Cadaver scent contains hydrolised proteins which is essentially when the proteins of the body break down into their component amino acids. There is a specific smell to it.

steddyeddy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

You asked for a source and you got one, also he covered up the beating and he retired before he got sacked because he is a drunk who didnt do his job properly.

You see the problem I have of this is that dismissing evidence pointed out by a person based on his character rather than tackling the points he made isnt scientific in the slightest. If I start questioning his motives and find out hes a drunk ect I would still have to deal with the points he made not dismiss them because he wanted to make money ect. Thats not how an investigation works. If he is of such poor character as to make up evidence then people should have no problem countering the points he made.

Aishae

even if you could explain eddies reaction to the hire car with tranferance etc. that doesnt explain the reaction in the flat, as it has been proven that no one else died there.
what he reacts to is the chemical given off by a cadaver (usually from roughly 2 hours after death but in certain conditions it could be from 1.5 hours) - which is not given off by the living and this chemical smell is different to that of animals.

sunflower27

K-9 wrote: »

I like Keela!

You're thinking of Kendra.

sunflower27

Did the parents really refuse lie detector tests?

I always thought the washing of the toy was highly suspect.

steddyeddy

Aishae wrote: »

even if you could explain eddies reaction to the hire car with tranferance etc. that doesnt explain the reaction in the flat, as it has been proven that no one else died there.
what he reacts to is the chemical given off by a cadaver (usually from roughly 2 hours after death but in certain conditions it could be from 1.5 hours) - which is not given off by the living and this chemical smell is different to that of animals.

Well thats the thing the smell from animal protein and human protein are basically the same, maybe a different combination of amino acids but the hydrolysis of protein releases a substance called cadaverine which is what causes the smell. Cadaverine would be released from all animals after death however there would be human scent present also and I can only assume that the dog would be searching for a combination of cadaverine and human tissue. I cant explain the dogs reaction to be honest!

Aishae

sunflower27 wrote: »

Did the parents really refuse lie detector tests?

I always thought the washing of the toy was highly suspect.

from many sources: they originally said theyd do a lie detector test(in the media if i recall). when experts offered to do it with them they quickly refused.

Dyr

angelfire9 wrote: »

While I accept that these dogs have done great work I wonder if maybe the cadaver scent detected on the hire car could have any other explanation? Like old decayed skin cells? Or is the cadaver scent that distinguishable?

For example if you had a car park full of cars and Dr. Marie Cassidy (State Pathologist)'s car was plonked in the middle of the car park would Eddie find her car out of all the other cars???

(Presumably there is a cadaver scent off her car given what she does for a living)??

Note: Eddie is the Cadaver dog Keela is the blood dog
And there could be a number of explanations of blood in a car if my car was checked I'd be fairly sure there would be minute traces of blood in it and I KNOW i haven't killed anyone!

I pretty sure the state pathologist doesnt got "don't bother with the crime scene preservation lark lads, just throw him in me boot and I'll have a butchers when i get back to dublin"

steddyeddy

sunflower27 wrote: »

Did the parents really refuse lie detector tests?

I always thought the washing of the toy was highly suspect.

The washing of the toy is either extremely stupid or extremely guilt ridden behaviour. If it was washed out of a desire to hide evidence it would be have to be visible evidence because one wash wouldnt hide the smell from a dog dependant on the chemicals used. The refusing of the lie detector test may be out of fear of giving a false reading or being caught out with an accurate one.

steddyeddy

Aishae wrote: »

from many sources: they originally said theyd do a lie detector test(in the media if i recall). when experts offered to do it with them they quickly refused.

Quite dodgy behaviour.

steddyeddy

CSI boards!

citizen_p

Aishae wrote: »

i dont agree with the way theyve gone about things either - the book etc.

but forgetting the rest of the story and the 'maybes' - you would never get over losing a child. even if that child dies of health problems when they are 40. they arent supposed to go before you in the natural order of things.

I admit my first statment was fairly blunt and not well thought out, but I agree with you here, I understand they have lost a child and theres a long (never ending) grieving process however they way I have seen anything related to this story latley has been through that book. A newspaper spread, with Extracts from the book etc... It just seems too much emphesis is placed on the book rather than an actual search.
are all proceeds from it going to a find madeline Fund?

Aishae

Mousey- wrote: »

are all proceeds from it going to a find madeline Fund?

thats whats been reported yes.

maebee

Only 13% of the money was spent looking for Maddie in the Year End 2008. Full statement of Account here:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id205.html

PinkFly

and there was me thinkin that i was the only one finding it all the facts a bit odd....thank god for this thread


as for the details of the night being mixed up...

maybe they had too much to drink and dont have clue wat actually happened

wat do ye think???

jclally

Kate McCann has a lovely colour.

Must be from lying in the Sun all week

ician

This is probably already posted somewhere, although I didn't see it on the pages I viewed. It is "Madeleine McCann - The Truth of the Lie - Goncalo Amaral's documentary". Documentary of the book that the ex lead investigator Goncalo Amaral wrote on the case. Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxGhlYTNisw

Spanish Eyes

I'm sorry, but I think the child is no longer alive, poor thing.

This is what I think happened to her -

The apartment was unlocked, and she was unsupervised. She woke up sometime after the parents left and got out of bed and wandered. She found the doors unlocked and went outside, as kids do. She kept wandering, not knowing where she was and fell into a drainage ditch or sewage pipe and was washed out to sea.

It might seem a bit far fetched, but no more so than the abduction theory which I do not buy. Why would a paedophile ring abduct Madeleine, and leave two other lovely blonde kids behind? Doesn't make sense at all. And no DNA or other evidence of an intruder was found. The dog's evidence is flaky otherwise someone would have been arrested.

The mother had a few drinks at dinner, and seeing the child gone, realised she could be up for neglect, and screamed abduction.

Awful stuff. But the simplest answer is usually a good bet in things like this. There are too many holes in the abduction/sedation/murder etc. theories, there was not enough time to do any of that. The child unfortunately was curious or frightened, and left the house to find her parents. Then she died. Sadly, and was never found.

Aishae

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I think the child is no longer alive, poor thing.

This is what I think happened to her -


Awful stuff. But the simplest answer is usually a good bet in things like this. There are too many holes in the abduction/sedation/murder etc. theories, there was not enough time to do any of that. The child unfortunately was curious or frightened, and left the house to find her parents. Then she died. Sadly, and was never found.

its a good a theory as any other but heres the things: the mccans admitted the door was unlocked - only after their 'abduction via the shutters' theory was shot down and because there was no forced entry. so it begs the question: was the door really unlocked? because... you wouldnt be thinking of abduction so much as 'kids wake up (as shown on an earlier night when madeleine cried for over an hour) and they will wander, they can hurt themselves' most people find it hard to believe they left the kids alone - but in an unlocked apartment is a bit beyond belief. not impossible. but hard to swallow. if they did leave it unlocked accidently then it might explain it all.

as for the dogs - dont forget that eddie the cadaver dog has never been wrong in his 200 cases, many were high profile cases. i can see how the reaction to the car could be on dodgy ground - transference etc. but the flat too?

its all a confusing case that sends you in circles.
i dont believe the police mishandled it. but to do their job right they need full cooperation and its always more difficult with multi jurisdictions

AskMyChocolate

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

There are a lot of things about this case which I find suspicious and very unsatisfactory; the phone records, the credit card records, the dogs' evidence (which going on their previous record in cases and their identifying the McCanns' car in a line-up of cars) seems pretty damning. But just a couple of things, I would like to point out.

1) From what I have read in this thread, it seems that Gerry McCann upon noticing that Madeleine was not in her bed, assumed that she had gone into her parents' bed (probably to get away from the twins, if they were crying or restless); a not unreasonable assumption. The idea however that any parent,who is not a callous monster, would not go to check to make sure this was the case, I find utterly incredible.

2) And I think this is very important. Everyone in this thread on both sides of the debate seems to accept that the parents were criminally negligent in leaving the apartment unlocked. Who's to say that the apartment was left unlocked? We have only the McCanns' word for it. It is an admission of guilt of negligence and so we accept it without question. However it is also the only way to sell the abduction story. It seems to me highly unlikely that any half-decent parent would leave the patio door open. As stated before, not for fear of abduction, but that the child might wander out into the road. The only reason I can think of is that the designated checker might not want to be juggling with five sets of keys, when the checks were done. Seems a bit implausible though.

Finally, just a theory, and could be wildly off the mark, as I don't know the layout of the apartment, but what if they sedated Madeleine (we know she wasn't sleeping well from the evidence of the tenant of two nights previously), put a teaspoon of whiskey into her bottle, It used to be done before with children teething or a teaspoon of Calpol, and then put her to bed. The parents then wait to make sure the kids are settled, and head off to dinner. However, Madeleine hears the latch going and gets out of bed and climbs up on the sofa to look out the window to see where her parents are gone. In her drugged state she falls and splits her head open off a radiator, falling out of sight, behind the couch.She then proceeds to bleed to death. Horrible, and sorry for being so graphic. The cursory throwing the head round the door inspections fail to notice anything and all seems quiet. When Madeleine is finally discovered two hours later, it becomes obvious that she has been dead quite some time and, being doctors, they know the cause of death, and that the PM will show that the child had been drugged.

They now face manslaughter charges and almost certain imprisonment. They will certainly lose their licenses to practice medicine. They will lose their home and their two other children. In the heat of the moment they panic, dispose of the body, and start the abduction story. And so the lie begins. A tragic accident born of neglect turned into something much more sinister, by a paniced split-second decision.
Just a theory, but seems plausible.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

Btw, there is also no certainty, that the McCanns are working in unison. One may have been lying to the other all along. Also, I don't think anyone knows for certain what did or didn't happen that night, and I would like to make it clear that my theory,is simply that and nothing more. Simply a speculative theory.

I was really hoping I wouldn't have to finish this theory off. I was kind of hoping some other poster would do it. But anyway could I just REITERATE, it is just a theory that fits with all the known evidence and the conclusions of the British and Portuguese police forces.

Posters keep asking where did they stash the body for twenty five days and how did they get it into the rental car with the police and media watching their every move? The body in my THEORY was disposed of by Gerry McCann between the time they arrived back at the apartment and when they rang the police at 23.50. Meanwhile Kate McCann took charge of cleaning up the scene, and washing the contaminated clothes, and the fluffy cat. These were then simply put back with their other belongings, or possibly left in a separate bag, for disposal at a later date.And it was these clothes, that Eddie and Keela identified from the car. Not the body.

Does anybody know what forensic tests were carried out on the clothes and teddy after the identification and whether they would work, or if they were found to be clean or inconclusive?



(I wish there was more info on David Payne. What role (if any) had he in all of this? What happened re a follow-up when the woman from child services thought she recognised him? What was his reaction to the Gaspars' statements (if any) ? Did he sue them for libel? Did he (or any of the McCanns' friends drive the rental car at any stage? There are so many questions.

Btw, just to clarify once again I have absolutely no idea, or feeling, as to whether the McCanns had any involvement in the disappearance of their daughter or not.

dark crystal

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

The body in my THEORY was disposed of by Gerry McCann between the time they arrived back at the apartment and when they rang the police at 23.50. Meanwhile Kate McCann took charge of cleaning up the scene, and washing the contaminated clothes, and the fluffy cat. These were then simply put back with their other belongings, or possibly left in a separate bag, for disposal at a later date.And it was these clothes, that Eddie and Keela identified from the car. Not the body.




Btw, just to clarify once again I have absolutely no idea, or feeling, as to whether the McCanns had any involvement in the disappearance of their daughter or not.

Clearly you do have a feeling about the McCann's involvement in Madeleine's disappearance if you believe the theory you just posted!

Show Time

I find it hard to feel sorry for the Mcann's over the simple fact that no one in their right mind leaves their kids alone when in a foreign country.