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Gerry and Kate Mcann promoting Book on Late Late next week
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its a good a theory as any other but heres the things: the mccans admitted the door was unlocked - only after their 'abduction via the shutters' theory was shot down and because there was no forced entry. so it begs the question: was the door really unlocked? because... you wouldnt be thinking of abduction so much as 'kids wake up (as shown on an earlier night when madeleine cried for over an hour) and they will wander, they can hurt themselves' most people find it hard to believe they left the kids alone - but in an unlocked apartment is a bit beyond belief. not impossible. but hard to swallow. if they did leave it unlocked accidently then it might explain it all.
as for the dogs - dont forget that eddie the cadaver dog has never been wrong in his 200 cases, many were high profile cases. i can see how the reaction to the car could be on dodgy ground - transference etc. but the flat too?
its all a confusing case that sends you in circles.
i dont believe the police mishandled it. but to do their job right they need full cooperation and its always more difficult with multi jurisdictions
Who doesn't lock the door to a room their belongings are in (never mind children) when on holiday in another country? The washing of the toy, the many people and versions of events Tanner was 100% positive about that turned out to be fake, lack of cooperation with police, odds of hiring a car a sniffer dog found dodgy, total lack of emotion of both parents are all things that just don't add up as far as I'm concerned.0 -
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Spanish Eyes wrote: »I'm sorry, but I think the child is no longer alive, poor thing.
This is what I think happened to her -
The apartment was unlocked, and she was unsupervised. She woke up sometime after the parents left and got out of bed and wandered. She found the doors unlocked and went outside, as kids do. She kept wandering, not knowing where she was and fell into a drainage ditch or sewage pipe and was washed out to sea.
It might seem a bit far fetched, but no more so than the abduction theory which I do not buy. Why would a paedophile ring abduct Madeleine, and leave two other lovely blonde kids behind? Doesn't make sense at all. And no DNA or other evidence of an intruder was found. The dog's evidence is flaky otherwise someone would have been arrested.
The mother had a few drinks at dinner, and seeing the child gone, realised she could be up for neglect, and screamed abduction.
Awful stuff. But the simplest answer is usually a good bet in things like this. There are too many holes in the abduction/sedation/murder etc. theories, there was not enough time to do any of that. The child unfortunately was curious or frightened, and left the house to find her parents. Then she died. Sadly, and was never found.
That's a much better theory than mine. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the dogs' evidence though. It wouldn't be considered enough to bring any charges without corroborating evidence but they've never been wrong before in 200 cases.., and the one thing you can be sure of, is that they have no agenda. Also they picked the hire car out of a number of evenly spaced cars in a parking lot, and they alerted in the McCanns' apartment and nobody else's. There's also the phone records and credit card records, and their refusal to co-operate with police, but this, could be due to reasons compatible with simply getting their story straight on how many times they checked in on the kids. It's as good a theory as any, if you're willing to dismiss the dogs' evidence. I wonder did the British and Portugues police come to the conclusion that Madeleine died in Apartment 5A, based on the dogs' evidence solely, or did they have other reasons/evidence for coming to this conclusion.0 -
In relation to the cadaver dogs, perhaps it's also possible that Madeleine was smothered by an abductor to stifle her cries/screams, therefore she did indeed die in the apartment.
If Gerry or Kate then made contact with the bedclothes or teddy bear, which would contain the cadaver scent, they may then have transferred it to other places such as the car.0 -
dark crystal wrote: »In relation to the cadaver dogs, perhaps it's also possible that Madeleine was smothered by an abductor to stifle her cries/screams, therefore she did indeed die in the apartment.
If Gerry or Kate then made contact with the bedclothes or teddy bear, which would contain the cadaver scent, they may then have transferred it to other places such as the car.
its possible that happened
but as for the cadaver smell. it - the chemical - doesnt emerge until at least an hour and a half but more often 2 hours after death.0 -
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dark crystal wrote: »Clearly you do have a feeling about the McCann's involvement in Madeleine's disappearance if you believe the theory you just posted!
I deliberately went out of my way on five seperate occasions, using bold type and capitals for emphasis, to state that it was a plausible hypothetical theory that fit the evidence and did not represent what I believe. Like most other posters on this thread, I don't know what to believe. I really don't know what more I can do for you chief.0 -
dark crystal wrote: »In relation to the cadaver dogs, perhaps it's also possible that Madeleine was smothered by an abductor to stifle her cries/screams, therefore she did indeed die in the apartment.
If Gerry or Kate then made contact with the bedclothes or teddy bear, which would contain the cadaver scent, they may then have transferred it to other places such as the car.
This would only be possible if the abductor paniced and fled leaving Madeleine in the apartment, in which case, the body would have been found. It also wouldn't account for the blood being detected behind the couch.0 -
Can i just pose a point though, these dogs are trained to pick up a scent of cavader is it? How exactly does anybody know nobody else has ever died in that apartment? Just throwing it out there.0
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AskMyChocolate wrote: »This would only be possible if the abductor paniced and fled leaving Madeleine in the apartment, in which case, the body would have been found. It also wouldn't account for the blood being detected behind the couch.
Fair enough....
Was it definitely proved to be Madeleine's blood behind the couch btw?0 -
or blood for that matter, has nobody ever cut themselves on holiday? these dogs weren't trained to detect Maddies blood they were trained to detect any former blood spot.0
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Can i just pose a point though, these dogs are trained to pick up a scent of cavader is it? How exactly does anybody know nobody else has ever died in that apartment? Just throwing it out there.
I think someone else stated on here that it was proven that no one else had ever died in that apartment.0 -
just for those that dont know,they put the dogs thru all the apartments.
and the only one they responded to was the mccanns.0 -
Anyone that calls the kid 'Maddie' automatically invalidates their opinion. Her name is/was Madeline - you never knew her so stop calling her Maddie!
I dunno why that annoys me so much but it's a very annoying tabloid approach to these types of stories - Jamie Bulger was actually called James by his parents, for example0 -
speedboatchase wrote: »Anyone that calls the kid 'Maddie' automatically invalidates their opinion. Her name is/was Madeline - you never knew her so stop calling her Maddie!
I dunno why that annoys me so much but it's a very annoying tabloid approach to these types of stories - Jamie Bulger was actually called James by his parents, for example
It shouldnt really annoy you speedy. And how exactly does it invalidate somebodys opinion??thats redicilous tbh0 -
one dog was trained to sniff out blood,the other wasCan i just pose a point though, these dogs are trained to pick up a scent of cavader is it? How exactly does anybody know nobody else has ever died in that apartment? Just throwing it out there.
trained to sniff out cavaders.by usin dead bodys that were given
over to to science.in the hope of helpin people in the future0 -
'Kate McCann has a lovely tan at the moment. I guess it's because she's been lying in the Sun all week.'
:pac:0 -
The very foundation of being a a parent is protecting your child and keeping them safe. This comes before clothing, feeding them buying them toys and whatever else.
If it were my child Id be going out of my way to answer any questions and do whatever to clear myself as a suspect. Maybe Id be flinging a few teacups in the interrigation room in frustration (we all would) but at the end of the day boxes need to be ticked and areas of the investigation boxed off in order for the investigation to proceed. They refused to do that.
The whole thing is so f**ked up. Something definitely stinks. Poor kid.
Part 6 of the "Truth of the Lie" documentary provides a very plausible theory as to what happened.0 -
The very foundation of being a a parent is protecting your child and keeping them safe. This comes before clothing, feeding them buying them toys and whatever else.
If it were my child Id be going out of my way to answer any questions and do whatever to clear myself as a suspect. Maybe Id be flinging a few teacups in the interrigation room in frustration (we all would) but at the end of the day boxes need to be ticked and areas of the investigation boxed off in order for the investigation to proceed. They refused to do that.
The whole thing is so f**ked up. Something definitely stinks. Poor kid.
Part 6 of the "Truth of the Lie" documentary provides a very plausible theory as to what happened.
yeah, without speculating too much or agreeing with any theories, i do agree with this point.
my daughter was very sick when she was younger and at every hospital visit we had to sit and listen to a bunch of doctors telling us we werent feeding her properly, no matter how many times we told them we were. they kept referring us to dietitians who all asked us the same loaded questions about what we were feeding her but because we were her parents and we wanted them to actually find out what was really wrong with her we answered every single question they asked us honestly, and eventually they agreed to do the biopsy she needed.
i wouldve thought the same should go for if you're being questioned by the police who are trying to find your daughter.0 -
The headline on some paper today was I assume, a quote from her book, "I couldn't make love to Gerry"
makes me sick0 -
Coeurdepirate wrote: »The headline on some paper today was I assume, a quote from her book, "I couldn't make love to Gerry"
makes me sick
The morons that buy those rags because of headlines like that should be fućking ashamed of themselves!0 -
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Coeurdepirate wrote: »The headline on some paper today was I assume, a quote from her book, "I couldn't make love to Gerry" untill we spread out all the money we made over the bed
makes me sick
#possible mis-quote0 -
dark crystal wrote: »Fair enough....
Was it definitely proved to be Madeleine's blood behind the couch btw?
Good question chief. I have no idea, and it's an important question.0 -
Kate McCann refused the services of a ghost-writer for the book, but I presume it was edited by someone - or else it would prove to be a rambling, unstructured read....
I wont buy the book, usually I borrow books from the library or from relatives, but I will read it at some stage. I will definately tune in to the Late Late Show though, If only to read the body language and hear what Kate and Gerry have to say.
The Late Late Show is a live show and maybe someone will catch them off their guard with a shouted question from the audience....???? You never know. I just hope the truth about Madelines disappearance comes to light soon. Those children should not have been left alone in that apartment.0 -
Savage Tyrant wrote: »The morons that buy those rags because of headlines like that should be fućking ashamed of themselves!
"Never mind the missing child, how is the McCanns sex life these days?"
Very odd that anybody would care about or even focus on the couple's sex life. Disgusting reporting.0 -
Would you expect anything else from The Sun?
I believe (hopefully) the majority of people would rather hear any new evidence been brought to light (if any) rather than the parents sex lives. But then again that shows you what ground breaking news The Sun has to offer.0 -
I cant understand why they did'nt lock the doors such a simple thing to do
thick ****ers they should have just left a sign ...
'Kids left alone, we dont care'
They only claimed to have left the apartment unlocked after police debunked their theory that an abductor could have left through the shutters. They also both entered the apartment through the locked front door on the night in question, using their keys. The only reason to believe that the apartment was left unlocked is the McCanns' testimony.0 -
Who doesn't lock the door to a room their belongings are in (never mind children) when on holiday in another country? The washing of the toy, the many people and versions of events Tanner was 100% positive about that turned out to be fake, lack of cooperation with police, odds of hiring a car a sniffer dog found dodgy, total lack of emotion of both parents are all things that just don't add up as far as I'm concerned.
Just on the emotion part.
While it's obvious to think any parent would be distraught and in tears and breaking down, people react to in different ways.
Being cold and silent isn't that unusual, sure wasn't it expected of men for generations.
And a bit offtopic but when I got knocked off a bicycle by a jeep, I started giggling, it's a reaction to shock. Possibly you've been to funerals where people crack jokes outside the church? Laughing is another way to deal with issues, much the same as crying
Sorry, offtopic. I've no issue with your list but I wouldn't hold the lack of emotion against them0 -
Does anyone remember this woman.
This is how you're supposed to react when your child is missing. This b!tch WAS in it for money. 0 -
I feel sorry for the two other children, their lives have been moulded around something which is still undergoing scrutiny and will for the foreseeable future.0
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This is a link to an exact word for word account of part 2 Fiona Payne's testimony. It is long but interesting reading.
Bear in mind that this interview was conducted almost 1 year after Madeline's disappearance.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/mccann-case-fiona-elaine-payne-rogatory_27.html
Here is a link to part of Matthew Oldfield's testimony:
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/mccann-case-matthew-david-oldfield_2595.html
Overview of the holiday before disappearance:
I will try to highlight the main points for anybody who doesn't have time to read it all.
From it we learn that the rest of the group did not spend a huge amount of time with McCanns on holiday, it was mainly in the evening/night that the group met up at the Tapas, and for the odd tennis game.
Fiona says that she and Kate would collect their children from the morning kids club together at about 11am. She said that the rest of the group didn't really avail of the evening kids group, but that the McCanns regularly had their children in the evening kids club, and would go off to do activities by themselves separate from the group.
This might be irrelevant, but I do not know if there are records that the McCann children were in their kids group on the evening Madeline disappeared, or if there was a change from the norm and that they were alone with their parents for the evening?
Fiona says that one of the nights at dinner Kate told her about Madeline asking, "where were you Mummy when me and sean cried last night?",
she says Kate was concerned and was asking Fiona's opinion about their decision to keep the doors unlocked. She said to Fiona,
"Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or’, erm, ‘or locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up’,?"
Gerry kept reassuring Kate "It'll be fine, they'll be fine", and Fiona herself admits that she said to Kate, "I'm sure they'll be fine"
Fiona Payne was the only parent that night with a baby monitor at dinner with her. As far as I know, all their apartments were close by each other, so I do not know why the other families did not have baby monitors with them.
Some events in the hours before the disappearance:
The group had a little thing going where when the women in the group were playing tennis, the men would watch and cheer at the sidelines with the children, and when the men were playing, the women would be at the sidelines with the children.
On the date that Madeline disappeared, Fiona, her Mum, Jane, Rachel, and their children went to the beach at about 3:30pm arriving there at about 4pm.
Matt and Russell showed up at the beach at about 4:30pm after just finishing a boat outing. Fiona's husband David showed up about 20 minutes after that, just before 5pm after returning from windsurfing.[Matthew Oldfield says that Dave was already there when him and Russell turned up]
They ordered some food for their children at the beach bar, and some beer for themselves. Fiona says that the kids food was served at approx 5:30pm.
The men had arranged a tennis game for 6pm, so Fiona told them to go ahead to the tennis, and that she and the other women were going to get the children ice cream desserts, and they would meet up with them soon in about 10 mins.
Fiona and the other women went to the tennis game. Gerry McCann was there but Kate was not, she normally would have been there.
Gerry said at some stage later, that Kate was not there because the kids were very tired that evening, so she had taken them home early to do their bedtime routine, probably bath, stories that type of thing.
Fiona and her mum took Fiona's children home at about 7pm. Fiona's husband David arrived home at about 7:15pm from the tennis.
Fiona went for about a half hour run at 7:30pm, she was back at the apartment at 8pm.
She was asked by detective did she see Kate whilst she was out running? Fiona says she didn't but heard that another member of the group said that they saw Kate running past, in the time period when Fiona was out running [7:30-8pm] .
Fiona says that her husband David mentioned to her that he had called in on Kate on the children before he went to the tennis game. Fiona does not remember if he told her this before or after her run.
Asked how this came up in conversation, Fiona says that her husband was describing to her how "angelic and perfect they looked all clean in their pajamas", he repeated this again to Kate during dinner that night.
[This could of course could all be completely innocent, but bearing in mind that this is the man who Kate and Gerry's friends claim to have seen making sexual gestures/remarks about Madeline and his own daughter, makes it seem abit creepy, thats [I]if[/I] the other people's statements are true]
If David Payne was running late for his 6pm tennis game where he and the other men were meeting Gerry, then why did he feel the need to call in to Kate McCann and the children?
Fiona says that Matthew, Russell and David headed off together to meet Gerry at the tennis for 6pm. She says that they left at 5:55pm or 6pm and that she was saying that they should go as not to be too late.
If he headed off with the other men, why was he the only person who for some reason decided to drop in to Kate's apartment, when he should have been rushing to the tennis with the lads he had left with?
How long did he stay there?
How late was he turning up for the game to meet Gerry and the other men?
Matthew Oldfield says that they were actually running 20 minutes late for their 6pm tennis slot, went to get their gear, and didn't arrive on the court until 6:45pm. He says that Gerry was already there when him, David and Russell arrived. He says that Gerry left early to help Kate out, but that himself and the others played for the best part of an hour. This would make it impossible for David to have been back in the flat at 7:15pm like Fiona claims, it would also make it impossible that Fiona and the other women arrived at the courts at about 6:10pm watching their husbands play tennis, when Matthew says that him and the other 2 men didn't even arrive until 6:45pm]
Fiona returned from her run at 8pm, got the children into bed then went to have a shower and get herself ready for the dinner.
She says that she was running late, and that David and her mum were already dressed and waiting for her.
They had all arranged to meet at 8:30pm, but it was 8:50pm when herself, David and her mum were leaving to go.
They met Matthew Oldfield at this time who was on his way to tell them to hurry up. They had a joke about being late, and Matthew decided as he was nearby to continue on and check on his daughter Grace. The Payne's continued on towards the Tapa's restaurant.
[Matthew Oldfield says he checked on Grace at this time, and also went and stood outside Madeline's shutters for a short while just to have a listen incase of crying. He was not asked to do this by the McCanns, he just did it as he was nearby anyways. He heard no sound at all, and is adamant that the shutters were not open at this point.]
The Payne's arrived at the table. The McCanns had been there since 8:30pm. Matthew arrived back and said that he had listened outside the kids shutters and that everything sounded ok. At 9:00pm Gerry, inspite of Matthew reassuring him that all had been quiet a few mins ago, decided to go and check on his kids.
Jane Tanner left at the same time as Gerry to go and check on her daughter who had not been well earlier.
Fiona does not remember how long Gerry was gone. She says when he came back, he said that he had met and chatted with a man called "Jez" about their tennis. Fiona says the group had abit of banter about this conversation.
Jane also returned and said everything was fine.
At about 9:30pm Russell [Jane's boyfriend], and Matthew Oldfield went off to do the next check of their children.
Kate stood up to go and check on her children, but Matthew offered that he and Russell would go check on them as they were going that way anyways.
Kate said "yeah fine, the patio door is open"
[Matthew and Russell checked their own children separately first, when Matthew went to meet Russell so that they could check on the McCanns together, Russell informed him that Evie had been sick so that he was going to stay with her. Matthew said ok and went to check on the McCann children by himself. He says that the bedroom door was open at an angle, but not fully open. He says that he approached the room, but did not enter. From his angle he says he saw the twins sleeping in their cots. He says he could see their chests moving breathing but does not know what way their heads were facing? He did not see Madeline from his angle, and did not check her bed for her. He just assumed she must have there too asleep.
He says that there was no draught, the curtains were not blowing, and that the shutters were still definitely shut at this point.
Matthew says he spent about 2 minutes in the apartment, and had a look at the McCanns bookshelves to see if there was book he could borrow for sunbathing.
He says that there was a lamp on in the apartment.
Have the McCanns mentioned anything about leaving a light on, or the bedroom door open? ]
Fiona says Matthew returned and informed Jane that Evie was sick and her boyfriend Russell had stayed with her. Jane wolfed down her main course and then went up to the apartment to take over so that Russell could come down and have the steak that he ordered.
Because of the delay when Russell arrived, the restaurant cooked him up a new steak. At about 10pm when his new steak arrived, Kate went to another check on the kids.
It was just after 10pm when Kate came running into the tapas shouting that Madeline was gone.
After the alarm was raised:
Chaos and panic ensued. Fiona stayed with Kate for most of that night, and gives her description of events. Whilst her description of Kate's reaction, does seem like a genuine description of how a mother would react if one of her kids was taken, her testimony does also unintentionally add credence to the sedative theory and to the "fake break in" theory. Let me explain:
Fiona says, that at the apartment Kate was saying that she found the shutter and window open, and that somebody had taken her.
Fiona herself checked the outside shutters and was unable to lift them.
The hotel club manager later stated that there had been no damage to the shutters. The police also confirmed that there was no damage to the shutters, and that there was no evidence of anyone having gone through the window. There was green lichen growing all over the windowsill that was completely undisturbed. The police also confirmed that the shutters could infact only be opened from the inside, and the only fingerprints found on the inside windows and shutters were Kate McCanns.
One week after Dispatches did a show containing all this information, the McCanns went back on their break in story, and went along with the accepted theory that someone must have just used the open patio door.
Kate says again however in her Sun interview that Gerry checked the shutters from the outside and said that they could be opened from there??
No fingerprints or forensic evidence of a suspect was found anywhere.
Fiona says that when she was at the apartment she herself went around looking in the apartment even though it had been checked. Madelines bed sheets were folded back very neatly.
She says that she went all around the apartment and also into the twins room, opening and shutting cupboards, and drawers - the twins did not wake up.
She says Kate was shouting "I've let her down, we've let her down Gerry!", she says Kate was really angry kicking walls, and punching walls [so much so that she ended up covered in bruises the next day], she also says Kate was howling with raw emotion. Through all of this - the twins did not even stir.
She says that Kate and Gerry were crying and making frantic phonecalls to their family. -The twins did not wake up.
She says even after the police arrived and turned on all the lights, and did their own search about the apartment including in the children's rooms, the twins still did not wake up.
Even by only 10:10 all the guests had started gathering around the apartment due to all the shouting, but the twins who were right there in the apartment did not wake up.
She said that during all this Kate kept going over putting her hand on the twins to check that they were breathing.
She was very concerned that they were still breathing and ok.
Between 4 and 4:30am the twins were carried up by police officers to stay in Fiona's apartment and they still did not wake up.
Fiona herself found this very strange, that even when strangers were carrying them to a new bed, so many hours later through all the complete noise and madness that they had not even stirred.
Quote from Kate's own book:I wandered into the children's bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn't stirred. They'd always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural.
Scared for them too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too?
Gerry himself also said in his Panorama interview that the fact that the children did not wake raised the question "had somebody given the twins some sort of substance?"
So ok, I am fairly convinced there were sedatives of some sort involved. The McCanns themselves seem to think it was possible too.
So why then, WHY did they refuse to allow the twins to be tested for sedatives when the police asked them to?
It was a very simple request.
Why did they leave it until 5 months later, before they decided to get the twins tested at a private lab in England?
Supposedly this was after the children had got a few haircuts, which is I think what can be tested for drugs.
Is this true or was it 3 months after the event, and did Kate ask for the test. I have read numerous accounts that they waited 5 months is true, and only 1 account that it was 3 months after, and that kate suggested it then.
Another few odd things:
Jane Tanner at one point said it was definitely Robert Murat she saw carrying a child. Her description then changed to nothing short of the back of an egg shaped head, and that she had not seen the man's face.
Her and Gerry left at the same time to make that approx 9pm check, Gerry got chatting to his pal "Jez". Jane says she passed them, but they both say that neither of them saw her. It was during this check time that she had her sighting of the man, that neither Gerry or Jez saw either.
She says that at the time she didn't take much heed or place any significance on what she had saw, however at a later date, said that she clearly remembered the pattern on the child's pajama bottoms, and that they had a frill on the bottom of them. I just find this vivid memory very odd, when supposedly all she can describe of the man is an egg shaped head, and she supposedly had not placed any significance on this man and child, so how did she remember seeing the exact description of Madeline's pajamas?
After the sniffer dog results, Kate is meant to have said that maybe blood seeped under the tiles/got on the walls because of Madeline's grazed knee or maybe a nosebleed. Grazed knee happened before they arrived in Portugal, and had dried up. Nosebleed would have been contained in a tissue, and not have been enough to seep through tiles. A nosebleed was also never mentioned before the sniffer dog results.
[The blood under the tiles I'm not 100% on, some reports say that it was just blood speckles on the wall. If anyone has a reliable link for the facts there let me know.]
The Cadaver dog results? Kate is meant to have said that she had been in contact with 6 corpses in work in the previous 2 weeks. She said that she sometimes brought Cuddlecat to work with her, and that is maybe how it got in contact with corpses. This just sounds ludicrous, why would a professional doctor be bringing her child's soft toy to work with her, and why would she have said soft toy in contact with corpses?
Earlier reports said that Kate found cuddlecat on a very high ledge that Madeline couldn't reach, and that the abductor must have placed it there. Yet kate still washed this toy that could have contained evidence?
Later reports then said that Cuddlecat was found in Madeline's bed where it usually was at night, and Kate said she didn't even touch it at that time, because she knew a crime had been committed.
Not sure which of these is true?
I don't understand why Kate refused to answer those very simple 48 police questions. Maybe she had been advised not to by her lawyer? I just don't know.
The things that I have put under the heading "another few odd things" are from newspaper sources, and are repeated again and again on loads of pages all over the internet. I do not know how accurate they are, I am under the impression that they have been taken from the Portuguese police statements, and from interviews of Kate and Gerry, but I can not be 100% sure.
Somebody here might have some reliable links to them.
Innocent??
Aside from all my suspicions and questions, a few things make me think the McCanns could possibly be innocent.
1. Kate and Gerry McCann were desperately trying for years to have a baby. They were eventually successful through IVF, and Madeline was born. They are said to have been over the moon and even moreso after the twins were born too. All accounts of them describe them as doting parents, who loved their children to bits. This in my mind would rule out deliberate foul play, but I suppose could not rule out the possibility of a cover up of an accident caused by their negligence, that made them fear their twins would be taken off them.
2. Fiona's description of their reaction sounds very genuine and heartbreaking. Either they are very good actors, or they were genuinely shocked to find Madeline gone. Or Fiona's testimony is made up to match exactly with Kate's? It is from a year later after all.
3. The time frame and their behavior at dinner that night. If the testimonials are true, they were in great form that night and very jovial and in great spirits. I just don't see how they could behave that way if something terrible was after happening in the apartment. I don't see how they would have been the first to be on time and arrive at dinner that evening, if they thought their daughter was dead. Supposedly sometime after 6:25pm David Payne visited Kate on his way to tennis, and would have been the last outsider to see her alive. If what he says is true, they were dressed for bed. Kate and gerry were at the restaurant at 8:30pm, and in great form, It is just a tiny period of time for a death and a hiding of a body to occur, and for the parents then to be so happy and on time for dinner?
4. The huge thing for me is that Kate gave Matthew Oldfield and Russell permission to go and check on her children at approx 9:30pm.
If Madeline was dead, then obviously she or Gerry would NEVER have given someone else permission to go into the apartment to have a look around.
The obvious counter argument to my "possibly innocent" scenarios though is of course "well what if the group are lying?"
Each of my innocent scenarios would have to be only if the group were telling the absolute truth about the timeline of events and the whole "checking on the kids" thing.
What if Matthew Oldfield was not asked to check on the children at 9:30pm? What if none of the parents had been checking regularly on their children? Could they have made up this story with the McCanns out of fear that they too might have their children taken of them?
They were a pile of doctors. Could it have been common knowledge amongst themselves that they all used what they believed was a safe amount of sedative on their children, so that they would sleep through the night?
Was Madeline abducted whilst she was sedated, and that is why nobody heard any screams or cries from her?
Could all the doctors have been afraid that they would get into trouble for not staying with their children/sedating them so they made up the timeline of checking on the kids to cover their own backs aswell as the McCanns?
I mean 2 parents leaving their kids alone like that sounds mad, but people forget that the entire group there left their children alone every night and not one of them found it odd?.
As I said, they were a pile of doctors, did they talk to each other about safe sedatives to use on their children, so that they could enjoy their nights?
Maybe Madeline wandered out, and got kidnapped somewhere a good bit away from the apartment? A fast car could go far enough in the hour gap from when she was last seen. Remember she was seen at 9pm by Gerry, Matthew did not actually see her at 9:30pm, and Kate discovered her missing at 10pm. 1 Hour Gap for something to have happened.
Could one of their friends being involved? What exactly was spoke about when David Payne called to Kate that evening alone? Why did he call, when he was running late for his tennis?
All the above questions are kinda crazy other possibilities, and possible counter arguments to my innocent scenarios.
I think though that all of the groups movements that night were confirmed by the cctv in the Tapas bar, so I think that the checks must have been real.
Were their movements confirmed by cctv or staff, I mean I'm just presuming they must have been?
Some people say that the group are lying and have changed their version of events three times. I am going to have a read over as many of their testimonies I can find on that site to check for myself. I have already found things that don't match between Fiona and Matt's stories, which obviously the police have found too. What are the other discrepancies that the police found to make them come to the conclusion of an accidental death and cover up?
There are so many mad theories out there, even stuff coming from people who are definite that they have seen her, to even more out there stories.
So yeah, huge amount of questions, but also a fair bit of stuff that suggests they could be completely innocent of foul play.
Anything could have happened in that hour long gap.
It's one of the weirdest cases you could come across. I will read some more about it tomorrow.0
This discussion has been closed.
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