Gerry and Kate Mcann promoting Book on Late Late next week

iamwhoiam

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Unless you have been in this situation you cannot possibly know how a person might react.

Of course you dont know . But you have a gut feeling when things dont sit right and I and many more , including police had that gut feeling .Thats all I am saying , I am not saying i know anything .

AudreyHepburn

azvor wrote: »

No one is saying that they were "cold-blooded conspiring killers"....It was an accident, pure and simple....

However, the first reaction ALWAYS... is self-preservation...

Two respected British doctors on holidays with their children and this happens.....The first thing that came to mind was "How the Hell am I going to explain the use of sedatives on our children resulting in the death of our eldest"......That was the over-riding sentiment in this matter.....

Their lives and careers would have been finished right there and then if it was not covered up....and as to who possibly colluded with them in the cover-up...well...that's anyone's guess...

Every time I see the mother on TV, I JUST KNOW she is concealing "something" by her demeanour and especially in her eyes.....

"The Eyes are the Window to the Soul".....

You don't KNOW anything. You can of course speculate on what happened but to say you KNOW exactly what happened is completely inaccurate.

The only people who know what happened are Madeleine and whoever was responsible for her disappearence.

pammy 2

dozydora wrote: »

You know, all of you people who condemn these people make me puke. I will bet 95% of you don't have kids. It is very easy to sit there and pontificate. From someone who lost a child I know that if I thought there was any way whatsoever I could bring my child back I would do anything. And yes I mean anything, regardless of how crazy or humiliating it might be for me. There are no rules for how you are supposed to behave when you lose a child. I said and did crazy things and so did my two children when my son died in a tragic accident. I can even remember going in to buy a lipstick and this was while I waited for my sons body to be repatriated. How crazy is that? Everybody thinks they know how you feel. Well let me tell you, the only people who know are the people who have been there. I pray that none of you ever have to experience it to prove me right. I regard myself as lucky compared to the McCanns. And let me tell you something else, these people are only still on this earth because they have two other children to take care of and also to be there if their child is ever found. They don't have the option of suicide. Unfortunately having said all of this I believe that Maddie is most likely dead but like the McCanns I too would never give up if I thought there was the minutest chance that she was still alive.
So to all of you 'holier than thou'hypocrates I say, you should keep a copy of what you have written and in years to come when you have your own children you should read it. I wonder what your opinion will be then? And to those of you who have children I say let him without sin cast the first stone.

i could not agree with you dozydora some of the people on here make my blood boi they really do,her parents have to live with this till the end of time,lets help these parents who are living in a nitemare

AudreyHepburn

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Of course you dont know . But you have a gut feeling when things dont sit right and I and many more , including police had that gut feeling .Thats all I am saying , I am not saying i know anything .

In your post you stated explicitly what parents would and would not do in this situation. You may not have used the word know but you certainly implied that you knew how a parent would react to losing a child.

But you simply don't, we none of us do.

Kess73

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is a reason why anyone who helps a crime is called an 'accessory' and a reason why that is a crime of itself. If these people are hiding or lying then that is what they are, 'accessories'.
Now, people say that at best, the McCann's covered up accidental death to save their lives and careers?
Is it credible that somebody not involved would 'lie' and risk prison and their own careers? I just can't buy that one.
I am not set in my view...but the pointlessness of some of the Miss Marples style speculation is very annoying and you can't do it in a court for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE



What has been suggested by a large number is that some of the statements are not totally true in order to support their two friends and/or to maybe make it appear like the children were checked more than they may have been. That is not in the same ball park as knowing somebody did something to a child and lying to cover it up.

Some of the statements contradict each other badly and as a result every statement cannot be true, and the statements that have changed to a large degree a number of times are the ones I am most wary of.

Gerry McCann, Tanner, Oldfield, Wilkins, and the quiz master lady whose name I would have to google are the five people whose statements are for things that happened or were seen for periods of time in the 21:05 to 21:30 mark.

That is only a 25 minute span of time, yet there seems to be quite a bit that does not add up when all the statements are put together especially the timelines that cross over and contradict each other.

Plus we have things like Tanner changing the sex and skin colour of the person she is sure was carrying the child, plus that Oldfield's statement went from him not seeing any of the kids when he checked to him seeing two of them through a window on his check.

We have Gerry, Kate, and David Payne disagreeing to a very large degree in statements based on an event earlier in the evening where they tried to use the statements as proof that other people saw Madeline after she left the creche. One statement says Payne was with Kate for at least 30 minutes, Kate's statement says she saw him in passing and for not more than 30 seconds, and a third says he did not spend time there.


Now clashing statements is not proof of any wrongdoing in relation to the child, but it does suggest that someone's version has to be wrong in terms of timelines or who was where at set times.

Personally I think that clashing statements could be the result of trying to cover up that they had not been checking on a regular basis rather than covering up what happened to the child, but unless something comes about that proves what happened to the child, we may never know.

iamwhoiam

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

In your post you stated explicitly what parents would and would not do in this situation. You may not have used the word know but you certainly implied that you knew how a parent would react to losing a child.

But you simply don't, we none of us do.

If you read my post I alos say that none of these in isolation would alert people , its when there are umpteen little episodes that gather moss that people are alerted .
Of course I dont know who did what and how , I simply question alot of the statements as they dont add up .Why for example did Jane Tanner change her story numerous times .And lots of other examples .

And to those who say shame on people for doubting , well maybe doubters find answers and doubters have found liers in many cases .
People are fully entitled to opinions and I respect all opinions.


If asked , I would have an opinion a few years ago that a group of well educated doctors wouldnt have dreamed of leaving a total of nine children alone while they dined ., for 5 nights on the trot .How wrong would I have been .

badabing106

Fittle wrote: »

I have to agree with you. If I thought my friends had killed their child, there's not a hope in hell I'd cover for them.

I'm also not set on my view, but the conspiracy theories go completely OTT in my opinion - if you find your child dead in her bed, and you are also caring for two other toddlers, you aren't calm and collected enough to plot & plan a way to cover up.
None of us know the 'type' of person Kate was before she because public enemy number one.

I think you'll find they weren't caring for their children at the time, they were grossly irresponsible and left the three toddlers alone .

If The McCanns came back to find that madeline had had an accident and died as a result , the McCanns would have been responsible for the death of their child through neglection . The Mcanns would have gone to prison , and would have had the rest of their children taken away for a very long time .They are reasons enough for them to cover it up .

Mountainsandh

As regards the statements, I have to say no matter how genuine I was, I would have been an utter disaster if I had had to make such a statement, and more than likely would have often changed bit like Jane Tanner.

a) I'm just not good with times. Top that with 2 glasses of wine, and a holidays feel, and my timings could go from "sort of near enough right" to "totally wrong" in seconds.
b) I'm one of these totally indecisive people, and I find that I often doubt my own point of view. As in, put me in a room, ask me to observe what's there, then take me out of the room and ask me to describe it : chances are I will first state something true and accurate, but then decide that no, actually, maybe there wasn't an empty bottle on the bedside table, or wait, maybe the bottle was there but it was half full, and actually it wasn't quite blue but green. No, blue. Wait, I don't know...
See what I mean ?

So even the Jane Tanner statement changing over time is not something incriminating for me, just a normal person, possibly after a few glasses of wine, not quite sure 100% what she saw, but sure that she did see something.

azvor

There are 2 simple actions that the McCanns could take that would dispel all of these theories and ALL participants here know that they are ONLY theories...and we are only discussing the matter in, hopefully, an intelligent and civilized manner....

(1) I would like the McCann parents to subject themselves to a Narco_Interrogation...(Scopolamine for example...some medical research notes indicate that....... "physicians noted that women in twilight sleep answered questions accurately and often volunteered exceedingly candid remarks. "

(2) The use of Psychics in the case.....The have had some truly outstanding results in these matters....

azvor

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

You don't KNOW anything. You can of course speculate on what happened but to say you KNOW exactly what happened is completely inaccurate.

The only people who know what happened are Madeleine and whoever was responsible for her disappearence.

just as a matter of interest........Where did I use the words "know" and "exactly".....

ISDW

azvor wrote: »

No one is saying that they were "cold-blooded conspiring killers"....It was an accident, pure and simple....

However, the first reaction ALWAYS... is self-preservation...

Two respected British doctors on holidays with their children and this happens.....The first thing that came to mind was "How the Hell am I going to explain the use of sedatives on our children resulting in the death of our eldest"......That was the over-riding sentiment in this matter.....

Their lives and careers would have been finished right there and then if it was not covered up....and as to who possibly colluded with them in the cover-up...well...that's anyone's guess...

Every time I see the mother on TV, I JUST KNOW she is concealing "something" by her demeanour and especially in her eyes.....

"The Eyes are the Window to the Soul".....

azvor wrote: »

just as a matter of interest........Where did I use the words "know" and "exactly".....

See above, you even highlighted it and underlined it.

azvor wrote: »

There are 2 simple actions that the McCanns could take that would dispel all of these theories and ALL participants here know that they are ONLY theories...and we are only discussing the matter in, hopefully, an intelligent and civilized manner....

(1) I would like the McCann parents to subject themselves to a Narco_Interrogation...(Scopolamine for example...some medical research notes indicate that....... "physicians noted that women in twilight sleep answered questions accurately and often volunteered exceedingly candid remarks. "

(2) The use of Psychics in the case.....The have had some truly outstanding results in these matters....

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant, get psychics involved, they will answer all the questions.

Sorry, I must have missed your post, your theory that they moved her body by car, did they have a hire car at the time?

Kess73

Mountainsandh wrote: »

As regards the statements, I have to say no matter how genuine I was, I would have been an utter disaster if I had had to make such a statement, and more than likely would have often changed bit like Jane Tanner.

a) I'm just not good with times. Top that with 2 glasses of wine, and a holidays feel, and my timings could go from "sort of near enough right" to "totally wrong" in seconds.
b) I'm one of these totally indecisive people, and I find that I often doubt my own point of view. As in, put me in a room, ask me to observe what's there, then take me out of the room and ask me to describe it : chances are I will first state something true and accurate, but then decide that no, actually, maybe there wasn't an empty bottle on the bedside table, or wait, maybe the bottle was there but it was half full, and actually it wasn't quite blue but green. No, blue. Wait, I don't know...
See what I mean ?

So even the Jane Tanner statement changing over time is not something incriminating for me, just a normal person, possibly after a few glasses of wine, not quite sure 100% what she saw, but sure that she did see something.

Tanner came out and said that she was sure the man she saw looked exactly like Robert Murat. She matched hair colour, skin colour (white), height, build and face to Murat.

Then when Murat was cleared as a suspect she changed what she saw to it being a woman with long hair and she suddenly had a detailed describtion of a woman carrying a child.

Then it became a man whose face she could not remember.


Her final version became a man with dark or sallow skin who a long pencil moustache, long greasy hair who looked of hispanic origin.


She also went from it being a child being carried, to it being a child in pyjamas, to finally being able to recall exactly what pattern/design was on the pyjamas as well as the shade of pink it was.


Her statements seemed to change based on who was a suspect at any given time and also to match whatever the McCanns were saying in public at given times.


I could undertand a person getting small things wrong or mixed up in their statements, but totally changing the sex of the person you saw and then changing it back but changing the skin colour and also changing from being sure you saw a fellow brit to it being a hispanic?

Those changes are a bit hard to believe, especially for a witness that a hell of a lot of the McCanns version if things is based upon.

Kess73

azvor wrote: »

There are 2 simple actions that the McCanns could take that would dispel all of these theories and ALL participants here know that they are ONLY theories...and we are only discussing the matter in, hopefully, an intelligent and civilized manner....

(1) I would like the McCann parents to subject themselves to a Narco_Interrogation...(Scopolamine for example...some medical research notes indicate that....... "physicians noted that women in twilight sleep answered questions accurately and often volunteered exceedingly candid remarks. "

(2) The use of Psychics in the case.....The have had some truly outstanding results in these matters....

Personally I would prefer to see things solved using actual evidence as it gets found rather than through a psychic.

Kess73

ISDW wrote: »

See above, you even highlighted it and underlined it.




Brilliant, absolutely brilliant, get psychics involved, they will answer all the questions.

Sorry, I must have missed your post, your theory that they moved her body by car, did they have a hire car at the time?

Maybe someone can correct me here if wrong, but I was under the impression they only got a hire car after the night the child was found to be missing.

Mountainsandh

Can I also add, that had I and my husband been in that situation, I think we would also have checked the shutters first (like Gerry). Because, by doing so, you are narrowing down or at least getting a better idea of where to look, and how the child could have disappeared. I don't think OH or myself would be the type to just run outside and look hapharzardly. We would certainly look every where around, and in a panic, but I think it's safe to say that both myself and OH would probably first check what is the most likely exit way, so that we could check that first and quick.

Not that we are cold blooded murderers, or inhuman. Simply that, we have some method ingrained in us, that would probably make us more tactical than spontaneous, even in a panic situation.

All the speculation make Gerry McC and the others into some sort of American movie characters, or characters from a bad novel. Some people are very cool headed, and cold blooded, or calculating... some people are more spontaneous and panicky, and disorganised. Some people are a bit of everything. As others have said, we (and I) can't guess exactly what our reactions would be in the situation, and no police force should speculate on this.
Unless they have one of these top notch profilers like in the Mentalist

iamwhoiam

pammy 2 wrote: »

i could not agree more dozydora with what you have said,they dont deserve to be on here you make my blood boil you really do,god knows madeliene,s parents can never forgive each other but we should be helping them get madeliene back,you could all do with a job with the so called portu police,shame on you all

Why do people who have a different opinion have to fire shots at those who feel differently . ?
I have an opinion , I could be very wrong we all could .But I respect that others dont have my opinion .
There is no real need to get aggressive simply because someone is not of the same opinion . I certainley am happy to read AudreyHepburns posts and listen to her side of things as she is never aggresive and makes a point ,.Ranting at people rarely makes them listen in my opinion .,

Mountainsandh

Kess73 wrote: »

Tanner came out and said that she was sure the man she saw looked exactly like Robert Murat. She matched hair colour, skin colour (white), height, build and face to Murat.

Her final version became a man with dark or sallow skin who a long pencil moustache, long greasy hair who looked of hispanic origin.


She also went from it being a child being carried, to it being a child in pyjamas, to finally being able to recall exactly what pattern/design was on the pyjamas as well as the shade of pink it was.


...changing from being sure you saw a fellow brit to it being a hispanic?
.

Kess73 have you a link to the 3 (or more !) statements ? I just googled it to re-read, and all I came across was the first statement made 4/5/07, where she already described the child's pyjamas, and "thought" that the man didn't look like a tourist (I think the word "native" is used) and had longish hair at the back, thick and brown. (no mention of the pencil moustache allright). At that stage, if I recall right, Murat was not implicated in the investigation in any way. ?

Here, quoting the site I'm looking at, statement of the 4th of May :
Jane Tanner’s description of the individual:

Brown male between 35 and 40, slim, around 1.70m. Very dark hair, thick, long at the neck. (Noticed when the person was seen from the back). He was wearing golden beige cloth trousers (linen type) with a ‘Duffy’ type coat (but not very thick). He was wearing black shoes, of a conventional style and was walking quickly. He was carrying a sleeping child in his arms across his chest. By his manner, the man gave her the impression that he wasn’t a tourist.

(**) Concerning the child, who seemed to be asleep, she only saw the legs. The child seemed to be bigger than a baby. It had no shoes on, was dressed in cotton light-coloured pyjamas (perhaps pink or white) It is uncertain, but the interviewee has the feeling that she saw a design on the pyjamas like flowers, but is not certain about it.

Mistyeyes321

sam34 wrote: »

Mistyeyes, I have to ask why do you capitalise random words in your posts? It's very distracting and makes them hard to read.

Sorry I will try to do better!:D

Mistyeyes321

pammy 2 wrote: »

i could not agree more dozydora with what you have said,they dont deserve to be on here you make my blood boil you really do,god knows madeliene,s parents can never forgive each other but we should be helping them get madeliene back,you could all do with a job with the so called portu police,shame on you all

Who doesn't deserve to be on here? I couldn't care less whether Mr & Mrs M ever forgive eachother fact!
Have you had dealing's with the pj? I ask because you seem quite Hostile toward's them!
This is an open forum where people come to discuss all manner of thing's they find interesting this case being one of them!
If you don't like what you see you do have an option not to look, It really is that Simple!

Mistyeyes321

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Just some thoughts on the scent of a cadaver in the apartment;

1.) I have read in a few places that a human cadaver won't begin to emit an odour until between 36 and 48 hours after death (the time varied a little between those two). Now if Madeleine did die in the apartment you would assume that whoever was responsible would remove the body almost immediately. They certainly would not leave a dead body lying there for the better part of two days. So thus Madeleine's body would have been gone from the apartment long before it started to give out an odour.

2.)So that begs the question of what the dogs smelt. I had the thought that maybe there was something in the apartment mimicing the smell of a cadaver; rotting food in a bin perhaps or some small animal that died in the apartment. I remember in primary school about 12 years ago a shrew died in one of the presses during a particularly hot week and the smell was atrocious. Perhaps that was what the dogs picked up?

Just some things that occurred to me as I was reading over the thread.

I didn't know how long it takes for Cadaver to be released quite interesting to learn this.
I'm sure there was mention of Maddie tripping up & scratching her knee boarding the flight to Portugal. Maybe this could be the reason the dogs alerted to blood in the apartment. You know what Children are like for taking Scabs off & the scratch could have bled again! Just a thought.!

Mountainsandh

Yes and I think there was mention that the blood was in unlikely spots like behind the sofa, or curtains, but in fairness if Madeleine is/was any bit like my kids, mine would climb on a sofa and tumble down the other side, hide behind curtains, etc... and easily rub a grazed knee against walls that way.

Fittle

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know why they always refer to 'cadaver' rather than 'corpse' when they spoke about the smell the dogs got? What's the difference?

Mountainsandh

For anyone interested, I was reading (it's very long so not read all) Jane Tanner's interview with British police where she tries to remember as much as possible.

It gives a good idea of how confused she seems to feel about everything, but she does state that she observed this man with child about 5 meters away, much closer than I thought !

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id222.html

She honestly says herself how confused she feels about trying to remember everything, and how since she has seen the pyjamas Madeleine was wearing since then (her first statement was on the 4th may so she wouldn't have seen them at the time), she can't seem to remember what she had seen before so she just wants to rely on her first statement. She also says that she remembered a side view better even on the 4th, and asked if a sketch could be done of the side view, but was told it wasn't possible.

LizT

As for the witnesses changing their statements, it's not surprising. It's hard to remember everything in minute detail. I was watching a documentary about a woman who was raped and when she was asked to identify her attacker, she chose the wrong suspect. She became so convinced it was him and he was sent to jail for the attack. Finally DNA analysis evolved and proved that he was not in fact the attacker. He was released from jail and the real attacker was jailed.

The woman got an extremely good luck at the attacker's face but when she drew the e-fit and then saw the identify parade then she somehow changed his face in her mind.

A lot of it had to do with the way she was interviewed, things became skewed in her mind.

ISDW

Fittle wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know why they always refer to 'cadaver' rather than 'corpse' when they spoke about the smell the dogs got? What's the difference?

Its probably just a more scientific term, I guess with the work these dogs and their handlers have to do, maybe it helps them to be a little bit removed from the fact that it is a human body.

Fittle

ISDW wrote: »

Its probably just a more scientific term, I guess with the work these dogs and their handlers have to do, maybe it helps them to be a little bit removed from the fact that it is a human body.

Oh right. I've only ever heard the term cadaver used for research purposes - in college situations for example. This is the only case I've ever heard a dead body being referred to like this. Even in the worst child killings, which are difficult enough to read, they always refer to the 'body' etc, and I've often wondered why it's different for this story.

ISDW

Fittle wrote: »

Oh right. I've only ever heard the term cadaver used for research purposes - in college situations for example. This is the only case I've ever heard a dead body being referred to like this. Even in the worst child killings, which are difficult enough to read, they always refer to the 'body' etc, and I've often wondered why it's different for this story.

Thats only a guess on my part:D The dogs are generally known as cadaver dogs though, whenever they are used that is the term used, not just in this case. They used them in Ireland a few times, looking for missing people and newsreaders always call them Cadaver dogs. Maybe corpse dogs would give the wrong image:eek:

strandroad

Just my guess, but "body" or "corpse" refer to a complete body, while "cadaver" is also about fragmented remains, which sadly is often all dogs can work with... I think?

K-9

lizt wrote: »

As for the witnesses changing their statements, it's not surprising. It's hard to remember everything in minute detail. I was watching a documentary about a woman who was raped and when she was asked to identify her attacker, she chose the wrong suspect. She became so convinced it was him and he was sent to jail for the attack. Finally DNA analysis evolved and proved that he was not in fact the attacker. He was released from jail and the real attacker was jailed.

The woman got an extremely good luck at the attacker's face but when she drew the e-fit and then saw the identify parade then she somehow changed his face in her mind.

A lot of it had to do with the way she was interviewed, things became skewed in her mind.

Eye witness reports are prone to group think. Ideally and the inspector pointed to this a few times, get them in as quickly as possible for interview to avoid suggestions from others and of course, agreed stories.

Mistyeyes321

Mountainsandh wrote: »

For anyone interested, I was reading (it's very long so not read all) Jane Tanner's interview with British police where she tries to remember as much as possible.

It gives a good idea of how confused she seems to feel about everything, but she does state that she observed this man with child about 5 meters away, much closer than I thought !

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id222.html

She honestly says herself how confused she feels about trying to remember everything, and how since she has seen the pyjamas Madeleine was wearing since then (her first statement was on the 4th may so she wouldn't have seen them at the time), she can't seem to remember what she had seen before so she just wants to rely on her first statement. She also says that she remembered a side view better even on the 4th, and asked if a sketch could be done of the side view, but was told it wasn't possible.

OMG i've started reading this Statement & after two hour's i've just managed to get to Thursday.! My Other half isn't amused..So i'm blaming you..:D