Very rural Ireland

salonfire

This picture shows how stupid it all is. Even to look at it, it looks horrible.




How many miles of copper has to be used running cables from house to house.

Imagine the miles the postman has to travel to serve each of those houses

Pete_Cavan

FF and proud wrote: »

Ah sure without the rural areas we would be nowhere at all. Sure we are still mainly a farming country and we need to keep the country alive so that we have a thrivving farming community. Without rural ireland the economy would collapse and we woudlnt have much to export. The an Taisce people dont really take account of that when they try to depopulate the rural areas.

You misunderstand the issue with one-off houses. Nobody, not even an Taisce, are suggesting we depopulate rural areas entirely. Of course farming is extremely important to the country and it underpins our economy. Of course farmers must live in the countryside, on their farmers, and they will continue to do so.

The problem is the is countryside of full of people who work in urban areas but have built large vanity houses in the middle of nowhere and have to travel substantial distances to work, are completely car dependant, and cost the taxpayer in general a fortune in the provision of services, while also destroying our beautiful countryside.

We should introduce a system like in the England whereby only those who use land productively (farmers) are allowed to build a house outside of towns. Large numbers of people living in the country but working in towns in not sustainable and we must put a stop to this practice.

Aard

If all the houses in that photo were grouped together (yes, even with their huge gardens between them, but just not the fields), you'd have a village of around 150 people. Everybody would be within walking distance from the centre, which could sustain a cornershop at the very least. It would still be virtually rural.

If this happened around the country, think of the savings on: post/deliveries, road maintenance, broadband provision, water piping... I know people say that the one-off owners pay for a lot of it themselves, but it's still costing more than it should! Bus services would become viable, fewer people would be travelling on poor roads, people wouldn't have to drive to pick up a pint of milk...

Tbh, it's a no-brainer for me. But I do realise that many many people prefer the way of the isolated house. I just don't understand what's so unattractive about living in clusters of housing (note: I do not mean terraces, or semi-Ds. Look at the outskirts of north Cork city; that's what I would be proposing.), or indeed what's so attractive about living far away from one's neighbour. Can anyone explain?

losthorizon

Harps wrote: »

Yep, one off housing is commonly overlooked but is one of the biggest disasters of the boom. Most N and R roads in the country are littered with housing for their entire length with tiny, dead villages dotted about every 10 miles or so. If the population was centred around towns and density prioritised then at least it'd be possible to provide basic services. Someone builds their house 10 miles from the nearest town and then complains when theres no public transport, no broadband, no local services etc.

We're a country with a population of 5 million yet we only have 5 cities with more than 50,000 people. No major company with any sense is going to set up in a sparsely populated area with no services

Best post I have read since I joined boards. One-off housing has been a disaster.

silverharp

Subsidies have always been a distaster and people will have to live with the consequences of being subsidised to live halfway up a mountain. If local people had to pay to for local roads and infrastructure then people would congregate around small villages and towns and the cost of living would be lower.

Kosseegan

FF and proud wrote: »

Ah sure without the rural areas we would be nowhere at all. Sure we are still mainly a farming country and we need to keep the country alive so that we have a thrivving farming community. Without rural ireland the economy would collapse and we woudlnt have much to export. The an Taisce people dont really take account of that when they try to depopulate the rural areas.

People moving into twons and villages is not going to result in any less farming being done. It will mean bigger more efficient farms which are more likely to be able to produce quality product for export. We would also increase tourism revenue if the countryside was less blighted with one off houses.

Mal-Adjusted

salonfire wrote: »

T

you do realize that without the houses, that's still a completely artificial and man-made landscape?

Aard

We're not talking about how it looks, but the ultimate cost both economic and social.

cakeisgood

I live 5 miles from the nearest shop, thats how rural it is. I am a town girl at heart and am planning on being here for as little time as possible. Although it is beautiful I hate having no options. You cant nip to the shop, call into friends or do much. The internet connection is crap (in Dublin tonight otherwise doubt would be able to do much here), instead of getting roads paid for like towns do, as well as paying tax like everyone else we have to pay extra if we want any improvments done (the roads are still terrible by the way), tons of potholes and they are so narrows cars cant even get passed one another. As well as that, our water supply is crap and not just when we have freezes in weather. Its dries up in Summer, freezes in winter, not to mention the time I was in the shower and muck started pouring out of the shower head. We have to burn our rubbish which is terrible for the environment as we have no bin service and we bring the recycables like tins into my Grandparents every week. Its ridiculous. Trying to plan nights out is a nightmare-No decent taxi service and if I was to go out in the nearest decent town I would have to pay over 40e for a taxi home. Needless to say there is no public transport system. I have lived in towns and in Dublin and I definately prefer it even if it is more expensive

thebman

cakeisgood wrote: »

I live 5 miles from the nearest shop, thats how rural it is. I am a town girl at heart and am planning on being here for as little time as possible. Although it is beautiful I hate having no options. You cant nip to the shop, call into friends or do much. The internet connection is crap (in Dublin tonight otherwise doubt would be able to do much here), instead of getting roads paid for like towns do, as well as paying tax like everyone else we have to pay extra if we want any improvments done (the roads are still terrible by the way), tons of potholes and they are so narrows cars cant even get passed one another. As well as that, our water supply is crap and not just when we have freezes in weather. Its dries up in Summer, freezes in winter, not to mention the time I was in the shower and muck started pouring out of the shower head. We have to burn our rubbish which is terrible for the environment as we have no bin service and we bring the recycables like tins into my Grandparents every week. Its ridiculous. Trying to plan nights out is a nightmare-No decent taxi service and if I was to go out in the nearest decent town I would have to pay over 40e for a taxi home. Needless to say there is no public transport system. I have lived in towns and in Dublin and I definately prefer it even if it is more expensive

I don't think you know how to live outside of a town rather than this being what living outside a town is like.

Where exactly is this rural area?

cakeisgood

thebman wrote: »

I don't think you know how to live outside of a town rather than this being what living outside a town is like.

Where exactly is this rural area?

Co.Clare, I'd rather not say where in Co.Clare exactly because I like to keep my location details private if thats ok

silverharp

cakeisgood wrote: »

I live 5 miles from the nearest shop, thats how rural it is. I am a town girl at heart and am planning on being here for as little time as possible. Although it is beautiful I hate having no options. You cant nip to the shop, call into friends or do much. The internet connection is crap (in Dublin tonight otherwise doubt would be able to do much here), instead of getting roads paid for like towns do, as well as paying tax like everyone else we have to pay extra if we want any improvments done (the roads are still terrible by the way), tons of potholes and they are so narrows cars cant even get passed one another. As well as that, our water supply is crap and not just when we have freezes in weather. Its dries up in Summer, freezes in winter, not to mention the time I was in the shower and muck started pouring out of the shower head. We have to burn our rubbish which is terrible for the environment as we have no bin service and we bring the recycables like tins into my Grandparents every week. Its ridiculous. Trying to plan nights out is a nightmare-No decent taxi service and if I was to go out in the nearest decent town I would have to pay over 40e for a taxi home. Needless to say there is no public transport system. I have lived in towns and in Dublin and I definately prefer it even if it is more expensive

just curious do local people think the problems should be remedied? or do they accept that they have live with the downside of such dispersed settlement patterns? where it wold be impossible to supply top quality infrastructure to everyone.

thebman

silverharp wrote: »

just curious do local people think the problems should be remedied? or do they accept that they have live with the downside of such dispersed settlement patterns? where it wold be impossible to supply top quality infrastructure to everyone.

I think living in town was fine when I was in college.

I wouldn't want to settle in a town, maybe a village.

Housing estates are horrible places IMO. Parking is like a territorial war and most people aren't considerate of noise levels to their neighbors.

The only decent estate I lived in was on the edge of the town and the problem with those is the edge of town moves whenever the government decides to put a housing estate on the end of all the other housing estates and then you are back in town.

Really the problem is the endless, lifeless housing estates though, they make living in towns in Ireland seem awful depressing IMO. People can go on about services but there are no services in most towns/villages in Ireland worth having except a shop.

Things like bin services etc... are actually profitable with few enough houses on a road. There is a private bin service on my parents road and milk delivery and post. Eircom even upgraded the local exchange and it is a low population area. Sure they are making less money than in a city but they are still making money.

cakeisgood

silverharp wrote: »

just curious do local people think the problems should be remedied? or do they accept that they have live with the downside of such dispersed settlement patterns? where it wold be impossible to supply top quality infrastructure to everyone.

I think these problems should be remedied definately but everyone else seems to accept it. I have never heard anyone else getting annoyed about it. Maybe they are more used of it then I am or more country people at heart then me, I dont know.

busman

silverharp wrote: »

just curious do local people think the problems should be remedied? or do they accept that they have live with the downside of such dispersed settlement patterns? where it wold be impossible to supply top quality infrastructure to everyone.

Solution is to keep townies in the town!!!

I'm very happy with the infrastructure I have out here.
Own water, school 1 mile walk away, bring my trash to recycle centre every year or so. Great neighbours that stop and have a chat.
Grow my own veggies. Have my own horse outside

silverharp

^^

Good for you! each to their own, Personally its large city for me and Dublin just about qualifies. boring commuter towns would wreck my head , rural idyll would be second choice

My issue is that people should not be subsidised to live in uneconomic areas as by definition someone else has to pay the cost and doesnt get to enjoy the benefit. basically if a letter costs 2€ to deliver to some obsure place or a new road built in a rural area would need a toll of €10 to justify the cost then the state is misusing resources and is introducing dead costs into the economy so everyone suffers in the long run , unless you are the cute hoor local minister that secured the crazy "investment"

busman

silverharp wrote: »

^^

Good for you! each to their own, Personally its large city for me and Dublin just about qualifies. boring commuter towns would wreck my head , rural idyll would be second choice

My issue is that people should not be subsidised to live in uneconomic areas as by definition someone else has to pay the cost and doesnt get to enjoy the benefit. basically if a letter costs 2€ to deliver to some obsure place or a new road built in a rural area would need a toll of €10 to justify the cost then the state is misusing resources and is introducing dead costs into the economy so everyone suffers in the long run , unless you are the cute hoor local minister that secured the crazy "investment"

So what your issue is that we don't pay the full cost of everything?
A bit like they way we subside Dublin bus?

silverharp

silverharp wrote: »

just curious do local people think the problems should be remedied? or do they accept that they have live with the downside of such dispersed settlement patterns? where it wold be impossible to supply top quality infrastructure to everyone.

I think that most rural folk are aware that that their services are not as good as that of townies and just accept it as fact.
The problems occur when a town dweller moves into the country and expects similar service levels to that they have become accustomed to in the town.

silverharp

busman wrote: »

So what your issue is that we don't pay the full cost of everything?
A bit like they way we subside Dublin bus?

in the sense that people would not live like they do in rural Ireland if there were not economic transfers from denser populated areas. And I dont doubt that money is wasted on Dublin Bus. Its not a "fair share" argument , its an argument against subsidies that create a misallocation of resources.

thebman

silverharp wrote: »

^^

Good for you! each to their own, Personally its large city for me and Dublin just about qualifies. boring commuter towns would wreck my head , rural idyll would be second choice

My issue is that people should not be subsidised to live in uneconomic areas as by definition someone else has to pay the cost and doesnt get to enjoy the benefit. basically if a letter costs 2€ to deliver to some obsure place or a new road built in a rural area would need a toll of €10 to justify the cost then the state is misusing resources and is introducing dead costs into the economy so everyone suffers in the long run , unless you are the cute hoor local minister that secured the crazy "investment"

In some rural areas, people do have to drive to the post office to pick up their mail.

I don't know how widespread it is. On the road my parents live, it is rural but you couldn't say it is not populated as there are houses right beside each other along most of the road at this stage.

It is bad planning I guess but these roads exist anyway and are never going to become main roads.

I don't think most rural people would have a problem with a zone based postage system if they had the choice to go collect the post at the post office in the morning instead in the town and were texted from the post office to let them know there was mail to collect to stop them wasting a trip.

I have to agree with another poster though, the problem in rural areas is city dwellers moving out and crying they don't have the services they had in the city as well as complaining about farmers tractors blocking the road or bringing sheep/cattle up/down a road. Just a fact of life in rural Ireland. I thought it was great when I moved to a town for college and was able to just walk down the shops. Felt great, thought I'd always like to live in a town after first year but recently, starting to realise I much prefer being outside the town and paying for the taxi home after the pub or driving to the shops despite the extra cost.

Most people from towns just want the town life with a view. It is not going to happen. I grew up in a rural area and I'd like to return to one but I expect all essential services to cost more as a result. I just like the quiet of a country existence and don't like living in a town.

Cue the green freaks saying, OMG the pollution but town life in Ireland is no better as people commute long distances to work there too. I think Ireland is firmly pinnings its hopes on electric vehicles to reduce travel pollution for everyone as there has been no forward planning anywhere and even Dublin is more like LA than a European city with low density planning so we are going to end up being car dependent regardless and we are best to focus on coming up with a solution for that problem because we can't go back now.

BrianD

thebman wrote: »

... the problem in rural areas is city dwellers moving out and crying they don't have the services they had in the city as well as complaining about farmers tractors blocking the road or bringing sheep/cattle up/down a road. Just a fact of life in rural Ireland.

This is not the problem - is the symptom of the problem. The problem was (and still lingers) was rezoning of lands "in the name of progress" that were in contravention of county development plans, county councillors rail roading planning permissions for "one off" housing on farms which were then sold to "outsiders" all driven by the hype created by getting a foot on the property ladder ... anywhere.

I thought it was great when I moved to a town for college and was able to just walk down the shops. Felt great, thought I'd always like to live in a town after first year but recently, starting to realise I much prefer being outside the town and paying for the taxi home after the pub or driving to the shops despite the extra cost.

That's fine but your only paying for the half of it and that's the problem. The other half is payed for us living in economically sustainable developments. All of it adds up from the cost of postage to the carbon emmissions from you having to drive to the shops and pub.

Most people from towns just want the town life with a view. It is not going to happen. I grew up in a rural area and I'd like to return to one but I expect all essential services to cost more as a result. I just like the quiet of a country existence and don't like living in a town.

You put in perfectly - in a nutshell! And if you prefer a rural environment you understand that it comes with a cost - many others don't.

Cue the green freaks saying, OMG the pollution but town life in Ireland is no better as people commute long distances to work there too. I think Ireland is firmly pinnings its hopes on electric vehicles to reduce travel pollution for everyone as there has been no forward planning anywhere and even Dublin is more like LA than a European city with low density planning so we are going to end up being car dependent regardless and we are best to focus on coming up with a solution for that problem because we can't go back now.

It's not necessarily about town live Vs country life. It's about living in sustainable developments or communities. What we have seen is one off and ribbon developments littering the countryside which both ruins it and is unsustainable. At the same time as you correctly say, urban development in Dublin has amounted to low-density sprawl which makes the provision of the likes of Metro North a nonsense. There are ways of having sustainable rural living but it does requires sensible planning rather than development driven planning.

Aard

BrianD wrote: »

At the same time as you correctly say, urban development in Dublin has amounted to low-density sprawl which makes the provision of the likes of Metro North a nonsense.

Brian, Dublin is not low-density. This has been proven time and again. I, among others, have made many posts in this regard that you don't respond to. Most of the sprawl in Dublin (Lucan, Blanch, Sandyford...) has been of quite high density -- apartment blocks, tightly packed houses, small gardens. The only reason I imagine you're so adamant in this belief is that you don't want MN to be built.

BrianD

Aard wrote: »

Brian, Dublin is not low-density. This has been proven time and again. I, among others, have made many posts in this regard that you don't respond to. Most of the sprawl in Dublin (Lucan, Blanch, Sandyford...) has been of quite high density -- apartment blocks, tightly packed houses, small gardens. The only reason I imagine you're so adamant in this belief is that you don't want MN to be built.

Dublin is low density and sprawling. The city I'm referring to is Dublin, capital of Ireland and it's hinterland.

I have responded numerous times to your posts time and time again - if you are unable to accept the fact of the matter and continue in denial then that's your perrogative.

Not only that it is widely accepted by every state body and private groups that have an input or voice an opinion on the matter.

Really, Aard I'm very reluctant to attack you personally but you have to accept reality and the facts of the matter.

In regard, to Metro North (MN) that is the reason it isn't justified at this time - and that's speaking from somebody who would love to see more (rapid) rail based transport in the city.

Aard

I'm not talking about hinterland; I'm talking about the urban area of Dublin and it's immediately adjacent suburbs.

dubhthach

Mod

Folks given that the thread is about rural Ireland it would be preferable not to allow it get sidetracked by discussing semantics with regards to specifically Dublin city.

BrianD

I would agree entirely and thank you foe saving Aard from further embarassment.

However, what's happened in the Dublin area has happened elsewhere in Ireland where due to bad development policies people who would prefer to live in an urban style development were forced outward and urban style developments were allowed further out from centres almost to cater for this demand which unfortunately is unsustainable in nature. I suspect this is why you have so many people who want their services and facilities to be at "urban" rather than "rural" standards.

As for this arguement over certain services in urban areas e.g. bus services being subsidised. This would happen anyway to a greater or lesser extent. The reason we pay taxes is so that we can provide these services to the taxpaying community at large - in sustainable communities these taxpayer subsidies offer better value.

murphaph

busman wrote: »

So what your issue is that we don't pay the full cost of everything?
A bit like they way we subside Dublin bus?

You don't subsidise ANYTHING in Dublin. Nothing in Dublin (or some other URBAN centres, like Cork and Waterford) is subsidised by taxes taken from outside those areas. Indeed, if Dublin kept all its tax revenues it would have a world class underground system by now, never mind Dublin Bus.

Don't believe me? Go check the CSO figures for social transfers!

busman

murphaph wrote: »

You don't subsidise ANYTHING in Dublin. Nothing in Dublin (or some other URBAN centres, like Cork and Waterford) is subsidised by taxes taken from outside those areas. Indeed, if Dublin kept all its tax revenues it would have a world class underground system by now, never mind Dublin Bus.

Don't believe me? Go check the CSO figures for social transfers!

Couldn't be bothered to check, you can keep your underground, I'll keep my horse :cool:

This message brought to you from beyond the pail

BrianD

busman wrote: »

This message brought to you from beyond the pail

It's pale - a pail is what you stick under your cow when milking it!

Computer Sci

For me, the problem is not whether there are houses in rural areas, some people will want to live in rural areas, just as some people will wish to live in cities and larger towns. However, what I find myself confused about is not so much the houses themselves (although I would profess to been a conservative when it comes to housing types), but the layout of the great area around them.

I would have thought that given that these large gardens had been taken out of agricultural use, that there would we be more of an emphasis on gardening and the planting of trees – perhaps even tiny woodland patches, close to the road perhaps where the roots would not pose a threat to the foundations of the house.

It would be interesting to find out why simply claiming an area of land and not doing anything with it – is so prevalent throughout Ireland. Not only does adding trees and doing some gardening around a property add enormously to the value of the property, but it attracts wildlife and biodiversity as well. I believe something needs to be done to encourage people to take a stewardship role in greening the countryside with trees and plants, and thus encourage wildlife to flourish – and to move away from the concept of simply enclosing the area around the property and doing nothing with the garden.

Even with the increase in our woodland cover area throughout the course of the 20th century, we are still well behind countries like France and Germany where woodland cover is within the region of 33%. With the increasing productivity of agriculture and with spare land left over – along with the countless large gardens in rural homes around the country, I think some kind of encouragement of greenery and planting should be considered, akin to the tidy towns concept which seems to work well for small towns and villages throughout the country.