Default on mortgage

Hairyass

I bought a house just over seven years ago in a relatively small midlands town. I took out a variable rate mortgage with PTSB for 150k. Two years ago when PTSB raised intrest rates (again),I fixed it for five years.

Since then I have been finding it more and more difficult to make my mortgage payments. It is well into negative equityand still has over 100k owed on it. I have taken a mortgage holiday (3 months), gone on intrest only for 6 months (thats all they'd give me), and am coming to the end of a reduced payment period.They will not allow me to extend the payment periodof the mortgage

I am at my wits end about the house, I have advertised it for rent, got two replies, one person looked, and didnt take it, the other had to be forceably evicted from his previous house.

Almost a year ago I went to the bank and asked them about selling it. They told me that because I would be breaking a fixed term agreement I would be liable for a "fine" of between 5 and 7k. They then told me that when an offer is made on it that I have to contact them and they would decide if it is realistic enough before releasing the deeds. They said that ther remainder of the mortgage would be turned into a personal loan set at the mortgage intrest rate. Since then the house has been viewed once and no offer of any kind has been made.

I have a job (which I hate, thats a whole other story) and after putting most of my wages aside to meet the mortgage and some of the other bills, I have about 100 euro per week to live on. I use the term "live" very loosely as I only exist anymore. Out of this 100 euro comes diesel money for a ninety mile per day commute.

So, if I decided to tell the bank they can have the house, What then??
They sell it and chase me for the remainder if the mortgage???
The estate has gone downhill badly in the last few years. While there are some good people in it, there are an awful lot of undesirables and people who know what the inside of a jail cell looks like.

I want rid of this ball and chain, but what can I do??

Tigger

what would i do or what should you do?

i take it you can't rent it to the co co or some govt scheme

what you should do is honour that contract that now with 20-20 hindsght you wish you'd never seen

what i would do is string them along live rent free for the next how many years it takes to evict you and reposess your house and then i'd go rent a nice place in the uk or mabey the north and apply for bankrupcy as soon as i was elligable
the money i had i'd keep liquid and there are certain assetts that they cant take off you in the uk even when you go bankrupt

then i'd be free

edit 180 views no replies shows a lot

Senna

If i was you. I'd rent the house out (your 2 viewing only might be down to price of rent, reduce it and a descent tenant will apply sooner or later). I would then rent someone cheap closer to work. No point killing yourself with a 90 mile commute because you're tied to a house.
Work out how much you can realistic pay off the mortgage (its still going to be tough) and continue to make payments at that reduced rate, if the bank doesn't agree to it...feck them. Your "reduced payment" will probably mean the bank wont ever take legal action and as your mortgage is small compared to most, you can worry about the arrears in a few years.


Or



feck off to England and let the rest of us cover your mistakes.

dan_d

You need to sit down and talk to the bank
Make an appointment, go in and sort something out with them
If you're going to sell at a loss, then you can't sell. Unless you have the money to cover the loss. The bank simply won't allow it.
You can hand over the keys if you're prepared to leave the country and not return. The debt will stay with you if you hand them the keys.

So, step number one. Contact the bank, make an appointment and tell them the problems. Not over the phone, in a sit-down, face to face meeting.They are bound by a code of conduct released by the Central Bank for mortgages in arrears, but a key part of all of this is keeping the lines of communication open. I might suggest going to MABS aswell, so you can show them that you're trying to sort out the money situation to the best of your ability.

Riskymove

OP sorry to hear about your difficulties

Can you clarify around how much would be still owed if you sold the house?

It doesnt seem to be a particularly OTT expensive house; you may be able to afford to pay off the remaining amount over time

Ray Palmer

Go to mabs as suggested and talk to the bank. They really don't want the house and you will will probably be able to negotiate a payment plan. The most extreme is they insist you sell and you have the debt the other extreme is they reduce your mortgage and you never really pay it off but it ends up cheaper than rent.

Prices will change at some point and you will probably end up cleared of debt but won't own the house at the end of it and the bank make a profit that way.

Tigger

Senna wrote: »

feck off to England and let the rest of us cover your mistakes.

see the thing is that were not covering his mistake if he does
when he took out this mortgage te procedure was that if you didn't pay the bank took it back and sold it on
you get the balance if they got more that you owed you woed the difference if they got less
so that wouldn't have cost us a penny
but the banks fecked up so the govt made the decision to take on all these issues and now its on us if he defaults

but this wasn't his fault he was a person buying a house and agreeing to terms
those terms have drastically changed

if you wanna blame the ameture property tycoons that have three house and the tax allowances that covered sligo and letrim with empty houses then thats fair enough but this was a guy trying to buy a home and he has been caught by circumstances

i warned many of my friends against buying at the end of the bubble some listened some didnt

those that didn't listen will have harder lives then those that did but there are ways out.

no point ruining you're life over a ****ty decision

ABajaninCork

OP - DO NOT RUN TO THE UK OR ANY OTHER EU COUNTRY!!!

You do know you can be chased for the debt anywhere in the EU don't you? Especially as this is a property debt, all the bank will do is repossess, sell the house at auction for pennies, and then chase you for the remainder. Don't forget the compound interest (calculated daily!:eek:) they'll lump on as well...

I would try to rent out the gaff again. Have a look at comparable houses in your area, see what they rent out for, and set a competitive rent.

Good luck!!

mikemac

Approach the county council and see if you could rent to them. There is the RAS scheme for long term tenants.
You may have to fix up the house and do some work. And you'll have to negotiate the rent with the council.

An option anyway

It's a midland town but there are housing lists in every county so the council might go for it. You can try

It's a bit like welfare for landlords too if you look at it another way

Tigger

ABajaninCork wrote: »

OP - DO NOT RUN TO THE UK OR ANY OTHER EU COUNTRY!!!

You do know you can be chased for the debt anywhere in the EU don't you? Especially as this is a property debt, all the bank will do is repossess, sell the house at auction for pennies, and then chase you for the remainder. Don't forget the compound interest (calculated daily!:eek:) they'll lump on as well...

I would try to rent out the gaff again. Have a look at comparable houses in your area, see what they rent out for, and set a competitive rent.

Good luck!!

he can go bankrupt in england

ABajaninCork

Tigger wrote: »

he can go bankrupt in england

Yes, he can but it takes time. I think you have to be resident 12 months before you can do this. If the OP took this option, he then has the bank hassling him for money he does not have. Why set yourself up for 12 months of stress?

You speak of bankruptcy as though it's a quick fix. It's not. In the UK, yes you're discharged after 12 months. Then it's 6 years of:

No bank account
No credit
No way of withdrawing money as most employers pay through BACS, not cash or cheque (unless you're doing something dodgy!;)). You'll have to get any money you need through someone else's bank account as you can't have one of your own.
Nothing in your name AT ALL. Who needs all this?


Your credit will be screwed for YEARS after that even after discharge. Given the times we're in, it's hard enough to get credit even if you have an A1 score, never mind a bankrupt discharged or not. Many of the established banks will not even consider extending you credit.

I agree with the other posters. The best bet is to try and rent out the property either through the LA or privately.

Hairyass

Skipping the country is not an option.

I am going into the bank tomorrow (tuesday) to have a talk to them.
My bank only deals with mortgages on a tuesday!!!

I will ask them about a long term solution regarding my mortgage/house, if that is suitable then fine, if not, I will offer them a sum of money each month and if they dont like it then though.

@ Feelingstressed, I spoke to the town council, the county council and the health board, They already have huge lists of houses and were not keen on adding another

@ Riskymove, The house has four good sized bedrooms and is on the market for "offers over 100k"
I am looking at owing 40k plus IF I sold it

ABajaninCork

Hairyass wrote: »

I am going into the bank tomorrow (tuesday) to have a talk to them.
My bank only deals with mortgages on a tuesday!!!

How odd!! I would've thought someone would be on hand to discuss during the working week. I've never heard of this before...

Hairyass wrote: »

I will ask them about a solution regarding my mortgage/house, if that is suitable then fine, if not, I will offer them a sum of money each month and if they dont like it then though.

I am looking at owing 40k plus IF I sold it

I don't believe the bank will turn down any reasonable offer of payment. SOME money is better than none. You could prepare a budget for them showing exactly where your money goes. Tell them 'I can pay X' and stick to it.

If the matter ever gets to court, this will stand very strongly in your favour, and the bank will be shown to be acting unreasonably in chasing for more money when there is none.

Are you able to get an appointment with MABS where you are? They might be able to negotiate with the bank on your behalf as well.

Good Luck!!

Tigger

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Yes, he can but it takes time. I think you have to be resident 12 months before you can do this. If the OP took this option, he then has the bank hassling him for money he does not have. Why set yourself up for 12 months of stress?

You speak of bankruptcy as though it's a quick fix. It's not. In the UK, yes you're discharged after 12 months. Then it's 6 years of:

No bank account
No credit
No way of withdrawing money as most employers pay through BACS, not cash or cheque (unless you're doing something dodgy!;)). You'll have to get any money you need through someone else's bank account as you can't have one of your own.

Source?


Your credit will be screwed for YEARS after that even after discharge. Given the times we're in, it's hard enough to get credit even if you have an A1 score, never mind a bankrupt discharged or not. Many of the established banks will not even consider extending you credit.

I agree with the other posters. The best bet is to try and rent out the property either through the LA or privately.[/QUOTE]

ABajaninCork

Tigger wrote: »

Source?

Apart from the fact I'm English? Well - I know plenty of people back home this has happened to. Some never even went as far as bankruptcy, just an IVA and the scenario I have described has happened.

How about YOUR sources?

CiaranC

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Yes, he can but it takes time. I think you have to be resident 12 months before you can do this. If the OP took this option, he then has the bank hassling him for money he does not have. Why set yourself up for 12 months of stress?

You speak of bankruptcy as though it's a quick fix. It's not. In the UK, yes you're discharged after 12 months. Then it's 6 years of:

No bank account
No credit
No way of withdrawing money as most employers pay through BACS, not cash or cheque (unless you're doing something dodgy!;)). You'll have to get any money you need through someone else's bank account as you can't have one of your own.
Nothing in your name AT ALL. Who needs all this?


Your credit will be screwed for YEARS after that even after discharge. Given the times we're in, it's hard enough to get credit even if you have an A1 score, never mind a bankrupt discharged or not. Many of the established banks will not even consider extending you credit.

I agree with the other posters. The best bet is to try and rent out the property either through the LA or privately.

I dont think this is true, can you point to a source for this?

ABajaninCork

Please see my previous responses. Without going into too much detail, I have helped personal friends through this process, even though I am by no means a financial expert. My source were the good old CAB!!

I will say it once more. I am English. This process happened at home. I do not know the rules here. In any case, did not the OP say that skipping the country was not an option? (after I had posted)

I do know for a fact that a debt incurred in the EU can be chased ANYWHERE within the EU.

CiaranC

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Please see my previous responses. Without going into too much detail, I have helped personal friends through this process, even though I am by no means a financial expert. My source were the good old CAB!!

I will say it once more. I am English.

I cant find any source on the internet that confirms this. With you being English and an expert on the process, you wont mind pointing us in the right direction then?

ABajaninCork

CiaranC wrote: »

I cant find any source on the internet that confirms this. With you being English and an expert on the process, you wont mind pointing us in the right direction then?

This has gone a little off-topic, and is not helpful to the OP. I did say did I not that I am NOT an expert? And if you look, I did say I used the CAB as a source when helping my friends, didn't I? This took the form of face-to-face meetings with them.

Hairyass

Guys, if you want to slag each other off, please go to another thread.

Anyway, about time I posted this;

I made an appointment with my mortgage adviser who also happener to be the assistant manager. We talked for a long time about my situation, but she didnt come up with any real solution. She kept sayin that she was obliged that my mortgage was in arrears, blah, blah.

So I came up with a solution,
Offered an amount of money that I can afford a month (it was lower than I can afford) and she immediately came back with a larger amount. This was exactly what I can afford a month.

She printed off a form making an application to HQ for the reduced amount. I told her that she can apply all she likes but that is all they're getting. She didnt really have any reply to that.

NOTE

I did learn one important thing from the meeting,
The banking crisis is far worse than anyone in the govt/banking will admit in public.

I believe that the banks need the ordinary person more than we need them, so its time to stop the banks trying to bully us!

Ray Palmer

Hairyass wrote: »

NOTE

I did learn one important thing from the meeting,
The banking crisis is far worse than anyone in the govt/banking will admit in public.

I believe that the banks need the ordinary person more than we need them, so its time to stop the banks trying to bully us!

Well how do you learn this? No mention of what makes you think this

Senna

Senna wrote: »

Or



feck off to England and let the rest of us cover your mistakes.

no you mean Brian Lenihans mistake to lump bank debt on us

Senna

Hairyass wrote: »

Guys, if you want to slag each other off, please go to another thread.

Anyway, about time I posted this;

I made an appointment with my mortgage adviser who also happener to be the assistant manager. We talked for a long time about my situation, but she didnt come up with any real solution. She kept sayin that she was obliged that my mortgage was in arrears, blah, blah.

So I came up with a solution,
Offered an amount of money that I can afford a month (it was lower than I can afford) and she immediately came back with a larger amount. This was exactly what I can afford a month.

She printed off a form making an application to HQ for the reduced amount. I told her that she can apply all she likes but that is all they're getting. She didnt really have any reply to that.

NOTE

I did learn one important thing from the meeting,
The banking crisis is far worse than anyone in the govt/banking will admit in public.

I believe that the banks need the ordinary person more than we need them, so its time to stop the banks trying to bully us!

Glad to hear your making progress, at least the bank "might" be open to a new payment plan, so many people seem to get nowhere when talking to branch staff.

the groutch

OP, sounds like you're working for your car/van
I would be trying everything under the sun to cut that 90 mile round trip down

btw, I agree with your approach, keep paying something and it will keep the wolves from the door

freedom front

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Yes, he can but it takes time. I think you have to be resident 12 months before you can do this. If the OP took this option, he then has the bank hassling him for money he does not have. Why set yourself up for 12 months of stress?

You speak of bankruptcy as though it's a quick fix. It's not. In the UK, yes you're discharged after 12 months. Then it's 6 years of:

No bank account
No credit
No way of withdrawing money as most employers pay through BACS, not cash or cheque (unless you're doing something dodgy!;)). You'll have to get any money you need through someone else's bank account as you can't have one of your own.
Nothing in your name AT ALL. Who needs all this?


Your credit will be screwed for YEARS after that even after discharge. Given the times we're in, it's hard enough to get credit even if you have an A1 score, never mind a bankrupt discharged or not. Many of the established banks will not even consider extending you credit.

I agree with the other posters. The best bet is to try and rent out the property either through the LA or privately.

English Bankruptcy Facts:

1. you should be resident in UK for 6 Months before applying to go Bankrupt
2. You can keep a Bank account
3. You can be discharged within 12 months or shorter (sometimes 6 Months)
4. You can hold down a Job & receive payment
5. You can sign on the Dole, if you do not have a Job
6. You can have a modest car if you need it for work
7. Fairly easy to do fill out a form, pay £300

I know 2 Dublin Lads busy with this at the Moment!

The_Conductor

freedom front wrote: »

English Bankruptcy Facts:

1. you should be resident in UK for 6 Months before applying to go Bankrupt
2. You can keep a Bank account
3. You can be discharged within 12 months or shorter (sometimes 6 Months)
4. You can hold down a Job & receive payment
5. You can sign on the Dole, if you do not have a Job
6. You can have a modest car if you need it for work
7. Fairly easy to do fill out a form, pay £300

I know 2 Dublin Lads busy with this at the Moment!

They can busy themselves with it to their hearts content......

Living in the UK for 6 months- is not sufficient to have the UK declared as your COMI (centre of main interest).

If you have been resident in the UK for less than 12 months, the Official receiver *will* look at your circumstances, and will consider any or all of these:-

A check would be made of your given address (UK address), and your landlord contacted regarding your tenancy.

Historical evidence of settlement such as a UK mobile phone, council tax receipts, utility bills, credit card statements and cash withdrawal records.

National Insurance number and employment records

Salary slips

Language skills (you will need to be able to show that you can habitually hold a conversation in English (not an issue for us Irish))

Give it a shot by all means- but the UK authorities are not in the habit of allowing economic migrants off the hook, as some of us Irish seem to appear to think they are.........

CiaranC

smccarrick wrote: »

They can busy themselves with it to their hearts content......

Living in the UK for 6 months- is not sufficient to have the UK declared as your COMI (centre of main interest).

Then just wait twelve months after you move there? Whats the problem?

freedom front

smccarrick wrote: »

They can busy themselves with it to their hearts content......

Living in the UK for 6 months- is not sufficient to have the UK declared as your COMI (centre of main interest).

If you have been resident in the UK for less than 12 months, the Official receiver *will* look at your circumstances, and will consider any or all of these:-

A check would be made of your given address (UK address), and your landlord contacted regarding your tenancy.

Historical evidence of settlement such as a UK mobile phone, council tax receipts, utility bills, credit card statements and cash withdrawal records.

National Insurance number and employment records

Salary slips

Language skills (you will need to be able to show that you can habitually hold a conversation in English (not an issue for us Irish))

Give it a shot by all means- but the UK authorities are not in the habit of allowing economic migrants off the hook, as some of us Irish seem to appear to think they are.........

100% incorrect on length of residency , 6 Months is whats required, Tried & Tested , National Insurance number you will get when you sign on at the Jobs Centre, with this you open a bank account very easy.

The_Conductor

An Irish person moving to the UK to avoid their Irish debt- is covered under the EU 2002 insolvency legislation- and from a UK perspective- under the 2004 Enterprise Act.

1. Court fees are now £700, payable in cash to the court- the £300 finished recently.
2. A UK bankruptcy will cover any UK debt- along with any unsecured EU debt
3. An Irish mortgage on an Irish property is not considered to be an unsecured debt- in order for it to be included in a UK insolvency hearing- it would have to be converted into an unsecured debt (there are a number of firms north of the border advising on these possible arrangements at the moment- such as Mc Cambridge Duffy in Derry for example). A manner of doing this would be to get the bank to agree to sell the property and convert the shortfall into a personal loan. The personal loan, as an unsecured debt, would be cleared by the UK bankruptcy. If the bank suspect the OP may declare a UK bankruptcy- all they have to do is sit on their hands, wait untill after the proceeding, repossess the property and then hit the guy with the unsecured debt (which would technically have been incurred after the bankruptcy).
4. Residency rules- are determined solely by what is considered by the bankruptcy receiver to be a determination of what constitutes a person's centre of main interest. In general its 6 months- however in the absence of a history of UK employment, bank accounts, utility bills etc- its now becoming the norm to demand 12 months of residency. This is to discourage bankruptcy tourism (Germans availing of the more relaxed UK system are being targetting more so than Irish - however as a percentage of cases- the Irish are catching up quickly).
5. If the Irish person moves back to Ireland- their Irish income may be purloined in part or full for up to 3 years following the declaration. They can claim social welfare etc- however the UK receiver will be assessing their Irish income on UK means scales- aka- if they declare themselves bankrupt in the UK and then come back to Ireland and go on the dole- they could face having to pay the difference between the UK and Irish social welfare rates to the UK receiver for a period of up to 3 years
6. The UK bankruptcy is on the person's Irish credit record for a period of 5 years

Other issues:

The UK bankruptcy covers all UK debt and all unsecured EU debt
It does not cover debt incurred through gambling, carelessness or criminality (I'd love to see how this is defined!)

An example of debt that would not be covered:

Has tax been paid on any rental income?
Is the OP living in the property and claiming TRS?
Is the OP not living in the property and claiming TRS?
Are there any debts outstanding to the Revenue Commissioners as a result of factually incorrect declarations? (I.e. if mortgage relief is still being paid at source and the OP is not resident in the property- and declares himself bankrupt in the UK, his payments of TRS by the Revenue Commissioners are not covered under the UK proceedings).


The OP needs to contact a UK bankruptcy practitioner- the UK authorities are actively doing a crackdown on bankruptcy tourism- and are under a lot of pressure from the German authorities in this respect (about German citizens availing of UK bankruptcy law- not Irish citizens, but the principle holds).

Anyone considering actions such as this- *need* to get professional advice- not the musings of an internet forum.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

ShadowHearth

smccarrick wrote: »

An Irish person moving to the UK to avoid their Irish debt- is covered under the EU 2002 insolvency legislation- and from a UK perspective- under the 2004 Enterprise Act.

1. Court fees are now £700, payable in cash to the court- the £300 finished recently.
2. A UK bankruptcy will cover any UK debt- along with any unsecured EU debt
3. An Irish mortgage on an Irish property is not considered to be an unsecured debt- in order for it to be included in a UK insolvency hearing- it would have to be converted into an unsecured debt (there are a number of firms north of the border advising on these possible arrangements at the moment- such as Mc Cambridge Duffy in Derry for example). A manner of doing this would be to get the bank to agree to sell the property and convert the shortfall into a personal loan. The personal loan, as an unsecured debt, would be cleared by the UK bankruptcy. If the bank suspect the OP may declare a UK bankruptcy- all they have to do is sit on their hands, wait untill after the proceeding, repossess the property and then hit the guy with the unsecured debt (which would technically have been incurred after the bankruptcy).
4. Residency rules- are determined solely by what is considered by the bankruptcy receiver to be a determination of what constitutes a person's centre of main interest. In general its 6 months- however in the absence of a history of UK employment, bank accounts, utility bills etc- its now becoming the norm to demand 12 months of residency. This is to discourage bankruptcy tourism (Germans availing of the more relaxed UK system are being targetting more so than Irish - however as a percentage of cases- the Irish are catching up quickly).
5. If the Irish person moves back to Ireland- their Irish income may be purloined in part or full for up to 3 years following the declaration. They can claim social welfare etc- however the UK receiver will be assessing their Irish income on UK means scales- aka- if they declare themselves bankrupt in the UK and then come back to Ireland and go on the dole- they could face having to pay the difference between the UK and Irish social welfare rates to the UK receiver for a period of up to 3 years
6. The UK bankruptcy is on the person's Irish credit record for a period of 5 years

Other issues:

The UK bankruptcy covers all UK debt and all unsecured EU debt
It does not cover debt incurred through gambling, carelessness or criminality (I'd love to see how this is defined!)

An example of debt that would not be covered:

Has tax been paid on any rental income?
Is the OP living in the property and claiming TRS?
Is the OP not living in the property and claiming TRS?
Are there any debts outstanding to the Revenue Commissioners as a result of factually incorrect declarations? (I.e. if mortgage relief is still being paid at source and the OP is not resident in the property- and declares himself bankrupt in the UK, his payments of TRS by the Revenue Commissioners are not covered under the UK proceedings).


The OP needs to contact a UK bankruptcy practitioner- the UK authorities are actively doing a crackdown on bankruptcy tourism- and are under a lot of pressure from the German authorities in this respect (about German citizens availing of UK bankruptcy law- not Irish citizens, but the principle holds).

Anyone considering actions such as this- *need* to get professional advice- not the musings of an internet forum.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

That is a lovely wall of text, but last page op said it's not an option, so offtopic crowd could have taken anather handbag shop to settle it. Then op said it got in bank smaller repayments and partly sorted his problem.


And I agree with op, banks need average Joe more then they realise. This time bank made a smart move. It is better to have some money flow from someone in trouble, then have all losses of getting house, then selling it for pennies and lossing alot of money. Who knows, maybe op in few years will sort out his trouble and will be able to repay normal instalments?

Happy for you op.

As for those who plan to dodge dept in Ireland by going abroad... Gl with that as we are in eu.

Hairyass

I actually got a buyer for my house!!!!!!

A buyer put a deposit on my house today. My solicitor is writing to the bank to confirm the offer. They will have it valued to see if the offer is reasonable. If the prices that houses were sold at auction a fortnight ago is anything to go by, they will accept it. The solicitor is asking if the sale price is enough for a full settlement, although I doubt it. There will still be the thick end of 50k owed.

Best case senario, I walk away with nothing.
Worst case, they say the offer isn't enough, if they do, then f**k 'em!
Most likely case, i'm left with a 50k term loan at mortgage intrest rate.