The Leinster Way of Rugby

Quint2010 · 08-05-2011 1:16pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hogwarts?

How did you guess?..:)

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 1:26pm

Donnielighto wrote: »

To say that it is a working man's game isn't right htough, it is nearly all encompassing in munster in terms of social strata and focusing on one, as munster have done does an injustice to others if you dont recognise that it is a marketing ploy.

To be honest, I haven't noticed anything in association with Munster rugby or the marketing therof which suggests it's only for 'working men', or it's only for any particular group. The reality is as I stated it earlier. They are now trying to expand the game geographically around the province, and to all social groups.

Can anyone provide any evidence of this deliberate 'myth-making' regarding who plays rugby, or exclusionary marketing?

Foxtrol · 08-05-2011 1:46pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes, I read what he said. Munster rugby has in the past been primarily a game played in the private schools in Cork, and an everyman's game in Limerick. To say that they created a 'myth' that it is a working man's game ignores the fact that - for one of the twin centres of Munster rugby - it always has been.

Munster rugby being a working mans game is just as much a myth as Leinster Rugby being solely a game for posh rich lads from south dublin. The simple truth is that both sides now have a following in a lot of different demographics throughout their provinces.

I'm not ignoring the fact that it would be more an everyman's game in Limerick, I'm pointing out that if anything the marketing team at Munster have (very cleverly) been the ones ignoring the other side of Munster Rugby. They've been playing up the working class element while pretending that a large proportion of their team and supporters do not come from quite well off backgrounds.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 1:49pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the fact that it would be more an everyman's game in Limerick, I'm pointing out that if anything the marketing team at Munster have (very cleverly) been the ones ignoring the other side of Munster Rugby. They've been playing up the working class element while pretending that a large proportion of their team and supporters do not come from quite well off backgrounds.

I'm going to have to ask you to back that up with some evidence, or I'm going to conclude that this is a wind-up. How in the name of Christ do they play up the 'working-class'-ness of Munster rugby?

Links to videos or pictures of ads would be quite acceptable.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 1:52pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Can anyone provide any evidence of this deliberate 'myth-making' regarding who plays rugby, or exclusionary marketing?

Excellent point, and, I doubt it. Most of that shyte is typed on forums like this to be honest, I guess we are all a little guilty of bitchiness when in front of the keyboard, Gerry Thornley included! I hear all accents at Leinster matches from Wexford, North Dublin to the lads from Louth sitting next to me at the last Munster v Leinster match. We were chatting to a Munster supporter before hand, he was a doctor, his wife had a pic of Johnny Sexton holding her grandson on her phone... So it's all bollix really.

Thornley's article is interesting, he just capped it with a bitchy little title for some reason.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 1:55pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

I hear all accents at Leinster matches from Wexford, North Dublin to the lads from Louth sitting next to me at the last Munster v Leinster match

I'm not surprised. When I lived in Dublin I used to go to the Leinster games, and seemed a lot more interested in Leinster's success than the people around me, at least insofar as I was actually following the game.

wixfjord · 08-05-2011 1:58pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be honest, I haven't noticed anything in association with Munster rugby or the marketing therof which suggests it's only for 'working men', or it's only for any particular group. The reality is as I stated it earlier. They are now trying to expand the game geographically around the province, and to all social groups.

Can anyone provide any evidence of this deliberate 'myth-making' regarding who plays rugby, or exclusionary marketing?

Definitely some element of truth to it though lads. I'm from Wexford, and rugby is still seen in many quarters as a game that posh people and Protestants play. You only have to look at names on the first teams to decipher this.

However, this is changing dramatically in the last 10-15 years, particularly in the younger ranks, and rugby has taken over as the Winter sport for many who see soccer as an awfully boring and terribly dour game, and it's great to see. The more Sean O Briens that come through the better. However, I would say that there could be much more done in schools around the province too.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 2:13pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

at least insofar as I was actually following the game.

You will get that everywhere. Munster, Leinster, Biarritz... to some it's not all about the rugby, it's a family day out, a photo with the team mascot, it's a chance to score, they go for the atmosphere, they go to meet old friends, it's a chance to spend some time with your Da or Ma. It's rugby, not mass!

Foxtrol · 08-05-2011 2:23pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm going to have to ask you to back that up with some evidence, or I'm going to conclude that this is a wind-up. How in the name of Christ do they play up the 'working-class'-ness of Munster rugby?

Links to videos or pictures of ads would be quite acceptable.

Clearly they dont come out with bill boards saying that "Munster - We're Working Class", but it has been built up as a myth for years through the the Munster Brand. The best way to build a brand is subconsciously and Munster have done that extremely well over the years. This has obviously been assisted by the media and players (current and ex) who have helped build the narrative that Munster is a working mans team.

If you want an example just look at the Thomond Park video someone linked earlier and listen to the phraseology and watch the images used and honestly tell me that it doesn't play up the "working-class-ness" while ignoring the upper-class element of Munster Rugby.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 2:27pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Clearly they dont come out with bill boards saying that "Munster - We're Working Class", but it has been built up as a myth for years through the the Munster Brand.

Well I must be pretty dumb, because I never got that message at all. I got a more 'rugby is for everyone' vibe. And bear in mind the people in the team that you might characterise as 'upper class' include ROG, Strings, POC, MOD, TOL and various others. Not exactly Lord Snooty types, are they? And that's what most of the products of the CBC and PBC are like - they are a different breed to the Blackrock/Gonzaga/what have you lads.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 2:41pm

Double post, apologies.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 2:42pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

they are a different breed to the Blackrock/Gonzaga/what have you lads.

They are all rugby players Monty, brothers, uncles, sons, friends etc.. they happen to get on very well with each other too despite being what you bizarrely describe as "different breeds" please stop turning this in to a Leinster Munster thing, you are doing exactly what I said people do behind their keyboards earlier on in the thread.

The article is about Leinsters marketing. I just pointed out that Munster have an more powerful marketing machine. Probably the best in Europe.

..."what have you lads"... what the hell does that mean?

roycon · 08-05-2011 2:51pm

wixfjord wrote: »

Definitely some element of truth to it though lads. I'm from Wexford, and rugby is still seen in many quarters as a game that posh people and Protestants play. You only have to look at names on the first teams to decipher this.

However, this is changing dramatically in the last 10-15 years, particularly in the younger ranks, and rugby has taken over as the Winter sport for many who see soccer as an awfully boring and terribly dour game, and it's great to see. The more Sean O Briens that come through the better. However, I would say that there could be much more done in schools around the province too.

what names? on the first team theres no one protestant in the entire leinster squad as far as i know except for mckinley

Blut2 · 08-05-2011 2:52pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well I must be pretty dumb, because I never got that message at all. I got a more 'rugby is for everyone' vibe. And bear in mind the people in the team that you might characterise as 'upper class' include ROG, Strings, POC, MOD, TOL and various others. Not exactly Lord Snooty types, are they? And that's what most of the products of the CBC and PBC are like - they are a different breed to the Blackrock/Gonzaga/what have you lads.

How is ROG a different breed to BOD, for example? I'd hardly say either is a "Lord Snooty type" but both are definitely middle class, theyre just from different (middle class) parts of the country and their accents reflect this.

I heard someone with a heavy working class Dublin accent on one of the Dublin radio stations the other day talking about being a big Leinster fan and it really surprised me. Would never have imagined hearing an accent like that at a Leinster game 5 or 10 years ago. Kudos to the Leinster team's growth strategies is all I can say, theyre really doing well expanding the brand/support for the team into areas outside of the DART line.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 2:53pm

roycon wrote: »

what names? on the first team theres no one protestant in the entire leinster squad as far as i know except for mckinley

Hi Roycon, I'm pretty sure Wixfjord meant the game is perceived as a posh, protestants game in certain parts of where he lives, he wasn't stating it was!

jolley123 · 08-05-2011 2:54pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

they are a different breed to the Blackrock/Gonzaga/what have you lads.

Ugh, don't you just hate those guys.Those damn Brian O'Driscolls, Luke Fitzgeralds, Leo Cullens, Kevin McLaughlins, Dominic Ryans etc. WHat a horrible breed of Lord Snootys!:rolleyes:

roycon · 08-05-2011 2:55pm

hi rambo
he said
'You only have to look at names on the first teams to decipher this'
does he mean fitzgerald and darcy

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 2:56pm

roycon wrote: »

hi rambo
he said
'You only have to look at names on the first teams to decipher this'
does he mean fitzgerald and darcy

Fairnough!

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 2:58pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

They are all rugby players Monty, brothers, uncles, sons, friends etc.. they happen to get on very well with each other too despite being what you bizarrely describe as "different breeds" please stop turning this in to a Leinster Munster thing, you are doing exactly what I said people do behind their keyboards earlier on in the thread.

There has been an assertion on this thread that Munster marketing has created a myth that Munster rugby is an everyman's game. It is not a myth. That is all.

John_Rambo wrote: »

..."what have you lads"... what the hell does that mean?

'What have you' is a commonly used informal term for 'et cetera'.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:03pm

Blut2 wrote: »

How is ROG a different breed to BOD, for example?

I'm not stating that they are different types of people in reality: I am trying to simplify things to the level that someone who has not lived in diffferent parts of Ireland can understand. Someone who expects a middle-class person to sound like a product of certain Dublin private schools may hear one of the aforementioned Munster players and think that he is not 'middle class' (although I'm not really comfortable with labelling people like that). And they might then leap to the foolish conclusion that Munster are pushing forward a 'working class' image of the game in Munster, rather than the all-inclusive image they in fact rely on.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 3:03pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

There has been an assertion on this thread that Munster marketing has created a myth that Munster rugby is an everyman's game. It is not a myth. That is all

If Munsters image is that of an everymans team, what do you mean by Munster players being a different breed to that of lads that went to certain schools? Surely Paul O'Connel and Brian O'Driscol are comtemporaries, both young Irish, well educated, professional rugby players from middle class backgrounds. What do you consider a Lord Snooty? Is this down to people accents?

Edit... you answered my question... It's down to accents then.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:06pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Edit... you answered my question... It's down to accents then.

It's down to certain people hearing a middle-class Cork accent and not understanding that it is middle-class. That's all.

08-05-2011 3:06pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well I must be pretty dumb, because I never got that message at all. I got a more 'rugby is for everyone' vibe. And bear in mind the people in the team that you might characterise as 'upper class' include ROG, Strings, POC, MOD, TOL and various others. Not exactly Lord Snooty types, are they? And that's what most of the products of the CBC and PBC are like - they are a different breed to the Blackrock/Gonzaga/what have you lads.

Can I interject before this goes off on a mad tangent?

I think that these type of comparisons are never valid, simply because every sport has this exact same "problem". Guys who play Hurling for Dublin are a "different breed" to the lads who play Hurling for Tipperary. Guys who play Gaelic Football for Kerry are a "different breed" from those who play for Tyrone.

Imagine that, the place you come from affects you in your development as a person. You can't take that away from a game, its life.

What Leinster have aimed to do over the course of the past few years and are continuing to do so is to widen the net, get the game spreading right out to the boundaries of the province, but it's not a quick fix, it will take 10 years minimum imo to see the distribution of players even out across the province. Obviously the fact that Dublin is a massive city in the province means that statistically, there will be far more representatives from Dublin than from anywhere else, but the main thing that Leinster Rugby have been pushing is that there are no barriers for anyone to encounter to play for them.

I've been to Leinster underage games where there were 3 lads doing lift shares from Wexford to get to the 5 training sessions each week. The team trained out in Greystones once they noticed this, to try to "share the burden" of the commute.

It's little things like this that add up though, Leinster will never lose the "D4" brigade, much in the same way that Ireland will never lose the "Drunken Irishman" tag, but what they're doing is to create a far more encompassing atmosphere and club, and that's to be applauded.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can I interject before this goes off on a mad tangent?

Too late. The distinction I was making has already been clarified.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 3:12pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Too late. The distinction I was making has already been clarified.

Yep! Clear as crystal.

Leinster supporters and players are not all from D4.

Munster supporters and players are not all working class men from Limerick.

durkadurka · 08-05-2011 3:13pm

It helps when most of the counties of Leinster are represented on the team too.

Longford, leitrem, offaly Westmeath and Kilkenny are not represented as far as i can think although someone will come on and correct me no doubt.

Podge_irl · 08-05-2011 3:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's little things like this that add up though, Leinster will never lose the "D4" brigade, much in the same way that Ireland will never lose the "Drunken Irishman" tag, but what they're doing is to create a far more encompassing atmosphere and club, and that's to be applauded.

I think it's important to point out that they shouldn't lose it either. The D4 brigade are supporters just like anyone else. Leinster have managed to expand their support in an inclusive way, not be denigrating what was their base support for a long time.

roycon · 08-05-2011 3:13pm

this thread is a joke and has nothing to do with the article.

irishbucsfan · 08-05-2011 3:13pm

Donnielighto wrote: »

How do you see it as being pretentious? Promotion is grand as long as it doesn't come with arrogance.

Because the "Leinster Way" of actually playing rugby (the important stuff) has been hugely shaped by Michael Cheika, Johnno Gibbes, Kurt McQuilkan and Joe Schmidt. What part of Leinster are they from?

I have no problem with promotion at all. I just don't like the term "Leinster Way" just as I didn't like whole "Greatest Fans in the World" thing Munster tried out (which made them look a bit soft when Munster fans all started walking out on their team every time Leinster thrashed them! :P ).

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:14pm

roycon wrote: »

this thread is a joke and has nothing to do with the article.

Good contribution.

jolley123 · 08-05-2011 3:15pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

the urban myth that they managed to generate that rugby is a working mans game in Munster

Monty Burnz wrote: »

There has been an assertion on this thread that Munster marketing has created a myth that Munster rugby is an everyman's game. It is not a myth. That is all.

Foxtrol never mentioned rugby in Munster being an everyman's game as a myth. He stated that rugby in Munster being a working-class game is a myth.

So in essence, the two of you are in agreement. Which makes this whole thing even more laughable.

Podge_irl · 08-05-2011 3:16pm

durkadurka wrote: »

It helps when most of the counties of Leinster are represented on the team too.

There's 12 counties though and well over half the population is from Dublin and it's environs. It would be nice but not very realistic.

wixfjord · 08-05-2011 3:16pm

roycon wrote: »

what names? on the first team theres no one protestant in the entire leinster squad as far as i know except for mckinley

The names on teams down here I meant.

08-05-2011 3:16pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because the "Leinster Way" of actually playing rugby (the important stuff) has been hugely shaped by Michael Cheika, Johnno Gibbes, Kurt McQuilkan and Joe Schmidt. What part of Leinster are they from?

I have no problem with promotion at all. I just don't like the term "Leinster Way" just as I didn't like whole "Greatest Fans in the World" thing Munster tried out (which made them look a bit soft when Munster fans all started walking out on their team every time Leinster thrashed them! :P ).

Ah yeah, but "The Leinster Way" is just Thornley using some Poetic License and waffleolgy to sauce up a fairly decent summary of the "behind the scenes" of Leinster Rugby "LTD".

So long as it doesn't catch on, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't like it either though tbh.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 3:17pm

roycon wrote: »

this thread is a joke and has nothing to do with the article.

It does, and if it didn't, so what? It's an interesting debate about the two big rivals that hasn't turned in to a total bitchfest.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 3:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah yeah, but "The Leinster Way" is just Thornley using some Poetic License and waffleolgy to sauce up a fairly decent summary of the "behind the scenes" of Leinster Rugby "LTD".

That's exactly what I meant to say all along.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:20pm

jolley123 wrote: »

Foxtrol never mentioned rugby in Munster being an everyman's game as a myth. He stated that rugby in Munster being a working-class game is a myth.

So in essence, the two of you are in agreement. Which makes this whole thing even more laughable.

Well, no. In the statement you quote, I should have said 'working-man'. And what we are arguing about is whether this was a myth created by Munster's marketing department.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:20pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

It does, and if it didn't, so what? It's an interesting debate about the two big rivals that hasn't turned in to a total bitchfest.

Give it a minute

roycon · 08-05-2011 3:23pm

monty you decided to bring in class and school. this is a rugby thread not sociology

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:25pm

roycon wrote: »

monty you decided to bring in class and school. this is a rugby thread not sociology

Um, I think you'll find I was replying to a post....ah never mind, read the thread again, you might figure it out.

irishbucsfan · 08-05-2011 3:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah yeah, but "The Leinster Way" is just Thornley using some Poetic License and waffleolgy to sauce up a fairly decent summary of the "behind the scenes" of Leinster Rugby "LTD".

So long as it doesn't catch on, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't like it either though tbh.

Good stuff. For some reason I thought he was quoting someone on the marketing team in the article. Dunno why.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 3:48pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Good stuff. For some reason I thought he was quoting someone on the marketing team in the article. Dunno why.

Let's hope someone in the Leinster PR department doesn't read it and think, 'hey, great idea!'...

Foxtrol · 08-05-2011 4:47pm

jolley123 wrote: »

Foxtrol never mentioned rugby in Munster being an everyman's game as a myth. He stated that rugby in Munster being a working-class game is a myth.

So in essence, the two of you are in agreement. Which makes this whole thing even more laughable.

This all seems to have degenerated very quickly. If you look back to my original post in the thread I was responding to David900 who stated that the Munster Brand was better than the Leinster Brand because the Leinster Brand was playing up to a lot of stereo types. I've a bit marketing experience and was trying to point out how I thought they were both doing good jobs but also the differences I saw in the marketing strategy and specifically the target market of the two Brands; Munster aiming at a lot of current GAA fans while Leinster are trying to grow their market outwards (by focusing a lot of the time at the younger market) while being very mindful of not alienating its old market. In essence Munster were playing up to their sterotype while Leinster were trying to show that their sterotype shouldnt put off the rest of the province from supporting their team.

The difference between me & Monty came about on whether or not Munsters marketing goes out of its way to play up to the narrative of the club as being a working mans team. My opinion was that though they dont come out with blatant advertising they cleverly and subtlety do their best to lean opinion towards them being a salt of the earth, working mans team while ignoring the remainder.

I didn't mean to turn this into a Munster/Leinster thing but it seems that you cant even compare the two without getting peoples backs up.

Monty Burnz · 08-05-2011 5:16pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

The difference between me & Monty came about on whether or not Munsters marketing goes out of its way to play up to the narrative of the club as being a working mans team. My opinion was that though they dont come out with blatant advertising they cleverly and subtlety do their best to lean opinion towards them being a salt of the earth, working mans team while ignoring the remainder.

I didn't mean to turn this into a Munster/Leinster thing but it seems that you cant even compare the two without getting peoples backs up.

That's the difficulty with forum messages - half the time I looked back at my posts and wasn't happy with what I wrote, but you can't change it after people pick up on what you said.

errlloyd · 08-05-2011 7:14pm

I don't think you can in any way put down Munster's success as a brand to marketing. Like they beat the ****ing all blacks, its a working class sport, the men are cult heroes and gods and Limerick is a much smaller place then Dublin. Arguably in Dublin Rugby has an almost negative image to the majority of people. Its a posh sport, confined to D4.

A poster mentioned Leinster not reaching out earlier on, this is exactly what he was saying. I dunno how you fix that problem. Get Joe Schmit to coach some community college to a Senior Cup? Last time a state school won it was 1985 De Le Salle Churchtown right?

I think Leinster is a much harder brand to promote, and I think blue magic has been pretty effective in promoting it.

John_Rambo · 08-05-2011 7:20pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

but you can't change it after people pick up on what you said.

Yeah, I picked you up wrong for a while, but I see where you are coming from. In the end I think Foxtrol has it bang on the nail there.

wixfjord · 08-05-2011 7:23pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't think you can in any way put down Munster's success as a brand to marketing. Like they beat the ****ing all blacks, its a working class sport, the men are cult heroes and gods and Limerick is a much smaller place then Dublin. Arguably in Dublin Rugby has an almost negative image to the majority of people. Its a posh sport, confined to D4.

A poster mentioned Leinster not reaching out earlier on, this is exactly what he was saying. I dunno how you fix that problem. Get Joe Schmit to coach some community college to a Senior Cup? Last time a state school won it was 1985 De Le Salle Churchtown right?

I think Leinster is a much harder brand to promote, and I think blue magic has been pretty effective in promoting it.

No no no. That's perhaps what it was percieved as, but what we're saying is that, down to success, reaching out, and the success of the marketing, you're now seeing huge growth in non-traditional areas, albeit slowly.

danthefan · 08-05-2011 7:56pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't think you can in any way put down Munster's success as a brand to marketing. Like they beat the ****ing all blacks, its a working class sport, the men are cult heroes and gods and Limerick is a much smaller place then Dublin. Arguably in Dublin Rugby has an almost negative image to the majority of people. Its a posh sport, confined to D4.

A poster mentioned Leinster not reaching out earlier on, this is exactly what he was saying. I dunno how you fix that problem. Get Joe Schmit to coach some community college to a Senior Cup? Last time a state school won it was 1985 De Le Salle Churchtown right?

I think Leinster is a much harder brand to promote, and I think blue magic has been pretty effective in promoting it.

Seems you've been taken in by the marketing and you don't even realise it.

08-05-2011 9:12pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't think you can in any way put down Munster's success as a brand to marketing. Like they beat the ****ing all blacks, its a working class sport, the men are cult heroes and gods and Limerick is a much smaller place then Dublin. Arguably in Dublin Rugby has an almost negative image to the majority of people. Its a posh sport, confined to D4.

A poster mentioned Leinster not reaching out earlier on, this is exactly what he was saying. I dunno how you fix that problem. Get Joe Schmit to coach some community college to a Senior Cup? Last time a state school won it was 1985 De Le Salle Churchtown right?

I think Leinster is a much harder brand to promote, and I think blue magic has been pretty effective in promoting it.

Where have you been for the last 10 years? Thems backwards views son.

wixfjord · 08-05-2011 9:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Where have you been for the last 10 years? Thems backwards views son.

We don't take kindly to yore type round here!

The Leinster Way of Rugby

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