Circus for the school trip??

Froggy7

Hello all, I am facing a bit of a dilemma: my kids (ages 10 and 6) came back with a note from the school saying that this year's summer outing is a trip to the circus. I love the circus... but only the ones with acrobats, performers and... without wild animals! Which, unfortunately, is the case for the circus chosen by the school.

I know there has been great progress in recent years to ensure animals are treated better in captivity (circus and zoos) around Europe, but I've always avoided them out of principle: wild animals are simply unhappy in captivity and should be left in the wild, where they belong - with the exception of natural reserves where they can be protected in a pretence of semi-freedom-. No matter how good, professional and loving their handlers can be, circus is just a golden prison for these poor creatures. This is a decision that I took myself when I was about 10 years old, my son's age.

My kids know my position about that issue; they've seen circuses come and go in the town... from afar. I bring them to the theatre, cinema, festivals instead... but I don't know if I should maybe let them experience it for themselves at least once, so they can see what I am opposed to. And also I don't want to make them miss out on the experience of going out with all their friends...

In either case, I will explain to the school why I'm strongly opposed to exotic animals in circuses, but if I let my kids go, that makes me a bit of a hypocrite, doesn't it?

What do you think?

Morag

I suggest you talk to the principal about it and if you can't get it resolved then if it were me and my kids given the ethics, I wouldn't let them go. I would take the kids of to do something else and lodge a letter of objection to the selection of the trip to the circus with the board of management.

Orion

I agree entirely. Circus animals are kept in small cages - they have to be by nature of the circus. And they do not exist for our amusement.

I would not let my children go on that trip on principle. I would explain to them the reasons in such as way that they would understand. I would refuse the school permission to bring them and detail my objections to it - Get the PA involved in this also. I would also make sure to send them to school on that day - the school would have to accommodate them. It would help to drive home the point.

Then from the childrens' point of view make sure to bring them on a treat to make up for it. While they may understand the reasons behind not going they are still kids and if you substitute something else they'll be delighted. At the weekend take them to another circus, movie, pet farm, etc. Something they want to do. It will make up for missing the trip and act as positive reinforcement too.

silja

Agree with the others. I would not let my kids go, and instead do something really fun with them on the same day.

cocokay

i agree with the others and actually can't believe that after all the publicity ann the elephant recently got that a school would support something like this! its 2011 people, wtf?!

planetX

I would hate it too - and luckily I know my child would refuse to go. We've seen cruelty just passing by the camp, so he knows exactly what the circus is all about.
Besides we both hate clowns. I would make my views known to the school if I were you.

nesf

Sharrow wrote: »

I would take the kids of to do something else and lodge a letter of objection to the selection of the trip to the circus with the board of management.

I think that is way over the top. It's not generally objectionable to take kids to the circus.

Orion

I disagree. She's talking about lodging an objection not making a formal complaint. The BoM has to approve all external trips so it's reasonable to lodge the objection with them as the governing body of the school. The objection is not to a circus trip - it's to this circus for a specific reason.

spurious

I would lodge an objection and suggest an alternative trip.

Froggy7

Thanks all for your comments. I had a chat with my kids and sent a letter to the principal (who wrote the letter about the circus) explaining my position and I included some documentation.

I am due to talk to her tomorrow... she left me a message on my phone saying she feels bad about their choice of outing and she never realised what type of circus it was. I think she said she'll be looking at alternatives, but I'm not sure as the line was bad.

I don't want to rock the boat too much because all the staff in this school are absolute gems and they do a terriffic work, always placing the kids first, listening to parents, etc. But I hope my reaction might have at least made them aware of the issue.

Voicing my concerns and taking my kids to another outing is probably the most I will do; I do not want to go into formal complaints with agroup of hard-working people. Really, the real problem is Ireland being slow to follow on banning these types of circus (30 countries have already done it!) and the most outrageous is when you see that these types of circus receive huge grants from the Arts Council!!! While other very talented, small circuses presenting only human acts are struggling and disappearing...

seriouslysweet

I am probably going to be killed for saying this but I would let me children make up their own mind and respect their decision. More than likely they'll agree with you.

mariaf24

I agree with you 100%, I find animals in circus' absolutely horrifying. I don't even want to think about how they are treated

But i'm going to disagree with everyone else here and advise you not to stop your children going. They are only children and i think it would be terrible to exclude them from the school tour...they will see all the other kids leaving and have to listen to kids go on about it for days after, perhaps even writing essays etc on the school tour.

I think you were right to approach the principal. I'm glad you voiced your beliefs about the circus (Although im not sure id believe that she didint know what type of circus it was). So i would put it in writing that you find a circus to be a poor choice for a school tour as you do not agree with wild animals being caged and treated so poorly to 'perform' for human entertainmemt and you are sorry that your children have to witness this.You might be lucky and they might seek a new tour or it may be the last time they will choose a circus.

You can also tell your children that you are 100% against these circus' and ask them not to support them in the future.
But i really think preventing them from going is unfair on the children to be honest...

ppink

mariaf24 wrote: »

I agree with you 100%, I find animals in circus' absolutely horrifying. I don't even want to think about how they are treated

But i'm going to disagree with everyone else here and advise you not to stop your children going. They are only children and i think it would be terrible to exclude them from the school tour...they will see all the other kids leaving and have to listen to kids go on about it for days after, perhaps even writing essays etc on the school tour.

I think you were right to approach the principal. I'm glad you voiced your beliefs about the circus (Although im not sure id believe that she didint know what type of circus it was). So i would put it in writing that you find a circus to be a poor choice for a school tour as you do not agree with wild animals being caged and treated so poorly to 'perform' for human entertainmemt and you are sorry that your children have to witness this.You might be lucky and they might seek a new tour or it may be the last time they will choose a circus.

You can also tell your children that you are 100% against these circus' and ask them not to support them in the future.
But i really think preventing them from going is unfair on the children to be honest...

Letting kids follow like sheep to the circus is hardly a good idea. is it not a parent's no 1 priority to bring up their family with good morals and ethics and also teaching them that they can stand out from the crowd and dont need to follow others?

OP has done the right thing and I hope the principal follows suit

mariaf24

ppink wrote: »

Letting kids follow like sheep to the circus is hardly a good idea. is it not a parent's no 1 priority to bring up their family with good morals and ethics and also teaching them that they can stand out from the crowd and dont need to follow others?

OP has done the right thing and I hope the principal follows suit

Fair point but i'm just putting myself back when i was in school and i would be furious if i was the one child not going. The OP objecting to principal i think is enough. And beter still if you could get a few more parents on board...

tigerblob

Perhaps you could do what my mother did. I was about eight and the circus was in town and I wanted to go, so she drove me in beforehand to see the elephant which was enclosed outdoors. It looked old and sad and sick, and she explained that it can't be very happy in captivity like this. She told me I could go to the circus if I still wanted to, but I decided that I didn't want to

kippy

I have to ask a very obvious question.
Do the same people who object to trips to the circus on "potential" animal cruelty grounds object to visits to the aquarium, pet farm and zoo, as well as object to the keeping of pets by families?


While I dont see an issue with a parent not wanting their kids to go support a circus that MAY have a poor record in relation to animal care, to go and actively make a formal complaint about it (because that is what you are going to do) is a bit over the top in my opinion - especially when it is so difficult to organise a trip for kids nowadays due to the multitude of over the top health and safety regulations.
It's not right to potentially jeopardise the trip for the rest of the class - as I am sure letters will cause some discussion and possible cancellation when a quiet word to the people who organised it would suffice.

ppink

kippy wrote: »

I have to ask a very obvious question.
Do the same people who object to trips to the circus on "potential" animal cruelty grounds object to visits to the aquarium, pet farm and zoo, as well as object to the keeping of pets by families?


While I dont see an issue with a parent not wanting their kids to go support a circus that MAY have a poor record in relation to animal care, to go and actively make a formal complaint about it (because that is what you are going to do) is a bit over the top in my opinion - especially when it is so difficult to organise a trip for kids nowadays due to the multitude of over the top health and safety regulations.
It's not right to potentially jeopardise the trip for the rest of the class - as I am sure letters will cause some discussion and possible cancellation when a quiet word to the people who organised it would suffice.

I dont go to zoos or aquariums or pet farms but farm animals are generally classed as domesticated anyway.
i dont mind standard pets like the domesticated ones but I do not believe any wild animals should be kept in small confines. no problem with some safari parks.......basically where the animals are kept in similar circumstances to the wild.

It is bananas to allow your kids to go in case it may jeopardise others going. Circuses with animals are a small step up from freak shows.

kippy

ppink wrote: »

I dont go to zoos or aquariums or pet farms but farm animals are generally classed as domesticated anyway.
i dont mind standard pets like the domesticated ones but I do not believe any wild animals should be kept in small confines. no problem with some safari parks.......basically where the animals are kept in similar circumstances to the wild.

It is bananas to allow your kids to go in case it may jeopardise others going. Circuses with animals are a small step up from freak shows.

I wasn't asking that the OP let their kids go just to ensure the trip goes ahead for anyone - but instead not to write a letter of complaint bringing everyone including the board of management into it. A word in the ear of the organiser as to why you are not letting your kids go would suffice. A letter could and probably will cause far more wide reaching issues.

Its great that you dont visit those places - at least your views are somewhat consistent.

Orion

kippy wrote: »

I have to ask a very obvious question.
Do the same people who object to trips to the circus on "potential" animal cruelty grounds object to visits to the aquarium, pet farm and zoo, as well as object to the keeping of pets by families?

I go to the zoo and to pet farms. They are not comparable to caged animals in a circus.

Circuses that have wild animals caged don't necessarily treat them cruelly. But they are kept in conditions that are unsuitable for the animals and display them purely for entertainment.

Zoos perform a vital function in breeding programs to prevent animals becoming extinct. They do their best to provide a conducive environment suitable to the wellbeing of the animals. The zookeepers first concern is for the animals not the public entertainment. E.g. I witnessed a group of morons in the zoo one time complaining that a particular section was closed as the birds in it were in mating season and very private about it. They were told in no uncertain terms that they were way down the pecking order. (pun intended).

Pet farms are made up of domesticated and farmed animals. They are well looked after and again no comparison to circus animals.

Pet keeping again is domestication. I would despise someone who mistreated any animal - their own pet or otherwise. The majority of pets are very well looked after. In my back garden I have 4 hens and 1 rabbit (all of whom are great friends) and in the house a finch and a canary. I don't see this as conflicting with my objection to permanently caged wild animals travelling with a circus.

Orion

kippy wrote: »

but instead not to write a letter of complaint bringing everyone including the board of management into it. A word in the ear of the organiser as to why you are not letting your kids go would suffice. A letter could and probably will cause far more wide reaching issues.

Froggy7 wrote: »

I do not want to go into formal complaints with agroup of hard-working people.

Nobody suggested making a formal complaint. Lodging an objection is not the same as making a complaint. The organiser is the school and the BoM had to approve it. Hence the suggestion to get them involved. It's all about awareness not causing trouble.

kippy wrote: »

Its great that you dont visit those places - at least your views are somewhat consistent.

I don't particularly like this insinuation. See my previous post and try to compare apples with apples not lions with chickens.

kippy

Macros42 wrote: »

I go to the zoo and to pet farms. They are not comparable to caged animals in a circus.

Circuses that have wild animals caged don't necessarily treat them cruelly. But they are kept in conditions that are unsuitable for the animals and display them purely for entertainment.

Zoos perform a vital function in breeding programs to prevent animals becoming extinct. They do their best to provide a conducive environment suitable to the wellbeing of the animals. The zookeepers first concern is for the animals not the public entertainment. E.g. I witnessed a group of morons in the zoo one time complaining that a particular section was closed as the birds in it were in mating season and very private about it. They were told in no uncertain terms that they were way down the pecking order. (pun intended).

Pet farms are made up of domesticated and farmed animals. They are well looked after and again no comparison to circus animals.

Pet keeping again is domestication. I would despise someone who mistreated any animal - their own pet or otherwise. The majority of pets are very well looked after. In my back garden I have 4 hens and 1 rabbit (all of whom are great friends) and in the house a finch and a canary. I don't see this as conflicting with my objection to permanently caged wild animals travelling with a circus.

Farm Animals:
http://animal-lib.org.au/subjects/animals-for-food/22-chickens-battery.html
http://www.peta.org/features/crestview-turkey-investigation.aspx
http://www.dspca.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=802

While I dont disagree with your main points - humans have kept animals caged/not in the wild for years - the only reason animals are domisticated is because they have been held by humans for many generations.

My MAIN issue with this is the letter of complaint - potentially jeopardising the whole trip. Again, I dont necessarily have a problem with people having an issue with some or indeed all circus'.

kippy

Macros42 wrote: »

Nobody suggested making a formal complaint. Lodging an objection is not the same as making a complaint. The organiser is the school and the BoM had to approve it. Hence the suggestion to get them involved. It's all about awareness not causing trouble.


I don't particularly like this insinuation. See my previous post and try to compare apples with apples not lions with chickens.

Lodging and objection, as any person on a board of management will tell you, is as good as lodging a complaint. It has to be discussed and it may result in the trip being called off - dependent on the people involved.

To me, there's not much of a jump between circus animals and caged chickens/turkeys and indeed the keeping of dogs/cats in confined areas without any exercise.

We've gone ridiculously PC in this country in the past 10-20 years - while some if it was required it is beginning to take the biscuit at this stage.

The insinuation is fair in my opinion. Many people pick and chose parts of animal welfare to disagree with while forgetting about the more obvious ones.

Orion

kippy wrote: »

Farm Animals:
http://animal-lib.org.au/subjects/animals-for-food/22-chickens-battery.html
http://www.peta.org/features/crestview-turkey-investigation.aspx
http://www.dspca.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=802

While I dont disagree with your main points - humans have kept animals caged/not in the wild for years - the only reason animals are domisticated is because they have been held by humans for many generations.
.

Sometime I hate when I'm right. I knew in my waters that there was a peta post coming but you trumped that and included animal liberation too. Good work. :rolleyes:

My MAIN issue with this is the letter of complaint - potentially jeopardising the whole trip. Again, I dont necessarily have a problem with people having an issue with some or indeed all circus'

Once again - nobody suggested a complaint - merely an objection. If it means the trip is cancelled and an alternative takes place then that's good as far as I'm concerned. The school could even have a whole discussion and project about it and turn cancelling the circus trip into a positive exercise about environment awareness and animal rights.

kippy

Macros42 wrote: »

Sometime I hate when I'm right. I knew in my waters that there was a peta post coming but you trumped that and included animal liberation too. Good work. :rolleyes:



Once again - nobody suggested a complaint - merely an objection. If it means the trip is cancelled and an alternative takes place then that's good as far as I'm concerned. The school could even have a whole discussion and project about it and turn cancelling the circus trip into a positive exercise about environment awareness and animal rights.

Nice smiley face thingy....

Just making the point that theres a lot of stuff out there that we tend to "forget"/ not care enough about.
Environment awareness and animal rights? You'll have the kids coming home vegans with a fear of meat - deal with that one parents....

Orion

kippy wrote: »

Lodging and objection, as any person on a board of management will tell you, is as good as lodging a complaint. It has to be discussed and it may result in the trip being called off - dependent on the people involved.

Have you been on one? Because I have. And an objection to something and a formal complaint are two completely different things.

To me, there's not much of a jump between circus animals and caged chickens/turkeys and indeed the keeping of dogs/cats in confined areas without any exercise.
...
The insinuation is fair in my opinion. Many people pick and chose parts of animal welfare to disagree with while forgetting about the more obvious ones.

Some people do. And some people are quite blinkered. It is possible to keep pets without mistreating them. Comparing keeping chickens is not the same as caging a lion or tethering an elephant. And once again I don't like the insinuation of hypocrisy. I am totally opposed to animal cruelty and mis-treatment. I do not see keeping pets and looking after them as contradictory to that. Implying it is is just peta bull**** tbh.

kippy wrote: »

Environment awareness and animal rights? You'll have the kids coming home vegans with a fear of meat - deal with that one parents....

Now I'm starting to suspect you're just trolling. I'm done discussing this with you.

kippy

Macros42 wrote: »

Have you been on one? Because I have. And an objection to something and a formal complaint are two completely different things.


Some people do. And some people are quite blinkered. It is possible to keep pets without mistreating them. Comparing keeping chickens is not the same as caging a lion or tethering an elephant. And once again I don't like the insinuation of hypocrisy. I am totally opposed to animal cruelty and mis-treatment. I do not see keeping pets and looking after them as contradictory to that. Implying it is is just peta bull**** tbh.

As of yet I have not been on a board of management - I have a wife who has however. She has been on two different schools one and the handling of any letter from a parent is was dependant on the people on the board and how they themselves reacted to it. One school would take an objection VERY seriously - the other, not so much.
Its possible to keep animals without mistreating them but is keeping them in the first place not mistreating them apart from the fact that we have become accustomed to it?

Listen, I amnt PETA or into any of that nonsense just trying to highlight one or two things. I realise there is a big difference in some peoples minds between pets and caged wild animals.

I don't troll and don't appreciate the allegation being thrown at me.......
Thanks for the conversation.

Ayla

OP - I say fair play to you sticking up for your beliefs & having the guts to do something about it. I agree w/ you about your repulsion of the care some circus animals are kept in - it's inhumane and horribly cruel, and it's the reason I won't attend circuses either.

Although I won't take it as far, I agree w/ some of what Kippy's said. That's the part about the meat...just as it's inhumane to tether an elephant for human entertainment, it is also inhumane to cage millions of animals in horrible conditions to produce meat.

So OP, it's great you feel the way you do, and you should use this experience to teach your children about considerate animal care. Take it one step further and recognize the meat you eat for what it is.

Orion

kippy wrote: »

I don't troll and don't appreciate the allegation being thrown at me.......
Thanks for the conversation.

Some of your points have been partially contradictory. You quoted PETA and Animal Lib - two extremist organisations. But fair enough - you're trying to make a point. I still disagree with you but I withdraw the troll comment.

kippy

Macros42 wrote: »

Some of your points have been partially contradictory. You quoted PETA and Animal Lib - two extremist organisations. But fair enough - you're trying to make a point. I still disagree with you but I withdraw the troll comment.

Thanks,
They are at the extreme end of the spectrum but what they speak about does go on. If you take Animal rights to the nth you will end up with a pretty extremist view.
Have made my point so will avoid posting on the thread again.
OP, best of luck with whatever route you take.

planetX

kippy wrote: »

Thanks,
They are at the extreme end of the spectrum but what they speak about does go on. If you take Animal rights to the nth you will end up with a pretty extremist view.
Have made my point so will avoid posting on the thread again.
OP, best of luck with whatever route you take.

Take your argument in the other direction - and because you allow zoos you must allow circus cruelty, so you might as well allow dogfighting and bearbaiting.
Why shouldn't people take a stand at the particular point they feel strongly about. Anyone is perfectly entitled to object to the disgraceful living conditions and treatment of wild animals in a circus, even if they're not vegetarians. Your argument is a red herring.

parsi

If the OP doesn't agree with circuses then that is their call and there is nothing wrong with letting the organiser know that.

However that does raise the greater issue - is it just particular situations where there may be animal husbandry concerns that get opposed ? What about battery hens ? Battery piggeries ? Are these also going to be condemned and maybe lunchboxes trawled through to ensure that other children don't have products from those areas ?

It may seem extreme but you can't be a la carte about the whole thing. Some other parent may feel extremely strongly about the whole meat issue and bend the ear of the BOM to ensure that meat isn't allowed.