Willow and Miscanthus - opinions please?

boatbuilder

Hi,
I have 11 acres of land that I have been renting out up to now. However, I'd like to take a bit more ownership of it and do something constructive with it.
Unfortunately I have no farming machinery at all.

The land is good land...usually hay or silage made each summer on it and just grazed with cattle the rest of the time...it had sheep on it for years as well.


What are people's opinions on growing willow or miscanthus for biofuel?
Are there any risks? Farrelly willow predict a yearly net profit of €214 per acre (€214 x11 acres = €2354). I'm getting €850 for renting it at the moment.
Seems like a bit of a no-brainer, but also sounds a bit too good to be true.
Is there a catch?

reilig

There's no catch really.

But it is dependent on where your farm is located???

Are you close to contractors with willow planting and harvesting equipment??

Also - 11 acres might be a very small plot for a contractor to plant or harvest.

There is quite a large investment required in order to get the willow established and it can be a couple of years before you would get a saleable harvest - but after that its plain sailing.
I'm not able to tell you if there are any establishment grants available but perhaps someone more informed could??

boatbuilder wrote: »

Hi,
I have 11 acres of land that I have been renting out up to now. However, I'd like to take a bit more ownership of it and do something constructive with it.
Unfortunately I have no farming machinery at all.

The land is good land...usually hay or silage made each summer on it and just grazed with cattle the rest of the time...it had sheep on it for years as well.


What are people's opinions on growing willow or miscanthus for biofuel?
Are there any risks? Farrelly willow predict a yearly net profit of €214 per acre (€214 x11 acres = €2354). I'm getting €850 for renting it at the moment.
Seems like a bit of a no-brainer, but also sounds a bit too good to be true.
Is there a catch?

niallf

Boatbuilder,

There is a catch. The catch is that it costs in the region of €3.5K per acre to get it established and you wont have a crop for two years i think.

However there are grants available to offset half the cost of establishing the crop.

So if you have (3.5K x 11)/2 = 19K handy it could be a good investment IF there is a market for it in the future, which there should be.

Hope this helps,

Niall

may2001

I planted in 2007 and had my first harvest this year. Costs exceeded income. No profit this year. Hopefully it will improve.

rliston

may2001 wrote: »

I planted in 2007 and had my first harvest this year. Costs exceeded income. No profit this year. Hopefully it will improve.

Is it not two years to the first harvest?

blue5000

Farrelly's have progressed well with willow, it is expensive to plant and it takes a few yrs to get your money back. 50% grant is still there for establishing willow and miscanthus. Willow will only have a crop every three years or perhaps two, depends on quality of your land, weather etc.

With miscanthus you get a crop every year after year 2. It is much drier at harvesting (75%dm) than willow(50% dm) at harvesting. Farrellys will tell you that there are big problems with burning miscanthus in power stations because of HCl, not proven yet.

Talk to Joe Hogan in Adare if you want to know more about planting miscanthus. http://jhmcrops.ie/index.html Hope this helps.

may2001

rliston wrote: »

Is it not two years to the first harvest?

Normally it is 3 years between harvests and you would normally expect the first harvest at year 3. I had enormous problems with thistles in the first year and 5 aces had to be re-planted the following year as it started off fine and then just died out. Expensive!! Willow and Miscanthus require a considerable amount of tlc until they are established crops. So some of mine was in its 4th year for harvesting and the harvester was barely able to handle it.

Miscanthus has had very losses this year due to lodging from the heavy snow in the winter and it looks like it won't cover the harvesting costs for me this year. Rabbits are a big problem with miscanthus, even where they are fenced out.

may2001

there are big problems with burning miscanthus in power stations because of HCl, not proven yet.

Yes apparently miscanthus residues attack the steel of the boilers in some of the power stations. Therefore they only burn a small proportion of miscanthus in the mix of peat, wood chip and miscanthus.

boatbuilder

There is a 50% grant to cover establishment costs, and if you go with farrelly willow, they spread the establishment costs over the later years of the harvest so you get money in your hand from the first year.

Niallf, are you sure its not 3.5k establishment cost per hectare, rather than acre?

newenergyfarms

Visit www.newenergyfarms.com for more information.

niallf

Yea, actually its 3.5k per HA. good spot!

bob charles

Miscanthus should be renamed White elephant grass, close on disaster so far, how people even consider setting such a crop is beyond me.

Re the 11 acres

Maybe your tennat isnt up to much as €850 seems a good bit on the low side for rent. Where is the location.

boatbuilder

Yeah the tenant is my brother :rolleyes:
South County Monaghan

boatbuilder

bob charles wrote: »

Miscanthus should be renamed White elephant grass, close on disaster so far, how people even consider setting such a crop is beyond me.

Could you elaborate on that?

LK_Dave

I have 30 acres of miscanthus and for me it has been a total disaster. If you are considering miscanthus my advise is this

1. Can heavy machinery travel on your land in the months of Jan, Feb, March and April? If the answer to any one of these months is no, then forget it.
2. Miscanthus needs a lot of spraying to control weeds and grass. Spraying weeds is usually not a problem but the sprays that kill grass also kills miscanthus. You need a good managment plan and somebody who is an expert on sprays as even a couple days delay can spell disaster. For this you maybe better off having your own tractor and sprayer or else a top class contractor.
3. No matter what the contractors/experts say you must harvest every year. Even in the first year this means just mulching the crop. like all grasses it needs to be cut. Do not just cut with a mower and leave in a sward.

I was sold this crop on the premise of all I had to do was plant it and walk away. Total BS. The advise I got (paid for) was totally wrong. It included, year one - initially wrong spray to clear the land, too late planting the crop, large areas of the ground were not planted. Year two - too late spraying the crop, hap hazard "patch planting", leaving the crop stand. Year three - again too late with spraying, not enough crop to get a harvest, cutting the crop and leaving in heavy swards, hap hazard "patch planting". Year three - a total disaster as the land was too wet to travel at the start of the year, did not harvest. Year four - first harvest, approx 1.75t/acre, land scared, paid 40% weeks later balance 10 months. Year five - second harvest approx 2t/acre (awaiting confirmation), payment due in June.

paddy reilly

The willow i belive will be a good crop in the future. I did a colege work placment with Farrelly bros/ Timber pro. I was working at the willow and i noticed none of the problems that are being talked about. Farrelly have one of only two harvesters in the country adapted for will. There was some problems at first with the header but these were sorted out quicky. Farrelly have invested massive money in all the equipment. They buy the crop off you and bring it back to their yard in kells, where they dry it and make it into wood pellets. The willow is an expensive crop to plant but it is a one time cost. The only upkeep you need to do is spray it every year. It is planted and then after the first year it is topped. It is then cut every two years after that. The way farrelly does it is you enter into a contract with him and he does all the planting spraying and harvesting. And he buys the crop of you. A very big company ran by two brothers. Both very sound people good to work for.

LK_Dave

I don't know anything about willow but I do have about 70 acres in forestry in outlaying farms. Never had a problem and is a proving to be a great facility. I harvested a couple of mature trees that were in the original hedge groves as firewood and have even harvested a few deer from same land. In the next 4-5 years I'll be looking at tinnings and am looking forward to it.

boatbuilder

paddy reilly wrote: »

The willow i belive will be a good crop in the future. I did a colege work placment with Farrelly bros/ Timber pro. I was working at the willow and i noticed none of the problems that are being talked about. Farrelly have one of only two harvesters in the country adapted for will. There was some problems at first with the header but these were sorted out quicky. Farrelly have invested massive money in all the equipment. They buy the crop off you and bring it back to their yard in kells, where they dry it and make it into wood pellets. The willow is an expensive crop to plant but it is a one time cost. The only upkeep you need to do is spray it every year. It is planted and then after the first year it is topped. It is then cut every two years after that. The way farrelly does it is you enter into a contract with him and he does all the planting spraying and harvesting. And he buys the crop of you. A very big company ran by two brothers. Both very sound people good to work for.

Thanks for that info. I suppose the main concerns I have about willow are:

My site is 420 foot above sea level, so is a bit colder and windier than your average lowland site. I'd be worried about the damage/death this might cause to willow. Farrelly said "its probably not an issue" but at the end of the day, I'm the person taking the financial hit if something goes wrong.

LK_Dave's post about miscanthus is pretty scary stuff but illustrates how you can't always rely on the advice from so called experts working for these private companies.

Lastly, when you enter into a contract with these companies, I presume the price of the willow is fixed at a certain rate.
So if all the hype is correct and renewable fuels such as willow are going to increase in price in the future as oil prices increase, then little old me isn't going to see that price increase, but Farrelly's will make mega bucks on it.

fendt312

what part of the country are you in? . There are 3 willow harvesters in the country .I would be interested in talking to you about willow and showing you my crops if you like .

may2001

boatbuilder wrote: »

Thanks for that info. I suppose the main concerns I have about willow are:

My site is 420 foot above sea level, so is a bit colder and windier than your average lowland site. I'd be worried about the damage/death this might cause to willow. Farrelly said "its probably not an issue" but at the end of the day, I'm the person taking the financial hit if something goes wrong.

LK_Dave's post about miscanthus is pretty scary stuff but illustrates how you can't always rely on the advice from so called experts working for these private companies.

Lastly, when you enter into a contract with these companies, I presume the price of the willow is fixed at a certain rate.
So if all the hype is correct and renewable fuels such as willow are going to increase in price in the future as oil prices increase, then little old me isn't going to see that price increase, but Farrelly's will make mega bucks on it.

My willow crops are nearly 500ft above sea level and they survive no problem. The willow is bred in Scandinavia which means that it is used to harsh winters. Miscanthus is a tropical grass and so may not do as well in our increasingly harsh winters - look at all the imported tropical plants from garden centres around the country which have died out over the last couple of winters. And snow is another problem for miscanthus. My miscanthus was so badly lodged that one contractor looked at it and refused to even consider harvesting it as he said it would do too much damage to his harvester.

I don't think that the growth / harvest projections are ever as good as promoted. The willow trial plots in Teagasc Oakpark Carlow were planted by hand on prime land - so there are no misses and it is quite a dense crop. I notice quite a difference in the performance of willow on good land and poorer land. I am now coming to the conclusion that the yields will barely cover harvesting costs for the the first 6 years, even with good well established crops. So, it is a much longer term committment from the grower.

The price quoted is very often an oven dried price i.e. at 0% moisture, while the crop when harvested will have perhaps 50 to 60% moisture giving you about half the oven dried price per tonne. Confusingly, the yields are often given in oven dried tonnes / ha / year. Contract prices should be index linked to the price of oil, but most do not, as willow chip providers use the price stability as a selling point for end users. Remember also that the willow chip is competing with wood chip from forestry thinnings.

Despite all the talk about renewable energy the govt last week put a big chopper to biomass by removing all grants for biomass boilers which are several times more expensive than oil boilers. Whist these boilers make good economic sense for very large heat users like hotesl with swimming pools, they certainly no longer make sense for average users and this will depress the demand for willow chip also. The peat burning power stations are looking for wood/willow chip as there is now a legal requirement for them to use a certain amount of biomass fuel. However, they are as tough as the meat factories are on cattle prices. I think there will be a reasonable return from willow in the long term but it certainly will not be the pot of gold that was painted. I had hoped to go to the Biomass conference in Tullamore in April, but I had a herd test on the day. The reports from it were quite despondent because of the lack of govt support for the industry.

Lastly, do you have a big concrete yard nearby where the chipped willow can be dumped for loading into trucks. It is important that stones and gravel don't get into it as it will lead to machinery breakdown in the boilers.

LK_Dave

Just heard that I'll be paid next week. Total harvest this year 43.5t!! Never worth it.

boatbuilder

LKDave, is that forrestry or willow you're talking about?

I rang the guy in Bord Na Mona yesterday and he said that they have over 100 farmers interested in growing willow on contract for them.
Reading between the lines, he didn't sound too enthusiastic so I reckon they will cherry-pick the best land that is closest to the power station. Doesn't sound too promising for me since I am in county Monaghan.

I also heard that Farrelly Willow were/are having financial problems.
Not an encouraging thing to hear and my experience so far with both of these companies has seriously put me off willow.

blue5000

Hi boat builder who were you talking to in B Na M?

I reckon any more than 30 miles for transporting willow/miscanthus and it gets economically doubtful. As oil prices rise, the cost of transport and processing will rise too.

boatbuilder

blue5000 wrote: »

Hi boat builder who were you talking to in B Na M?
I reckon any more than 30 miles for transporting willow/miscanthus and it gets economically doubtful. As oil prices rise, the cost of transport and processing will rise too.

I think it was John O'Halloran...

Oldtree

My one concern about willow that I have not really seen addressed is that it is prone to disease. planting a number of different varieties may overcome this problem should one variety get hit.

LK_Dave

boatbuilder wrote: »

LKDave, is that forrestry or willow you're talking about?

I rang the guy in Bord Na Mona yesterday and he said that they have over 100 farmers interested in growing willow on contract for them.
Reading between the lines, he didn't sound too enthusiastic so I reckon they will cherry-pick the best land that is closest to the power station. Doesn't sound too promising for me since I am in county Monaghan.

I also heard that Farrelly Willow were/are having financial problems.
Not an encouraging thing to hear and my experience so far with both of these companies has seriously put me off willow.

Hi Boatbuilder, I'm in miscanthus. Won't be thinning my forestry plantations for another 4-5 years.

boatbuilder

Oldtree wrote: »

My one concern about willow that I have not really seen addressed is that it is prone to disease. planting a number of different varieties may overcome this problem should one variety get hit.

My father in law is "into moths" and is a wildlife warden over in Wales.
He reckons that willow is one of the best things for wildlife, as so many insects love to eat it. Can't imagine it being a massive problem though so long as you keep a good eye on it and spray if necessary.

may2001

LK_Dave wrote: »

Just heard that I'll be paid next week. Total harvest this year 43.5t!! Never worth it.

How many acres did you have?

I had 208 tn from 25 acres of 3 and 4 year growth

= 208tn from 10.1 ha = 20.5tn/ha
Yield = 20.5/3.5yr = 5.9tn per ha per year which is a lot less than the 10tn/ha/yr predicted.

I received my cheque during the week for March harvest.

may2001

boatbuilder wrote: »

My father in law is "into moths" and is a wildlife warden over in Wales.
He reckons that willow is one of the best things for wildlife, as so many insects love to eat it. Can't imagine it being a massive problem though so long as you keep a good eye on it and spray if necessary.

Spraying is rather difficult after the 1st year due to the height of the plants. Some of my 4yr growth must have been more than 5m high and the re-growth after the March harvest is now nearly 2m high.

I did spray some thistles in my crop in the 2nd year when it was about 2m high. The tractor and sprayer pushed the stems down, but my sprayer man was not anxiouse to do it again due to sprayer nozzle damage.

LK_Dave

may2001 wrote: »

How many acres did you have?

I had 208 tn from 25 acres of 3 and 4 year growth

= 208tn from 10.1 ha = 20.5tn/ha
Yield = 20.5/3.5yr = 5.9tn per ha per year which is a lot less than the 10tn/ha/yr predicted.

I received my cheque during the week for March harvest.

I think we maybe comparing apples and oranges. I believe you have willow and I have miscanthus.

But for the record, I have about 25 acres of miscanthus.

may2001

LK_Dave wrote: »

I think we maybe comparing apples and oranges. I believe you have willow and I have miscanthus.

But for the record, I have about 25 acres of miscanthus.

Yes, my figures above were for willow. I also have 25 acres miscanthus planted in 2007.

First harvest was in March 2010 with 36tn of bales. - way short of the 4tn/acre predicted.

March 2011 harvest was chipped with maize harvester and had moisture content of 50% to 60%. I haven't got any returns yet on this - but I don't think it will be any better as it was badly lodged due to the snow.