Willow and Miscanthus - opinions please?

crackcrack30

may2001 wrote: »

. Some of my 4yr growth must have been more than 5m high and the re-growth after the March harvest is now nearly 2m high.

Planning on planting a hectare or so of mixed woodland for future copicing for firewood, How thick does the willow grow and is it suitable for chopsaw and firewood after giving it a year to season?

& to keep on topic how much (roughly) per harvested tonne of miscanthus are ye guys paid ............cc30

Oldtree

boatbuilder wrote: »

My father in law is "into moths" and is a wildlife warden over in Wales.
He reckons that willow is one of the best things for wildlife, as so many insects love to eat it. Can't imagine it being a massive problem though so long as you keep a good eye on it and spray if necessary.

Willow is very early in the year to flower and is excellent as an early source of nectar. A mature willow can have as many as 400 species living on it.

One thought of adding value to these crops is carbon sequestering in the roots. One figure I am aware of is that a maturing meadow sequesters up to 3 tonnes of carbon per hectar, I dont know what it is for biofuel crops. Could an extra payment be gleaned for this too?

may2001

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Planning on planting a hectare or so of mixed woodland for future copicing for firewood, How thick does the willow grow and is it suitable for chopsaw and firewood after giving it a year to season?

& to keep on topic how much (roughly) per harvested tonne of miscanthus are ye guys paid ............cc30

I'm not sure whether willow would be the best to plant for firewood - especially if you are going to sell the firewood.

Two years ago, I cut up a mature willow tree which was blown down in one of our field boundaries. Actually this was in preparation for planting willow in the field. The butt of the tree was about 500mm in diamater. I left the blocks of timber on a concrete yard to season, but found that it does not dry unless covered and in fact the blocks of timber all developed willow shoots until they were brought into a shed. When brought into a shed it did dry out quite well, but it is harder to split than ash of a similar diameter. When dry, the timber is very light compared to ash or even spruce. It burns quite well in an open fire, but does not last long.

I don't think that it would be a very popular seller as firewood. I would much prefer to plant ash for firewood.

The going rate for willow chip seems to be 60 Euro per oven dried tonne ex farm. This equates to about 30 Euro per tonne for freshly harvested willow chip which is about 50% to 60% moisture.

Alfasud

How did the allottments ever go? I don't hear much about them anywhere.

reilig

may2001 wrote: »

I'm not sure whether willow would be the best to plant for firewood - especially if you are going to sell the firewood.

Two years ago, I cut up a mature willow tree which was blown down in one of our field boundaries. Actually this was in preparation for planting willow in the field. The butt of the tree was about 500mm in diamater. I left the blocks of timber on a concrete yard to season, but found that it does not dry unless covered and in fact the blocks of timber all developed willow shoots until they were brought into a shed. When brought into a shed it did dry out quite well, but it is harder to split than ash of a similar diameter. When dry, the timber is very light compared to ash or even spruce. It burns quite well in an open fire, but does not last long.

I don't think that it would be a very popular seller as firewood. I would much prefer to plant ash for firewood.

The going rate for willow chip seems to be 60 Euro per oven dried tonne ex farm. This equates to about 30 Euro per tonne for freshly harvested willow chip which is about 50% to 60% moisture.

I'd prefer willow to spruce. Willow will burn for almost 50% longer in my gasifier. Of course Ash is the dream wood, but it can be 15 years before you can have any return from thinnings in an ash plantation - even then the return will be small. Willow can be coppiced from year 7 onwards and will continue to regrow. The other advantage of willow is that it will grow in poor or marshy soil - often the piece of land which isn't suitable for other agricultural activities.

may2001

reilig wrote: »

I'd prefer willow to spruce. Willow will burn for almost 50% longer in my gasifier. Of course Ash is the dream wood, but it can be 15 years before you can have any return from thinnings in an ash plantation - even then the return will be small. Willow can be coppiced from year 7 onwards and will continue to regrow. The other advantage of willow is that it will grow in poor or marshy soil - often the piece of land which isn't suitable for other agricultural activities.

That's interesting, that willow lasts 50% longer in your gasifier as the experts have always told me that the heat output from burning any timber is almost the same per unit of weight i.e. a kg of softwood will give approximately the same heat output as a kg of hardwood. With a dense hardwood you should be able to fit more kg of it in the boiler and hence you should get more heat from the fill. The willow I have used here was much lighter (less dense) than the spruce and maybe the densities vary with the different varieties of willow. I have only used it in an open fireplace with a back boiler and whilst it burned very hot it did not have the same lasting power as ash or hawthorn. Maybe your gasifier throttles back on the combustion and makes it last longer?

I think we need to be careful when saying that willow thrives on poor marshy ground as I have found a considerable difference in the growth in 2 fields, one of which is a bit boggy. Talking to other growers I have found that growth has been much poorer on poor ground. Willow takes up a lot of moisture from the ground (possibly more than any other similar plant), but I think it still needs good ground to thrive or alternatively needs enrichment from slurry, sludge etc. Thats probably why willow is so popular in reed beds for slurry/sewage treatment.

crackcrack30

reilig wrote: »

I'd prefer willow to spruce. Willow will burn for almost 50% longer in my gasifier. Of course Ash is the dream wood, but it can be 15 years before you can have any return from thinnings in an ash plantation - even then the return will be small. Willow can be coppiced from year 7 onwards and will continue to regrow. The other advantage of willow is that it will grow in poor or marshy soil - often the piece of land which isn't suitable for other agricultural activities.

Can you not coppice the Ash plantation after 7-10 years?

reilig

As you stated, the willow is more dense than the softwood and therefore burns for longer - well that's my experience. The boiler is thermostatically controlled. When it reaches a certain temperature, it reduces the air supply and continues to put out heat at a steady rate. Willow gets it to the base temperature very fast, and then when the air supply is reduced, it burns for a long time. Burning willow in an open fireplace does not give any control over the air supply and therefore it burns out at full pace - often giving out an awful lot of heat, but burning very fast.

Willow that I have planted for firewood definitely does better on damp and boggy ground. Again, it is probably type specific - the cuttings for the ground that I have planted were sourced from willow on boggy ground. I'm definitely not advocating that people plant willow for biomass harvesting on marshy ground. I was suggesting that people could put land to use that was unsuitable for farming because of wet conditions by growing willow for firewood on it (as I am doing myself quite successfully).

There can be no debate, Willow is one of the poorest hardwoods for burning - especially when you compare it to ash, oak, whitethorn etc. However, this is reflected in the growth time and the return from a willow plantation. It is definitely possible to replace an oil boiler in a large house which uses €3000 of oil per year with an acre of willow. Plant 1/5 of it every year. Harvest 1/5 of it every year from year 6. You'll have enough firewood to burn in your gasifying boiler and never have to replant. This cannot be achieved with any other type of hardwood native to Ireland.

may2001 wrote: »

That's interesting, that willow lasts 50% longer in your gasifier as the experts have always told me that the heat output from burning any timber is almost the same per unit of weight i.e. a kg of softwood will give approximately the same heat output as a kg of hardwood. With a dense hardwood you should be able to fit more kg of it in the boiler and hence you should get more heat from the fill. The willow I have used here was much lighter (less dense) than the spruce and maybe the densities vary with the different varieties of willow. I have only used it in an open fireplace with a back boiler and whilst it burned very hot it did not have the same lasting power as ash or hawthorn. Maybe your gasifier throttles back on the combustion and makes it last longer?

I think we need to be careful when saying that willow thrives on poor marshy ground as I have found a considerable difference in the growth in 2 fields, one of which is a bit boggy. Talking to other growers I have found that growth has been much poorer on poor ground. Willow takes up a lot of moisture from the ground (possibly more than any other similar plant), but I think it still needs good ground to thrive or alternatively needs enrichment from slurry, sludge etc. Thats probably why willow is so popular in reed beds for slurry/sewage treatment.

reilig

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Can you not coppice the Ash plantation after 7-10 years?

You could coppace ash at year 2, but you'd only have twigs. I have no experience of it, but have read a bit about it and it appears that the average age of ash plantations suitable for thinning is 14 to 17 years. An ash plantation on very good land may be suitable after 12 years, but it is rare.

may2001

3000 of oil per year with an acre of willow. Plant 1/5 of it every year. Harvest 1/5 of it every year from year 6. You'll have enough firewood to burn in your gasifying boiler and never have to replant. This cannot be achieved with any other type of hardwood native to Ireland. [/QUOTE]

Thats an interesting idea. There is an area in one corner of a field which I have planted with willow which is not machine accessible. A number of questions:

1) How did you prepare the area - did you spray off and plough etc?

2) How did you control competing vegetation for the first couple of years?

3) How did you plant?

4) What spacing?

5) Do you just harvest with a chain saw?

6) What diameter and height are they when harvested?

7) Where / how do you dry/season the cut timber?

8) Do you dry it in pole or log form?

9) Did you have any SFP issues resulting from doing this?

reilig

Thats an interesting idea. There is an area in one corner of a field which I have planted with willow which is not machine accessible. A number of questions: 1) How did you prepare the area - did you spray off and plough etc? 2) How did you control competing vegetation for the first couple of years? 3) How did you plant? 4) What spacing? 5) Do you just harvest with a chain saw? 6) What diameter and height are they when harvested? 7) Where / how do you dry/season the cut timber? 8) Do you dry it in pole or log form? 9) Did you have any SFP issues resulting?[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]


I planted mine on a piece of cutaway bog. I sprayed with Glyphosate to clear the ground and just planted the cuttings with a planting pole at 1 meter spacings. Its bogland so the only major competition for the first year is grass - however, I planted willow slips that were 1 meter long and they really took off. I cut them about 1 foot from the ground at the beginning of year 2 to encourage multiple sprouts from them. The piece of land that I have planted them on is not counted under my farm maps - but I imagine that anyone growing them like on land which is counted for SFP would need to remove the growing area from their maps - remember last year there was a big crack down on areas of scrub.

I'm in year 3 now. I have no useable wood yet. But in 2 more years, I should be able to cut out the heavier poles from it and i should have logs up to 4 inches in diameter. I might give it an extra year which will allow it to grow thicker if I can source enough wood till then to keep the boiler going.

I'm currently using willow wood from hedgerows that I had to coppice for REPS 4. Its diameter varies from 3 inches to 1 foot. I have a couple of years supply which should get me to the point where the willow that I have planted will be suitable for burning. I saw with a chainsaw - and expect to saw with a chainsaw when the willow that I have planted is suitable. Willow is very easy on chainsaw chains. I cut them into 6ft lengths and stack them in a hayshed with no sides and allowed to air dry for at least 12 months. Wood ic checked with a moisture meter and has to be below 20% before I can use it in the boiler - this is easily achieved. However, it is important that it doesn't go below 10% moisture either or it will drastically reduce the burn time in the gasifier. I saw them on a simple saw horse. Only the willow above 8" in diameter needs to be split so that the gasifyer will take it.

I can't say what height willow will be when its harvested - it varies. I'm trying to encourage multiple shoots from each plant - but i will trim off the smaller ones after year 2 so that the plant can push all its growth into 4 or 5 shoots.

boatbuilder

I'm heading down to the Bord na Mona "Willow open day" tomorrow.
I worked really hard this year on my land, made thousands of top quality hay bales and can't get them sold for anything over €1.50 a bale. So willow is looking attractive at the moment.

boatbuilder

Well, spent a day down at BNM last week and got a tour of the power staton at Edenderry. Its an impressive operation and I learned a few things.
One thing that I learned was that all willow establishment grants have been suspended pending a full review of government departments... which probably explains why there were only five people at the open day when I was there.

My feeling about the whole thing is that Miscanthus is a non-starter...don't even go there. Miscanthus has too much chlorine in it, so can't be burned safely in the power station as it forms an acid when burned, which damages the steel inside the boiler of the power station. (the power station is basically just like a massive wood/peat-burning stove with a back boiler).

Willow would be ok if you live fairly close to Edenderry. For larger distances, your haulage costs will come out of your profits! One thing I didn't like was that they said that if Bord na Mona help to plant the crop (in effect lend you the other half of the establishment cost to be paid back over 20 years), you cannot take cuttings from the willow to plant elsewhere, as the "royalties" would be due to BNM. A bit cheeky I thought, as its not like they are giving you the money....its a loan.

Insecticide spraying is essential because of leatherjacket damage....they burrow down under the ground and eat the roots of the willow.

The machinery and equipment for harvesting hasn't been perfected yet....basically only one easy way at the moment and thats to chip it. Unfortunately, this means delivering wet chip to BNM, which they pay less for than drier stuff.
Whole stem harvesting is tricky because its hard to handle bundles of tall willow. Experients have been done recently with a specially designed round baler, but apparently it doesn't do a good job and needs more work on the design to make it work properly. If this happened, I could see the round bale option becoming popular because its easy to handle round bales, plus you could stack it somewhere on your land to dry out, then ship it to BNM at a lower moisture content, which means more money per tonne.
The hope would be that if you planted this year, by the time it comes to your first harvest, the round baler would be in operation.

LK_Dave

boatbuilder wrote: »

Experients have been done recently with a specially designed round baler, but apparently it doesn't do a good job and needs more work on the design to make it work properly.

Do you know who is designing the baler? I’d be interested to know if it is one of the established baler manufacturers, a standalone engineering company or a back garden shed hero.

reilig

LK_Dave wrote: »

Do you know who is designing the baler? I’d be interested to know if it is one of the established baler manufacturers, a standalone engineering company or a back garden shed hero.

http://www.grpanderson.com/en/biomass/biobaler-system

boatbuilder

LK_Dave wrote: »

Do you know who is designing the baler? I’d be interested to know if it is one of the established baler manufacturers, a standalone engineering company or a back garden shed hero.

Don't know who designed it, but it was brought over from Canada on trial.

F.D

Anyone in ireland got one of these biobalers yet ? or is there a dealer appointed? Might have an area where it could be used
Boatbuilder thanks for the BNM info very interesting

may2001

boatbuilder wrote: »

you cannot take cuttings from the willow to plant elsewhere, as the "royalties" would be due to BNM. A bit cheeky I thought, as its not like they are giving you the money....its a loan.

I think that the royalties are due to the willow plant breeders in Sweden rather than to BNM. A similar clause was written into my planting contract - not my supply contract.

boatbuilder wrote: »

Insecticide spraying is essential because of leatherjacket damage....they burrow down under the ground and eat the roots of the willow.

Spraying for weeds, particularly nettles and thistles is also very important in years 1 & 2. I had substantial losses in one field in year 1 due to not paying enough attention to this. Careful choice of the spray is needed. Stomp is the best, but is no longer licenced for use on willow in the Republic but is still licenced for this use in the UK & NI.

boatbuilder wrote: »

Whole stem harvesting is tricky because its hard to handle bundles of tall willow.

I have seen the whole stem harvester working on willow in Oakpark in Carlow and it manages the stems quite well. The problem is that it introduces another set of handling costs in that the bundles must be collected from the field, placed in storage for drying and then chipped. Each time you handle the material adds to the costs of what is a relatively low value material.

boatbuilder wrote: »

Experients have been done recently with a specially designed round baler, but apparently it doesn't do a good job and needs more work on the design to make it work properly. If this happened, I could see the round bale option becoming popular because its easy to handle round bales, plus you could stack it somewhere on your land to dry out, then ship it to BNM at a lower moisture content, which means more money per tonne.
The hope would be that if you planted this year, by the time it comes to your first harvest, the round baler would be in operation.

I saw the bio-baler operating in Oakpark last year. The bale produced is about the same size as a 4 x 4 round bale, but is not very dense and almost certainly would need to be chipped before transport to the power plant as a truck load of bales would probably weigh a lot less than a truck load of straw bales.

The biobaler is manufactured by a Canadian firm, (Google for biobaler) and seems well made. It was driven by a 150hp tractor in Oakpark. I haven't researched the cost and if anyone knows please post. It should certainly be as economical a solution as the very expensive 600hp willow cut and chip harvesters.

By the way, did BNM give any projections as to annual yields from willow?

catp

LKDave .... I went thru the exact same as you. Just taut it was me. Are you still growing it??

LK_Dave

catp wrote: »

LKDave .... I went thru the exact same as you. Just taut it was me. Are you still growing it??

yep still growing it...just harvested today!!

catp

r u happy with the tonnage off it? I took it out last yr after four yrs

Wild Bill

For what it's worth - I reckon eucalyptus has more bio fuel potential than willow or elephant grass

But if I was planting 30 acres I'd go wall to wall Sitka spruce.

In Irish (non-peat) conditions it's levels of production, costs associated, reliability, resistance to pests and disease - are peerless.

Commercially, a no-brainer.

But expect the Forest Service to impose some bizarre "environmental" conditions if you are looking for grants. :rolleyes:

Oldtree

eucalyptus not really a goer any more bill, as significant losses reported after previous bad winters here and sitka not really comparable with short term rotations of willow as sitka does not regrow well from the stumps (if at all). Dont know too much about elephant grass but from what I have seem of it, it has no problems here.

Wild Bill

Oldtree wrote: »

eucalyptus not really a goer any more bill, as significant losses reported after previous bad winters here and sitka not really comparable with short term rotations of willow as sitka does not regrow well from the stumps (if at all). Dont know too much about elephant grass but from what I have seem of it, it has no problems here.

I think what the -17C frosts proved was that E nitens is dead safe to plant along the south and SW coasts. You'd not plant SS in a midland frost-hollow or a western peat (any more!)

The growing back of willow is of dubious benefit if the yield/cost equations aren't right - it requires a lot of inputs, is prone to disease and again you can't plant it everywhere.

But no, I have never seen Sitka regenerate from a stump - despite it's ability to produce profuse epicormic shoots.

Alba Trees

Eucalyptus still has potential, but you need to be careful about site. I suspect it will become more popular as people put those last two wintes into context - it would be a medium risk, high yield crop. Willows grow well enough, but moisture and bark will always be a problem, which is what allows Eucs to become more popular.

sheamuseen

LK_Dave wrote: »

yep still growing it...just harvested today!!

and how did you get on?

sheamuseen

catp wrote: »

r u happy with the tonnage off it? I took it out last yr after four yrs

how did you take it out?

did you get it all out?

Deirdre MacQuaile

Hi

Can anyone tell me, is it too late to harvest willow boughs now to replant?

gozunda

Deirdre MacQuaile wrote: »

Hi

Can anyone tell me, is it too late to harvest willow boughs now to replant?

You still have a small amount of time to cut lengths of willow for growing on.

First make sure you cut from willow that is disease free - no lesions, canker etc
I use local varieties that are already suited to soil conditions and are acclimatised to the area (this is very important in my opinion)

Cut lasts years growth up up to the thickness of your finger making sure that buds are still dormant or just about to emerge.

A flat cut at the bottom of the cutting and a slopped cut just above a live bud is the best way to prepare the cuttings.

Use a metal rod about the same thickness as your cuttings to make dibs in the soil, insert cutting at least 8-12 inches and heal in with your foot. The longer the cutting within reason the better as surrounding grass / weed growth will be less of a problem.

Allowing for soil contact and adequate moisture cuttings should root fairly quickly and watch for leaves and new growth. Any that do not take can be removed and replaced in the Autumn.

LK_Dave

It appears that the experts have finally concluded that miscanthus is a waste of time!!

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/300m-penalty-if-we-dont-meet-bioenergy-targets-30465383.html

I'm still growing but haven't harvested for two years as its uneconomical to transport to Edenderry for me. Probably end us as bedding for chickens and cattle next year and then back to grass.