Extra Croke Park Hours

highly1111

Hi Everyone

I am on a casual teacher on an hourly rate.

Do you know if I have to do the extra 5 hours before the end of term? It's not a bother but just wondering if I am included as I'm not a union member or on any type of non-casual contract.

many thanks

Consuelano

What are you doing on a casual teacher?! Get off him/her!



As far as I know, you do not have to do the extra hours because you are paid an hourly rate.

implausible

If you are casual, you shouldn't be expected to do it. Union membership has nothing to do with it.

implausible

Seeing as someone has started a thread with this title, I'm going to hijack it a bit and ask how other schools plan on utilising these hours.

We had a meeting (part of the 5 hours) to plan for next year. It seems our VEC want a breakdown from each school of how the hours are to used. This sounds daft to me, as there is no wriggle room for extra meetings that may be required or if CPD crops up later in the year.

So far, for next year, most of it seems to be taken up with monthly staff meetings, information evenings ('planning'), staff development, subject planning and in-school professional development (e.g. ICT training). We have a large FETAC intake in our school and there is no mention of how all the new work is to be dealt with. Oh yeah, and we're back to school on the 29th WITH students :eek:

I'd love to hear how other schools are approaching this, particularly those who are using the hours creatively.

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

Seeing as someone has started a thread with this title, I'm going to hijack it a bit and ask how other schools plan on utilising these hours.

We had a meeting (part of the 5 hours) to plan for next year. It seems our VEC want a breakdown from each school of how the hours are to used. This sounds daft to me, as there is no wriggle room for extra meetings that may be required or if CPD crops up later in the year.

So far, for next year, most of it seems to be taken up with monthly staff meetings, information evenings ('planning'), staff development, subject planning and in-school professional development (e.g. ICT training). We have a large FETAC intake in our school and there is no mention of how all the new work is to be dealt with. Oh yeah, and we're back to school on the 29th WITH students :eek:

I'd love to hear how other schools are approaching this, particularly those who are using the hours creatively.

We're having a staff meeting after school this week and it's on the agenda how to use the 33 hours. I won't be there because I'm out examining this week.

I'm a bit puzzled as to how it will work, considering that some of it will be assigned to planning, staff meetings etc etc. How does that affect pro-rata teachers who only have to do pro-rata hours for CPA. Can they get up and leave planning and meetings once they have reached their quota for the year? Some of the hours can be used in the S&S scheme, but only for teachers that are already in it. Teachers that are not in S&S can't be asked to do supervision as part of their 33 hours.

Toto Wolfcastle

Open night, extra parent/teacher meetings for exam classes, coming back one day early without students at the start of the year, monthly staff meetings. They're just a few of the things I have heard.

The ASTI has examples of how it can be done in their Nuacht.

highly1111

Thanks for the replies. Figured that union membership would be irrelevant but just wanted to put all information down.

For personal reasons I couldn't attend a meeting today but I didn't want to be seeing as "slacking" so just wanted to check it out. Ended up talking to ASTI and anyone on a substitute contract is not obliged to work these extra hours. I know this has being answered by some of you - but just for final clarification.

As a quick aside, the 2 hour meeting today in my school (as part of the 5 required before the end of term) was for exam planning - both papers and marking schemes.

Thanks

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Teachers that are not in S&S can't be asked to do supervision as part of their 33 hours.

Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? What are they going to do - group together those who don't do s/s and give them a project to do?! S/s is the most obvious way to use up 'spare' hours and I don't think I'm the only one who can see all s/s being lumped into the CPA in future.

Thanks for that Bobblehead, must go look that up.

Toto Wolfcastle

deemark wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? What are they going to do - group together those who don't do s/s and give them a project to do?! S/s is the most obvious way to use up 'spare' hours and I don't think I'm the only one who can see all s/s being lumped into the CPA in future.

I was told that if someone cannot be a part of whatever is chosen to fill the hours, that they become 'exempt' from those hours. For example, if an extra parent/teacher meeting is added and a teacher does not have that year group, they are not expected to be there or to make up those hours. I'm not sure if it would be the same for the S&S scheme because with the P/T meetings teachers are available but not needed, but with S/S teachers are not available. This is just something that I have been told but the source is fairly trustworthy.

rainbowtrout

It's going to get fairly messy one way or the other.

spurious

I presume some civil servant who has no idea how schools run thought it up.

The list of things which the hours can be used for is too narrow and the constant mantra of 'it must be a whole staff activity' is unworkable.

Say we have a staff development day and of a staff of fifty, three don't show up - does that mean it wasn't valid? What happens those three?

Say we have a parent teacher meeting and no one wants to see the PE teachers so they spend half of the hours fixing stuff in the gym - does that count?

It smacks of 'we think you will try and wriggle out of these hours so we are policing them tightly' when in fact we all do WAY above that amount of extra hours for the school annually anyway.

vamos!

These hours also put sub and casual staff in andifficult position. We dont have to so the hours but I, for one, dont want to tell my principal I dont want to do them! We all need to look good in the hope of hours next year or a reference... Id be interested in what other subs are doing or not doing as the case may be! Ive done one hour already which was a meting for meetings sake rather than useful imo.

byhookorbycrook

It doesn't have to be whole staff, a group of year teachers could meet.

What I dislike about this agreement is it takes no account of work teachers have being doing after school.

In my school 5 teachers train teams-after school, at present the communion class teachers (held on a Saturday)are busy hanging art work in the church. Schools tours don't finish at 3 pm. We are jsut back from an overnight trip with children-again, no credit given for this time. I

It will erode goodwill, already many schools are no longer playing matches after school and it's hard to blame them. No credit given for all the extra meetings we have with parents on top of the official p/t meetings.

boogle

The impression I got from our Principal is that, whatever we decide to use the hours for, not everyone will be doing the same thing. Also, it seems that he has to sign off on each individual teacher's hours and send into the VEC. Talk about time-wasted!

byhookorbycrook

In primary, there is a general "sign off". We are doing these hours and all we have been doing before. Our BOM and principal can stand over what we are doing.

Trotter

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

In primary, there is a general "sign off". We are doing these hours and all we have been doing before. Our BOM and principal can stand over what we are doing.

How do you mean general sign off? As in the principal just has to say he/she is happy that the time's being done?

I think it stinks that the volunteer school sports is specified as not included, and very odd that the motion to have them included taken at the INTO congress was withdrawn.

rainbowtrout

Staff meeting in my school today. I wasn't in but it seems that our 33 hours are to be made up of PT meetings, staff meetings, open evening, inservice evenings, whole school planning, dept planning, all to take place in the evening.

Trotter

There was an interesting clarification posted on the INTO website in March.

Croke Park Implementation
INTO is receiving a considerable number of queries in relation to the implementation of the Croke Park Agreement. The key principles underlining the Agreement are:

1. Central purpose underlying the provision of additional time is to provide for certain essential activities to take place outside class/tuition time. Key objective is to maximise class/tuition time.

2. The essential activities are:

school planning
continuous professional development
induction
pre and post school supervision
policy development
staff meetings
nationally planned in-service
school arranged in-service
3. There should be consultation at school level as to the optimum usage of the additional hours. Final decision is with the board of management.

4. Consultation process should prioritise the needs of the particular school and allocate hours for key activities.

5. With regard to planning - there is no template as to how planning should take place. A decision should be taken at school level as to the most effective way to plan in order to meet the needs of that particular school. The method of planning adopted can include individual, group or whole school planning or a combination of all three methods.

6. In allocating time to various activities from the block of 36 hours, it would be prudent in the first instance, to allocate time from those activities that will require a whole school involvement e.g. staff meetings. Secondly, hours should be allocated to those activities that involve a group of staff e.g. meetings of the Special Education Team. Any remaining hours (if any) can then be allocated to individual activities e.g. supervision.

7. The record of the total usage of the hours has to be published in some form for the school community. The form of publication is not prescribed and will vary from school to school. Forms of publication could include the use of the school notice board, a letter to parents, a school newsletter etc.

The last part of section 5 was interesting to me because it shows that individual planning is a viable option in order to do these hours.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/NewsArchive/March2011/Title,18318,en.php

E.T.

Absolutely Trotter - and way too many teachers are being told it's not, and forced into group planning when they have plenty of their own work to do.

Flashgordon197

I would advise all Union members who are doing unpaid class masterships/ tutors to tell their boss that unless some allowance is made in Croke Park hours for this free labour that they no longer intend doing it. So long as this work was not part of paid post of responsibility in the past ,then you are perfectly within your rights to ask. If he/she says no-then resign your free labour . Your principal can allow you do your class master work at four pm or acknowledge you do this free work during the day and turn a blind eye as you walk out at four pm on the occasional croke park hours day.

Teachers are a spineless lot. I'm a teacher -we have a tendency to give in for the interests of the school and that allows management to ride us work wise. Sorry to be blunt but only way to wake some people up. Two pay cuts-more work?? plus being a unpaid class master?? Im now beginning to understand how the National Union of teachers allowed UK teaching jobs to be over burdened to the point where the average Uk teacher quits 5 years after starting.

boogle

Teachers are a spineless lot. I'm a teacher -we have a tendency to give in for the interests of the school and that allows management to ride us work wise.

I don't agree. We're not spineless at all. In fact, I'd say the majority of teachers are quite assertive. The tendency to work for the interests of the school and give freely of our time shouldn't be taken as a negative or a weakness. I think it shows the professionalism that teachers in this country have that they aren't just clocking in and out. We care about our schools and our students.

mick kk

We started this week. going to come back 2 days early in summer and maybe one day early at xmas. nothing decided yet. I don't mind that part too much and the idea that we actually teach for the 167 days. What I hate about it is the meetings in the evenings. Practical teachers in our school stay one or two evenings per week as the year moves on and deadlines approach.
Most have said that they will simply go to meetings instead of taking the kids in which is a real shame as kids will certainly lose out. I cannot for the life of me see how it is going to save 1 cent for the state. This worries me as the gov. have said that if money isn't saved then more cuts will be imposed...even if they got us supervising for one class per week for free this would save millions.

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Staff meeting in my school today. I wasn't in but it seems that our 33 hours are to be made up of PT meetings, staff meetings, open evening, inservice evenings, whole school planning, dept planning, all to take place in the evening.

That's one of the reasons why I think this is unfair on part time staff....If most of the time is going to be used for PT meetings and after school meetings then how can the part time staff be excused from this?

When our pay is cut again before the end of the year (be in no doubt about the certainty of this) will we withdraw from the 33 hrs?

Flashgordon197

boogle wrote: »

I don't agree. We're not spineless at all. In fact, I'd say the majority of teachers are quite assertive. The tendency to work for the interests of the school and give freely of our time shouldn't be taken as a negative or a weakness. I think it shows the professionalism that teachers in this country have that they aren't just clocking in and out. We care about our schools and our students.

Let me clarify. Of course all teachers should do some extra but -how long is piece of string? The department can keep coming back and back asking you to be 'professional' and do your bit for the school-are you just going to give in? In my experience many teachers are too inclined to say "yes " to everything. A one day strike has been the main part of our response to two pay cuts. A longer strike would not have stopped the pay cuts but would have stopped some of this croke park nonsense. They know they will get you to do practically anything under the heading of care for the pupils. I heard of a school where the Principal only gave one class for LCVP instead of the required two. What did the teacher do? Kick up a fuss?! No complaints- they came in at 8:15 in the morning. You might applaud that-I see it as wrong. Unpaid labour and not caring for yourself or perhaps your family.

Take parent teacher meetings. We got benchmarking to do half of them outside school. (plus other stuff) Two pay cuts and yet the Department still assumes teachers will do them. All parent teacher meetings should have been included in Croke Park hours. Only the other half (which were done within school ) are now.

Feeona

spurious wrote: »

It smacks of 'we think you will try and wriggle out of these hours so we are policing them tightly' when in fact we all do WAY above that amount of extra hours for the school annually anyway.

I don't like that slant to the extra hours either.

It is quite diffcult to organise times that suit absolutely everybody on the staff (who hasn't had the hassle of trying to organise a night out for everyone in the workplace, only to find that everyone can't go!). Those already doing extra curricular acitivities with children are (on more than one occasion) going to have to cut back on these activities if they are actually going to attend the whole school meetings.

I'm sure the children will understand that we're doing it for the good of a face-saving government.:rolleyes: I echo the point that whoever dreamed up this scheme has absolutely no idea how a school is run.

E.T.

I'm very skeptical about the whole thing - it's insulting because it's making people think more than ever that we do feck all outside school hours, and have to be forced into doing this extra hour.

I'm definitely getting the feeling that this hour is to get non-admin staff doing admin work, so that the moratorium on promotion becomes a permanent fixture.

jonseyblub

E.T. wrote: »

I'm definitely getting the feeling that this hour is to get non-admin staff doing admin work, so that the moratorium on promotion becomes a permanent fixture.

Fully agree with this. With the amount of retirements over the last couple of years and only more coming in the next few months, the work some of these people did for their post of responsibilities will have to be covered in some way. If we are not careful it will creep into these 33 hrs in some way.
Really annoyed about the fact that the hours given to extra-curricular work is not covered. Even the fact that CPD done outside of school doesn't count either.
Madness. It'll only turn people off from doing outside courses as they'll be wrecked by the end of the day. Look at all the project maths courses that have taken place over the last two years in ICT and Content. Do the dept honestly think people will do these after leaving their school at maybe 6 o'clock.

byhookorbycrook

Jonsey, the teaching Council is proposing that CPD in our own time will soon be compulsory.

jonseyblub

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Jonsey, the teaching Council is proposing that CPD in our own time will soon be compulsory.

Really? If thats true the only thing that will suffer will be extra-curricular activities. There is only so much we can do in a day!!. I wouldn't mind giving one or two days during the summer for CPD (before i get shot down for this suggestion again. I suggest it because its at a time when I'm relaxed and more susceptible to actually taking things in), but If I'm made do this at night during term time or mid-term breaks etc our school will need to find a coach to 2 soccer and 1 football teams as I won't be doing it!!

byhookorbycrook

Three of us took kids away overnight last week to play football. This week 4 teachers are taking 60 children away for two nights. These hours do not take any of that into account.

Art Teacher

Bobblehead Panda wrote: »

Open night, extra parent/teacher meetings for exam classes, coming back one day early without students at the start of the year, monthly staff meetings. They're just a few of the things I have heard.

The ASTI has examples of how it can be done in their Nuacht.

This type of thing has to be done in my school anyway. So if you look at it, from my perspective at least now I will be credited with 23 of work instead of only 22 hours per week!

Toto Wolfcastle

Art Teacher wrote: »

This type of thing has to be done in my school anyway. So if you look at it, from my perspective at least now I will be credited with 23 of work instead of only 22 hours per week!

I think most schools do most of those things already. It's just handy to use them for the 33 hours.

Art Teacher

Yes it is handy use for the 33 hours.

And it poses a question and if it not used for the 33 hours then it makes the work of doing open nights, extra PT meetings and extra staff meetings seem cheap and lacking in recognition.

In the present climate, where the value of our work is being counted on an abacus as 23 hours pw, we should insist on recognition for the real amount of hours.

In my opinion the Croke Park Hour should have been a few more hours!

doc_17

If (or when) our pay is cut again what do people think will happen these croke park hours? Will we still be forced to do them? Or do people believe that they become null and void as the govrrnment has breached its end of the deal?

Flashgordon197

doc_17 wrote: »

If (or when) our pay is cut again what do people think will happen these croke park hours? Will we still be forced to do them? Or do people believe that they become null and void as the govrrnment has breached its end of the deal?

You should have read the documents presented by your union. They all make it clear that if pay is cut-Croke park and all its bull are gone. If teachers want to provide Labour for free thats their business but if we dont start kicking up a fuss about the necessary extras we do, they will continue to walk over us.
Some tasks are essential others not so. A class master is essential-a drama group not so. Kicking up a fuss means withdrawing from these essential activities-eventually the Department will hear a chorus of protest from Principals. Eventually they might change. Look at what happened over substitution. I dont expect to be paid as a class master but I do not expect to be dragged in for bull **** hours that were dreamt up by a hack from the Sunday Indo. Schools needed more planning yes-but not 33 hours of it.

Keep doing essential activities for free = Door mat

E.T.

Where did the extra hour idea come from?

byhookorbycrook

E.T. wrote: »

Where did the extra hour idea come from?

As a way of getting rid of posts, I'd say. Mc Carthy , I think?

E.T.

It's such a random and ineffective idea. All it's doing is fostering resentment and bickering among staff all over the country.

carolmon

It will be interesting to see if CID and permanent teachers will object to the hourly p.t. teacher being asked to work these hours.

It's already happened in our school (staff days/ parent teacher meetings etc that we are expected to attend have already been planned) and we'll end up doing basically the full quota of the 33 hours although the unions say we should be exempt from this.

I doubt many hourly rate part time teachers will challenge the principals on this as it's basically ruining your chances of hours the following year.

I think this is one of the greatest injustices of the Croke Park deal, the people on the least secure and lowest paid contracts will be even worse off under the implementation of these terms.

I may sound cynical but I think once again the unions will work to protect the upper posts and not care too much about this issue for the p.t. hourly teachers, ie I'm constantly hearing at meetings about the union absolutely refusing to have and post holders duties filled by these hours because of the union directive , but there's no outcry over the union directive being ignored in the case of part time hourly teachers.

implausible

carolmon wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if CID and permanent teachers will object to the hourly p.t. teacher being asked to work these hours.

It's already happened in our school (staff days/ parent teacher meetings etc that we are expected to attend have already been planned) and we'll end up doing basically the full quota of the 33 hours although the unions say we should be exempt from this.

I doubt many hourly rate part time teachers will challenge the principals on this as it's basically ruining your chances of hours the following year.

I think this is one of the greatest injustices of the Croke Park deal, the people on the least secure and lowest paid contracts will be even worse off under the implementation of these terms.

Get onto your school rep and have a meeting called of part-time members with the P and D.P. present and have the agreement discussed. Have you brought this up at a branch meeting? It is there in black and white that those hours are pro-rata.

Parent-teacher meetings (3 of them) are not part of the agreement; you'd have to do them anyway.

Flashgordon197

carolmon wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if CID and permanent teachers will object to the hourly p.t. teacher being asked to work these hours.

It's already happened in our school (staff days/ parent teacher meetings etc that we are expected to attend have already been planned) and we'll end up doing basically the full quota of the 33 hours although the unions say we should be exempt from this.

I doubt many hourly rate part time teachers will challenge the principals on this as it's basically ruining your chances of hours the following year.

I think this is one of the greatest injustices of the Croke Park deal, the people on the least secure and lowest paid contracts will be even worse off under the implementation of these terms.

I may sound cynical but I think once again the unions will work to protect the upper posts and not care too much about this issue for the p.t. hourly teachers, ie I'm constantly hearing at meetings about the union absolutely refusing to have and post holders duties filled by these hours because of the union directive , but there's no outcry over the union directive being ignored in the case of part time hourly teachers.

What you have written above is false. There is no "union directive" about post holder duties being filled by Croke Park. Thats Part of the Croke Park agreement. The Department-not the union (s) insisted on that. The ASTI wanted voluntary activities and these posts hours filled under Croke Park. They failed but succeeded in getting a full contract review buried.

Will people please read the actual agreement before posting misleading statements. This is not a personal attack on anybody just looking for people to read the agreement.

carolmon

All I know is that our union rep was very adamant in the meeting that none of the 33 hours were to be used to fill duties previously carried out by postholders, he was insistent the union would not allow this.

I asked re the Tui guideline that hourly paid teachers were not to be included in this agreement but was told by management that the dept of education didn't accept this, so I'm none the wiser, which is basically what a lot of people feel re these hours.........confusion!

implausible

carolmon wrote: »

I asked re the Tui guideline that hourly paid teachers were not to be included in this agreement but was told by management that the dept of education didn't accept this, so I'm none the wiser, which is basically what a lot of people feel re these hours.........confusion!

I've said it already - you need a union meeting in your school or you need to go to a branch one to get this clarified in your school. If you are a casual sub, then you don't work the hours, if non-casual, I presume you work the hours which crop up during the non-casual contract and if you are PRPT, you work the extra hours pro-rata (i.e. if you are on 11 hours for the year, you work an extra 16 1/2 hours).

implausible

After another meeting about a meeting here. Has every school decided how to use the hours yet? There was a row today over whether to come back early or do 4 extra evenings of 1 1/2 hour meetings.

What are other schools doing?

Pjays

We have had 3 early morning meetings now over the last week. Two were subject planning and one on I.T. We also had one last week for an hour after school. Next week, we have a two hour after school staff meeting. That is six hours as we were told we had to do another hour as part of our staff meetings. This hour supposedly isn't part of the 5 additional hours.

Next year, we're going back early to make up two days, roughly around 15 hours. There was talk of a Saturday development day also! So we have 18 hours still to decide upon.

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

After another meeting about a meeting here. Has every school decided how to use the hours yet? There was a row today over whether to come back early or do 4 extra evenings of 1 1/2 hour meetings.

What are other schools doing?

We have, more or less. Had another meeting about it today (and we've already done our five hours :mad:) as our initial proposal was rejected.

So it looks like we're coming back a day early which makes up 6 hours. Of the few flexible days off we have in the year, another one of those is going to be used up so that's another 6 hours. Both of those days are going to be used for inservice, planning etc.

There's going to be some used for staff meetings, an open night, some after school planning and at this stage my head is so fried after this evenings meeting I can't remember what else.

dg647

I would be very slow to come back early. If/when we get another pay cut I presume that this deal will be thrown out. If that happens this December in the budget then we will be after giving them that day, how easy will it be to get back?

I would not be in any rush to do a lot of the hours in the 1st/2nd term.

rainbowtrout

dg647 wrote: »

I would be very slow to come back early. If/when we get another pay cut I presume that this deal will be thrown out. If that happens this December in the budget then we will be after giving them that day, how easy will it be to get back?

I would not be in any rush to do a lot of the hours in the 1st/2nd term.

While that's true the other argument for that (which is what came up at our meeting today) is if all of the school planning is left to the final term how can a school justify planning for the year when the year is over?

A proposal put forward today at our meeting was to have a whole week/two weeks at the start where we stay back every evening and get the hours out of the way. This was where we had about 12-14 hours left to allocate when a variety of other things were already decided on.

That idea was very quickly thrown out as it would be perceived as a box ticking exercise if all planning for the year was done in a very short period of time with no allowance made for changes that may happen over the course of a school year. A whole school evaluation for example.

implausible

dg647 wrote: »

I would be very slow to come back early.

As was our staff.....until we realised that coming in on Friday 26th August meant four less evening staff/planning meetings!

What's wrecking my head here is that my 'everything by the book' principal and like-minded CEO want all planning done at the same time. It's completely impractical and goes to show that it is merely a box-ticking exercise.

Also, she insists that staff members who are away on school business e.g. LET/KEY programmes make up the hours they have missed. Who in their right mind would take away a group if that's going to be the attitude?

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

Also, she insists that staff members who are away on school business e.g. LET/KEY programmes make up the hours they have missed. Who in their right mind would take away a group if that's going to be the attitude?

Well that's just daft.

We had suggested as part of our hours to keep 5 hours flexible to allow teachers to do inservice in their own time, they would have to get certification and hand it in to the principal. At least this would mean people would go to relevant inservice in their subject area that would benefit them.

That got shot down by our CEO who said it had to be group inservice/activity.

Toto Wolfcastle

Tbh from reading this thread and from attending meetings in my own school it seems that everyone has a different idea of what is allowed and what is not allowed. It's completely ridiculous.