Common "beliefs" that annoy you

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

It wasn't comfortable from where I'm sitting! Its also beside the point. The point being debated is the gap between the top 2 and the rest.

No it's actually exactly my point.

flahavaj wrote: »

Realistically its pretty likely City's financial prowess will have them challenging sooner rather than later. I see no one in Spain stepping up to the mark anytime soon. Obviously any point being made about the future has an element of speculation about it, but i think most resonable analysis will come to the same conclusion.

No relevance at all this. A shiek could buy UD Lanzarote in the summer. Defining competition based on who has won the league over the last few years, yields similar results to La Liga.

flahavaj wrote: »

I'm not arguing performance in Europe, I'm arguing the gap between Barca/Madrid and the rest.

Sigh, maybe you should read my post again and slower? Not too hard to understand for ya is it?

flahavaj wrote: »

Look at the original point I made, and stick to debating that. Cheers. You've really supplied nothing to duspute my statement that there is a wider gap between the top 2 in Spain and the rest and the top 2 in England and the rest. Because you can't.

Yes, so two teams can reastically win all 3 leagues. Thanks. You have shown no proof otherwise, nor can you.

Blazer

Sappy404 wrote: »

That playing extra time in one leg of a two-legged tie is fair on the team at home because they get an extra 30 minutes of home advantage.
.

I would have thought the away team would have the advantage....because of away goals

KaiserGunner

Ush1 wrote: »

So because Man United and Chelsea can't hammer teams it's discernably more competitive? Which Chelsea actually were doing last season, Wigan 8 nil I recall among others. 7 nils etc...

The reality is a Man United widely thought of as fairly average side by their standards has comfortably won the league yet again.

You can waffle on all you like about City but it's speculation. Reality is 2 teams have a realistic chance of winning all 3 leagues.

If you want to argue competitiveness, at least Spain can often throw other teams into European competition and they can actually do well. How long was the top four a sure thing in England?

Deluded indeed.

Im slightly confused here? Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Fulham and Middlesbrough have done very well in europe over the past 5 or 6 seasons.

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

No it's actually exactly my point.



No relevance at all this. A shiek could buy UD Lanzarote in the summer. Defining competition based on who has won the league over the last few years, yields similar results to La Liga.



Sigh, maybe you should read my post again and slower? Not too hard to understand for ya is it?



Yes, so two teams can reastically win all 3 leagues. Thanks. You have shown no proof otherwise, nor can you.

You're not prepared to debate my initial statement at all are you? My point wasn't about who can realistically win the league. It was about the gap between the top 2 and the rest in both leagues. I don't dispute the fact that Utd and Chelsea generally have won and generally compete for the PL every year. What I am saying is that there is a smaller gap between them and the rest compared to the divide in Spain. You keep on harping about one point which I haven't disputed, while ignoring the initial point I have re-iterated over and over again.

Your main argument simply centres on stating over and over that Chelsea and Utd are the top 2 regularly in England. Mine is that it is quite possible to accept this while acknowledging that they're not half as far ahead of the rest as Barca/Madrid are in Spain.

Its obvious your intention is to muddy the waters and blur the boundaries of the argumennt because the fundamental reality is that you cannot give a reasonable argument to dispute the fact that the gap between the Big Two in Spain is much wider than the gap between Utd/Chelsea and the rest in England. I see right through you, Ush1. I'm wise to your tricks.

Ush1

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Im slightly confused here? Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Fulham and Middlesbrough have done very well in europe over the past 5 or 6 seasons.

I meant that the top four was so set in stone in England up until last season. Spain also had a quite a few actualy winners (what people seem to be overlooking) in the Uefa. Atleti, Sevilla back to back, etc...

Sappy404

Sc@recrow wrote: »

I would have thought the away team would have the advantage....because of away goals

That's just it. The argument I've heard when there's a suggestion that the away team have an advantage with an extra 30 mins to score is along the lines of "well, the home team get home advantage for that 30 minutes" as if this was as fair as having 30 minutes to score a critical away goal. If home advantage is equal to away goal advantage, there'd be no need for two legs.

MR NINE

Des wrote: »

name a keeper who hasn't, please.



Who?

Obviously every keeper makes mistakes at some point. I don't mean basic handling errors necessarily, I mean general unconvincing goalkeeping, like against Switzerland in the World Cup. I'm not saying he's crap, he's obviously a great keeper, I just don't think he's the best around. I would personally rather have Reina, Van Der Sar or Buffon keeping my goal ahead of him. Also Neuer and Cesar have both looked very impressive whenever I've watched them but I haven't watched them enough to judge properly, certainly in the case of Neuer anyway.

I'm just stating my opinion, there seems to be a "common belief" that Casillas is the undisputed best in the world and anyone who disagrees has no idea what they're talking about. I'm just pointing out how that sentiment bugs me a bit.

Zebra3

Frisbee wrote: »

When Rooney kicks the legs out from under someone or has a strop it's because of his 'love of the game'. But if a foreign player does it it's cynical, petulant and ruining the game.

It's not a common belief. It's the xenephobia of the British media.

Des wrote: »

That Barcelona are the second coming and all other styles of football are inferior.

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

So who do you think had a superior style of playing?

premierstone

Ush1 wrote: »

I meant that the top four was so set in stone in England up until last season. Spain also had a quite a few actualy winners (what people seem to be overlooking) in the Uefa. Atleti, Sevilla back to back, etc...

Put it this was Ush, imagine your a bookie and a punter comes in, he wants to back Rangers and Celtic wont finish 1 and 2 in SPL, Barca and Real wont finish 1 and 2 in La Liga and Man Utd and Chelsea wont finish 1 and 2 in EPL.

What prices would you be willing to lay on each of these 3 individual bets and I think your answer (if your being honest) will show you what utter drivel you are spouting!

evil_seed

That Arsenal are a team of "kids"

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

You're not prepared to debate my initial statement at all are you? My point wasn't about who can realistically win the league. It was about the gap between the top 2 and the rest in both leagues. I don't dispute the fact that Utd and Chelsea generally have won and generally compete for the PL every year. What I am saying is that there is a smaller gap between them and the rest compared to the divide in Spain. You keep on harping about one point which I haven't disputed, while ignoring the initial point I have re-iterated over and over again.

Your main argument simply centres on stating over and over that Chelsea and Utd are the top 2 regularly in England. Mine is that it is quite possible to accept this while acknowledging that they're not half as far ahead of the rest as Barca/Madrid are in Spain.

Its obvious your intention is to muddy the waters and blur the boundaries of the argumennt because the fundamental reality is that you cannot give a reasonable argument to dispute the fact that the gap between the Big Two in Spain is much wider than the gap between Utd/Chelsea and the rest in England. I see right through you, Ush1. I'm wise to your tricks.

No trick. Yes, you're harping on about gap between 3rd and 2nd. You are clinging to this straw. The point is there is more to competitive than this.
For an EPL fan to call La Liga not competitive and then to think that in a real, relevant sense England is much different, is laughable.

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

No trick. Yes, you're harping on about gap between 3rd and 2nd. The point is there is more to competitive than this. You are clinging to this straw.

For an EPL fan to call La Liga not competitive and then to think that in a real, relevant sense England is much different, is laughable.

Again this is a totally different debate to the one we were having (or at least i was attempting to have!). You are now talking about what defines competitiveness and the different levels of competitiveness within the two leagues. You took my initial statement about the gap between the top 2 and the rest as an attack on the relative quality and competitiveness of La Liga. It wasn't. It was an observation grounded in undeniable fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ush1

premierstone wrote: »

Put it this was Ush, imagine your a bookie and a punter comes in, he wants to back Rangers and Celtic wont finish 1 and 2 in SPL, Barca and Real wont finish 1 and 2 in La Liga and Man Utd and Chelsea wont finish 1 and 2 in EPL.

What prices would you be willing to lay on each of these 3 individual bets and I think your answer (if your being honest) will show you what utter drivel you are spouting!

Umm, I'm not sure but they'd be very, very close. Chelsea and Man U would be odds on by long way aswell.

If I was to call one likely, I'd call all three likely.

Sir Gallagher

MichaelM1987 wrote: »

That Lucas is actually a good player now just because his form has improved.

It's not called form when a player is improving consistantly over two seasons.

Anyway one that always bugged me was Dunphy years ago saying Puyol was no great shake defensively and he was past it, since then he's won everything in world football, not bad for someone who's past it.

premierstone

Ush1 wrote: »

Umm, I'm not sure but they'd be very, very close. Chelsea and Man U would be odds on by long way aswell.

If I was to call one likely, I'd call all three likely.

Ok what price will you give me that its not a Chelsea Man utd RFC next season?? I would be very interested in this bet BTW?

_blank_

Zebra3 wrote: »

So who do you think had a superior style of playing?

I don't think one style is necessarily "superior" to another, each has it's merits, it's snobbish and elitish to say that a flowing passing game is "superior" to a rigid defensive game, especially when a team of brilliant technically gifted players is up against a team of players who don't have the same array of skills who decide to take a defensive, containing approach.

Phrases like "park the bus" grate on me, it's such a negative, almost derogatory term, used by football snobs who think all others should crumble before the team du jour because they play a passing, flowing style. How dare the opposition try to stifle the good players and passing moves to try to grind out a result, they should just open themselves up and get hammered.

It's a ridiculous attitude.

premierstone

Des wrote: »

I don't think one style is necessarily "superior" to another, each has it's merits, it's snobbish and elitish to say that a flowing passing game is "superior" to a rigid defensive game, especially when a team of brilliant technically gifted players is up against a team of players who don't have the same array of skills who decide to take a defensive, containing approach.

Phrases like "park the bus" grate on me, it's such a negative, almost derogatory term, used by football snobs who think all others should crumble before the team du jour because they play a passing, flowing style. How dare the opposition try to stifle the good players and passing moves to try to grind out a result, they should just open themselves up and get hammered.

It's a ridiculous attitude.

Ahh I see now tis all clear why you follow the LOI none of that flowing passing pansies game there heh

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

Again this is a totally different debate to the one we were having (or at least i was attempting to have!). You are now talking about what defines competitiveness and the different levels of competitiveness within the two leagues. You took my initial statement about the gap between the top 2 and the rest as an attack on the relative quality and competitiveness of La Liga. It wasn't. It was an observation grounded in undeniable fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not at all. We were talking about monopolies and indeed, duopolies on league positions within the league.

You mentioned gap between 2nd and 3rd in Spain, I mentioned the long static "top 4" in England.

Helix

MichaelM1987 wrote: »

The belief from some that Martin O'Neill isn't a world class manager.

the belief that he is

Ush1

premierstone wrote: »

Ok what price will you give me that its not a Chelsea Man utd RFC next season?? I would be very interested in this bet BTW?

I'm not giving you any price. Who are you???

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

Not at all. We were talking about monopolies and indeed, duopolies on league positions within the league.

You mentioned gap between 2nd and 3rd in Spain, I mentioned the long static "top 4" in England.

Bottom line -

Which league has the wider gap between the top 2 and the rest - PL or La Liga?

In which league is there more likely to be a narrowing of the gap in the immediate future?

This is the one and only point I have debated in this thread with you so far. If we cut to the chase and you answer that qustion honestly we can put it to bed either way and not derial this great thread any further by going round in circles.

Fr Tod Umptious

This is really a great thread, thanks OP

here is another one

"television has ruined football"

This usually comes from people who watch their club on TV at least twice a week and cannot remember the pre Sky days when you were lucky to see your club twice a month

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

Bottom line -

Which league has the wider gap between the top 2 and the rest - PL or La Liga?

In which league is there more likely to be a narrowing of the gap in the immediate future?

This is the one and only point I have debated in this thread with you so far. If we cut to the chase and you answer that qustion honestly we can put it to bed either way and not derial this great thread any further by going round in circles.

PL. This was never my point though. The question is does that suddenly make England a relatively competitive league?

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

PL. This was never my point though. The question is does that suddenly make England a relatively competitive league?

Thanks.

In response to your question - not necessarily.

But it does make the comparison to the SPL, which you alluded to in your very first post in this thread at least somewhat understandable in the context of there being a gap between the Big Two and the rest.

Sin é.

Zebra3

Des wrote: »

I don't think one style is necessarily "superior" to another, each has it's merits, it's snobbish and elitish to say that a flowing passing game is "superior" to a rigid defensive game, especially when a team of brilliant technically gifted players is up against a team of players who don't have the same array of skills who decide to take a defensive, containing approach.

Each has merits, but surely there is one that you prefer over the other?

I prefer (and see it as superior) watching teams playing passing attacking football without resorting to cheating, however I can also respect the ability of a team to defend as you suggest without resorting to cheating.

Des wrote: »

Phrases like "park the bus" grate on me, it's such a negative, almost derogatory term, used by football snobs who think all others should crumble before the team du jour because they play a passing, flowing style. How dare the opposition try to stifle the good players and passing moves to try to grind out a result, they should just open themselves up and get hammered.

It's a ridiculous attitude.

Phrases like "park the bus" are trotted out in the media by moronic ex-pros trying to sound intelligent, and usually repeated by people who have no understanding of the game.

TheBunk1

Gareth Bale is worth 40-50 million, or more!!!

Arsene Wenger has no money to spend

Paul Green is good enough to play international football

Next year will be Liverpool's year

premierstone

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm not giving you any price. Who are you???

Thats what I thought oh and I'm the internet police, calling out wafflers, consider yourself charged

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

Thanks.

In response to your question - not necessarily.

But it does make the comparison to the SPL, which you alluded to in your very first post in this thread at least somewhat understandable in the context of there being a gap between the Big Two and the rest.

Sin é.

Comparison to the SPL isn't my point, it's that these 2 leagues aren't competitive and England is sooooo open.

Ush1

premierstone wrote: »

Thats what I thought oh and I'm the internet police, calling out wafflers, consider yourself charged

What am I waffling about exactly? I've never said that Spain or Scotland are as competitive as England.

Or do you actually just spout ****e and not read?

premierstone

TheBunk1 wrote: »

Gareth Bale is worth 40-50 million, or more!!!

Arsene Wenger has no money to spend

Paul Green is good enough to play international football

Next year will be Liverpool's year

Yeah Bale is horribly overrated.

Wenger definitely has very little funds available in comparison to hes rivals.

Title of the thread says ''Common'' so Paul Green being of international class hardly qualifies as only Trap seems to belive this, and perhaps Mammy Green.

Yeah it doesnt take much for the Liverpool fans to get their hopes up, bit like the english national team.

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

Comparison to the SPL isn't my point, it's that these 2 leagues aren't competitive and England is sooooo open.

Well thats not an unreasonable viewpoint to take. I don't see your need to take umbrage with my assertion that the gap between Top 2 and the rest was wider in Spain. Its a point you could have simply accepted while easily maintaining your initial stance.

pickarooney

Italian football is boring.

African teams are defensively naive.

'Soccer' is an American word.

theoneeyedman

that a player 'raising his hands' to another player should get him sent off!
that 'english' players don't dive(handy townsend said something last week during barca/real about thankfully we don't see this week in week out back 'ome)
penalies should be given because 'there was contact' between the players...socce is not a non contact sport (even though it is fast becoming one)

strawberryb0y

League of Ireland is ****e

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

Well thats not an unreasonable viewpoint to take. I don't see your need to take umbrage with my assertion that the gap between Top 2 and the rest was wider in Spain. Its a point you could have simply accepted while easily maintaining your initial stance.

Umbrage eh?

flahavaj wrote:

There is less of a gulf between the top 2 in England and the rest in fairness.

Ush1 wrote:

Yeah...

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

Umbrage eh?

You debated it for 4 pages! (Or at least I tried to and you took my statement as being something it wasn't ).

Blatter

Serie A is ''boring''

Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't turn up for the big games

All Brazilians are technically gifted

Barcelona or Real Madrid players can't defend

David Beckham was always an average player

The USA will win the World Cup in the near future

stumpypeeps

That fans of Liverpool think they will win the league "next year".

By and large Liverpool fans are very knowledgeable about football in general and have a fair idea where the team stands in the greater scheme of things.

That said I have no doubt we will win the League next season with "King Kenny" back at the helm.

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

You debated it for 4 pages! (Or at least I tried to and you took my statement as being something it wasn't ).

Have a look back over the posts.

flahavaj wrote:

In short, answering your question doesn't really lend the topic the depth of analysis that is required to truly get a picture of the state of the two leagues.

Sort of ironic really.:pac:

stumpypeeps

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Serie A is ''boring''

Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't turn up for the big games

All Brazilians are technically gifted

Barcelona or Real Madrid players can't defend

David Beckham was always an average player

The USA will win the World Cup in the near future

He turns up for all the big games, its just he's usually sh!te in them.

Blatter

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't turn up for the big games

stumpypeeps wrote: »

He turns up for all the big games, its just he's usually sh!te in them.

QED

Mr. Presentable

Bad refereeing decisions in favour of a side "balance out" over a season.

An close rivals goal not given is not balanced by a penalty not awarded against a club 15 places below you.

stumpypeeps

Cristiano Ronaldo is a big game player.

Paully D

That football isn't corrupt.

eugeneious

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Cristiano Ronaldo is a big game player.

2008 CL final, 2009 CL quarter final vs Porto, CL Semi final against Arsenal 2009 and the Copa Del Rey final. And they're just the ones that spring to mind.

stumpypeeps

eugeneious wrote: »

2008 CL final, 2009 CL quarter final vs Porto, CL Semi final against Arsenal 2009 and the Copa Del Rey final. And they're just the ones that spring to mind.

How did he play in the last two Clasico's? When the pressure was really on?

Fuhrer

stumpypeeps wrote: »

How did he play in the last two Clasico's? When the pressure was really on?

The pressure wasnt really on in the Champions League final?

eugeneious

That Wenger deserves more time at Arsenal.

That Wenger has a good record in the transfer market.

That Cristiano Ronaldo isn't a big game player.

That Messi must win the WC to be the greatest.

That Ashley Cole is the best LB in the PL

flahavaj

stumpypeeps wrote: »

How did he play in the last two Clasico's? When the pressure was really on?

No worse than anyone else on his team really.

eugeneious

stumpypeeps wrote: »

How did he play in the last two Clasico's? When the pressure was really on?

In that case I suppose there is not a single Real Madrid player who is a big game player.