Our "beautiful" country, one-off houses and derelict towns

MT

Does anyone else share my annoyance with the discription people fall back on when they seem to have concluded that so much about Ireland sucks? 'Ah, but sure atleast 'tis a beautiful country', 'no matter about the economy, we still have our countryside'... I'm paraphrasing here.

I've holidayed and travelled quite a bit around northern Europe and I can only say that there's now a stark difference in the appearance of Ireland compared to Denmark, Germany, or even Wales. The other countries with verdant, lush landscapes like our own have preserved the beauty of their countryside by only allowing those who work the land to live in it. They've done this with such shocking/radical policies such as green belts, national parks, and a PLANNING policy that actually PLANS were people live.

In Ireland, by contrast, for decades now there has been a free-for-all. With the exception of mountain tops it seems that no land is off limits for housebuilding. As a result there's a shocking lack of unspoilt rural scenary left. Leave a town and cowshed sized houses seem to follow you up every road and graze in just about every field. Coming back from Europe now it hits me how so much of the countryside here is now utterly fugly.

Does anyone else find the swamping of the rural landscape with one-off houses - regardless of size - god awful unsightly? And if not, have they ever travelled to Denmark, Sweden, Wales, France, Germany, Scotland, England, etc.? And if they have, and they still think 'aw but shure Ireland's beautiful and picturesque', do they think that the preserved landscapes in these places, free from housing, are somehow more unsightly than what we've contrived to allow happen here?

And unlike their landscapes which will be preserved indefinately unless there is a drastic change in policy, our's continue to become ever more suburbanized. Each year thousands more one-off houses receive "planning permission" (there's a laughable term if ever there was one). I've read that since 1970 about 450,000 one-offs have been built across the Republic, with the guts of atleast another 100,000 across NI. At what point does anyone say stop? Or will people migrate out of towns and settlements indefinately over the coming century until the island's entire 6 million people live in one-offs? Without planning restrictions on where you can settle what's to stop such a prospect coming about if the will is there?

You might think that certain areas aren't too bad now but what will they look like after another few decades of one-offs and holiday homes? There seems to be no urgency that this is an on going process. The Cotswalds will look as they do 30 years from now but just about everywhere in Ireland is in a state of flux.

One thing I do now when travelling through the untouched scenary in other parts of Europe is wonder to myself what it would look like if the area had been under the control of an Irish county council for the past half century? Frankly, I shudder.

Why is it that decades ago a German, Welshman*, Frenchman, Swede, Austrian, Dane, Scotsman, Englishman, Norwegian, etc. could look at an untouched valley in their respective countries and think 'we should use a planning process to preserve such natural beauty for the whole nation for generations to come'?

Whereas the corresponding Irish attitude seems to have been, well, take your pick... 'jayz, great place for a site'; 'me uncle Seanie left me land in that there valley and to hell with anybody trying to stop me building'; 'I'm from a different valley so it's none of my business what they do in this one'; 'da left the farm to the five of us and although only Ciaran farms we all wanna house'; 'I wanna holiday home there'; 'sure without houses all over it it doesn't really look like proper countryside'; 'who do I have pull with to get planning?'; 'it's a disgrace that people are being hearded into the big schmoke, we need a new build house in every other field'; 'we've got to build up the rural population, we've just gotta, there should be a waiver from development restrictions in this area'; 'we need a factory in that valley to attract young people'; 'sure think a' the local builders, what'll they do for work?'; 'sure people up in Dublin are trying to ethnically cleanse the counryside of the rural folk', etc.

Why is Ireland so different (no doubt patriots will tell us that's a good thing to)? Why do people persist in the fantasy that this is still the beautiful country that it undoubtedly was in the early 20th century?

*or woman

Dravokivich

Nope

ballsymchugh

frank.

orourkeda

As someone once said if the dutch had Ireland they'd feed the world and if the irish had the netherlands they'd all drown

martic

Is this your first book to write?

squod

Ireland compared to Denmark, Germany, or even Wales.

Lol. Stopped reading about there. Know where I'd go .........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU6VBTGjYkk

claddy

A lot of people in Ireland like to stay away from urban area's as they try to avoid condesending people like you.

doomed

"You can't eat scenery" must be one of the most stupid comments ever made. Easy to see why the golden goose fairytale is not irish. We'd have eaten him straight away.

gigino

i agree with the original poster 100%

In time everyone will see the folly of so much one off housing scattered everywhere. It is bad for our environment, is slowly ruining our tourism industry, and is not economical in terms of services, post etc etc
Too much fossil fuel is spent commuting / going to shops etc.

amacachi

You can dere-lict my balls.

Duckworth_Luas

I lost interest at Chapter 1 Verse 1, "In the beginning God created boredom"

mikemac

We have one of these threads over in Politics and there is always one going over in Infrastructure
The OP is here since 2004 so knows this better then me. But choose to come start a thread in After Hours instead

You don't live in rural Ireland and own any land. Maybe the best solution is create national parks so the city folk can go there at weekends and not dictate what other people and councils do.

Do you remember Mayo Council or Clare Council dictating to Dublin County Council? I don't. So worry about your own area city boy

An Taisce is an organization for busy bodies, join them

starbelgrade

orourkeda wrote: »

As someone once said if the dutch had Ireland they'd feed the world and if the irish had the netherlands they'd all drown

An amusing quote, but like the OP's post, while there's a certain amount of truth to it, it really doesn't tell the full story.

Firstly, one-off housing isn't as easy to get planning for as you would think. There was a time when you could pull a politician to do a favour for you to get planning through, but there are now strict guidelines for rural development which means that there must be a local need for one-off housing & all new houses must be built in relation to their natural environment in terms of design and site suitability for services.

Secondly, 65% of Ireland's land is used for the purposes of agriculture, with a further 10% of that being used for forestry. That means that only a quarter of Ireland's land mass is used for all other uses ie., housing, commercial, industrial etc.

And thirdly, agriculture in Ireland accounts for 3% of GDP, which is twice that of the EU average. Our beef exports alone account for 60% of all beef consumed in France.

So while it may look like Ireland is totally covered in houses & that we can barely produce enough food to feed ourselves, nothing could really be further from the truth.

Duckworth_Luas

orourkeda wrote: »

As someone once said if the dutch had Ireland they'd feed the world and if the irish had the netherlands they'd all drown

Nobody important ever said that.

charlemont

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Nobody important ever said that.

Nobody important needed to say it as everybody knows its very true.

Daegerty

Nothing wrong with one-off houses, its nice to think that people are living in these places and making the most of them. A lot of them built during the tiger years are quite ugly but thats another story.

Maybe there are a few too many in places but really they don't bother me

mikemac

orourkeda wrote: »

As someone once said if the dutch had Ireland they'd feed the world and if the irish had the netherlands they'd all drown

charlemont wrote: »

Nobody important needed to say it as everybody knows its very true.

More self hate, I suppose we can't achieve anything in Ireland....

You're forgetting the Dutch had a boom and bust on the price of tulip bulbs.
Even a housing boom and bust makes more sense then that, stupid Dutch.

And I suppose you missed when Ireland was a poor nation emerging from civil war we had the largest hydro electric plant in the world in Ardnacrushna. Just to show what can be achieved.

Daegerty

feelingstressed wrote: »

And I suppose you missed when Ireland was a poor nation emerging from civil war we had the largest hydro electric plant in the world in Ardnarcrushna. Just to show what can be achieved.

Very little can be achieved nowadays and its mostly down to inferiority complex and lack of morale.

If a new hydroelectric plant had to be built or a nuclear one it would be contracted out to some massive foreign company with the notion that we couldn't pull together the skills and the resources needed for it ourselves.

HalloweenJack

OP, I've been around Wales and England and they do have plenty of stand alone houses there. Just get the train from Holyhead to Crewe and you'll see plenty of them. Or you can drive around the Lake District or the Moors of Yorkshire where there are stand alone houses that are hundreds of years old.

IIRC, they have, admittedly less, stand alone houses in Spain too. This isn't a specifically Irish thing so stop banging on as if it is.

starbelgrade

Daegerty wrote: »

A lot of them built during the tiger years are quite ugly but thats another story.

That's very true. There was a time where people were buying plans off the internet or from the likes of "Bungalow Bliss", then giving them straight to some plank of an engineer to submit them for planning, without any concept of design or any thought for the Irish vernacular buildings or care for the surrounding landscape.

The best thing about the "downturn" is that many county council planning departments have been very active in recent years in cutting down on this type of thing & have actively being producing guidelines on more suitable & sustainable styles of building.

MT

feelingstressed, there's definately an element of Irish parochialism that sit's uneasily with the idea of liberal democracy. Democracy is communal. We don't all go our own way like cats at a crossroads.

The entire community elects a government to govern for all of us. If people in Mayo decided to suspend the right to trail by jury, should Dubliners keep their noses out? If folks in Roscommon wish to restrict the franchise solely to men, no business of Dubs? Kerry people think there should be no speed limits, hell, who are the rest of us to say otherwise. Heck, if people in Donegal want to drink and drive, that's up to them and solely them.

Why unearth should someone who lives 5 miles from a piece of land have more say on how the law applies to it than someone who live 50 miles away? Or do you have a particular distance in mind for the radius of your democratic exclusion zone? Could Dubs comment on land use in north Fingal, if not Kerry? And what about citizens living in Cork city, is their democratic say suspended a mile or so outside city limits?

Well, we all know where you would have stood in the American civil war. "Butt out Lincoln and don't you be dictating to the Georgia state government. Worry about your own area Abe, we're not making your boys own slaves. So why should you tell us who we can and can't own?"

You do realise that Ireland is so small that many people in other countries would find it laughable that someone here could be considered too remote to have a say on what goes on in other parts?

If oil was discovered in Dublin bay should the corporation tax and other taxes levied be spent solely in the Fair City?

You don't live in rural Ireland and own any land.

So you supported the policy of the Unionist Stormont government when it restricted the franchise to property owners? After all, if you didn't own any land there why should you have had a say?

Oh, and by the way - not that it should give my opinion more weight than anyone else's - I do live in rural Ireland. Through no choice of my own, I grew up in the equivalent of a one-off - a very old renovated rural house. And I now live in a small rural town.

Daegerty

starbelgrade wrote: »

That's very true. There was a time where people were buying plans off the internet or from the likes of "Bungalow Bliss", then giving them straight to some plank of an engineer to submit them for planning, without any concept of design or any thought for the Irish vernacular buildings or care for the surrounding landscape.

The best thing about the "downturn" is that many county council planning departments have been very active in recent years in cutting down on this type of thing & have actively being producing guidelines on more suitable & sustainable styles of building.

I think a house should be designed to blend in with the landscape not a huge fck off of a house surrounded by an area of Tarmac in the middle of nowhere and a '07 Navara (or a dreaded Q7 outside)

The worst has to be those fooking 'dormer' yokes. They ruin the look of any house instantly and start leaking once the 3-month warranty on your house runs out

Duckworth_Luas

charlemont wrote: »

Nobody important needed to say it as everybody knows its very true.

Really? Care to provide any proof as to its veracity?

This "quote" gets attributed to many people. Churchill, Hitler, Bismark, Thatcher, however nobody can find a source. Luckily it's found a home in AH. Here it can be repeated forever and people will believe it.

starbelgrade

Daegerty wrote: »

I think a house should be designed to blend in with the landscape not a huge fck off of a house surrounded by an area of Tarmac in the middle of nowhere and a '07 Navara (or a dreaded Q7 outside)

The worst has to be those fooking 'dormer' yokes. They ruin the look of any house instantly and start leaking once the 3-month warranty on your house runs out

A lot of rural development plans are stipulating that houses must blend into the landscape or surrounding housing & some counties have even gone so far as outlawing dormer houses.

Which, I agree is a good thing.

squod

Daegerty wrote: »

...... contracted out to some massive foreign company

You overestimate the PS. Some goon would just ring the usual yokels from Norn Iron.

Brendan Flowers

But what about my road frontage?







*Note: This comment may not make any sense, I couldnt be arsed reading the OP's entire post*

mikemac

MT wrote: »

The entire community elects a government to govern for all of us. If people in Mayo decided to suspend the right to trail by jury, should Dubliners keep their noses out? If folksá in Roscommon wish to restrict the franchise solely to men, no business of Dubs? Kerry people think there should be no speed limits, hell, who are the rest of us to say otherwise. Heck, if people in Donegal want to drink and drive, that's up to them and solely them.

You're being hysterical now.
My post was on planning, the whole thread is on planning, hey you started the thread.
Speed limits, voting rights and trial by jury? Why don't you drag in capital punishment for County Clare to go with this hysterical rant while you are at it.

MT wrote: »

Well, we all know where you would have stood in the American civil war. Butt out Lincoln and don't you be dictating to the Georgia state government. Worry about your own area Abe, we're not making your boys own slaves. So why should you tell us who we can and can't own?

Well I think the American Civil War is offtopic for this thread but yes, I would have supported the confederates and state's rights.
As did many Irish and there were Irish Confederate Regiments.

But revisionist history tells us the whole civil war was over slavery :rolleyes:

onlyrocknroll

feelingstressed wrote: »

More self hate, I suppose we can't achieve anything in Ireland....

I couldn't agree more. All self questioning and criticism is necessarily self hate, and therefore wrong. We most ask no questions about what wrong right during the boom years and get back to reckless wonderful lending.











Not necessarily agreeing with OP, just pointing out absurdity of this argument.

rainbowdrop

MT wrote: »

feelingstressed, there's definately an element of Irish parochialism that sit's uneasily with the idea of liberal democracy. Democracy is communal. We don't all go our own way like cats at a crossroads.

The entire community elects a government to govern for all of us. If people in Mayo decided to suspend the right to trail by jury, should Dubliners keep their noses out? If folks in Roscommon wish to restrict the franchise solely to men, no business of Dubs? Kerry people think there should be no speed limits, hell, who are the rest of us to say otherwise. Heck, if people in Donegal want to drink and drive, that's up to them and solely them.

Why unearth should someone who lives 5 miles from a piece of land have more say on how the law applies to it than someone who live 50 miles away? Or do you have a particular distance in mind for the radius of your democratic exclusion zone? Could Dubs comment on land use in north Fingal, if not Kerry? And what about citizens living in Cork city, is their democratic say suspended a mile or so outside city limits?

Well, we all know where you would have stood in the American civil war. "Butt out Lincoln and don't you be dictating to the Georgia state government. Worry about your own area Abe, we're not making your boys own slaves. So why should you tell us who we can and can't own?"

You do realise that Ireland is so small that many people in other countries would find it laughable that someone here could be considered too remote to have a say on what goes on in other parts?

If oil was discovered in Dublin bay should the corporation tax and other taxes levied be spent solely in the Fair City?


So you supported the policy of the Unionist Stormont government when it restricted the franchise to property owners? After all, if you didn't own any land there why should you have had a say?

Oh, and by the way - not that it should give my opinion more weight than anyone else's - I do live in rural Ireland. Through no choice of my own, I grew up in the equivalent of a one-off - a very old renovated rural house. And I now live in a small rural town.

This is After Hours OP:

http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/why4.jpg

MT

Nothing wrong with one-off houses, its nice to think that people are living in these places and making the most of them.

I don't think that making the most of a development would be a good condition for letting it pass. Would you be content if someone built a collection of twenty storey flats in several fields and filled them with tenants that made the most of them? Would it be acceptable for a developer to bulldose Trim castle and build a hotel on the site provided he could make the most of it?

ejmaztec

One off houses aren't so bad, but the construction of driveway entrances the same size as the Parthenon in front of some piddling sized house should be banned.