''Better'' Energy scheme

wirehairmax

I'm afraid this is bad news for SEAI contractors and BER assessors. I would see this as a very black day for the construction industry. The Home Energy Savings scheme was just starting to finally show benefits for contractors who have seen a rise in inquirys since the harsh winter we've just had. With nearly all the grant levels being cut with the exception of EWI, the public will be less inclined to spend more of their own money. Contractors can ill afford to cut rates and costs any more as oil and materials (expecting another price increase shortly)do not show any sign of cost reduction and we cannot ask employees to take any more cuts if we want to keep a skilled and motivated workforce. We of course could use less skilled and cheaper labour but I for one would not be happy to go down this road as quality inevitibly suffers.</SPAN>
Also the entry of semi-state companies into these schemes is also weighted against the small to medium contractor. What contractor can afford to offer a client the option of spreading the cost of energy retro-fitting over a period of 24 months? Imagine a contractor telling a supplier or sub-contractor that they will have to wait 24 months for full payment for materials or services. They also seem to be subject to a different code of conduct to ordinary contractors although the SEAI will not release the exact document to me, they have confirmed this to me verbally when I made a phone enquiry recently. I would advise anyone thinking of entering into an agreement with any of the semi-states, to read the terms and conditions very carefully. The draft from Bord Gais runs at 17 pages. It includes the client allowing permission for credit checks and charges for changing their mind after the cooling off period. Also the final cost may be more than you initially think. As I say read the T&C carefully.</SPAN>
I'm sorry for my little rant, but this has really struck a nerve. The public need to be aware that this is more cronyism and protection of semi-states and pushing private industry further down the food chain. Do you, the public really want to spend your hard earned money by further funding the greed pit that has existed in the semi-states over the last 10 years with CEO's taking high six figure salaries and inefficent upper and middle management spending hundreds of thousands on junkets and perks for themselves.
To the moderators, I appeal to you not to delete or edit my post. This deserves debate and I do not believe I am over the top in my post.

Molloyser

Your little rant is totally justified. I have issue with the fact that contractors were not consulted or informed of the changes until the very last minute. We had spent money on Marketing Material only last week with the name of the scheme and the amounts payable advertised. Who pays to replace these? I am meeting with Fergus O'Dowd, my local TD and minister of state for energy, later today. I will pass on your concerns and revert with his response!

Molloyser

I met with Minister of State for Energy today to express some concerns that I had about the new scheme. Unfortunately he had very little time to talk (even though I had an appointment). He asked for all concerns to be sent to him via e-mail. His email address is fergus.odowd@finegael.ie. He has confirmed that it was ok for me to give this email to other contractors.

AlanConnolly

Hi guys,

There is also another aspect to the 'new' SEAI scheme AKA Better Energy.
A lot of the insulation upgrade works will probably go to the Utility Companies. I have been reliably informed that BG have allready awarded the contract for cavity wall insulation to a subcontractor.

This company are based in Northern Ireland,... NOT paying Irish Tax, VAT, PAYE / PRSI etc etc. All diesel and bead are also to be bought / manufactured outside the Republic of Ireland.

So, our great government has thrown €€€ into the pot, and the Irish exchequer is not going to benefit.

Its a disgrace.


Alan Connolly

Molloyser

So let's not just sit here complaining. Get everyone you know to email Fergus O' Dowd, Pat Rabitte & Enda Kenny. If the pensioners could cause a u-turn surely we can too. Lets not let Fine Gael ruin the little business our small contractors still have!
pat.rabbitte@oireachtas.ie
enda.kenny@oireachtas.ie
fergus.odowd@finegael.ie

d'Oracle

The internet just swallowed a big post I wrote on this.
And I'm damned if I'm going to type it again.

OP I think that is largely over the top Hyperbole.

PAYS has been coming for ages.
Semi-states are not an evil empire, this isn't even in their best interests. They are being made do it.

Your criticisms of the T&C are nonsense, Do you expect a semi-state to be throwing lines of credit to people with bad credit history? Didn't the banks just prove that thats a bad idea?

Of course an energy supplier would have a different code of practice to a contractor, they practice totally different activities.

Marineinsitute

Being in the EU semi states have to follow EU procurement rules. Its not the fault of the semi states when companies outside the republic of Ireland make better offers. The onus is on Irish contractors to reduce their incredulous demands when tendering for semi state jobs.

wirehairmax

The previous 2 posters have obviously totally missed the points I am making and obviously do not have any involvement in the scheme.
The SEAI Code of conduct is a 43 page document all registered contractors have to adhere to. If the semi-states are going to be in competition with private contractors they should be subject to the same conditions. Its not anything about tendering for public works. My point about the T&C is that they should not be seen to allow credit term payments whereas other contractors have to make a declaration that they have been paid in full before the homeowner is eligible to seek payment of grant. SEAI contractors cannot use SEAI logos or say that they are approved by the SEAI on any of their marketing material. There are a number of other conditions which Bord Gais seem to be allowed to flout even though they are in direct competition to private industry and are registered on the same scheme. Bord Gais also claim to be allowed to make applications on behalf of the homeowner which is also an offence under the SEAI Code of conduct. I can see them targeting home-owners on their database with direct mail, cold-calling and door to door salespeople as they have been doing trying to get people to switch providers. We all know how pushy these salespeople are as they are mostly employed on a commission only basis. Id be interested to hear what the CIF have to say but they have been very quiet.

sydthebeat

The "Pay as You Save" scheme that Bord Gais is advertising is a separate function to the "better energy scheme".

The BES is a one off grant payment, paid after works complete, where the applicant picks up the tab for the remainder. This is extremely similar to the HES scheme that had been working quite successfully. This grant usually covers about 25-35% of the installation costs.

The PAYS function from Bord Gais, and perhaps other utility providers, is a function that is aimed at those persons who cannot afford the remainder ie 65-75% of the installation costs as a once off payment. My understanding is that the utility providers cover this excess and the applicant pays this cost over time on their utility bills, thus "paying the cost of the upgrade as they save the energy fuel costs".

Obviously if an applicant can pay off the remainder instantly after upgrade its preferable. Again, if they can arrange their own finance to pay this off, so be it. But for many persons this isnt a reality.
Its my belief that the PAYS scheme actually allows more persons access to the grant scheme that would be applicable without. This is the major point that seems to be lost here.

So contractors complaining doesnt hold any weight to me. The utility providers are taking on a risk, which obviously requires different terms and conditions.
The private contractor slice of the market still exists and will continue as it would have under the HES.
Regarding the code of conduct of the utility installer, their terms and conditions state:
"With regard to the installation of the Insulation Products, Bord Gáis Energy warrants that: the Installation Engineer has the necessary skill, training, qualification and experience to install the Insulation Products; the Installation Engineer will install the Insulation Products with due skill, care and diligence PROVIDED ALWAYS that where the Installation Engineer has complied with all the manufacturer’s instructions and guidelines and the HES Code of Practice & Standards and Specifications Guidelines as regards the installation of the Insulation Products, the Installation Engineer shall be regarded as having met the appropriate standard of skill, care and diligence; and, where materials are used for the purposes of installing the Insulation Products, they will be sound and reasonably fit for the purpose for which they are required. When completed, the Work will have improved the overall energy efficiency of the Property"


is bord gais in direct competition with private contractors?

if they are, are they not subject to the very same code of conduct as private contractors?

d'Oracle

wirehairmax wrote: »

The previous 2 posters have obviously totally missed the points I am making and obviously do not have any involvement in the scheme.

That one sweeping statement pretty much blows any semblance of credibility you had left out of the water.

If you will draw that conclusion from such little information, I can only decude that you have failed to furnish yourself with the necessary information on the rest of this issue.

You have also made some huge assumptions about what Bord Gais will indeed do which you have absolutely no basis for.

Robus

The question of equal treatment for utility companies compared to private contractors when it comes to penalty points from SEAI where works are completed under grant aided Better energy scheme is the most interesting.
Contractors are assessed on 10% of their jobs (according to one inspector today). The vast majority are getting penalty points on jobs.
If you are a utility company doing a massive amount of jobs the 12 points will be achieved VERY VERY quickly.
Or will the Utility companies be treated differently?

cookiemixer

Hi,
I am trying to locate the prior version of this. They sent out a new version (4.0) in May 2011 and I need the prior one.
Thanks.

galwaytt

Marineinsitute wrote: »

Being in the EU semi states have to follow EU procurement rules. Its not the fault of the semi states when companies outside the republic of Ireland make better offers. The onus is on Irish contractors to reduce their incredulous demands when tendering for semi state jobs.

Rubbish. The State here bends over backwards to not offend non-State bids, and at the same time attaching no weighting to the benefit's of using in-State bids.

In Germany and France, for instance, they attach a 'social dividend/benefit' weighting to bids for products and services. For instane, would the awarding of a given contract generate employment locally ? (or the converse, would awarding it bring a negative dividend........unemployment, increased social welfare etc..)

You can sum it up in two words: Buy Irish.

shanered

I second that, the government needs to wake up in relation to things like that, even the fact that they would automatically create more money for themselves by generating taxes if given to an Irish company.
If you give the job to a non-state company you lose everything.