Autumn Marathon 2011 'Seasoned' Runners thread

ecoli

With the success of the Novice and Improvers thread I thought this would good one to start with 24 weeks from DCM come this monday. Initially this was going to be a Sub 3 thread but I think it should me less intimidating so this is more for people who are aiming for anything between 2.55 - 3.20 marathons.
Whether people are looking to use well established plans ( P&D, Runnersworld, Daniels etc) and wish to discus things or ask questions with like minded aspirants or whether people are looking for a devised plan like last years (if there is some interest in this)

menoscemo

This looks pretty cool. I'll be targetting Berlin though. Probably i'll be using the P&D 12 week programme (55-70 mpw) and aiming for 3'08.

ecoli

menoscemo wrote: »

This looks pretty cool. I'll be targetting Berlin though. Probably i'll be using the P&D 12 week programme (55-70 mpw) and aiming for 3'10.

There will probably be a few doing this (think shels mentioned same in another thread) No reason why it cant be designed as a more autumn marathon thread (especially since there a good build up to both being put up 24 weeks before marathon date)

Brianderunner

Yeah good idea. +1 on making it an autumn marathon thread, doing Berlin too. The training logs are a bit of a shrine to the DCM at the mo.

Oisin11178

menoscemo wrote: »

This looks pretty cool. I'll be targetting Berlin though. Probably i'll be using the P&D 12 week programme (55-70 mpw) and aiming for 3'10.

Kaboom:D

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Good stuff i will be having a proper crack at a PB later in the year, sub 3.10 3.09 (see what i did there Meno:)).
Thinking of going for Amsterdam or Munich but yet to decide.

Brianderunner

Mercy Fluffy Pointless wrote: »

Good stuff i will be having a proper crack at a PB later in the year, sub 3.10 3.09 (see what i did there Meno:)).
Thinking of going for Amsterdam or Munich but yet to decide.

Remember what happened the busby babes in Munich? Well thats what'll happen to you if you go for that time

Oisin11178

Brianderunner wrote: »

Remember what happened the busby babes in Munich? Well thats what'll happen to you if you go for that time

Dont mind him fran.
Sure brian dont you mean again after london:D
And you have a neck , you are the king of kaboom:D

theboyblunder

anyone doing lucerne? Its the day before the DCM

bueller.....bueller......

PS Frank, brian etc - thats the quickest degeneration of a thread ever

opus

menoscemo wrote: »

This looks pretty cool. I'll be targetting Berlin though. Probably i'll be using the P&D 12 week programme (55-70 mpw) and aiming for 3'08.

Snap! Thinking of something similar myself once the Cork marathon is out of the way.

Brianderunner

theboyblunder wrote: »

PS Frank, brian etc - thats the quickest degeneration of a thread ever

You're right yeah. I'll behave in future

I've been doing a lot of research online about key marathon sessions. Found this on letsrun. I'm not a fan of following schedules so i'm gonna make my own to suit myself with sub 3 in Berlin as a goal.

Here are five key marathon workouts and why they are effective and should be a staple in your marathon program.

1) 24 mile long run at an easy pace (80-85% of marathon pace). This workout has many benefits essential to successful marathon running. It aids mental concentration, adaptation of the muscular structure to competing for multiple hours, it makes the body more efficient at using energy sources such as glycogen and fat (especially in using fat as a fuel source) and boosts the bodies storage capacity for glycogen. To enhance this fuel burning efficiency it is recommened you only take water and electrolyte tablets during this workout.

2) 20 miles run with the first 10 miles at an easy pace (80-85% of marathon pace) and the last 10 miles run at marathon race pace. This run does many of the same things as listed in #1 above but it also teaches your body to run at marathon pace when you are tired. This workout is a staple in many marathoners programs including Ryan Hall's.

3) 10 mile Tempo run at 100 to 102% of marathon race pace. It is recommened this workout be done on the road on a course similar in geography to the course you will be racing on. This workout is often used mid-week to acclimate the body to running at marathon race pace and boost aerobic stamina (endurance). Intimate familiarity with desired marathon pace is crucial in successfully racing a marathon, especially in the critical early stages when you are feeling fresh and its easy to get started at too fast a pace.

4) 10k Tempo run @ 105-106% of marathon pace. It is recommened the workout be done on a track or on a flat surface where the pace can be closely monitored. This workout is a favorite of Renato Canova for building aerobic power/capacity in his marathoners. Many runners substitute a sub-maximum effort 10k road race for this workout. This workout pushes outward the anaerobic threshold and enhances the aerobic efficiency and characteristics of muscles fibers in the muscular system. In addition prolonged efforts at faster than marathon pace have the additional mental benefit of making marathon pace seem easier in comparison.

5) 6 x 1 mile @ 110% of marathon pace with 400 jog recovery. It is recommeneded that this workout be done on a track or flat road course. This workout is a classic speed workout for marathon runners. This workout improves the bodies efficiency (aerobic capacity) as well as it ability to process and get rid of lactate. This increased efficiency enhances the bodies ability to handle, remain relaxed at, and run efficiently at the slightly slower pace of marathon race pace. Studies have found little benefit to running at more than 10% faster than goal race pace, so if able additional reps or a shorter recovery should be used rather than increasing the pace of this workout.

Link at http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659

What are peoples view on these?

ecoli

Brianderunner wrote: »

You're right yeah. I'll behave in future

I've been doing a lot of research online about key marathon sessions. Found this on letsrun. I'm not a fan of following schedules so i'm gonna make my own to suit myself with sub 3 in Berlin as a goal.

Here are five key marathon workouts and why they are effective and should be a staple in your marathon program.

1) 24 mile long run at an easy pace (80-85% of marathon pace). This workout has many benefits essential to successful marathon running. It aids mental concentration, adaptation of the muscular structure to competing for multiple hours, it makes the body more efficient at using energy sources such as glycogen and fat (especially in using fat as a fuel source) and boosts the bodies storage capacity for glycogen. To enhance this fuel burning efficiency it is recommened you only take water and electrolyte tablets during this workout.

2) 20 miles run with the first 10 miles at an easy pace (80-85% of marathon pace) and the last 10 miles run at marathon race pace. This run does many of the same things as listed in #1 above but it also teaches your body to run at marathon pace when you are tired. This workout is a staple in many marathoners programs including Ryan Hall's.

3) 10 mile Tempo run at 100 to 102% of marathon race pace. It is recommened this workout be done on the road on a course similar in geography to the course you will be racing on. This workout is often used mid-week to acclimate the body to running at marathon race pace and boost aerobic stamina (endurance). Intimate familiarity with desired marathon pace is crucial in successfully racing a marathon, especially in the critical early stages when you are feeling fresh and its easy to get started at too fast a pace.

4) 10k Tempo run @ 105-106% of marathon pace. It is recommened the workout be done on a track or on a flat surface where the pace can be closely monitored. This workout is a favorite of Renato Canova for building aerobic power/capacity in his marathoners. Many runners substitute a sub-maximum effort 10k road race for this workout. This workout pushes outward the anaerobic threshold and enhances the aerobic efficiency and characteristics of muscles fibers in the muscular system. In addition prolonged efforts at faster than marathon pace have the additional mental benefit of making marathon pace seem easier in comparison.

5) 6 x 1 mile @ 110% of marathon pace with 400 jog recovery. It is recommeneded that this workout be done on a track or flat road course. This workout is a classic speed workout for marathon runners. This workout improves the bodies efficiency (aerobic capacity) as well as it ability to process and get rid of lactate. This increased efficiency enhances the bodies ability to handle, remain relaxed at, and run efficiently at the slightly slower pace of marathon race pace. Studies have found little benefit to running at more than 10% faster than goal race pace, so if able additional reps or a shorter recovery should be used rather than increasing the pace of this workout.

Link at http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659

What are peoples view on these?

The only thing i would say is this should be dependant on your long term training / mileage. These sessions are good (and i use many of which with athletes i coach) But You should look at this sessions as part of a puzzle in terms of the overall marathon training plan. Your Overall training should have structure to it so that there is constant progression.
I would also include some 10k paced intervals as being a very good staple session (once every 2 weeks atleast). Here are a few session which i have used with some of my athletes:

16x400m @ 10k pace w/ 100m recovery

5 miles easy, 12x 800m (5 seconds faster than MP,5 seconds slower than MP) all continuous running

These are some i use in the weeks building up to the taper:

1 mile easy,1 mile MP,2 mile easy,2 MP,3 mile easy,3 mile MP,2 mile easy,2 MP,1 mile easy,1 MP,

15 miles MP

The main things is consistent miles week in week out better to play consevative and stay on your feet rather than hard weeks training causing you to be forced to take days / weeks off. With a solid 4-6 months training there is no reason why you cant achieve the times you are looking for

RAL3

Great idea Ecoli, I'll be hoping for a time in that bracket in the next marathon so I'll be following this thread with interest.

I'm a P & D 18 week follower and its stood me fairly well in terms of progression ( with the exception on Boston a few weeks ago).

I'd be hoping to do DCM - must remember to wear a helmet to protect myself from the Meno & Brianderunner explosions at mile 22!

menoscemo

RAL3 wrote: »

Great idea Ecoli, I'll be hoping for a time in that bracket in the next marathon so I'll be following this thread with interest.

I'm a P & D 18 week follower and its stood me fairly well in terms of progression ( with the exception on Boston a few weeks ago).

I'd be hoping to do DCM - must remember to wear a helmet to protect myself from the Meno & Brianderunner explosions at mile 22!

Firstly, we'll both be pacing Dublin (after racing Berlin), so there'll be no Blow ups.
Secondly, I thought Boston was to be your last Marathon? Has your Wife relented? :pac:

RAL3

menoscemo wrote: »

Firstly, we'll both be pacing Dublin (after racing Berlin), so there'll be no Blow ups.
Secondly, I thought Boston was to be your last Marathon? Has your Wife relented? :pac:

Negotiations are at an early stage............

Oisin11178

[QUOTE=menoscemo;72229215]Firstly, we'll both be pacing Dublin (after racing Berlin), so there'll be no Blow ups.
Secondly, I thought Boston was to be your last Marathon? Has your Wife relented? :pac:[/QUOTE]
Didint know they had sorted pacers for dublin yet:D

Brianderunner

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Didint know they had sorted pacers for dublin yet:D

Well thats the idea, 3'30 or 3'45. Be sure now that you tell the pacing group organisers about the excellent pacing job i did for you in Barca, just leave out the bit from mile 21 onwards, that didnt happen

Oisin11178

You have not got the time for 3.30 bud, hard luck and try again next year. Meno can do 4 hours no probs. He is another notorious exploder so no lower:d ~

Brianderunner

Oisin11178 wrote: »

You have not got the time for 3.30 bud, hard luck and try again next year. Meno can do 4 hours no probs. He is another notorious exploder so no lower:d ~

Not now but possibly on sept 25th. 3'45 would be fine too.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Brianderunner wrote: »

Remember what happened the busby babes in Munich? Well thats what'll happen to you if you go for that time

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Dont mind him fran.
Sure brian dont you mean again after london:D
And you have a neck , you are the king of kaboom:D

London will not be repeated.....these words could come back to haunt me:)

menoscemo

Mercy Fluffy Pointless wrote: »

Good stuff i will be having a proper crack at a PB later in the year, sub 3.10 3.09 (see what i did there Meno:)).
Thinking of going for Amsterdam or Munich but yet to decide.

I think you read my first post wrong

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

menoscemo wrote: »

I think you read my first post wrong

LOL:)

Oisin11178

All the lads racing berlin:D
You should all run together, get yourself a nice little group. It makes it alot easier.
Just dont stand near brian, you dont want any shrapnel hitting you when he explodes:D

Brianderunner

Oisin11178 wrote: »

All the lads racing berlin:D
You should all run together, get yourself a nice little group. It makes it alot easier.
Just dont stand near brian, you dont want any shrapnel hitting you when he explodes:D

At least i have the b*lls to give it a lash in the autumn, while someone else clearly has the ability but chooses to plod round ultra's instead, no names mentioned.

Brianderunner

Mercy Fluffy Pointless wrote: »

London will not be repeated

Your right London will not be repeated, you'll be lucky to break 3'30 next time round

Oisin11178

Brianderunner wrote: »

At least i have the b*lls to give it a lash in the autumn, while someone else clearly has the ability but chooses to plod round ultra's instead, no names mentioned.

haha, yeah i hate marathon training:D
8.15 a mile for 40 miles is not plodding btw, the nerve:D

TheRoadRunner

I'm also in for Berlin. A few stop start weeks coming up and then hopefully 13 weeks of absolute magic training. May also be running Dublin but that will just be a pacing/fun run with a friend of mine if he can make the starting line. Not a fan of autumn marathons. Summer holidays usually mess up my training. I've sorted that this year

liamo123

Berlin for me too... Enjoyed last year (despite the heavy rain ) so back for more... One thing for sure.... its as flat as a pancake!!

RHunce

Hi Ecoli, could you look at my last few posts in the novice thread and recommend anything, should I keep going the way I am, push for more if I'm finding it easy or lay off. Thanks

theboyblunder

liamo123 wrote: »

Berlin for me too... Enjoyed last year (despite the heavy rain ) so back for more... One thing for sure.... its as flat as a pancake!!

feck all of yis anyway. Now I want to do Berlin.

ecoli

RHunce wrote: »

Hi Ecoli, could you look at my last few posts in the novice thread and recommend anything, should I keep going the way I am, push for more if I'm finding it easy or lay off. Thanks

Hey RHunce

Have been looking at your through your posts. No reason why you arent capable of the times you are trying to clock find a good plan and stick to it and build your mileage slowly. At eighteen I would not be a huge fan of jumping into a marathon (especially with your lack of running history) however if your set on it just build things gradually and remember you dont have to kill yourself on your easy runs. Every run has a purpose and is run at a certain pace for each particular purpose so running to hard on an easy day you are not getting the benefits you are looking for.
There are many plans which will get you to your goal P & D (google it) seems to be a popular one among people here which would probably suit you