Autumn Marathon 2011 'Seasoned' Runners thread

brownian

Actually signed up for it today. So no going back (unless I can think of a really good excuse ).

Slogger Jogger

Starting to get into my LSRs. Ran a hilly 26k at 4:45 pace. What pace do fellow seasoners run their weekend LSR at? Do you up your pace throughout the LSR or run steady throughout?

Brianderunner

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Starting to get into my LSRs. Ran a hilly 26k at 4:45 pace. What pace do fellow seasoners run their weekend LSR at? Do you up your pace throughout the LSR or run steady throughout?

Going for sub 3 and my LSR's are usually somewhere between 8'00 and 8'30 miling. 8'40-8'50 ish for the start then gradually hit 8'10 ish for the 2nd half.

RAL3

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Starting to get into my LSRs. Ran a hilly 26k at 4:45 pace. What pace do fellow seasoners run their weekend LSR at? Do you up your pace throughout the LSR or run steady throughout?

My LSR's so far have been run at fairly consistent 8 min miling pace, longest so far is 16.5m.

From now on I'm planning to do 1st half at 8:20, followed by 2nd half at 7:45 also trying to incorporate a few hills as well.

Plan for DCM is to beat current pb of 3:15, hopefully around 3:10.

Art of Noise

I did my final Long Run today before the Longford Marathon in 3 weeks time where I am targeting something between 3:05 and 3:10. I don't think I could call it an LSR though as I did 22 miles in 2:45 never deviating much from 7:30 mpm. Perhaps I went a bit too fast as I was pretty wrecked at the end. I did 19,21 and 19.5 for my previous three long runs doing them every second week. Have to admit the 19.5 miles two weeks ago was meant to be 22 miles but I had to stop. Weather was very warm and sunny that weekend.

I have to ask Brianderunner, will you be increasing the pace in your long runs when it comes closer to Dublin, (presuming it is Dublin you are targeting?). If you are going for sub 3 and are doing LSRs between 8:00 and 8:30 you must feel fine throughout.

Brianderunner

Art of Noise wrote: »

I have to ask Brianderunner, will you be increasing the pace in your long runs when it comes closer to Dublin, (presuming it is Dublin you are targeting?). If you are going for sub 3 and are doing LSRs between 8:00 and 8:30 you must feel fine throughout.

It's berlin in 7 weeks. Nah i tend to train at a slow pace generally, except for sessions/tempo's. Most people i talk to say under 8 min pace is too fast for LSR's if your goal is 3 hrs or above. I'll do 10 at LSR pace followed by 10 at MP 4 weeks out alright. I wish i felt fine throughout them, usually feel terrible on my long runs

opus

Brianderunner wrote: »

It's berlin in 7 weeks. Nah i tend to train at a slow pace generally, except for sessions/tempo's. Most people i talk to say under 8 min pace is too fast for LSR's if your goal is 3 hrs or above. I'll do 10 at LSR pace followed by 10 at MP 4 weeks out alright. I wish i felt fine throughout them, usually feel terrible on my long runs

The approach I've taken is to split the LSR's that don't have any PMP miles into thirds & run them starting at PMP+20%, then PMP+15% and finishing at PMP+10%. Originally I was doing the same for the midweek MLR's but I asked Krusty's advice and he hinted that might be a bit insane so I dropped the idea

Just my own idea of course so could be 100% wrong!

menoscemo

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Starting to get into my LSRs. Ran a hilly 26k at 4:45 pace. What pace do fellow seasoners run their weekend LSR at? Do you up your pace throughout the LSR or run steady throughout?

I'm targeting 3'10 and my LSR's seem to be happening in the 8'20-8'40 range. I try to keep an even effort and use HR as a guide.
I sometimes run LSR's at recovery pace (9 min/mile+) if I am doing a group run and I don't think it does any harm to do them slow as long as I do the speedwork midweek.
Obviously I also do some of the long runs with PMP miles thrown in as well.

I feel that doing LSR's too quick just tires you unnecessarily and affects other key workouts.

misty floyd

opus wrote: »

Just my own idea of course so could be 100% wrong!

Not at all, thats the thing, so many ways to skin a cat. 8m/m seems to be my pace now and others have a faster easy pace.

That run brian plans (10m easy with 10m at PMP) is a good one. Hard but great for confidence, you just know you are ready if you finish that one in one piece. When you set out to do these long runs with pmp miles in it, you know the difficulty only starts once the pmp miles start. Just like the marathon at mile 20, it only starts then. Great training for the day.

earlyevening

HI. I think I'll follow this thread too.
Did 3:06 last year in Dublin but had to walk for 4 mins. I'm faster this year so I'd hope sub 3 is a possibility (but something always goes wrong, right?)

I dont follow the books precisely at all but will be doing
Mon off
Tues 8 mile at 6/min per mile
Weds 16 mile at 7min/mile
Thurs 5mile recovery
Fri 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach
Sat 21mile at 8min/mile
Sun Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach
That'll be the peek week (74miles), others will have small compromises due to the Half/short holiday etc

Its pretty much what I've done on other years except the football pitch sprints are new this year.
Mainly been doing the above all year execpt for IMRA on wednesday and doing 16 rather than 21 on the Saturday.

Recent race was 28;59 for 8k.

ddel

earlyevening wrote: »

HI. I think I'll follow this thread too.
Did 3:06 last year in Dublin but had to walk for 4 mins. I'm faster this year so I'd hope sub 3 is a possibility (but something always goes wrong, right?)

I dont follow the books precisely at all but will be doing
Mon off
Tues 8 mile at 6/min per mile
Weds 16 mile at 7min/mile
Thurs 5mile recovery
Fri 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach
Sat 21mile at 8min/mile
Sun Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach
That'll be the peek week (74miles), others will have small compromises due to the Half/short holiday etc

Its pretty much what I've done on other years except the football pitch sprints are new this year.
Mainly been doing the above all year execpt for IMRA on wednesday and doing 16 rather than 21 on the Saturday.

Recent race was 28;59 for 8k.

Wow - 48 mins for an 8 mile run, followed by 16 miles the next day at 7 min miles. If I were a betting man I'd call that well under 3 hours shape, if not close to 2.50.... Actually just looked at McMillan - 28.59 for 8k gives you a 2.51 marathon. Good luck, you seem in great shape.

earlyevening

ddel wrote: »

Wow - 48 mins for an 8 mile run, followed by 16 miles the next day at 7 min miles. If I were a betting man I'd call that well under 3 hours shape, if not close to 2.50.... Actually just looked at McMillan - 28.59 for 8k gives you a 2.51 marathon. Good luck, you seem in great shape.

Yeah, I saw that McMillan prediction but I never maximise my McMillan potential in the marathon. I fall short of it every year.
I cant unlock the secret to holding my pace in the last 5 miles.

ecoli

Looking at that week your training seems a bit excessive. Some notes on the training (I dont want this to seem critical because you have the potential to run alot quicker without completely flogging yourself). My notes are based on 3hr marathon fitness

Mon off
Tues 8 mile at 6/min per mile Quicker than tempo pace which is too fast for such a duration)
Weds 16 mile at 7min/mile close to MP the day after quality session not allowing your body to get the benefits of recovery
Thurs 5mile recovery badly needed after last two days i say
Fri 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach Solid session
Sat 21mile at 8min/mile
Sun Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach

If you wanted to keep this training up you could tweak at so that you get a very good week and sess alot more benefit for your work


Mon Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach
Tues 8 miles @6 min miling
Weds Thurs 5mile recovery
Thurs 16 mile at 7min/mile
Fri Thurs Off
Sat 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach
Sun 21mile at 8min/mile


By even just changing the layout of the week you would get more benefit from the Hard Day easy day principles of training. Our training is a two part process of stress and recover, stacking one stress and recover cycle on top of another stress and recover cycle and raising the level of our adaptation to that stress, and thus our fitness level.

I would also say slow down you 8 mile tempo to 6.20-6.30 ish roughly and you will be suprised of the benefit you will see. You dont always have to train harder to get better but rather train smarter

tunguska

earlyevening wrote: »

Tues 8 mile at 6/min per mile
Weds 16 mile at 7min/mile
Thurs 5mile recovery
Fri 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach
Sat 21mile at 8min/mile
Sun Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach
That'll be the peek week (74miles), others will have small compromises due to the Half/short holiday etc

Its pretty much what I've done on other years except the football pitch sprints are new this year.
Mainly been doing the above all year execpt for IMRA on wednesday and doing 16 rather than 21 on the Saturday.

Recent race was 28;59 for 8k.

Not bad going for a Dentist.........EE if you can knock out 8miles @ 6min/mile pace in training then you'd definitely go sub 60mins for a 10mile race. And if you can go sub 60 for a 10miler then sub 3hr for the marathon is a very soft target. High 2:40s would be more like it.

ddel

ecoli wrote: »

Looking at that week your training seems a bit excessive. Some notes on the training (I dont want this to seem critical because you have the potential to run alot quicker without completely flogging yourself). My notes are based on 3hr marathon fitness

Mon off
Tues 8 mile at 6/min per mile Quicker than tempo pace which is too fast for such a duration)
Weds 16 mile at 7min/mile close to MP the day after quality session not allowing your body to get the benefits of recovery
Thurs 5mile recovery badly needed after last two days i say
Fri 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach Solid session
Sat 21mile at 8min/mile
Sun Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach

If you wanted to keep this training up you could tweak at so that you get a very good week and sess alot more benefit for your work


Mon Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach
Tues 8 miles @6 min miling
Weds Thurs 5mile recovery
Thurs 16 mile at 7min/mile
Fri Thurs Off
Sat 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach
Sun 21mile at 8min/mile


By even just changing the layout of the week you would get more benefit from the Hard Day easy day principles of training. Our training is a two part process of stress and recover, stacking one stress and recover cycle on top of another stress and recover cycle and raising the level of our adaptation to that stress, and thus our fitness level.

I would also say slow down you 8 mile tempo to 6.20-6.30 ish roughly and you will be suprised of the benefit you will see. You dont always have to train harder to get better but rather train smarter

Great advice, amazing how the changd layout gives the same benefits and quality with so much more recovery.

A thing I've been thrashing around myself is the benefit of the really slow long run. For easiness of example, lets call 7 min miling Marathon pace, then 7.30/7.45 pace is pretty easy. Is 8 min miling or slower, just to slow. Would there be more benefit from 7.30/7.45 pace or is it time on feet without massive effort that matters from the long run?

ecoli

ddel wrote: »

Great advice, amazing how the changd layout gives the same benefits and quality with so much more recovery.

A thing I've been thrashing around myself is the benefit of the really slow long run. For easiness of example, lets call 7 min miling Marathon pace, then 7.30/7.45 pace is pretty easy. Is 8 min miling or slower, just to slow. Would there be more benefit from 7.30/7.45 pace or is it time on feet without massive effort that matters from the long run?

For the majority of runs I would say that time on your feet is very important and as such a large majority of your long runs should be about time on your feet. 8 min miling is not too slow for a 3 hour marathon runner. it actually sounds about right.

There are incidences when you can push it to more steady state running or even faster and include Marathon paced running.

Steady state I would suggest 80-90% of your MP which is roughly 7.10-7.20 pace. With these the distance should be less than that of a normal long run. For example if your normal long run was 18 miles I would suggest doing no more than 15 miles at this pace

The other option is MP this can be done as part of a long run or as a seperate session. I would never do more than 15 miles at this pace and have found that usually 2-3 weeks after an athletes longest run of the marathon plan that a 15 mile @ MP is a great session usually to bring an athlete into their taper

There are other ways to break this up and if you search posts from Tergat he goes into detail on quite a few of these sessions among my favourites to use with my athletes is the following

1 Mile easy, 1 Mile MP, 2 Mile easy,2 Mile MP, 3 miles easy, 3 miles MP, 2 miles easy, 2 miles MP, 1 miles easy, 1 Mile MP (Total miles 18/ 9 @ MP)

cwgatling

ecoli wrote: »

1 Mile easy, 1 Mile MP, 2 Mile easy,2 Mile MP, 3 miles easy, 3 miles MP, 2 miles easy, 2 miles MP, 1 miles easy, 1 Mile MP (Total miles 18/ 9 @ MP)

That's deadly, cheers. Will definitely try one of those.

ddel

ecoli wrote: »

For the majority of runs I would say that time on your feet is very important and as such a large majority of your long runs should be about time on your feet. 8 min miling is not too slow for a 3 hour marathon runner. it actually sounds about right.

There are incidences when you can push it to more steady state running or even faster and include Marathon paced running.

Steady state I would suggest 80-90% of your MP which is roughly 7.10-7.20 pace. With these the distance should be less than that of a normal long run. For example if your normal long run was 18 miles I would suggest doing no more than 15 miles at this pace

The other option is MP this can be done as part of a long run or as a seperate session. I would never do more than 15 miles at this pace and have found that usually 2-3 weeks after an athletes longest run of the marathon plan that a 15 mile @ MP is a great session usually to bring an athlete into their taper

There are other ways to break this up and if you search posts from Tergat he goes into detail on quite a few of these sessions among my favourites to use with my athletes is the following

1 Mile easy, 1 Mile MP, 2 Mile easy,2 Mile MP, 3 miles easy, 3 miles MP, 2 miles easy, 2 miles MP, 1 miles easy, 1 Mile MP (Total miles 18/ 9 @ MP)

Thanks ecoli, some sound advice there. I'll be sure to keep my longer runs that little bit slower and looking forward to trying the last session of mixing up easy and MP running. Don't know if I'm in sub 3 bracket, but this stuff will help me get close.

earlyevening

ecoli wrote: »

Mon Usually another 7mile recovery on the beach
Tues 8 miles @6 min miling
Weds Thurs 5mile recovery
Thurs 16 mile at 7min/mile
Fri Thurs Off
Sat 30mins sprint around a football pitch for 1 lap then jog 1 lap recovery, followed by 7mile easy on the beach
Sun 21mile at 8min/mile

Once the IMRA season is over, (next week), I will slow down on Tuesdays. That makes sense. I'll need to be fresh enough for 16s on a Wednesday. I cant do too much other chopping and changing. When I do certain runs is dictated by irregular work hours.
I should prob move the 21 to Sun rather than Sat too as you suggest. Seems to be a better idea.

@Tunguska I think thats crazy talk re 2:4x! When i do 8mile in 48mins I'm flat out - its race pace rather than a training run. I couldnt go any faster! (Plus that loop I do is 7.9miles so I'm cheating a little). I could do it in 49:30 last year and still did 3:06 in the marathon.

corkrunner71

Hi

Do you think it's possible to run a sub 3 hour marathon on 4 days a week training. Just wondering if anyone here has managed it and if so what kind of mileage/runs did ye do.

Also, do you know of a good marathon training plan which consists of just 4 days per week. The reason I want to do just 4 days, is because anytime I have attempted more days, I seem to end up injured or running poorly due to tiredness. Ideally the mileage wouldn't exceed a max of 40/45 miles per week either. Any thoughts welcome.

dev123

corkrunner71 wrote: »

Hi

Do you think it's possible to run a sub 3 hour marathon on 4 days a week training. Just wondering if anyone here has managed it and if so what kind of mileage/runs did ye do.

Also, do you know of a good marathon training plan which consists of just 4 days per week. The reason I want to do just 4 days, is because anytime I have attempted more days, I seem to end up injured or running poorly due to tiredness. Ideally the mileage wouldn't exceed a max of 40/45 miles per week either. Any thoughts welcome.

Hi Corkrunner71,

If you are looking for a "minimalist" marathon training plan there is a 3 day plan here with a review of the plan from an Irish perspective here.

I think it requires another two days of cross training.

It may be what you are looking for.

Hope this helps,
Dev

robinph

corkrunner71 wrote: »

Hi

Do you think it's possible to run a sub 3 hour marathon on 4 days a week training. Just wondering if anyone here has managed it and if so what kind of mileage/runs did ye do.

Also, do you know of a good marathon training plan which consists of just 4 days per week. The reason I want to do just 4 days, is because anytime I have attempted more days, I seem to end up injured or running poorly due to tiredness. Ideally the mileage wouldn't exceed a max of 40/45 miles per week either. Any thoughts welcome.

It is possible, I'd not recommend it though.

Can't have been much more than an average of 4 days per week that I did last year in the lead up to Dublin, and I seem to remember that I'd only a couple of weeks in the range of 40miles. As for a plan, well I don't have one and didn't follow one, that's possibly part of why the mileage was so low.

Slogger Jogger

A good week for me. 96k total. This weekend was particularly tough...
Yesterday: 16k at 3:58 min/k pace. This wasn't easy. 40 laps of the track in Arklow
Today: 28k LSR. Avoided looking at watch and ran by feel on the outward 14k section. Pleasantly surprised at pace. The inward 14k was net downhill so my pace picked up. Overall avg a good 4:36 min/k. Way faster than other LSR paces mentioned here but it felt okay. Wrecked after, but hey.

I feel if I can continue to get some weeks and weekends in like this then I can achieve a good result for me in the DCM.

earlyevening

40 laps of a track? Ugh. How did you stick that? Must have been tedious.

Slogger Jogger

earlyevening wrote: »

40 laps of a track? Ugh. How did you stick that? Must have been tedious.

Fairly but it concentrates the mind. I needed a flat route and this was as good as any, as everywhere else around me is fairly hilly. This run was very much an exception as most of my runs are on trail and hilly backroads. Putting aside the tediousness it was a good work-out.

earlyevening

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Fairly but it concentrates the mind. I needed a flat route and this was as good as any, as everywhere else around me is fairly hilly. This run was very much an exception as most of my runs are on trail and hilly backroads. Putting aside the tediousness it was a good work-out.

I guess anything is OK once but it would be difficult to make it a regular run (for me anyway).

Didnt Enduro do a 24hr track race a couple of years ago? Imagine that!

ecoli

earlyevening wrote: »

I guess anything is OK once but it would be difficult to make it a regular run (for me anyway).

Didnt Enduro do a 24hr track race a couple of years ago? Imagine that!

Few people do that one in Belfast from here every year

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056194804

ThePiedPiper

I did my first 20 mile LSR for DCM '11 training yesterday. The first 15 were nice and comfortable progressive, 7.40s down to 7.10. Put in 2 miles at PMP (6.45-6.50), planning on 5 but was wrecked after the first 2.. just jogged it in.

I'm trying to take the positives from the session and I suppose 11 weeks out it's more about time on feet but those 2 PMP miles took it out of me. Possibly the day spent working in garden left me a bit tired before I even started. One way or another, I need to knuckle down a bit if I'm to get close to 2.55.

brownian

Guess I'm a bit behind you, RunForrestRun - did my first 13-mile LSR for DCM on Sunday, and feel pretty chuffed to be building up the distance already Hope to push it to 15 by end August (Frank Duffy + week holiday in the intervening) and then have a 15 or two and a couple of 18s in September, two 20s in October and then taper off. One or two ten-milers mid-week (replaced by 10ks if feeling poor), so most weeks from now to DCM are in the 30-40 mile zone.

So fair play, hitting 20s already. You must be looking forward to a whole lotta miles.

ddel

This longer stuff is tough going. Did 15m at the weekend (first long run - ever), easy at 4.58 per km pace, low av HR of 136. Walked in the door relaxed and as the day/afternoon wore on I got stiffer and stiffer. Shows you how much of a shock it was to the muscles. Never has something so easy at the time, turned out to be so stiffening (is that a word) afterwards

Did 9.3 miles yesterday at marathon pace. A little quick at 4.12 per km, HR was okay at an avergae of 162, but went into the 170's for the last 3-5 miles. No way I can hold that pace for 26.2 miles. Never did a sustained pace run like that before, it's hard going. My body has a lot to learn in the next couple of months!