Autumn Marathon 2011 'Seasoned' Runners thread

Gringo78

ddel wrote: »

This longer stuff is tough going. Did 15m at the weekend (first long run - ever), easy at 4.58 per km pace, low av HR of 136. Walked in the door relaxed and as the day/afternoon wore on I got stiffer and stiffer. Shows you how much of a shock it was to the muscles. Never has something so easy at the time, turned out to be so stiffening (is that a word) afterwards

Did 9.3 miles yesterday at marathon pace. A little quick at 4.12 per km, HR was okay at an avergae of 162, but went into the 170's for the last 3-5 miles. No way I can hold that pace for 26.2 miles. Never did a sustained pace run like that before, it's hard going. My body has a lot to learn in the next couple of months!

The recovery from the long runs will get easier & quicker the more you do - good sign though that you found it easy during the run.

As for the marathon pace run - don't be too hung up on pace at this stage, if you think 162 is the type of HR that you can sustain for a marathon then when doing marathon pace miles I wouldn't push the HR much higher than that. Some days, especially after a work day, you'll be tireder than usual or a bit run down and marathon pace will not be what you want it to be, other days it'll be a bit faster than you expect - but keep them at a similar effort level. When you're tired, and try to run marathon pace miles at goal marathon pace, the effort level could be the same as 10 mile race pace which will leave you very fatigued, disheartened, even affect sessions a few days later.

I run marathon pace by feel and only look at the pace after the run - can be slower by up to 30sec/mile some days.

Thing to remember, when you are running the marathon, you will be doing so on a bank holiday monday, after a saturday & sunday chilling (for most people anyways) and after a 2-3 week taper, after 12-18 weeks of quality training. The effort required to run the same pace 3 days after a long run, after a long day at work, only at the start of your training programme is a lot harder.

ddel

Gringo78 wrote: »

The recovery from the long runs will get easier & quicker the more you do - good sign though that you found it easy during the run.

As for the marathon pace run - don't be too hung up on pace at this stage, if you think 162 is the type of HR that you can sustain for a marathon then when doing marathon pace miles I wouldn't push the HR much higher than that. Some days, especially after a work day, you'll be tireder than usual or a bit run down and marathon pace will not be what you want it to be, other days it'll be a bit faster than you expect - but keep them at a similar effort level. When you're tired, and try to run marathon pace miles at goal marathon pace, the effort level could be the same as 10 mile race pace which will leave you very fatigued, disheartened, even affect sessions a few days later.

I run marathon pace by feel and only look at the pace after the run - can be slower by up to 30sec/mile some days.

Thing to remember, when you are running the marathon, you will be doing so on a bank holiday monday, after a saturday & sunday chilling (for most people anyways) and after a 2-3 week taper, after 12-18 weeks of quality training. The effort required to run the same pace 3 days after a long run, after a long day at work, only at the start of your training programme is a lot harder.

Thanks for the advice. As I've never done a marathon before I'm not sure what my sustained HR would be. With a max in the mid 190's and an average of over 180 for a 5k race I'd expect the overall average for a marathon would be in the 169 to mid 170's for a good portion of the 2nd half. While yesterdays run had an average of 162, the more relevant info for me was how tough it got once I started to reach the low 170's. I'm not running by HR on these sessions, I'm just using it as interesting feedback. Glad to hear you run by feel and some days are a lot slower than others. I'm less daunted by the session now - work hard, get them done and just face the fact not all of them will be quick.

Slogger Jogger

Did a good week's training this week. 101k total. LSR today was great. Long and relatively slow, how it should be. 31k in total at 5:14 pace on hilly ground. Warriors race next week so I'll ease back on my running towards that.

Art of Noise

Longford Marathon just around the corner for me now. Didn't really increase the mileage enough to target a sub 3 but don't think I was quite ready for that anyway. I am doing Dublin 9 weeks later anyway so that eases the pressure somewhat.

Plodman

Hi guys - I was thinking of doing the Athlone 3/4 marathon 4 weeks before Dublin. I was thinking of doing this at marathon pace? Is this a good idea or would I be better off to do a solo LSR?

ThePiedPiper

Plodman wrote: »

Hi guys - I was thinking of doing the Athlone 3/4 marathon 4 weeks before Dublin. I was thinking of doing this at marathon pace? Is this a good idea or would I be better off to do a solo LSR?

Plodman, that's just shy of 20 miles at marathon pace. This, to me, would be too difficult a session and not necessarily do anything positive for your marathon time. If you approach the race, doing the first 5 miles at PMP + 30-45 seconds and then the next 15 at PMP, I think it would be a fantastic session. 20 miles at PMP is a lot. I'd find it hard to stay disciplined in a race but if you can, then treat it as a LSR with fast finish.

Plodman

RunForestRun wrote: »

Plodman, that's just shy of 20 miles at marathon pace. This, to me, would be too difficult a session and not necessarily do anything positive for your marathon time. If you approach the race, doing the first 5 miles at PMP + 30-45 seconds and then the next 15 at PMP, I think it would be a fantastic session. 20 miles at PMP is a lot. I'd find it hard to stay disciplined in a race but if you can, then treat it as a LSR with fast finish.

Thanks - I think I'll err on the side of caution and do the Cork to Cobh 15 mile on the same day instead.

RAL3

Plodman wrote: »

Thanks - I think I'll err on the side of caution and do the Cork to Cobh 15 mile on the same day instead.

Cork to Cobh is a great race but I'd suggest that Athlone may be more beneficial in terms of marathon preparation.

However as the previous poster suggested - not at marathon pace.

I did it last year and found it extremely beneficial in terms of both physical and mental preparation for DCM.

I followed the organisers pacing strategy which involved running the first 'quarter' at pmp+10%,second quarter @PMP + 5% and finally the third quarter at just under PMP (see website for details).

There were pacers for all major marathon milestone bands and they followed the same strategy,i.e.,for a 3.30hr DCM target quarter pacing would be Q1- 8.56, Q2 - 8.28 & Q3- 8.08 (each Qtr = 6.6miles).

So, while not at full PMP, its an excellent final long run of just under 20 miles which provides you with a good confidence boost before the real thing and theres a big enough gap between DCM to recover.

Plodman

RAL3 wrote: »

Cork to Cobh is a great race but I'd suggest that Athlone may be more beneficial in terms of marathon preparation.

However as the previous poster suggested - not at marathon pace.

I did it last year and found it extremely beneficial in terms of both physical and mental preparation for DCM.

I followed the organisers pacing strategy which involved running the first 'quarter' at pmp+10%,second quarter @PMP + 5% and finally the third quarter at just under PMP (see website for details).

There were pacers for all major marathon milestone bands and they followed the same strategy,i.e.,for a 3.30hr DCM target quarter pacing would be Q1- 8.56, Q2 - 8.28 & Q3- 8.08 (each Qtr = 6.6miles).

So, while not at full PMP, its an excellent final long run of just under 20 miles which provides you with a good confidence boost before the real thing and theres a big enough gap between DCM to recover.

Thanks RAL3 - that sounds like good advice. Gives me plenty of food for thought anyway

Slogger Jogger

c.65k from 5 days running for me last week on what was a step back week. Saturday's warriors run in Strandhill was a mini target race for me so very happy with how that went. Legs couldn't take an LSR the following day but managed to do 22k which was respectable enough. Back to the longer stuff this week.

earlyevening

Took a week off running just there. Even found myself smoking a cigar at a wedding on one of the days. I hope its not going to ruin my marathon.

Did 8 miles on Tues and 16 on Wed at 7min/mile without too much trouble so will hopefully get back into it.

Art of Noise

I did 3:10 in Longford. Happy enough but did not finish well. Was on for about 3:07 but last 5 miles were a real struggle. Pace went down and even had to walk a bit.

Positives are it was still a succesful run, a PB and I felt great within a few days after. No niggles whatsoever.

Hopeful of doing a little better in Dublin which is slightly easier imo.

Slogger Jogger

6 days running. 90k for week. 30k LSR this morning, 4:43 pace. Ticking along nicely. Hope the last comment applies to the rest of you.

earlyevening

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

6 days running. 90k for week. 30k LSR this morning, 4:43 pace. Ticking along nicely. Hope the last comment applies to the rest of you.

Doing fine. 63.6 miles this week. 21mile LSR yesterday. The week off didnt seem to upset things too much.

Slogger Jogger

Good stuff EE, nice work. I've averaged 87k each week for 10 weeks so ticking over nicely. Signed up for lakes 10k this Saturday, with a long LSR the next day to recover

BeepBeep67

Anyone here use the Lyidard Marathon training program.
I'm targetting a spring marathon so planning on getting 3 mths solid base building from the end of this month, leaving me with about 16 wks from Christmas to mid April.
It seems the base is built around 3 long runs of about 90-90-150 and a mid week tempo, the long runs are not quite easy but should have you working a little - what pace do most do these at? PMP +?

ecoli

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Anyone here use the Lyidard Marathon training program.
I'm targetting a spring marathon so planning on getting 3 mths solid base building from the end of this month, leaving me with about 16 wks from Christmas to mid April.
It seems the base is built around 3 long runs of about 90-90-150 and a mid week tempo, the long runs are not quite easy but should have you working a little - what pace do most do these at? PMP +?

From my reading of Lydiard he describes this steady state running at roughly about 70%-80% of Max aerobic effort. This would be about half way between marathon pace and easy pace.

The idea of this is that you will develop your Aerobic capacity quicker at steady state running effort than you would by simply running all runs easy. Both get to the same goal but one arrives there quicker than the other

Dunno if you have seen this one but it is a pretty good reference point

Lydiard Running Lecture

BeepBeep67

ecoli wrote: »

From my reading of Lydiard he describes this steady state running at roughly about 70%-80% of Max aerobic effort. This would be about half way between marathon pace and easy pace.

The idea of this is that you will develop your Aerobic capacity quicker at steady state running effort than you would by simply running all runs easy. Both get to the same goal but one arrives there quicker than the other

Dunno if you have seen this one but it is a pretty good reference point

Lydiard Running Lecture

Thanks that puts them in the 7:20 range.

earlyevening

Should I be doing any fast stuff 7 weeks out from the marathon?

I'm just doing my 30min sprint1 lap/jog recovery 1 lap session around a football pitch on a Fri. Should I be doing any more.

Everything else is marathon pace or slower.

Brianderunner

earlyevening wrote: »

Should I be doing any fast stuff 7 weeks out from the marathon?

I'm just doing my 30min sprint1 lap/jog recovery 1 lap session around a football pitch on a Fri. Should I be doing any more.

Everything else is marathon pace or slower.

You should be doing tempo runs for sure. Anywhere between 4 and 7 mls at your 10 mile/half marathon race pace. Makes MP feel easier in comparison by improving your bodies efficiency.

menoscemo

Taper nearly here. Just one more hard weekend and then it's all easyish stuff to Berlin. Feeling more confident about sub 3'10.

Slogger Jogger

earlyevening wrote: »

Should I be doing any fast stuff 7 weeks out from the marathon?

I'm just doing my 30min sprint1 lap/jog recovery 1 lap session around a football pitch on a Fri. Should I be doing any more.

Everything else is marathon pace or slower.

For me, my Tues and Thurs runs are a rep session, say 10 x 400, and a tempo run the other day. Other days are more leisurely. I'll do this until 2 to 3 weeks out from DCM.

earlyevening

Just wasnt thinking and was forgetting to do anything like a tempo run. Will fix that.

Was just doing a recovery 7mile there and was kinda limping on/off. Hope it disappears with a days rest and doesnt ruin the next month or anything!

Slogger Jogger

20 miler (32.2k) completed today. 4:40 min/k pace despite hills. An 85k week. Happy enough. I was looking yesterday at the schedules I used for previous Dublin marathons and my pace is up on what I've done before. If I keep this up I'll probably be in the best shape I've ever been in for a marathon. Touch wood.

earlyevening

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

20 miler (32.2k) completed today. 4:40 min/k pace despite hills. An 85k week. Happy enough. I was looking yesterday at the schedules I used for previous Dublin marathons and my pace is up on what I've done before. If I keep this up I'll probably be in the best shape I've ever been in for a marathon. Touch wood.

Reading things like that are worrying me. Its faster than I'm doing long runs at (plus I'm on the flat).

I'm frantically re thinking my approach and thinking I should go faster on the LSRs! Think I'll try 7:20 min/mile 21 mile LSR this weekend. Will prob feel more confident after rolling that one out.

Slogger Jogger

earlyevening wrote: »

Reading things like that are worrying me. Its faster than I'm doing long runs at (plus I'm on the flat).

I'm frantically re thinking my approach and thinking I should go faster on the LSRs! Think I'll try 7:20 min/mile 21 mile LSR this weekend. Will prob feel more confident after rolling that one out.

Don't let that worry you. More likely I'm doing my LSR too hard. If you are doing some short and fast runs during the week, you have a good mix of speed and distance in your schedule and that should be effective.

earlyevening

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Don't let that worry you. More likely I'm doing my LSR too hard. If you are doing some short and fast runs during the week, you have a good mix of speed and distance in your schedule and that should be effective.

Am generally happy with the mix, but would like to get 1 faster long run in for confidence. I wont try doing all the longer runs fast - dont want to burn out, but I think putting one in the schedule is a happy balance.

Ugh, just started my 8 mile tempo run at 10:15 pm - way too late for that sort of thing...late night at work.

Slogger Jogger

@EE. Think about doing the 3/4 marathon in Athlone. There'll be pacers for sub3 hr marathon pace so it'll make a nice change to a solo run.

Oisin11178

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

@EE. Think about doing the 3/4 marathon in Athlone. There'll be pacers for sub3 hr marathon pace so it'll make a nice change to a solo run.

They wont be running at 6.50 a mile. Only for the last third anyway. The first third will be at 90% pace and the second third at 95%. I paced it last year at the 3.30 equivelent.

dev123

Oisin11178 wrote: »

They wont be running at 6.50 a mile. Only for the last third anyway. The first third will be at 90% pace and the second third at 95%. I paced it last year at the 3.30 equivelent.

The pacing strategy has changed for Athlone this year.

It is now 90% for the first quarter and 95% for the for the second and 3rd quarters, so for the 3 hour pace that works out at 7:38min/miles up to a max of 7:14 min/miles.

The 2:45 pacers will be starting at 7:00 and moving up to 6:37 min/miles for the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

http://athlone3quarter.com/faq.php