Lifetime licence?

Gerry.L

I just had a thought about the licensing process here in Ireland. I think it would be nice if you could get a lifetime license.

I have one or two guns there that I plan on having until the day I die. And Im sure Im not the only one in a similar situation.

Maybe do a deal, they could give you a lifetime license for (just for example) the cost of 40 years of regular licensing. That way the government get some nice lump sums here and there, and you save financially in the long run with the additional benefit (for you and the government) of no messing around every 3 years with filling in new application forms. Seems to me like a win-win situation.


What do ye lads think?

Traumadoc

Not sure the gunshops would be too happy.

leeroybrown

A 'lifetime license' kinda negates one of the main reasons for gun licensing - traceability. A system where someone can license a rifle or shotgun for 20+ years then just disappear is unlikely to be a positive development in the long run for gun owners.

Gerry.L

leeroybrown wrote: »

A 'lifetime license' kinda negates one of the main reasons for gun licensing - traceability. A system where someone can license a rifle or shotgun for 20+ years then just disappear is unlikely to be a positive development in the long run for gun owners.

Well someones not going to just dissapear. They are always going to be paying tax, bank account, social welfare or something. I dont think someone is just going to go off grid into the wilderness. And to be honest, if that was the plan. They could just pay for the current 3 year set up and then leave the very next day with a 3 year head start. But I really cant see that happening.

Daegerty

Gerry.L wrote: »

I dont think someone is just going to go off grid into the wilderness.

Doesn't seem like a bad idea tbh. and if someone did that a gun would be handy for hunting their own meat. If someone wanted to live the self sufficient life i don't think they should be prevented from doing so

i suppose you'll never be 100% self sufficient until after the zombie apocolypse but one can get fairly close and Ireland is a good country for it. 3 years is a bit annoying though with all the paper work involved. If they even extended it to 5 it would be a help

gunhappy_ie

We do have a lifetime licence..... it called a dealership :P

leeroybrown

Gerry.L wrote: »

Well someones not going to just disappear.

Not so much the person - the gun. If we had lifetime licensing there would be hundreds of cases of shotguns and rifles that are put away somewhere and just disappear. Not through any malice on the licensee - it'll just happen. A system where these guns are reasonably regularly accounted for is a requirement in my view. The answer is a more consistent and less bureaucratic licensing scheme not the removal of regular licensing.

gunhappy_ie

I have to sat that I wouldnt agree with a lifetime licence either. 3 years is the very max IMO that a firearm should be left before being checked that its still in the possession of the owner with correct serial number.

However I would also like to see Gardai getting more involved with there duties as FO and not ending up being "caught" to do the job on top of other work so they view it as an inconvienence.

Sparks

It's not a win from the point of view of the AGS or the DoJ or the MoJ.
Plus, 40-odd years of licencing would come to at least a thousand euro... at a time when people are complaining that they can't come up with three or four hundred for club memberships.
And what do you do if you get a licence for something that's later banned?

Daegerty

Sparks wrote: »

And what do you do if you get a licence for something that's later banned?

Jeez I hope they're not planning on banning any more things

Sparks

Me as well, but if you're talking lifetime licences, you have to allow for the possibility that it might happen during the 40-odd years...

Cass

I don't think anyone has touched on the subject of changing firearms.

If i change a gun for another and it falls under the guidelines for a substitution then its free. What if it does not. I have paid my 40+ year license fee, now i have to do it again fo another rifle.

The old system was as close to a lifetime license as you would get. The renewals would come out automatically every year without having to apply. It only changed when you changed firearms. This is what they changed for the reasons above (traceabilit, etc).

A lifetime license is unworkable, impractible, expensive, etc. There are other solutions such as the system in the North. One license with multiple firearms on a single license. A photo and barcode on the license with personal details such as address, serial number etc, not shown.

There are many alternatives however the lifetime oe i feel is not one of them. Nothing personal GerryL, its good people are still trying to find alternatives. Some could work others/most won't. Don't forget no matter what we feel would work its not up to us in the end. :rolleyes:

Glensman

To be fair the system in the North is alright.

I pay £50 for 5 years. It's the same if I have one gun or 6 guns. If I want to add or remove a gun I pay £26.

My photo and the serial numbers of all my rifles are on the licence along with my DoB and any conditions attached to the guns.

The one thing I think they should change is that say I want to change my 12g to another 12g, then I should just be able to do a one-on one-off and just pay the £26 to notify them of the change of serial number... As it is currently you have to fill in a load of paperwork and wait a lifetime for the permission to change...

Also, in England, once you are licenced on say a 12g, you can buy another 12g and just notify the authorities that you have added another gun.
After all, you have proven the need/competency for one 12g and you can only shoot one at once- so why not be allowed 2?

Traumadoc

Ezridax wrote: »

I don't think anyone has touched on the subject of changing firearms.

I did

Gerry.L

So it seems no one else is with me on this one. Fair enough. I still think its a good idea.

And leeroybrown, I think I got the wrong end of the stick with what you were getting at earlier. I think your right, it is a valid point that guns could go walkies.

I dont want to be beating a dead horse, so its the last I'll say on the matter. But perhaps give the lifetime license and then have random (or scheduled) checks. Where a garda (or FO) comes to your house and checks the gun and make sure everything is in order.

Also, genuine question here, at what point in our current setup will the gardai check to make sure I still have the gun? Whats stopping me from re-licensing my gun in 3 years time but maybe having lost it the year before?

Traumadoc

The Gardai often visit to check details and security arrangements.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

A lifetime license is unworkable, impractible, expensive, etc. There are other solutions such as the system in the North. One license with multiple firearms on a single license. A photo and barcode on the license with personal details such as address, serial number etc, not shown.

There are many alternatives however the lifetime oe i feel is not one of them. Nothing personal GerryL, its good people are still trying to find alternatives. Some could work others/most won't. Don't forget no matter what we feel would work its not up to us in the end. :rolleyes:

NEWSFLASH!!! Our Continental EU neighbours have lifetime liscenses for hunting and firearms possession and have had so since the 1910s and before!!!.You pass the saftey and hunting courses which are expensive enough to cover their operating costs you have the gun for life,bar you doing somthing daft with it. Or drinking and driving ,or of all things Tax dodging!!!:eek::eek:
You can walk into any gunstore and buy any type of gun within your permit range and walk straight out the door with it.IT IS UP TO YOU to register the gun with your local authorithy and get it on your permit book within ten days. If you dont they wont come looking for you,but if the regular sales book checks with the local gun dealer doesnt tally with your firearms list.Guess who will be visited and looses everything??? Yup YOU!!
Selling a gun...No problem..Sell it to whomever,be they dealer or private individual...You get their details and money,inform the local firearms branch in person,or by sending in the liscense book by snail mail
that you have sold gun number 1234 to joe bloggs ,anytown.They type thru those details on your permit.Put a date offical stamp on it.Job done!Not your problem anymore.Problem is Mr Bloggs's to register the gun with his firearms dept.

Still as traceable as anything,and has worked for nigh on a century.
Yes guns do get nicked occasionaly.But by and large there is enough illegal stuff to satisfy the criminal market,without running the risk of lead poisioning during a spot of B&E.But guns dont "disapper",they are 99.99% accountable for by either the owner or firearms dept.

No alarms,no home inspections,etc.Simply purchase a safe appropriate to the amount of guns you have.Or just build a brick strongroom in your house with a proper inspected and certified strongroom door.

Want to modernise it,all this can be put on a encoded smart card.
Now
WHY wont it work here?
1] It is not dealt with by the police forces.It is dealt with by a civillian dept of your local council.
2]They are not trying to make money out of the gunowner.It is a public service,as much as bin collection or water supply.Ergo,your taxes have paid for it.
3]You dont disapper by moving on the continent.IE the midnite flit.
You have to get clearence from your local council to move to another district,as they must transfer your files to the new council,thats your tax bills ,rates payments etc,your kids school records,car details etc.So it isnt likely that you can do like us,just push off one day and its all behind you.Cos without the council clearence,you wont get power,water,sanitation,your car taxed or a bank account opened,or your kids into the local school.
IOW,a much more organised,disiplined society than we can or would ever be.
4]The police are armed and not worried that ,like here they would be outgunned by somone losing it.As a matter of fact they are relatively indifferent to the amount of firearms owned by civvies,as they know they are not a threat.They have also stated in certain cases that certain laws would not be in the police or civillian gunownership benefits.

So unless Irish society will change,we will be stuck with this beuracratic top heavy,cumbersome liscensing system for the near future.:rolleyes:
Not to mind an irrational fear of sucessive Govts and beauracrats that we are all somhow subversives intent on overthrowing the Irish state at any given moment.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Cass

My comments are based on the situation in IRELAND. Not the continental EU, USA or any other country.

Secondly you say you can get a gun then if you don't register it the cops come looking for you. In Ireland we do the same only backwards. We get authoriation before getting the gun. Means no chasing up needed by An Gardai. So in effect it takes as much man power to do "retrospective" licensing as opposed to pre checked licensing.

Few questions.

1. What countries?
2. What are the fees for the licenses?
3. Are there costs if you change the firearms on your licenses?
4. If so what/how much are they?
5. Are you saying once you license the firearm it is never checked upon again?
6. Would you have any issue selling a firearm to someone that has not been vetted by An Gardai (or any police force)?
7. Considering the amount of firearm holders that were late, very late and still have not applied for their licenses what do you think are the chances of people voluntarily licensing their firearms on time?

marlin vs

I wish I could be guaranteed another 40 year's.

ormondprop

i dont mind re licensing every 3 years, i just wish it was easier and quicker to change guns and that every station followed the same guidelines on licensing, substituting and granting use moderators
i've been waiting over 5 weeks for my substitution for a 223 from a 22 hornet, while kieran1141 got his monday for a 308 from a 223 from the same station and i applied before him
i phoned them 3 times in the last 2 weeks and called into them and every time they took my details and said they'd ring me back later in the day letting me know what the story is and still haven't recieved a call off them in 2 weeks:mad:
really pissing me off, i know of lads who have changed guns in a few days and a few lads who had to wait months, i myself had to wait for about 6 months for my first license for my hornet a few years ago, how can it take so long for some, do they just stack up all the applications until the have no room left on their desk for their doughnuts and cups of coffee before they deal with them

Mr.Flibble

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NEWSFLASH!!! Our Continental EU neighbours have lifetime liscenses for hunting and firearms possession and have had so since the 1910s and before!!!.You pass the saftey and hunting courses which are expensive enough to cover their operating costs you have the gun for life,bar you doing somthing daft with it. Or drinking and driving ,or of all things Tax dodging!!!:eek::eek:
You can walk into any gunstore and buy any type of gun within your permit range and walk straight out the door with it.IT IS UP TO YOU to register the gun with your local authorithy and get it on your permit book within ten days. If you dont they wont come looking for you,but if the regular sales book checks with the local gun dealer doesnt tally with your firearms list.Guess who will be visited and looses everything??? Yup YOU!!
Selling a gun...No problem..Sell it to whomever,be they dealer or private individual...You get their details and money,inform the local firearms branch in person,or by sending in the liscense book by snail mail
that you have sold gun number 1234 to joe bloggs ,anytown.They type thru those details on your permit.Put a date offical stamp on it.Job done!Not your problem anymore.Problem is Mr Bloggs's to register the gun with his firearms dept.

Still as traceable as anything,and has worked for nigh on a century.
Yes guns do get nicked occasionaly.But by and large there is enough illegal stuff to satisfy the criminal market,without running the risk of lead poisioning during a spot of B&E.But guns dont "disapper",they are 99.99% accountable for by either the owner or firearms dept.

No alarms,no home inspections,etc.Simply purchase a safe appropriate to the amount of guns you have.Or just build a brick strongroom in your house with a proper inspected and certified strongroom door.

Want to modernise it,all this can be put on a encoded smart card.

I'm shocked. They probably allow reloading as well.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Our Continental EU neighbours have lifetime liscenses for hunting and firearms possession and have had so since the 1910s and before!

...

WHY wont it work here?
1...
2...
3...
4...

and (5) We've made an art form of pulling strokes, pushing the edges of the laws, sometimes ignoring them completely and by now both the law-makers and the law-breakers have gotten to the point where each acts perversely using the behaviour of the other side as a justification. The european people you're talking about Grizzly, by and large, don't do that, don't even think that way, and do not consider breaking the law a game, a pastime, "roguish" or some sort of badge of honour.

ormondprop

Sparks wrote: »

and (5) We've made an art form of pulling strokes, pushing the edges of the laws, sometimes ignoring them completely and by now both the law-makers and the law-breakers have gotten to the point where each acts perversely using the behaviour of the other side as a justification. The european people you're talking about Grizzly, by and large, don't do that, don't even think that way, and do not consider breaking the law a game, a pastime, "roguish" or some sort of badge of honour.

i thought they are the same thing

Sparks

ormondprop wrote: »

i thought they are the same thing

In quite a few cases, it would seem.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

My comments are based on the situation in IRELAND. Not the continental EU, USA or any other country.

Well, maybe then we should stop taking our own insular attitudes and views as the be all and end all .We ARE in the EU you know!Maybe we could get some benefit from it too .

Secondly you say you can get a gun then if you don't register it the cops come looking for you. In Ireland we do the same only backwards. We get authoriation before getting the gun. Means no chasing up needed by An Gardai. So in effect it takes as much man power to do "retrospective" licensing as opposed to pre checked licensing.

I DO know how it works here....:D.Its actually a council offical who will be on your case,and they have alot of legal power and authorithy.

However over there you do not need any police checks!! Simply because the police are NOT involved in the liscensing procedure at all!! You go away do whatever is required in the tests required by the law,pass or fail them,resit,or not. Get qualified by the revelant body,get your liscense to hunt or target shoot.Have a nice life..Go buy your guns,go shooting! Simples!! There is an assumption over there that you are a responsible adult citizen,not inclined to usurp the States power[as if you could] so therefore you have proven your worth by being tested to do a relatively dangerous activity without let or harm to your fellow citizens,as you know that you can,and will be prosecuted to the letter of the law if you do.
So be it on your head if you want to have an unliscensed firearm in the place.
Thats a straight off ,no parole no arguement,no plea bargining five year stretch.

Also there are good political and historical reasons for not involvig the police in the liscensing procedure which I wont go into,but Jews and 3rd Reich should say alot.



Want to do it the criminal way...There are more illegal firearms in Germany than there are legal ones.[Bundes Kriminal Amt{German version of the US FBI} stats of mid 1990s] Dont get caught mind,as you will never have a chance of owning a gun again over there .


Few questions.

What countries

?

Germany,ASFIK Benelux and Sweden and Norway as well,As I most fammilar with the German system I will use that as the example.

What are the fees for the licenses?

A sixweek intensive course in hunting liscense which entitles you to as many long arms as you want,and only two handguns.Will set you back the bones of 2500 plus euros.You will be taught all aspects of hunting from botany to music,via firearms law,biology,firearms handling.Including practical experiance from tree stand building to game butchering.
Then a oral and prctical test in all of the above with a pass rate of 80%.Then a shooting test with rifle and shotgun pass rate to qualify 80% or higher. Flunk it and you can resit it at appx 250 euros per module.
Or you can take your time and do the whole lot over a three/five year period as an apprentice hunter in somones game reserve.If you can find somone that is that will take you on.
After all that the issuance of your liscense costs you appx 100 euros and you have it till the day you die!

BUT that is the cheapest part of being a hunter over there!It is a lifestyle choice,not a hobby.You then need to find a reserve that you can afford,[appx 20k plus PA] or that the local farmers coop will let you join...Or join a consortium that will accept you,and start pulling your weight seriously in the place in the off season.So the community gets its money out of you twentyfold PA what an Irish hunter puts into their beat.

Imagine how many deer hunters we would have here if you had to pay for damage to a new forest of saplings.Or a herd of wild pigs ate somones potato patch overnight???You as a hunter own the game,so you are responsible for it..

If you want to be a target shooter..Go to a recognised club of your disipline of choice,join up and be a probie for 6/12 months.Be trained in the disipline and then sit your theory [written and oral] and practical test.Get qualified in that,go get your sport shooter liscense,and buy whatever firearms you want for your disipline.Usually thats 10/15 long guns for the particular disipline and 5[?] handguns per disipline.
Want to take up another disipline,join that particular club jump the probie stage,as they recognise you know how to be safe with firearms,do the exams ,buy whatever guns you want for the new disipline.
Costs are all in the exams and training,the firearms dept in the council offices cost about 100 euros to issue.

Too much hassle?Take up airgun and airpistol shooting..They are not classified as firearms,[logically].Every village,town and even some secondary schools have an air rifle range.
Up to 1974,even 22lr rifles and pistols could be bought over the counter like air guns.That went courtsey of the Baader Meinhoff fukactin around.:mad:

Are there costs if you change the firearms on your licenses

?

Nope,nothing.It is a public service paid for by your rates and taxes.

Are you saying once you license the firearm it is never checked upon again?

Bar that you are doing somthing daft with it,or it was used in a criminal offence,and in that case you will lose them all and be prosecuted for the offence.Get a DUI conviction,your guns are gone as long as the conviction lasts.Ditto your pilots liscense, small boat liscense too if you have them.

Possibly at a traffic checkpoint,in which they would be looking for somone specific or which are only set up for things like escaped criminals from a bank robbery,riots in the cities,massive accidents,etc.Not for checking tax and insurance or such.[Which is done by simply looking at your rear liscense plate .There is a little colour coded disc on the plate for your tax,not a big hunk of paper on the windscreen.;)]

And if you mean random inspections like we have here.NO!
There was/is an attempt to do this but it is clashing with the constitutional right of the scanticty of the home,which is involate without good reason and a search warrent.
So IOW a police officer cant just pitch up at your door and demand to inspect your guns or safe at any old time of the day.The police must have "Good reason" to inspect your firearms,and can only inspect them under warrent for criminal investigation.
Nor is it really their patch,as the liscensing is handled by a civillian authorithy,so a civvie with a badge and a lot of power will more than likely show up.IF this goes ahead.
As for the safes and are they correct.you simply send them nowadays an email or snailmail with a pic of the safe and its serial number to the firearms liscensing dept.No need for officaldom to go tramping around the countryside inspecting safes.

Would you have any issue selling a firearm to someone that has not been vetted by An Gardai (or any police force)?

Let me answer this another way..Are you concerned if somone buys a car or tractor unit of an articulated rig off you are they liscensed,or actually know to drive it and have a clean insurance record???
Do we ask them for that information and a garda clearence before we sell it to them??
It is a question of the law of the land..If that is legal to do so in Germany or wherever...And that is the law..why should I or anyone else worry about what that person is or is not??You sold it to them under the law of that countries firearms acts.So to answer it in a roundabout way.if it was Herr Maier,Mouiseur Pierre,Senor Luigi,etc.Not really concerned...If it is Pat Murphy..very concerned,unfortunatly.:(

Considering the amount of firearm holders that were late, very late and still have not applied for their licenses what do you think are the chances of people voluntarily licensing their firearms on time?

Generalisation..We cant say everyone was late because they werent arsed to do it right away.It was a shambles and there have been screwups aplenty in paperwork, procedure and form filling,not to mind some bloddymindness on both parties parts..And in the German case the onus is on you the holder to register it within ten working days,and you only do this once..ever!!
Be a different story if say a CAB agent[just to give you a possible equivlent in power of the agencies of the council] showed up at your door and started asking about the
unliscensed gun.

Bottom line is ..You are right!!! It wont work here.As we Irish as a race are too untrustworthy,beligerent,rebellious against authorithy,and just downright incompetant to attempt anything like this that normal Western European countries have been doing sucessfully for over 100 years in various different guises or formats.We dont have the mindset or disipline or trust in our personal or public servants lives or unbiasedness to do this.
We are just too unruly to be trusting ourselves or those in authorithy.Or authorithy to trust us to do the right thing.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

and (5) We've made an art form of pulling strokes, pushing the edges of the laws, sometimes ignoring them completely and by now both the law-makers and the law-breakers have gotten to the point where each acts perversely using the behaviour of the other side as a justification. The european people you're talking about Grizzly, by and large, don't do that, don't even think that way, and do not consider breaking the law a game, a pastime, "roguish" or some sort of badge of honour.

Dammit!! wish I had read that before my last post,and saved meself a load of typing!!:D;)

Glensman

ormondprop wrote: »

i dont mind re licensing every 3 years, i just wish it was easier and quicker to change guns and that every station followed the same guidelines on licensing, substituting and granting use moderators
i've been waiting over 5 weeks for my substitution for a 223 from a 22 hornet, while kieran1141 got his monday for a 308 from a 223 from the same station and i applied before him
i phoned them 3 times in the last 2 weeks and called into them and every time they took my details and said they'd ring me back later in the day letting me know what the story is and still haven't recieved a call off them in 2 weeks:mad:
really pissing me off, i know of lads who have changed guns in a few days and a few lads who had to wait months, i myself had to wait for about 6 months for my first license for my hornet a few years ago, how can it take so long for some, do they just stack up all the applications until the have no room left on their desk for their doughnuts and cups of coffee before they deal with them

Now that sounds EXACTLY like we have up here :mad:

Daegerty

20k a year? thats far too much. no casual hunters and target shooters over there then?

Longranger

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[

A sixweek intensive course in hunting liscense which entitles you to as many long arms as you want,and only two handguns.Will set you back the bones of 2500 plus euros.You will be taught all aspects of hunting from botany to music,via firearms law,biology,firearms handling.Including practical experiance from tree stand building to game butchering.
Then a oral and prctical test in all of the above with a pass rate of 80%.Then a shooting test with rifle and shotgun pass rate to qualify 80% or higher. Flunk it and you can resit it at appx 250 euros per module.
Or you can take your time and do the whole lot over a three/five year period as an apprentice hunter in somones game reserve.If you can find somone that is that will take you on.
After all that the issuance of your liscense costs you appx 100 euros and you have it till the day you die!

BUT that is the cheapest part of being a hunter over there!It is a lifestyle choice,not a hobby.You then need to find a reserve that you can afford,[appx 20k plus PA] or that the local farmers coop will let you join...Or join a consortium that will accept you,and start pulling your weight seriously in the place in the off season.So the community gets its money out of you twentyfold PA what an Irish hunter puts into their beat.

A lifestyle choice!:eek::eek: I can't afford to pay 600 euro to join a range in this country! Never mind 20 feckin' grand:mad: Things may not be great the way they are but at least I can afford to go out and do a bit of game shooting and some vermin control here and there.:cool: If that's the way forward (and the cost)for lifetime licences you can keep them!!;)

Grizzly 45

@Dagerty
No thats for the costs of running your game reserve/shoot.You lease the reserve off a local coop of farmers whose land and forest you will be hunting on for ten years.
They own the land and forest but unlike here, do not automatically own the shooting rights.Thats two totally different things .So you as a hunter are responsible for crop damage,by game to the farmer,and thats about a quater of your above sum in payments PA in crop damage.Then you have the standard costs of insurance,vechicle up keep,feed and fodder in the winter months for deer and boar and birds.And all the usual stuff of buildin materials etc to build and repair feed pens,tree stands etc.Take the 20K as flexiable depending on the size of the reserve.Thats on average what it costs us on ours PA. However if you have a consortium,obviously the work and costs go down per hunter.BUT you have to pull your weight..As you wont be in the consortium long if you as just riding on everyones slack,and want to just shoot and not put in the work of keeping the place in order for 8 months of the year.We had to ditch three of them over the years including one relative..:eek:
So a "casual hunter" as we know it in IRL/UK does not exist in Germany.It is a lifestyle choice of appx 6/8 months work,and 4 months enjoyment.

Target shooters are different.Once you are in the Verein or club ,you are in.But you will be expected to show up at least once a month or more,which you undoubtly will to go shooting in matches etc,as you have been a probie there for 6/12 months already.Costs arent as much as hunting though,and it is abit more relaxed in time and dedication.But it still requires work on your part to do so.
So a fellow jut pitching up once a month to shoot is going to be looked at as abit odd too,and might find himself having a chat about is "everything all right??"So again a "casual target shooter" of the kind we know over here doesnt really exist either.Sure,there might be folks who attend more than others,but a bloke who pitches up once every six months and expects to shoot in comps is unheard of.

Grizzly 45

Longranger wrote: »

A lifestyle choice!:eek::eek: I can't afford to pay 600 euro to join a range in this country! Never mind 20 feckin' grand:mad: Things may not be great the way they are but at least I can afford to go out and do a bit of game shooting and some vermin control here and there.:cool: If that's the way forward (and the cost)for lifetime licences you can keep them!!;)

Thats why German hunters are in comparision to the pouplation a very small minority.Even smaller than irish hunters.;)
But get this straight! It is NOT 20K per annum per person!!!It can be if you want it to be and are wealthy enough to have your own private shoot.Some people can and do so.Other mere mortals set up consortiums and bring down the costs for themselves.
As you might have an account,a farmer,a mechanic,a sawmill operator in the consortium.They bring their skills to the table and thereby drop the overall costs of running the shoot.eg the farmer provides the tractor and machinery to set up a wild forest lawn for deer to browse on,sawmill operator provides free lumber to build the facilities etc.

Nor do they have the still Ripoff Ireland prices on everything we have here.The Germans would have rioted along time ago and sacked Berlin if the average household had to pay the prices we do here for foodstuffs.:mad:

Also this only applies if you are hunter,not a target shooter..Nor does it mean you have to hunt only in Germany..Many qualified hunters simply hop in their cars and drive east to hunt in Poland,or Hungary.Where you can pay to hunt and be assured of somthing to be shot without 99% of the hassle back in Germany.

So this has absolutely nothing to do with the liscensing system!!!!
You have a myriad of options to ligitimatly own guns over there that would make our and our Govts head spin.:D