Would you get your child baptised?

Mike 1972

Wibbs wrote: »

They seem pretty good reasons to a new parent in Ireland to be fair.

the schools one is pretty debatable. The other two are completely ridiculous.

gmb

I am an Atheist ex-protestant and my wife is an Atheist ex-catholic.

Our kids were both christened in an Irish catholic church simply so they can learn the ropes along with the other kids at the school, not be singled out as different and make their choices later as we did.

I think that taking this approach is no more damaging than telling them about Father Christmas.

It seems though that the local church expects us to start visiting them occasionally in the run up to 1st communion (which we will not do as we are atheist) so it seems that our kids will denied the chance to continue with the Catholic faith.

Seems an odd approach taken by the church to me, you would think they would be glad to have our kids follow the faith.

andala

No, we haven't baptised either of our boys. My husband and I are atheists so going to church and making an oath to raise the child catholic would be utter hypocrisy and this is something I consider unethical. I want my children to be truthful to themselves and stand by the things they believe in. If I consider religion nothing but a gathering of folks who believe pure fantasy, I'm not going to sign my children up to that club. I want them to be able to make their own decisions when they're ready. Should they decide at some point that they want to join a religion, I'm not going to try to stop them. But I don't want to teach them that hypocrisy is justified by general tendencies. I couldn't care less that most kids their age are baptised. If the parents are believers, it's perfectly understandable they are going to baptise the child. Why atheists do it is beyond me.

It's also not true to say no harm done. The child is going to be listed as catholic in the parish records and is going to learn that their parents think it's ok to lie. I'm not talking about lying to imaginary creatures, but to the congregation, people you know etc. How are you going to explain it to your child when they grow up? "yeah, I think it's all a lot of b*llox but I thought it'd be good for you..."

Sure, if you believe in conformism at any price and in all circumstances then it's your choice. I prefer to live in accordance with my beliefs.

Pete M.

No and No.

Wouldn't baptise a Dog.

And if you do it just for convenience, then you're more faithless than any atheist.

And the whole inclusion/money/respect thing is incorrect in my experience too.

positron

gmb wrote: »

I am an Atheist ex-protestant and my wife is an Atheist ex-catholic.

Our kids were both christened in an Irish catholic church simply so they can learn the ropes along with the other kids at the school, not be singled out as different and make their choices later as we did.

I think that taking this approach is no more damaging than telling them about Father Christmas.

It seems though that the local church expects us to start visiting them occasionally in the run up to 1st communion (which we will not do as we are atheist) so it seems that our kids will denied the chance to continue with the Catholic faith.

Seems an odd approach taken by the church to me, you would think they would be glad to have our kids follow the faith.

IMHO, your approach is as bad as the church's approach. Both wrong.

Joey the lips

I enjoy reading the comments where people say....


No... i wont baptise my child because i want them to decide for themselves.... Blahh Blahh blahh


Well this is my take on that....


My parents kept the doors locked because they did not want me to run out on the road and get killed. They feed me good food even though junk food clearly tastes nicer and i would have wanted that. They gave me a spiritual upbringing because as catholics they wanted me to join them in heven(although i debate gods love slightly- I dont see why i wont be sitting next to a hindu or muslem on judgement day)

I raise my kids catholic because i believe in god and tbh i want the same for them my parents want. However if when 18 my child looks into religion and decideds against it. I as a catholic will pray for their soul and most likely offer mine in there place if there is a hell.

So you tell me...On the face of it. Am i a hypocrite or do i appear to love and care for my kids....

positron

Joey the lips wrote: »

So you tell me...On the face of it. Am i a hypocrite or do i appear to love and care for my kids....

You sound normal to me. But you are probably failing to see the bad side of the Church that's trying to 'benefit' from your faith, again that's not serious either. What's bad is when that Church directly or indirectly makes life hard for everyone else who doesn't fit your description. That's all.

gmb

andala wrote: »

No, we haven't baptised either of our boys. My husband and I are atheists so going to church and making an oath to raise the child catholic would be utter hypocrisy and this is something I consider unethical. I want my children to be truthful to themselves and stand by the things they believe in. If I consider religion nothing but a gathering of folks who believe pure fantasy, I'm not going to sign my children up to that club. I want them to be able to make their own decisions when they're ready. Should they decide at some point that they want to join a religion, I'm not going to try to stop them. But I don't want to teach them that hypocrisy is justified by general tendencies. I couldn't care less that most kids their age are baptised. If the parents are believers, it's perfectly understandable they are going to baptise the child. Why atheists do it is beyond me.

It's also not true to say no harm done. The child is going to be listed as catholic in the parish records and is going to learn that their parents think it's ok to lie. I'm not talking about lying to imaginary creatures, but to the congregation, people you know etc. How are you going to explain it to your child when they grow up? "yeah, I think it's all a lot of b*llox but I thought it'd be good for you..."

Sure, if you believe in conformism at any price and in all circumstances then it's your choice. I prefer to live in accordance with my beliefs.

I don't disagree with your comments above but the dilemma is how to balance what is right with ensuring that your children are not discriminated against

Personally, the fact that our kids names are on some Parish records is not going to stop me sleeping at night and admitting that Santa doesn't exist will probably cause more hardship than admitting that we don't believe in god (although he/she may exist of course)

Where I live then unless you are seen to be Catholic and play Hurling then your kids will struggle to get into the better schools so if we stand on our principles then our kids could suffer.

When Ireland becomes as liberal and modern as the rest of Europe then we don't have to follow this route but our kids will be drawing a pension by then and probably living somewhere else

JohnMarston

Pete M. wrote: »

No and No.

Wouldn't baptise a Dog.

And if you do it just for convenience, then you're more faithless than any atheist.

And the whole inclusion/money/respect thing is incorrect in my experience too.

Hear hear.

I was raised in a town where catholicism pretty much ran the schools. Nuns and priests everywhere. And the principal listened to them.

I was raised in a different faith to my counterparts at school. At the start of every school year my parent(s) would come in to the teacher and explain they didn't want their child taught anything religious. I was never baptised, never had communion, confirmation, etc. I was ridiculed for that fact by my classmates.
But do i have any resentment towards my parents? No. In fact i respect them for sticking to their beliefs

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

My parents kept the doors locked because they did not want me to run out on the road and get killed. They feed me good food even though junk food clearly tastes nicer and i would have wanted that. They gave me a spiritual upbringing because as catholics they wanted me to join them in heven(although i debate gods love slightly- I dont see why i wont be sitting next to a hindu or muslem on judgement day)

They keep the door locked and feed you nutritious food because there are demonstrably tangible benefits to both: if you run out on the road, you will die; if you do not eat real food, your body and mind will not develop correctly and you will be faced with serious problems in the future, or you could die.

Your comparison is flawed because you have yet to demonstrate that there is any tangible, life-saving benefit to being a Catholic. Additionally, at some point, your kids will have the reasoning skills to be able to decide that running out in front of a car or eating crap is a bad idea, but people often don't outgrow faith - and even if they did, you can't leave the Catholic Church any more, so you've signed them up to be members for life, regardless of what they actually believe.

Joey the lips wrote:

So you tell me...On the face of it. Am i a hypocrite or do i appear to love and care for my kids....

There's no doubt that you love and care for your kids. You're doing what you think is best and I'm just sceptical of that.

Morag

'Being left out' is the lamest reason for signing your kid up to a religion you don't practice and don't believe in, and don't agree to the main tenants.

Krusader

Sharrow wrote: »

'Being left out' is the lamest reason for signing your kid up to a religion you don't practice and don't believe in, and don't agree to the main tenants.

Any reason would be lame and stink of hypocracy but such is the world we live in

coffee_cake

Joey the lips wrote: »

I enjoy reading the comments where people say....


No... i wont baptise my child because i want them to decide for themselves.... Blahh Blahh blahh


So you tell me...On the face of it. Am i a hypocrite or do i appear to love and care for my kids....

I don't see what's wrong with the different approaches, joey. Some people prefer to have the kids decide; you as an actual believer think it's best for your kids for you to decide.

JohnMarston

Children are very perceptive and can detect a parents hypocrisy by having them join a religion they don't practice. Yeah fine example you're setting

prinz

Yes I will. However for communion and confirmation I hope to do that abroad where they are done when the children are older as I think the set up in the Catholic Church in Ireland is flawed to say the least.

I have more respect to the folks who say 'No I won't because I don't believe in any of it' than those who say 'Yes I will for cultural/habit/whatever reason even though I don't believe in any of it'.

cocokay

JohnMarston wrote: »

Children are very perceptive and can detect a parents hypocrisy by having them join a religion they don't practice. Yeah fine example you're setting

i remember i would get soooo angry at being sent to mass on a sunday morning with my brother who was 2 years younger, when all we wanted to do was stay home n play! my parents would stay at home with our baby brother. as the youngest he never got subjected to weekly mass as he would have just messed around in the church if we brought him & my parents couldn't be bothered to bring him themselves when he got older. i'm curious as to whether my best mate will be getting up on a sunday morning in a few yrs to bring her daughter to mass or whether she'll be sent on her own with siblings or friends to please granny...total hypocrisy!

ryoishin

You are baptised a Christian and confirmed a Cathoilic. Communion is supposed to come after confirmation but we do it ar*e ways in Ireland.

If you slap a bishop you could be excommunicated...... theres always a way out.

Elisabeth Blanctorche

No way, the sooner the world is eradicated of religious hocus pocus - the better.

Elliemental

I'm an Atheist, and not mercenary enough to get any child I may have baptised, solely for the presents. So, no. No baptisms for me.

GrizzlyMan

No Way! so pointless! let them decide when they are old enough to make there own minds!

Mickeroo

Marsden wrote: »

Its not just about religion, your child will feel left out when its communion time and they dont get to join in.

If most of the kids in the school were islamic would you convert?

ShooterSF

Sorry if this has already been said,

JaxxYChicK wrote: »

I know a lot of people who are still heavily influenced by the opinions of their parents in this regard, even if they themselves sit on the religious fence. During a discussion with a few friends I was told that I'd be doing my child a "disservice" if I refused to baptise them, that it would be wrong for me to deny my child a place in Heaven should it exist or should anything happen to my child. That stance disturbed me to be honest.

This is called "Pascal's Wager". The claim being that it's a no lose bet as if there is a heaven they get in otherwise it's status quo. There are plenty of flaws in this approach as any regular in the Atheist/Agnostic forum will tell you.

JaxxYChicK wrote: »

You're absolutely right, and the strange thing is I have other friends that I would consider fairly devout, and we've never had a falling out over anything to do with religion. It's about respect really IMO; if you don't have it, then you're not worth my time or energy.

I find those that are devout actually tend to have more respect for non-belief as they have their reasons and you yours. It is more the a-la-carte catholics who continue their belief based on tradition, Pascal's Wager , some strange nationalism (that to be Irish is to be Catholic) or some combination that will hassle you as they, unlike the devout believers, don't see why you would not be a part of it, after all it doesn't come up in their day to day lives. Sure you can just ignore the parts you don't like!

MadameCholet

christening is a christian custom not just a roman catholic one.

I think an interest option on your poll would have been 'get your child christened to get them into a school'.

MadameCholet

MadameCholet wrote: »

'get your child christened to get them into a school'.

Excuse me while I emigrate to a saner country.

philologos

I don't see what baptism should have to do with school. The two things should be entirely different. Baptism should be worth doing in and of itself if you are a Christian. If not I don't see why you should have to make some false promises before a God that you don't believe in to get your child into school.

Mickeroo

philologos wrote: »

I don't see what baptism should have to do with school. The two things should be entirely different. Baptism should be worth doing in and of itself if you are a Christian. If not I don't see why you should have to make some false promises before a God that you don't believe in to get your child into school.

Unfortunatley thats the only way to get your child into a lot of(not all) good schools in this country.

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

Unfortunatley thats the only way to get your child into a lot of(not all) good schools in this country.

That's ridiculous. If all of the atheist, non-Christian and don't-care-but-would-baptise-my-kids-to-get-them-into-school parents banded together, it would be much easier to demand places for non-Christian children in schools.

How does anyone expect things to change when people just go along with the status quo?

McTigs

My daughter is not baptised because i'm not religious and neither is my girlfriend. The reasons why i don't want the catholic church anywhere near my daughter are valid and plentiful

For those non religious people who baptised their kids or will baptise their kids "to get them into good schools", fair play to ye for doing what ye can to maintain the ridiculous status quo.

ShooterSF

philologos wrote: »

I don't see what baptism should have to do with school. The two things should be entirely different. Baptism should be worth doing in and of itself if you are a Christian. If not I don't see why you should have to make some false promises before a God that you don't believe in to get your child into school.

You will find I'd imagine all atheists in agreement with you here. The problem is it "should" have nothing to with it but it isn't. If that were to change then it would stop this: "If not I don't see why you should have to make some false promises before a God that you don't believe in to get your child into school."

If, as it comes across, you meant your post as a pro-secular one then fair play!

philologos

ShooterSF wrote: »

You will find I'd imagine all atheists in agreement with you here. The problem is it "should" have nothing to with it but it isn't. If that were to change then it would stop this: "If not I don't see why you should have to make some false promises before a God that you don't believe in to get your child into school."

If, as it comes across, you meant your post as a pro-secular one then fair play!

There were people in my primary school who weren't baptised. For example a good friend of mine is a Pentecostal and he was baptised when he was 17. I went to it on invitation and it was a pretty meaningful event. Yet it didn't keep him from school because he wasn't baptised.

It isn't only atheists that these conditions affect, it affects Christians which don't encourage infant baptism and other non-Christian religions. I think it should be changed in general, one to restore the significance of baptism and secondly to support fairness in respect to entry requirements in education. That means atheists shouldn't have to baptise their children and promise things they have no interest in keeping.

I don't believe we should get rid of faith schools, but I do think that there should be both freedom of and freedom from religion in our society.