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Would you get your child baptised?

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    #182
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Tis_yer_woman wrote: »
    So what if the Catholic church no longer allows defection?
    If you no longer regard yourself as a Catholic, then so be it. Religion is a personal choice.
    Okay, from a statistical perspective there are false numbers being held somewhere. But as far as I was aware, there have been a large number of
    people who were recorded as Catholics (cos they were baptised) but would not regard themselves as RC anymore but they didn't officially 'defect' at
    a time when they could. Finally, who would take these statistics seriously if they have been suspended at a time when there is a serious falloff in followers?

    sweet.
    zombie.
    jesus.

    when you're unable to leave a church because THEY say you can't, its no longer a personal choice. you may not believe, but they still count you as a member, thats the bigger issue.


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    #183
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Tis_yer_woman wrote: »
    Okay, from a statistical perspective there are false numbers being held somewhere. But as far as I was aware, there have been a large number of
    people who were recorded as Catholics (cos they were baptised) but would not regard themselves as RC anymore but they didn't officially 'defect' at
    a time when they could. Finally, who would take these statistics seriously if they have been suspended at a time when there is a serious falloff in followers?

    What does it matter? We have censuses carried out by the government for the purpose of official statistics. If the internally generated statistics of the RCC are off then it has no bearing on the lives on anyone but practicing Catholics (And even at that a negligible effect).


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    #184
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    krudler wrote: »
    when you're unable to leave a church because THEY say you can't, its no longer a personal choice. you may not believe, but they still count you as a member, thats the bigger issue.

    You can either complain about it all day on boards.ie or do the sensible thing and work around the technicality.


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    #185
    Jaxxy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,297 ✭✭✭Jaxxy


    krudler wrote: »
    massive props for naming one of the unobvious Star Wars planets btw :pac:

    It's where the ABY training academy is. (Neeeeerrrrddd :P)
    Nevore wrote: »
    Mhmm. I was none too happy with the defection anyway, since it didn't allow the expurgation of your baptismal record, only it's alteration to read "defected" (presumably stamped on in red ink, like a top secret stamp in the movies :pac:) but now they don't allow you even that little solace.

    Kicking myself that I didn't take advantage of hte opportunity when I had it.

    Currently also kicking myself. I even remember looking over the countmeout site years ago.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    They aren't choosing your beliefs for you.

    What they have is a baptismal register listing all those who were baptised. If you were indeed baptised then being included on the register of all those baptised by the church in question is (To my mind at least) perfectly acceptable.

    I do not see how it infringes on your right to choose your beliefs. Neither can I understand why you are so appalled. By virtue of the very post of yours that I quoted, there can be no question of infringement of rights. At the end of the day, it is yourself and not a register that determines your beliefs.

    You continue to miss my point. Of course it infringes on my human rights. I choose my own beliefs yes, but these beliefs are not recognised by the Catholic church by way of their embargo on defection, and therefore officially and statistically I remain a Catholic, when I don't want to be.

    I should have the right to say "Hey Catholic church, I'm not one of you anymore, make it official" if I so please.


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    #186
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    krudler wrote: »
    Well given the leader of the Catholic church was a Nazi, but officially not by choice, is he still part of the Nazi party?

    He was Hitler Youth, not a Nazi. There is a difference.

    That aside I do take your point. On paper yes he was a member but in real life.....well you'd have to ask him.


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    #187
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You can either complain about it all day on boards.ie or do the sensible thing and work around the technicality.

    how? I want to leave but cant.It should be as simple as that.


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    #188
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    krudler wrote: »
    how? I want to leave but cant.It should be as simple as that.

    Krudler unless you have some-one forcing you to go to church every sunday or to prayer every morning or evening etc etc I really don't see what the issue is for you and others.

    You never ever have to go near so much as a crucifix on the wall if you don't want to.

    Chill a little.


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    #189
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Biggins wrote: »
    ...But (and I mention this with the greatest of respect and non-wish to appear to be singling yourself out in particular) in such cases as you have outlined, he has no other official choice now.
    He's signed up to one now and now to this day they do and will officially refuse to let him go.
    He might have choice in theory and in heart but as far as the state will record for the rest of his life, he's stuck with just one organisation - for ever.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the only place the state records your religion is in the Census? Is it recorded elsewhere too (by the state; I know the Church keeps you on its own books forever)?


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    #190
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    JaxxYChicK wrote: »
    You continue to miss my point. Of course it infringes on my human rights.
    Statistics being held by a religious organisation that you no longer believe in are infringing on your human rights?
    I choose my own beliefs yes, but these beliefs are not recognised by the Catholic church by way of their embargo on defection, and therefore officially and statistically I remain a Catholic, when I don't want to be.
    "Officially" and "statistically" you are what you said you were on the census form back in April of this year. The government uses data collected from the Census for state decisions and the Catholic church uses data collected from baptismal registers for Church decisions that have absolutely no effect whatsoever on your life.
    I should have the right to say "Hey Catholic church, I'm not one of you anymore, make it official" if I so please.
    Why don't you then? Tell them you've converted to another religion and refuse to say which one. Or if they're adamant tell them any other religion.


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    #191
    Jaxxy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,297 ✭✭✭Jaxxy


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Statistics being held by a religious organisation that you no longer believe in are infringing on your human rights?

    Yes, because I don't want to be a part of that organisation anymore.
    "Officially" and "statistically" you are what you said you were on the census form back in April of this year. The government uses data collected from the Census for state decisions and the Catholic church uses data collected from baptismal registers for Church decisions that have absolutely no effect whatsoever on your life.

    They don't need to have an effect on my life. I don't want to be one of their statistics, no matter where they got their data from. It's that simple.
    Why don't you then? Tell them you've converted to another religion and refuse to say which one. Or if they're adamant tell them any other religion.

    Apparently you're not allowed.


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    #192
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    krudler wrote: »
    how? I want to leave but cant.It should be as simple as that.
    Tell them you've converted to another religion or denomination of Christianity and refuse to say which one.


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    #193
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    He was Hitler Youth, not a Nazi. There is a difference.

    That aside I do take your point. On paper yes he was a member but in real life.....well you'd have to ask him.

    right, Nazis were adults who chose that path, the Hitler youth were kids indoctrinated into a belief system that....oh.


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    #194
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Ask your local Rabbi if you can join his synagogue. He will ask you if you have a letter of leaving from your former religion.

    /whistles "there may be trouble ahead".


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    #195
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Statistics being held by a religious organisation that you no longer believe in are infringing on your human rights?


    "Officially" and "statistically" you are what you said you were on the census form back in April of this year. The government uses data collected from the Census for state decisions and the Catholic church uses data collected from baptismal registers for Church decisions that have absolutely no effect whatsoever on your life.


    Why don't you then? Tell them you've converted to another religion and refuse to say which one. Or if they're adamant tell them any other religion.
    I agree... I don't see the big deal with the Church keeping you on their books. I mean I could start my own religion tomorrow and conduct a made-up ceremony where I make you a member without your consent, and never let you leave. Doesn't make a difference really. There's nothing special about the Catholic Church that being in their registry as opposed to the Daveism registry will have an effect on you.

    Let clubs like this have whatever crazy rules they like. The point is that they're internal rules.

    If it's the case that the state also records you as a Catholic for life, then that's the real issue that should be addressed. AFAIK though, it's just the Census that religion is recorded in, and you can vote with your conscience there.


    On the topic - No I won't be baptising my child if/when I have one. I'm sure there'll be a bit of fuss over it cos it's traditional, but we'll get past that. Hopefully Ruairi Quinn kicks on and maybe the child might get an education too!


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    #196
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Tell them you've converted to another religion or denomination of Christianity and refuse to say which one.

    you're not really paying attention are you? you CAN'T officially defect anymore. and anyway you should just be able to leave, end of.


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    #197
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    JaxxYChicK wrote: »
    Yes, because I don't want to be a part of that organisation anymore.
    You aren't. You are what you are and not what a piece of paper in an office says you are. Least of all an office of an organisation in which you are disassociated with.
    They don't need to have an effect on my life. I don't want to be one of their statistics, no matter where they got their data from. It's that simple.
    You were baptised by the Catholic Church, were you not? Unless you can somehow turn back time and not get baptised then I do not see the issue in being placed on the register of baptisms. You were baptised and the register records baptisms and as such is perfectly valid.


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    #198
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Why don't you then? Tell them you've converted to another religion and refuse to say which one. Or if they're adamant tell them any other religion.
    Actually, I know of people who changed religion away from the Catholic church 20+ years ago. Bizarrely the Catholic church still considered them as members up until the did the whole defecting thing about 10 years ago. Since anyone who wants to can't actually do that any more, there is now literally no way to leave.


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    #199
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    krudler wrote: »
    you're not really paying attention are you? you CAN'T officially defect anymore. and anyway you should just be able to leave, end of.
    It's not the end of the world. Stop sensationalising.

    A church in which you are no longer an active member of have you down as being baptised by them (A valid statistic).

    Who cares if you can't "officially" defect? What does it matter? If someone wants to leave the Catholic church or convert to another denomination of Christianity then by all means they can do so. That does not mean that they were not baptised by the RCC at one point in time.

    If you want to talk about infringements of human rights and freedom of choice talk about religions that instruct their members to physically punish apostates. Not ones that merely keep a record of your baptism.


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    #200
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    It's not the end of the world. Stop sensationalising.

    A church in which you are no longer an active member of have you down as being baptised by them (A valid statistic).

    Who cares if you can't "officially" defect? What does it matter? If someone wants to leave the Catholic church or convert to another denomination of Christianity then by all means they can do so. That does not mean that they were not baptised by the RCC at one point in time.

    If you want to talk about infringements of human rights and freedom of choice talk about religions that instruct their members to physically punish apostates. Not ones that merely keep a record of your baptism.

    then what does it matter that people do want to defect? if the church wasnt the organisation it is then it should be a simple matter of people being stricken from their records


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    #201
    Jaxxy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,297 ✭✭✭Jaxxy


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You aren't. You are what you are and not what a piece of paper in an office says you are. Least of all an office of an organisation in which you are disassociated with.


    You were baptised by the Catholic Church, were you not? Unless you can somehow turn back time and not get baptised then I do not see the issue in being placed on the register of baptisms. You were baptised and the register records baptisms and as such is perfectly valid.

    This is surely going around in circles.

    No, certainly I am not what a piece of paper says I am. That doesn't mean that the piece of paper should not be changed accordingly though, should I choose it to be. I was baptised, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as a result the Catholic church now counts me as a Catholic. I am not. Is it such a terrible thing for me to request I be struck from this list?

    If it's not a big deal as many here are saying it isn't, then what's the problem with this simple request? To me, the question here should be why are the Catholic church putting up so many obstacles in the paths of those who wish to defect?


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    #202
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    If someone wants to leave the Catholic church or convert to another denomination of Christianity then by all means they can do so. That does not mean that they were not baptised by the RCC at one point in time.
    Our Man in Havana has already shown this to be false.

    You need a letter confirming your leaving your previous religion to join Judaism, Catholicism wont give you that.


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    #203
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Since it's communion season... would you get your (future) children baptised and go through the childhood catholic rituals with them even if you aren't a practising catholic.

    I myself wouldn't like to have my child baptised, I don't personally like the hypocracy of not caring about religion and then putting that on to my child, the only thing is you may need to get them a place into the local school and so on

    Its a shame that your thread is confined to the Roman Catholic branch of the Christian Church.


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    #204
    MetalDog
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭MetalDog


    The whole idea of "original sin" is nonsense as is indoctrinating children without their consent. This country has to grow up bigtime and people need to stop indoctrinating kids with meaningless rituals, in which they often don't believe themselves, just to make granny and grandad happy.


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    #205
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 2,106 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    Marsden wrote: »
    Its not just about religion, your child will feel left out when its communion time and they dont get to join in.

    Oh, the horror of being left out of an empty ritual, no doubt it would scar them for life:rolleyes:


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    #206
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    JaxxYChicK wrote: »
    No, certainly I am not what a piece of paper says I am. That doesn't mean that the piece of paper should not be changed accordingly though, should I choose it to be.
    You were born and you were given a birth cert. and placed on the register of births. You were baptised and were also given a baptismal cert. and placed on the register of baptisms. You can't reverse your birth nor your baptism and as such your presence on both registers is perfectly valid.
    I was baptised, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as a result the Catholic church now counts me as a Catholic. I am not. Is it such a terrible thing for me to request I be struck from this list?
    Why would they strike you off? That would skew the statistics. It is a baptismal register of all those baptised. Not of all those who are practicing Catholics. To a Catholic, baptism is an irreversible process the same way that communion and confirmation are irreversible processes. They cannot make them reversible as that would go against the faith. You however are presumably not of this same faith and are at perfect liberty to identify yourself with any religion or lack thereof.
    If it's not a big deal as many here are saying it isn't, then what's the problem with this simple request? To me, the question here should be why are the Catholic church putting up so many obstacles in the paths of those who wish to defect?
    It's not a matter of removing yourself from a piece of paper. To a Catholic Priest or even lay person, even considering something as "undoing" a baptism would be an act of extreme evil.


    Blowfish wrote: »
    Our Man in Havana has already shown this to be false.

    You need a letter confirming your leaving your previous religion to join Judaism, Catholicism wont give you that.
    Why are you so focused on Judaism? If someone is non-religious they can claim to be anything and it will mean nothing to them.


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    #207
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Does point 5 from this summary of the Data Protection Act not cover getting yourself removed from any incorrect statistics that the church may hold on people?

    http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/rights/RightsPlainEnglish.htm&CatID=16&m=r
    5. Right to change or remove your details

    If you discover that a data controller has details about you that are not factually correct, you can ask them to change or, in some cases, remove these details.

    Similarly, if you feel that the organisation or person does not have a valid reason for holding your personal details or that they have taken these details in an unfair way, you can ask them to change or remove these details.

    In both cases, you can write to the organisation or person, explaining your concerns or outlining which details are incorrect. Within 40 days, the organisation must do as you ask or explain why they will not do so.


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    #208
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    robinph wrote: »
    Does point 5 from this summary of the Data Protection Act not cover getting yourself removed from any incorrect statistics that the church may hold on people?

    http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/rights/RightsPlainEnglish.htm&CatID=16&m=r
    But there is nothing incorrect about it.

    It is a baptismal register. If someone was baptised then their presence on said register is perfectly valid.


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    #209
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    But there is nothing incorrect about it.

    It is a baptismal register. If someone was baptised then their presence on said register is perfectly valid.

    Correct, but if they then make a claim that there are X million catholics in Ireland based on numbers taken from baptismal certs then they must be in breach of how they are allowed to use that information? I think it would also be possible to make a claim that the initial information was collected unfairly as the decision to be baptised was not your own. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but the people who did it did not have your permission at the time.

    Edit: Actually them using your information for purposes you do not agree to would be covered by point 8 on the list:
    8. Right to object

    A data controller may intend to use your details for official purposes, in the public interest or for their own interests. If you feel that doing so could cause you unnecessary damage or distress, you may ask the data controller not to use your personal details.

    This right does not apply if:

    you have already agreed that the data controller can use your details;
    a data controller needs your details under the terms of a contract to which you have agreed;
    election candidates or political parties need your details for electoral purposes; or
    a data controller needs your details for legal reasons.
    You can also object to use of your personal details for direct marketing purposes if these details are taken from the electoral register or from information made public by law, such as a shareholders' register. There is no charge for objecting.


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    #210
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    No. I Have two kids and they're not baptised. Irish catholic "rituals" appear nothing more than an excuse for excessive alcohol intake. I find this disturbing, especially when I see young children who have undergone rituals of baptisim, communion or confirmation ensconced in pubs watching on as their parents get drunk. My favorite is the one where the doting couple, so concerned about their newly baptised child's spiritual upbringing, hand them over to a grandparent to take home so they can get pissed. Ask most Irish catholics any meaningful theological question and they look at you a if you have two heads. The only reason most Irish are catholic is because they are born in it.


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    #211
    PK2008
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Biggins wrote: »
    No.
    Have four children and none of them have been subjected involuntary to that process.
    If they want to when they are old enough to decide as mature teens or adults, so be it.
    Until then, who am I to force any one individual religious indoctrination and process upon them.
    Presently some attend (and others shortly will) also "Educate Together" schools to in also to aid further freer thinking and openness.

    Great post Biggins

    Just one quick question, who was the celebrity you had it off with?


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