Things that cost €30 million

swampgas

later10 wrote: »

[ ... ]
I'm not the man to ask, I think I must have a heart of stone because this symbolism notion doesn't do anything for me. The working reality is that our states, more importantly, its peoples, are friends. That is how things are, and next week won't change it a damn.

I would advise you against a career in politics

Seriously though - maybe this isn't the thread or the forum for it - symbolism at national level is very important.

Say for example the senior bankers implicated in fraud were actually brought before the courts and tried - would that have symbolic value as far as most people were concerned?

Mad_Max

later10 wrote: »

Leaving aside the aspect that has already been dealt with, I presume your hypothesis relies on 100% positive exposure? And even then, I don't really buy into the notion that the tourists of the world are going to come here in their droves to congratulate us for not blowing up the Queen of England.

It's supposed to be taken for granted that we don't go around exploding little old ladies.

I don't believe they'll come because we don't blow up the queen but I do believe people who see images of her waltzing around the countryside may well consider it a place to visit.

I for one, am happy with this as a expenditure for the country. Sometimes you have to spend money to get money. This is one for me, even if there are no promises of increased tourist numbers.

If the €30 million is needed badly enough, we could protest about politician expenses, which if scrapped could save it. But it's easier to complain about spending money to cater for a royal.

astrofool

The €30m on Obama will more than pay itself back in the ringing endorsement it will give to the American multinationals who set up shop here, and contribute billions to the economy.

Even Lizzie's visit will probably pay itself back via other revenues.

later12

swampgas wrote: »

However would it not make more sense to calculate the cost per capita?

Yes, it would in one respect but what I was really getting at in that specific post wasn't the shared burden necessarily, but firstly the value of €1m (or €30m in this case) which, of which we tend to lose sight, quite understandably, in the current crisis.

The irony is that in less straitened times, I actually think this cost would have caused a minor uproar in itself.

Mad_Max wrote:

I don't believe they'll come because we don't blow up the queen but I do believe people who see images of her waltzing around the countryside may well consider it a place to visit.

I think waltzing around the countryside is a slightly inaccruate term since we're about one false alarm away from shipping her about in a lead container with a perspex window. This is a 5'3'' old lady surrounded by minders, the camera snappers will be doing well to get any sort of 'natural' shot of her at all, and there certainly won't be any crowd shots (no pun intended).

What are these pictures worth in monetary terms? Again, would we not be better taking out a few glossy spreads of Connemara in National Geographic or Der Spiegel?

Portraying this as a marketing exercise when (a) the Queen is a dubious crowd puller outside of the UK, (b) there is likely to be extensive coverage of protests and (c) there is a possibility of more unpalatable trouble sort of makes me want to track down who ever came up with it. I know a Nigerian oil prince who wants to share a guaranteed fortune with him if he'll just pass on his bank details.

astrofool wrote:

The €30m on Obama will more than pay itself back in the ringing endorsement it will give to the American multinationals who set up shop here

Really? You think so? Why?

dvpower

later10 wrote: »

Leaving aside the aspect that has already been dealt with, I presume your hypothesis relies on 100% positive exposure? And even then, I don't really buy into the notion that the tourists of the world are going to come here in their droves to congratulate us for not blowing up the Queen of England.

You mightn't buy into the notion that the visit will generate more tourism, but Tourism Ireland, the body tasked with promoting tourism here, do buy into it.

You asked for evidence, but the assesment of the experts in the area doesn't seem to be enough for you.

bamboozle

what a silly thread, do people not realise that these visits will generate exposure for this country as a tourist destination and it will encourage tourists to come visit, it was reported this morning there's been a drop in tourists from Uk from a high of about 4m to currently 2.5m people.

hopefully these visits plus the scrapping of airport taxes will be of benefit to tourist, we all know it's needed.

for what its worth, the Seanad costs about 30m a year to run, the last time it rejected a Dail bill was the Pawnbrokers bill back in the early '60's, so if you're looking to save 30m maybe the Seanad would be a good place to start?

monkeybutter

It's clearly good value for the £3.8 Billion loan they so generously gave us in our hour of need, plus whatever they pumped into the Euro Fund that we are drawing down on.

International relations are important, international relations with the UK are most important, well worth 30m or so for a once off like this. And this is a once off.

You can rest easy, Charles and Camilla are much cheaper

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2009/11/26/nl-royal-bill-1126.html

And the 30m is being spent locally, so there is benefit in it, even if a fair whack of it's going to an Garda Síochána.

astrofool

later10 wrote: »

Really? You think so? Why?

Because it sends out a positive message about the country if the leader of the USA visits. If MS, Intel, Google, Facebooke etc. open even one more division here as a result of being more confident in Ireland, the money will be paid back.

The other way you can look at it, is if we want all these companies here, contributing billions to the exchequer, we should probably put up their president for a few days when he wants to visit,.

gurramok

bamboozle wrote: »

what a silly thread, do people not realise that these visits will generate exposure for this country as a tourist destination and it will encourage tourists to come visit, it was reported this morning there's been a drop in tourists from Uk from a high of about 4m to currently 2.5m people.

hopefully these visits plus the scrapping of airport taxes will be of benefit to tourist, we all know it's needed.

Hold on here, why has the British tourist numbers fallen from 4m to 2.5m, did something negative happen here? You see were I am going with this? Nothing happened, British people are not coming here in the numbers like before due to Ireland being a high cost destination and in particular Dublin having daily anti-social problems.

On the visit itself, its a serious risky gamble by the govt to go ahead with it. So many security personnel to ensure it goes ahead without a hitch and yet the city is in lockdown, resentment is rising among Dubs about this visit asking is it really worth the hassle in the end.

Once this Royal visit is over, I'd like to know where will the average Brit find the money to spend here? Is there an expected employment boom in the UK or something on the immediate horizon that only the Irish govt know about?

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

Hold on here, why has the British tourist numbers fallen from 4m to 2.5m, did something negative happen here? You see were I am going with this? Nothing happened, British people are not coming here in the numbers like before due to Ireland being a high cost destination and in particular Dublin having daily anti-social problems.

On the visit itself, its a serious risky gamble by the govt to go ahead with it. So many security personnel to ensure it goes ahead without a hitch and yet the city is in lockdown, resentment is rising among Dubs about this visit asking is it really worth the hassle in the end.

Once this Royal visit is over, I'd like to know where will the average Brit find the money to spend here? Is there an expected employment boom in the UK or something on the immediate horizon that only the Irish govt know about?

no i dont see where you are going with this, my point was simple UK tourist numbers have dropped significantly, the exposure of the Queens visit will encourage more tourists as will the drop in Airports taxes. For starters i believe 1100 journalists have received official accreditation for the queens visit, i presume many of these are from overseas, so the payback has already started.

Do you believe the British are no longer going on holidays and this country trying to attract UK tourists is pointless?

PS - Anti Social problems are no worse than any other large city, look at Barcelona or Madrid - huge amount of tourists get their wallets nicked yet they still have large tourist numbers.

gurramok

bamboozle wrote: »

no i dont see where you are going with this, my point was simple UK tourist numbers have dropped significantly, the exposure of the Queens visit will encourage more tourists as will the drop in Airports taxes. For starters i believe 1100 journalists have received official accreditation for the queens visit, i presume many of these are from overseas, so the payback has already started.

Do you believe the British are no longer going on holidays and this country trying to attract UK tourists is pointless?

PS - Anti Social problems are no worse than any other large city, look at Barcelona or Madrid - huge amount of tourists get their wallets nicked yet they still have large tourist numbers.

Yes, that boat has long sailed. British tourists are not stupid, they know Ireland is too expensive for them. And yes, the correct image of anti-social Dublin with open drug dealing and junkies out of their heads around the city centre is a detrimental factor.

Ranging from 4m to 2.5m numbers per year, do you not think word has spread in the UK that Ireland is just too expensive a destination?

And how will this visit affect the exchange rate with Sterling which at the moment is at 87.2p, again where with the British tourist find the extra money to spend here? You never answered that question.

dvpower

bamboozle wrote: »

PS - Anti Social problems are no worse than any other large city, look at Barcelona or Madrid - huge amount of tourists get their wallets nicked yet they still have large tourist numbers.

I've not seen this being put forward as a reason for the drop in numbers of tourists from the UK.

There was a Tourism Ireland guy on the radio this morning attributing the drop to:
a) the economic downturn in the UK
b) negative coverage of Ireland in general due to our economic crisis
c) Ireland becoming uncompetitive

We can't do much about the downturn in the UK, we have been making some progress on our competitiveness and the visit is one way of mitigating some of the negative coverage we've been getting.

gurramok

dvpower wrote: »

I've not seen this being put forward as a reason for the drop in numbers of tourists from the UK.

There was a Tourism Ireland guy on the radio this morning attributing the drop to:
a) the economic downturn in the UK
b) negative coverage of Ireland in general due to our economic crisis
c) Ireland becoming uncompetitive

We can't do much about the downturn in the UK, we have been making some progress on our competitiveness and the visit is one way of mitigating some of the negative coverage we've been getting.

Thats not the view on the Dublin Mayor or the Dublin City Business Association.
http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/call-for-drug-addiction-centres-to-be-moved-53829.html
http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-lord-mayor-demands-new-anti-begging-laws-2010-09/

They said they were concerned about the six methadone treatment centres in the city centre, which cater for around 1,200 people, and the knock-on effects on businesses and tourism.

DCBID chief executive Richard Guiney said the proliferation of homelessness and begging in Dublin was ‘‘an enormous issue that is doing us no favours’’.

‘‘There are two types of vagrants on the streets: those who are in desperate need and those who aren’t. Our team of street ambassadors see people pitching up in the morning with their paper cups.

They have travelled into the city for this purpose," said Guiney.

‘‘I understand Dublin Tourism is also receiving feedback in its visitors’ surveys about this issue. Locals and tourists are being harassed at ATMs, bus stops and anywhere that people congregate outside."

So lets say Ireland gets all this super duper positive image after the visit, where will the British tourists get the money to visit here?

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, that boat has long sailed. British tourists are not stupid, they know Ireland is too expensive for them. And yes, the correct image of anti-social Dublin with open drug dealing and junkies out of their heads around the city centre is a detrimental factor.

Ranging from 4m to 2.5m numbers per year, do you not think word has spread in the UK that Ireland is just too expensive a destination?

And how will this visit affect the exchange rate with Sterling which at the moment is at 87.2p, again where with the British tourist find the extra money to spend here? You never answered that question.

i'm really not sure the point you are trying to make, are you saying that it is pointless that we try attract tourists from the UK? If this is the case we had 2.5 million UK tourists arrive here last season so your point is invalidated,
you obviously have an issue with the anti social elements of Dublin City, guess what its a capital city, these things happen in large cities & are having little if any impact on potential tourists decisions to travel here, you'd swear you were talking about crime black spots like Sao Paulo or Guatemala City,
The dog on the street is fully aware that Ireland is expensive and if it was cheaper more tourists would probably come, but guess what? tourists are still coming.

I'm not sure either the point you are trying to make re the GBP Euro FX rate, sure GBP has weakened agaisnt the Euro, this has not stopped UK tourists visiting countries within the Euro zone.

Ok the UK is in a recession but people are still going on holidays and people are still coming here and as its our nearest neighbour we need to attract more of them here, yes costs need to be cut here, yes the weakness of GBP relative to euro is an issue for some but these are not show stoppers and Tourism Ireland needs to be proactively doing its best to attract more tourists here rather than limply waving a white flag of surrender which is would appear is what you are suggesting.

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

Thats not the view on the Dublin Mayor or the Dublin City Business Association.
http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/call-for-drug-addiction-centres-to-be-moved-53829.html
http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-lord-mayor-demands-new-anti-begging-laws-2010-09/



So lets say Ireland gets all this super duper positive image after the visit, where will the British tourists get the money to visit here?

new anti begging laws were enacted on 2nd February this year in relation to the above.

gurramok

bamboozle wrote: »

i'm really not sure the point you are trying to make, are you saying that it is pointless that we try attract tourists from the UK? If this is the case we had 2.5 million UK tourists arrive here last season so your point is invalidated,
you obviously have an issue with the anti social elements of Dublin City, guess what its a capital city, these things happen in large cities & are having little if any impact on potential tourists decisions to travel here, you'd swear you were talking about crime black spots like Sao Paulo or Guatemala City,
The dog on the street is fully aware that Ireland is expensive and if it was cheaper more tourists would probably come, but guess what? tourists are still coming.

I'm not sure either the point you are trying to make re the GBP Euro FX rate, sure GBP has weakened agaisnt the Euro, this has not stopped UK tourists visiting countries within the Euro zone.

Ok the UK is in a recession but people are still going on holidays and people are still coming here and as its our nearest neighbour we need to attract more of them here, yes costs need to be cut here, yes the weakness of GBP relative to euro is an issue for some but these are not show stoppers and Tourism Ireland needs to be proactively doing its best to attract more tourists here rather than limply waving a white flag of surrender which is would appear is what you are suggesting.

My point is that the message that has been rolled out about this visit in that will attract hordes of visitors from the UK is a false one based on the fact that:
- Britain is in a recession, where will the money come for Britons to visit here?
- The British tourists are hampered by an exchange rate not in their favour - 87.2p
- Ireland is a high cost destination unlike Spain for example.
- Dublin itself(as the visit is largely concentrated here) has a serious anti-social problem which is affecting visitor numbers as highlighted in the link I provided and this view is supported by the Dublin City Business Association and the Mayor himself.

Bamboozle wrote:

new anti begging laws were enacted on 2nd February this year in relation to the above.

Yes, there were beggars there yesterday when I strolled around Dublin city centre. Fewer in number granted, they are still around.

Welease

bamboozle wrote: »

i'm really not sure the point you are trying to make, are you saying that it is pointless that we try attract tourists from the UK? If this is the case we had 2.5 million UK tourists arrive here last season so your point is invalidated,
you obviously have an issue with the anti social elements of Dublin City, guess what its a capital city, these things happen in large cities & are having little if any impact on potential tourists decisions to travel here, you'd swear you were talking about crime black spots like Sao Paulo or Guatemala City,
The dog on the street is fully aware that Ireland is expensive and if it was cheaper more tourists would probably come, but guess what? tourists are still coming.

I'm not sure either the point you are trying to make re the GBP Euro FX rate, sure GBP has weakened agaisnt the Euro, this has not stopped UK tourists visiting countries within the Euro zone.

Ok the UK is in a recession but people are still going on holidays and people are still coming here and as its our nearest neighbour we need to attract more of them here, yes costs need to be cut here, yes the weakness of GBP relative to euro is an issue for some but these are not show stoppers and Tourism Ireland needs to be proactively doing its best to attract more tourists here rather than limply waving a white flag of surrender which is would appear is what you are suggesting.

It should also be noted that hotel costs have fallen considerably in Dublin (and outside Dublin), and it now ranks as one of the cheapest top worldwide destinations in that respect.. A very good time to be getting that news out to our closest customers..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1020/breaking21.html
http://www.dublinovernight.com/blog/2011/04/cost-of-staying-in-dublin-hotels-continues-to-fall/
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfeygbaugbgb/rss2/

later12

bamboozle wrote: »

what a silly thread, do people not realise that these visits will generate exposure

Perhaps you should read the thread... yes we realise it generates exposure, but there are two points

(i) when was the last time you saw a country on the news where the Queen had been and thought, 'i must go there too'. Very dubious argument. When the Queen goes to Belgium to lay war wreaths, how many Brits follow her as a result?
(ii) you mention 'exposure', do you realise that the protests may be as likely to appear on front pages and headlines as the dear old ladies coming out to welcome HM? Why are you convinced, before the visit has even started, that the press coverage will be glowing?

gurramok wrote:

Yes, there were beggars there yesterday when I strolled around Dublin city centre. Fewer in number granted, they are still around.

Begging is not illegal, nor ought it be so. If anything the numbers appear to be rising.

later12

astrofool wrote: »

Because it sends out a positive message about the country if the leader of the USA visits. If MS, Intel, Google, Facebooke etc. open even one more division here as a result of being more confident in Ireland, the money will be paid back.

MS, Intel, Google and so on, are all private companies who work on the basis of profit, why would they be watching Obama's travel itinerary in Western Europe? It just doesn't make sense that this would cause them to set up shop or expand here. Why not actually do something more practical with the €30m and spend this money incentivising business to establish here with start-up grants instead?

RichardAnd

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, there were beggars there yesterday when I strolled around Dublin city centre. Fewer in number granted, they are still around.

There will always be beggars in cities, that has been a given since the dawn of civilization.

The anti-begging laws don't outlaw begging as such, they simply make "agressive" begging illegal and they were aimed at the romanians.

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

My point is that the message that has been rolled out about this visit in that will attract hordes of visitors from the UK is a false one based on the fact that:
- Britain is in a recession, where will the money come for Britons to visit here?
- The British tourists are hampered by an exchange rate not in their favour - 87.2p
- Ireland is a high cost destination unlike Spain for example.
- Dublin itself(as the visit is largely concentrated here) has a serious anti-social problem which is affecting visitor numbers as highlighted in the link I provided and this view is supported by the Dublin City Business Association and the Mayor himself.



Yes, there were beggars there yesterday when I strolled around Dublin city centre. Fewer in number granted, they are still around.

3 Questions,

Have British people stopped going on holidays?
Is begging unique to Dublin City?
Should the Irish tourism Industry cease to exist due to the factors you've mentioned above?

ps- Spain is also in the euro zone.

bamboozle

later10 wrote: »

Perhaps you should read the thread... yes we realise it generates exposure, but there are two points

(i) when was the last time you saw a country on the news where the Queen had been and thought, 'i must go there too'. Very dubious argument. When the Queen goes to Belgium to lay war wreaths, how many Brits follow her as a result?
(ii) you mention 'exposure', do you realise that the protests may be as likely to appear on front pages and headlines as the dear old ladies coming out to welcome HM? Why are you convinced, before the visit has even started, that the press coverage will be glowing?

Begging is not illegal, nor ought it be so. If anything the numbers appear to be rising.

Regarding your 2 points
i - i'm not a royal observer or British so i dont watch the queens visits to countries, however many British people do and may see enough in the coverage to visit that country.
II - you seem to be missing the point of your original question, in the OP you mentioned the 30m cost relating to the visits of the Queen and Obama, there are something like 80m people in America who claim to be Irish American, maybe just maybe some of these will see footage of their president drinking a pint of Guinness in Dublin and decide to visit Dublin and Ireland at some stage over the coming years.

Either way, you have your mind made up and seem uninterested in expanding a myopic view to these visits and that's your perogatitve, i disagree with your opinions.

gurramok

bamboozle wrote: »

3 Questions,

Have British people stopped going on holidays?
Is begging unique to Dublin City?
Should the Irish tourism Industry cease to exist due to the factors you've mentioned above?

ps- Spain is also in the euro zone.

1 - No. They are looking for value for money and Ireland does not present itself as value for money despite a supposedly reduction in hotel prices from previous highs. People will always want to holiday and in a downturn, every penny counts when deciding where to go.
2 - No. Its very aggressive though and yes there are beggars in Paris for example though I never saw any in Manchester or Birmingham recently. The junkie problem in my view is more of a serious issue in the city centre than the begging.
3 - No. The problems must be tackled first in order to attract tourists from all markets.

And the Eurozone country Spain has many advantages over us, obvious being the weather but most importantly Spain is cheaper for a holiday.

I'd still love to know where Britons will find the money to come here once this visit is over.

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

1 - No. They are looking for value for money and Ireland does not present itself as value for money despite a supposedly reduction in hotel prices from previous highs. People will always want to holiday and in a downturn, every penny counts when deciding where to go.
2 - No. Its very aggressive though and yes there are beggars in Paris for example though I never saw any in Manchester or Birmingham recently. The junkie problem in my view is more of a serious issue in the city centre than the begging.
3 - No. The problems must be tackled first in order to attract tourists from all markets.

And the Eurozone country Spain has many advantages over us, obvious being the weather but most importantly Spain is cheaper for a holiday.

I'd still love to know where Britons will find the money to come here once this visit is over.

Seriously, make your mind up, have British people stopped going on holidays or not, you are contradicting yourself above.

I've met British people in the last 12 months while on Safari, in France, Portugal and in Dublin, you're giving the impression its a nation of 60 million people who are too broke to leave the country which is not the case.

later12

bamboozle wrote: »

Regarding your 2 points
i - ....many British people do and may see enough in the coverage to visit that country.
II ....maybe just maybe some of these will see footage of their president drinking a pint of Guinness in Dublin and decide to visit Dublin and Ireland ....

These are the points. How can such obscure possibilities, without evidence, be used to justify an amount of money such as this on symbolism? Where is the logical basis for it? I would suggest it is the acceptance of the worthiness of this visit without asking any questions which is itself myopic.

I get the feeling that a large part of the reason why people feel that they need to accept this charge (which again relates only to the immediate security costs) is the desire to disassociate themselves from SF and (various) IRA mentalities.

As a country in a dire fiscal situation where people really are toiling to survive their taxes every week, it is not myopic to question substantial costs to the taxpayer which on the face of it, do not in themselves appear to be logical.

gurramok

bamboozle wrote: »

Seriously, make your mind up, have British people stopped going on holidays or not, you are contradicting yourself above.

I've met British people in the last 12 months while on Safari, in France, Portugal and in Dublin, you're giving the impression its a nation of 60 million people who are too broke to leave the country which is not the case.

2.5m still holidayed??

The numbers of Britons holidaying here is down. They are still coming, its their numbers that have fallen where the lack of disposable income is a significant factor. Coupled with the Irish factors as outlined, Ireland would not be in a favourable light for a choice of holiday.

later12

bamboozle wrote: »

Seriously, make your mind up, have British people stopped going on holidays or not, you are contradicting yourself above.

Rubbish, it is not a question that they have stopped holidaying or not, certainly British people would likely be holidaying less or on a smaller scale than perhaps 3 or 4 years ago. They do not operate as a bloc, and it is not unreasonable to suggest that the exchange rate probably has more of an influence on their travelling behavior than where the Queen chooses to go on her city breaks.

bamboozle

later10 wrote: »

These are the points. How can such obscure possibilities, without evidence, be used to justify an amount of money such as this on symbolism? Where is the logical basis for it? I would suggest it is the acceptance of the worthiness of this visit without asking any questions which is itself myopic.

I get the feeling that a large part of the reason why people feel that they need to accept this charge (which again relates only to the immediate security costs) is the desire to disassociate themselves from SF and (various) IRA mentalities.

As a country in a dire fiscal situation where people really are toiling to survive their taxes every week, it is not myopic to question substantial costs to the taxpayer which on the face of it, do not in themselves appear to be logical.

final point, do you expect people in Dublin Airport with counters and questionnaires for the next 12 months to determine how many tourists have travelled here on the back of the queens visit?

as i originally stated, if your concern is the potential waste of 30m look no further than the Seanad as this is the annual cost of running it.

professore

You do realise that many ordinary man-in-the-street continental Europeans and even a few Americans, when they think at all about Ireland, they think there is a civil war raging here with the IRA killing people left right and centre?

I have heard that on several occasions. A visit like this might change their minds and they might want to come here.

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

2.5m still holidayed??

The numbers of Britons holidaying here is down. They are still coming, its their numbers that have fallen where the lack of disposable income is a significant factor. Coupled with the Irish factors as outlined, Ireland would not be in a favourable light for a choice of holiday.

that's my point, Britons are still going on holiday, many still have money to spend, we still need to keep trying to attract them here.

As i've already said costs here need to be further addressed.