Gerry Adams to run for President ?

SoulandForm

Godge wrote: »

The geographical reality though has no effect on the political reality. Ask the Koreans.

No Korean would deny that there is just ONE Korean nation.

The same in Ireland; one nation, two states.

Manassas61

Charlie Rock wrote: »

See here's where the confusion arises; most Unionists call what Ulster?

Ulster. It's what we call the province.

Karl Stein

Manassas61 wrote: »

Ulster. It's what we call the province.

What do you mean when you say Ulster?

Feel free to use a blank map of Ireland and crayons to help me understand.

SoulandForm

While I dont believe that demographics necessarily equal an end to partition, with the Catholic attitude to education been generally better than the Protestant one in Northern Ireland, you would think that capital "U" Unionists would be giving the situation they find themselves in serious thought; its strange how Unionism can move so quickly between an Ostrich type attitude and Apocalypticism.

Lacerda

Why isn't anyone discussing the actual subject of this thread?
That is "Gerry Adams" for El Presidente

SoulandForm

Lacerda wrote: »

Why isn't anyone discussing the actual subject of this thread?
That is "Gerry Adams" for El Presidente

Because its a bit of an impossibility?

Threads dealing with Northern Ireland tend always to go all over the place anyway.

timthumbni

Lacerda wrote: »

Why isn't anyone discussing the actual subject of this thread?
That is "Gerry Adams" for El Presidente

Because at the moment old beardy adams is a bit of a liability to republicans, considering his less than glorious dealings/lack of action regarding his child rapist brother.

Normally the armchair Provo types on here are quick to shout off topic (unless of course it's them who are going off topic) It's probably best for them to side track anything about old Gerry at the moment.

As a Northern Ireland unionist it doesn't really matter much to me who the president of the republic is. Though if youse ever elect Gerry then good luck with that. That wee man you have at the minute seems ok and inoffensive. At least he doesn't seem to think that playing golf with loyalists is part of the job.

Happyman42

timthumbni wrote: »

As a Northern Ireland unionist it doesn't really matter much to me who the president of the republic is.

:D:D That's funny that is ^^.

SoulandForm

Richard wrote: »

That's one thing he said that isn't preposterous.

Die hard loyalists wouldn't be, but many middle-class unionists could change their mind if the conditions were right.

The potential instability caused by a transition to a UI could however, put many of them, and moderate nationalists off the idea of a UI.

Its not middle class Unionists that could be persuaded en mass just like the poor unfortunates who have to derive a sense of personal identity by singing the Sash and Billy Boys- its working class (actual working as opposed to lumpen drunks and thugs) unionists who have had to suffer so much from their "own side" whether those socially above or beneath them that could with the right wits be won over.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its not middle class Unionists that could be persuaded en mass just like the poor unfortunates who have to derive a sense of personal identity by singing the Sash and Billy Boys- its working class (actual working as opposed to lumpen drunks and thugs) unionists who have had to suffer so much from their "own side" whether those socially above or beneath them that could with the right wits be won over.

I am a working class unionist and you won't be winning me over

Manassas61

Charlie Rock wrote: »

What do you mean when you say Ulster?

Feel free to use a blank map of Ireland and crayons to help me understand.

Just Ulster. I can't put it any more clear than that.

SoulandForm

Manassas61 wrote: »

Just Ulster. I can't put it any more clear than that.

Well if you mean actual Ulster than yes- Ulster is sort of its own thing, but like Provance is its own thing but still part of France so is Ulster. The majority of Ulster are from Catholic backgrounds and vote for "nationalist" parties. I do think I have much more in common with people from Donegal than I do with people from Cork- but we are still all Irish.

Manassas61

SoulandForm wrote: »

Well if you mean actual Ulster than yes- Ulster is sort of its own thing, but like Provance is its own thing but still part of France so is Ulster. The majority of Ulster are from Catholic backgrounds and vote for "nationalist" parties. I do think I have much more in common with people from Donegal than I do with people from Cork- but we are still all Irish.

You can't beat Ulster for its countryside and beautiful fields and just the atmosphere around the country. A great rural place, particularly Antrim and Down. I have always thought of it different from the rest of the Island.

SoulandForm

Manassas61 wrote: »

You can't beat Ulster for its countryside and beautiful fields and just the atmosphere around the country. A great rural place, particularly Antrim and Down. I have always thought of it different from the rest of the Island.

But a large majority of Ulster people dont!

Ulster is incredibly beautiful and is the most beautiful province in Ireland in my opinion though. Ulster also has greater possibilities among her people- I do think that her people have a greater psychic energy than the rest of the Irish, its just terribly mischannelled into nonsense.

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

Ulster is incredibly beautiful and is the most beautiful province in Ireland in my opinion though. Ulster also has greater possibilities among her people- I do think that her people have a greater psychic energy than the rest of the Irish, its just terribly mischannelled into nonsense.

lol what?

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol what?

Psychological engery- the energy of the psyche.

Nothing to do with mystic meg.

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

Psychological engery- the energy of the psyche.

Nothing to do with mystic meg.

So you're saying the Northern Irish are more motivated?

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you're saying the Northern Irish are more motivated?

Look at the "fleg riots" or the Provos themselves- you cant say that there was not a lot of energy there. Im not saying its always channeled wisely but its there. I loathe Ulster's present but I adore its possibility.

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you're saying the Northern Irish are more motivated?

Try to sing some songs of glory,
Sing some songs of peace,
But in the end it's the same old story,
They're both so hard to reach.

People tell me they're sick and tired,
Of seeing this place run down,
Well I say: Take your blindfolds off, you hypocrites,
And help us to get off the ground.

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

Look at the "fleg riots" or the Provos themselves- you cant say that there was not a lot of energy there. Im not saying its always channeled wisely but its there. I loathe Ulster's present but I adore its possibility.

The same energy existed in the South during and leading up to the war of independence and civil war. Conflict motivates people, if Northern Ireland ever finds peace that energy will become like the rest of Ireland.

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The same energy existed in the South during and leading up to the war of independence and civil war. Conflict motivates people, if Northern Ireland ever finds peace that energy will become like the rest of Ireland.

No Irish Republicanism was born in the north, at one time northerners made Ulster an industrial power house, there are plenty of reasons for conflict in the south- the fact that nordies would get worked up about the "fleg" works against us but also works for us.

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

No Irish Republicanism was born in the north, at one time northerners made Ulster an industrial power house, there are plenty of reasons for conflict in the south- the fact that nordies would get worked up about the "fleg" works against us but also works for us.

Irish republicanism wasn't born in the North. Wolftone, the father of Irish republicanism was very much a Southerner as was his organisation.

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish republicanism wasn't born in the North. Wolftone, the father of Irish republicanism was very much a Southerner as was his organisation.

It didnt begin with him and yes it was born in the north. Im glad though you are happy to whitewash Peader O'Donnell and General Munroe from your history- but tell me how are things going in getting the gun controls set in place by the Treatyite repealed and a genuine Republic of working people installed going? How many southerners spat on Ireland's struggle for national liberation by voting for the Lisbon treaty?

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The same energy existed in the South during and leading up to the war of independence and civil war. Conflict motivates people, if Northern Ireland ever finds peace that energy will become like the rest of Ireland.

So you are saying national liberation or something in that direction will sort out the six counties? Thanks for that.

LordSutch

Gerry Adams (es Provisional IRA member) will hopefully never be the President of the Republic of Ireland.

Just thought I'd throw some subject matter into a debate about Adams, which is currently drifting way off course . . .

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

It didnt begin with him and yes it was born in the north.

It didn't begin with him but his was the first major movement and he is regarded as the father of Irish Republicanism.

Im glad though you are happy to whitewash Peader O'Donnell and General Munroe from your history-

The socialist Peader O'Donnell from Derry? I'm not sure who the General Munroe is and I'm not sure why these two are relevant but Wolftone definitely predates O'Donnell.

but tell me how are things going in getting the gun controls set in place by the Treatyite repealed and genuine Republic of working people installed going?

lol what?

How many southerners spat on Ireland's struggle for national liberation by voting for the Lisbon treaty?

Me for one. Ireland does not exist on it's own planet. We're part of a greater whole in Europe. We need to stop being so inward looking.

Tramps Like Us

The united Irishmen was founded in the north by protestants.... level of ignorance is astounding

Iwasfrozen

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

The united Irishmen was founded in the north by protestants.... level of ignorance is astounding

Wolftone was a Southerner. He was invited to Belfast by interested parties. The claim wasn't that the United Irishmen weren't Northern it was that Irish Republicanism was born in the North. Which it clearly wasn't.

Hannibal

LordSutch wrote: »

Gerry Adams (es Provisional IRA member) will hopefully never be the President of the Republic of Ireland.

Just thought I'd throw some subject matter into a debate about Adams, which is currently drifting way off course . . .

Have you evidence of that? none exists, no charges etc despite him inviting McDowell to arrest him if he had evidence of this. Adams has always said he's proud of his association with the IRA but was never a member so he can only be taken at his word. Members of our current government could also be called ex-OIRA members everytime people refer to them but this is of course not labelled at them

The "Republic of Ireland" is a description of the state and not the offical name of the state, he might or might not become "President of Ireland" that's upto the people to decide if Sinn Fein do decide to nominate Adams next time around.

timthumbni

Hannibal wrote: »

Have you evidence of that? none exists, no charges etc despite him inviting McDowell to arrest him if he had evidence of this. Adams has always said he's proud of his association with the IRA but was never a member so he can only be taken at his word.

Yeah because we all take adams at his word in Northern Ireland.

He's known up here as "Honest Gerry" Well amongst shinner bots anyway.

Crooked Jack

timthumbni wrote: »

Yeah because we all take adams at his word in Northern Ireland.

He's known up here as "Honest Gerry" Well amongst shinner bots anyway.

Ok, so, to hell with the courts, let's just go with what everybody "knows."
I heard Peter Robinson was in the UVF and that Enda Kenny was a founding member of Combat 18. They've never been convicted of this so it must be true. Im so glad I have free reign to accuse anyone of anything I want. There's no way this could possibly go wrong

junder

Hannibal wrote: »

Have you evidence of that? none exists, no charges etc despite him inviting McDowell to arrest him if he had evidence of this. Adams has always said he's proud of his association with the IRA but was never a member so he can only be taken at his word. Members of our current government could also be called ex-OIRA members everytime people refer to them but this is of course not labelled at them

The "Republic of Ireland" is a description of the state and not the offical name of the state, he might or might not become "President of Ireland" that's upto the people to decide if Sinn Fein do decide to nominate Adams next time around.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence, plenty of books and even ex-ira men confirming Adams membership of the IRA. Of course Adams should face trial over his alleged involvement in the order of execution of jean mcconville amoung others, but that will never happen because the powers that be won't destabilise the peace process. But if it makes you feel better we can carry on playing lets pretend

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Ok, so, to hell with the courts, let's just go with what everybody "knows."
I heard Peter Robinson was in the UVF and that Enda Kenny was a founding member of Combat 18. They've never been convicted of this so it must be true. Im so glad I have free reign to accuse anyone of anything I want. There's no way this could possibly go wrong

Oh come on don't be obtuse you and I both know whether he's guilty or not is relevant. He won't be arrested because it would put the peace process ack years. Justice and evidence doesn't come into it.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh come on don't be obtuse you and I both know whether he's guilty or not is relevant. He won't be arrested because it would put the peace process ack years. Justice and evidence doesn't come into it.

Other than somebody 'saying' he was in the IRA, where is the incontrovertible evidence in these books etc?

I don't know if he was or not, but I can see sense in somebody who wanted to develop a political way forward seeing it as important to be removed from the military end.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh come on don't be obtuse you and I both know whether he's guilty or not is relevant. He won't be arrested because it would put the peace process ack years. Justice and evidence doesn't come into it.

So courts for everybody else, "sure the dogs on the street know" for the people you don't like. Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse.
Personally, I dont care if he was in the IRA or not, although the notion that the cops or British government would hold back arresting republicans in order to protect the peace process is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormontgate
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local-news/i-ll-take-claudy-arrest-to-my-grave-brolly-1-2148584
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22625104
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/detectives-arrest-the-surgeon-in-connection-with-iras-probe-into-killing-of-robert-mccartney-29099954.html

Happyman42

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So courts for everybody else, "sure the dogs on the street know" for the people you don't like. Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse.
Personally, I dont care if he was in the IRA or not, although the notion that the cops or British government would hold back arresting republicans in order to protect the peace process is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormontgate
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local-news/i-ll-take-claudy-arrest-to-my-grave-brolly-1-2148584
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22625104
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/detectives-arrest-the-surgeon-in-connection-with-iras-probe-into-killing-of-robert-mccartney-29099954.html

Exactly, it may be politic now not to arrest, but if they could have pinned it on him back in the day, is there anyone seriously suggesting that they wouldn't have?

There was never any solid evidence.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So courts for everybody else, "sure the dogs on the street know" for the people you don't like. Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse.
Personally, I dont care if he was in the IRA or not, although the notion that the cops or British government would hold back arresting republicans in order to protect the peace process is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormontgate
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local-news/i-ll-take-claudy-arrest-to-my-grave-brolly-1-2148584
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22625104
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/detectives-arrest-the-surgeon-in-connection-with-iras-probe-into-killing-of-robert-mccartney-29099954.html

They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry

I wonder would we be allowed to say unproven stuff like that about other Dail deputies on these forums?

Tramps Like Us

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

What is this, star trek?

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Are you saying you have information that Gerry Adams was involved in a murder? perhaps you should take that to the cops. Dont want to get done for withholding information.

Scofflaw

Iwasfrozen, timthumbni, thank you both for your efforts in the direction of ensuring yet another NI thread winds up in a flame war. Your use of emotive terms undoubtedly contributes to emotive rather than factual discussion. Keep it up and you'll win holidays.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Manassas61

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wolftone was a Southerner. He was invited to Belfast by interested parties. The claim wasn't that the United Irishmen weren't Northern it was that Irish Republicanism was born in the North. Which it clearly wasn't.

People always seem to forget that. Wolfe Tone was not an Ulsterman.

Painted Pony

Happyman42 wrote: »

Other than somebody 'saying' he was in the IRA, where is the incontrovertible evidence in these books etc?

There isn’t any such evidence of course. But neither is there incontrovertible evidence (as would be established by a court of law) that there was collusion between the British and loyalists, or that they at times operated a shoot to kill policy or that they had a part in the Dublin / Monaghan bombings or many of the other allegations made against the British.

But regardless, I suspect you (and many others, including me) would maintain a high level of confidence, bordering on “almost certain” than some, or all of these allegations are true.

WE can only make an educated guess as to whether Adams was in the IRA or not (for those that really believe he wasn’t, a more pertinent question to ask would surely be “why not?”)

My guess is that he denies it, for the same reason that McGuinnness admits it. The whole Jean McConville business might be very troublesome if he were to admit being in the IRA at the time of her murder. Conversely McGuinness would have undermined the quest for truth by the bloody Sunday families if he went before Saville and denied being in the IRA.

But of course it doesn’t really matter one way or the other. Adams endorsed the IRA, which is as moral or not, depending on your view, as actually being involved with them.

junder

Painted Pony wrote: »

There isn’t any such evidence of course. But neither is there incontrovertible evidence (as would be established by a court of law) that there was collusion between the British and loyalists, or that they at times operated a shoot to kill policy or that they had a part in the Dublin / Monaghan bombings or many of the other allegations made against the British.

But regardless, I suspect you (and many others, including me) would maintain a high level of confidence, bordering on “almost certain” than some, or all of these allegations are true.

WE can only make an educated guess as to whether Adams was in the IRA or not (for those that really believe he wasn’t, a more pertinent question to ask would surely be “why not?”)

My guess is that he denies it, for the same reason that McGuinnness admits it. The whole Jean McConville business might be very troublesome if he were to admit being in the IRA at the time of her murder. Conversely McGuinness would have undermined the quest for truth by the bloody Sunday families if he went before Saville and denied being in the IRA.

But of course it doesn’t really matter one way or the other. Adams endorsed the IRA, which is as moral or not, depending on your view, as actually being involved with them.

They deny because to admit it would open them up to a whole range of civil court cases

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

I wonder would we be allowed to say unproven stuff like that about other Dail deputies on these forums?

Please don't misquote me. I wrote:

"They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum, Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

I called the IRA scum. Not Gerry. I don't know if he was involved in the IRA or not. No one does.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Are you saying you have information that Gerry Adams was involved in a murder? perhaps you should take that to the cops. Dont want to get done for withholding information.

Nope. I have none. And if you would care to look over my post I never claimed to either.

Iwasfrozen, timthumbni, thank you both for your efforts in the direction of ensuring yet another NI thread winds up in a flame war. Your use of emotive terms undoubtedly contributes to emotive rather than factual discussion. Keep it up and you'll win holidays.

We're talking about terrorists here. Cold hard calculated killers. Stop trying to appease the apologists and call them what they are.

Tramps Like Us

junder wrote: »

They deny because to admit it would open them up to a whole range of civil court cases

Hypothetically if anyone were to come out and say that they were members of an IRA or any of the other illegal organizations which endorsed the GFA they would be prosecuted and would serve two years in jail.

Someone like McGuinness is open about his membership (to a point) because he did time in jail for it.

Hannibal

junder wrote: »

Plenty of anecdotal evidence, plenty of books and even ex-ira men confirming Adams membership of the IRA. Of course Adams should face trial over his alleged involvement in the order of execution of jean mcconville amoung others, but that will never happen because the powers that be won't destabilise the peace process. But if it makes you feel better we can carry on playing lets pretend

ah yes people accept the "anecdotal" word of the likes of Brendan Hughes, Dolours Price and Sean O'Calllaghan as truth when it suits them and dismiss everything Adams says to the contrary because they want to believe he was in the IRA and are more and more irrated that they can't pin it on him. Incidently all three of these finger pointers have suffered with mental health issues over the course of a number of years in which they made the allegations.

If Adams was arrested and put on trial for McConville it would be a farce because there would be a book of evidence that would be empty apart from the word of people who only pointed the finger on the condition they are dead before their testimony is released.

On another issue where there is evidence that is not anecdotal, as you are a member of the British armed forces would you also support the idea that every British soldier involved in the murder of innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacre in the 1971 and 1972 be put on trial?

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Please don't misquote me. I wrote:

I didn't misquote you.

junder

Hannibal wrote: »

ah yes people accept the "anecdotal" word of the likes of Brendan Hughes, Dolours Price and Sean O'Calllaghan as truth when it suits them and dismiss everything Adams says to the contrary because they want to believe he was in the IRA and are more and more irrated that they can't pin it on him. Incidently all three of these finger pointers have suffered with mental health issues over the course of a number of years in which they made the allegations.

If Adams was arrested and put on trial for McConville it would be a farce because there would be a book of evidence that would be empty apart from the word of people who only pointed the finger on the condition they are dead before their testimony is released.

On another issue where there is evidence that is not anecdotal, as you are a member of the British armed forces would you also support the idea that every British soldier involved in the murder of innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacre in the 1971 and 1972 be put on trial?

That goes both ways since if you want the soldiers allegedly involved in those incidents put on trail then you would also have to support the likes of Adams and mcgunniess put on trail. Moreover if support the gfa you would also have to suppport any soldier convicted of murder being realeased early under the terms of the Good Friday agreement. And yes I am a soldier and I don't believe I am above the law nor should anybody else be, wether they are serving soldiers or possible future Irish presidents

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

That goes both ways since if you want the soldiers allegedly involved in those incidents put on trail then you would also have to support the likes of Adams and mcgunniess put on trail. Moreover if support the gfa you would also have to suppport any soldier convicted of murder being realeased early under the terms of the Good Friday agreement. And yes I am a soldier and I don't believe I am above the law nor should anybody else be, wether they are serving soldiers or possible future Irish presidents

The difference being that there is more than hearsay in the Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy cases.