Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

The Israeli

An agreemant with the west bank alone. An agreement that doesn't end the conflict is useless.

SamHarris

Dudess wrote: »

Including the children? The women (for whom you were so concerned recently)? The men who aren't members of Hamas?



And you're a christian? I've a strong suspicion Jesus Christ himself (a Palestinian) if he were around today, would be asking you to leave his club...

Em... Just saying Jesus was a Jew, Palestinians are Arabs, from the Arabian peninusla. They settled in that area after the Arab expansion during the 7th century. It displaced (amoungst other people) the Jewish population, that exodus continued as the crusaders and various Arab leaders vied for the region.

There seems to be alot of mis conceptions amoungst people that "The palestinians were always there" - this is not the case at all. Not that it really matters, once you have built a home in a place not having ancestral lines going back through antiquity proving your the right race to live there really means nothing ...

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

...and as I've said - long before Hamas arrived, there was another set of excuses. The fact is that there was a four year gap where Abbas could have been seen to have benefited from co-operation and Hamas suffered because of lack of it, and the only thing they received was more demands and more building on the ground.

We've seen the results in the West Bank, we've seen the back room private attitude that led to those results, so please, please, please stop trotting out this 'But Hamas....' nonsense. Theres no intention of withdrawal on the part of Israel until the maximum feasible amount of land has been built on and consolidated, because theres absolutely no meaningful penalty on them, in terms of sanctions or casualties, for doing so.

Although I agree with you nothing was gained from the 4 years of raprochment, I would argue that is a ridiculously small period of time for any real agreement to be made, or even the beginings of one. And whilst the idea of Hamas as a threat did not always exist and was in many ways a reaction to Israeli intransigence that does not mean its existence and its methods/ beliefs can be so easily dismissed.

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

Although I agree with you nothing was gained from the 4 years of raprochment, I would argue that is a ridiculously small period of time for any real agreement to be made, or even the beginings of one. And whilst the idea of Hamas as a threat did not always exist and was in many ways a reaction to Israeli intransigence that does not mean its existence and its methods/ beliefs can be so easily dismissed.

....I'd suggest looking over the attitude displayed by the Israeli side here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers

And of course, one might ask, if there was an intention towards a peace deal by Israel - a genuine one - why would the building continue? At the end of the day, and brutal as it sounds, houses built and roads linked have far more long term impact than the occassional casualties on either side.

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

....I'd suggest looking over the attitude displayed by the Israeli side here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers

And of course, one might ask, if there was an intention towards a peace deal by Israel - a genuine one - why would the building continue? At the end of the day, and brutal as it sounds, houses built and roads linked have far more long term impact than the occassional casualties on either side.

I didnt say the Israeli attitude was a good one, or in any way conduicive to peace, however that is often how negotians begin, and may continue in that vein for a decade or longer. I am merely pointing out that just because the Palestinians may be entirelly within their rights to be feel frustrated, betrayed and forgotten the attitude of their elected officials, the extremism so rife within the community and the real danger they do and will pose to others if in command of a militarised state cannot be ignored.

Wild_Dogger

The Israeli wrote: »

Hi.
I don't understand - crossing the only northern border Israel has and endangering their lifes and the lifes of Israeli citizens, can it be justified?
you think that crossing this border is right? You didn't say so, but it seems like it.

I thought Isreal were the first to break the international borders ?

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

Em... Just saying Jesus was a Jew, Palestinians are Arabs, from the Arabian peninusla. They settled in that area after the Arab expansion during the 7th century. It displaced (amoungst other people) the Jewish population, that exodus continued as the crusaders and various Arab leaders vied for the region. ...

emmmmm.....not really.....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

emmmmm.....not really.....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

Of course there is some genetic cross over, that does not mean Arabs were always "owning" their own countries in the levant. It is much like Egypt, where modern Egyptians do not share the same language, culture or religion as their ancient equivalents, that is not to say some of them did not inter marry.

The Palestinian people recognize themselves as Arabs, that people, culture and language moved into the region under the Rashidun Caliphate. Many tribes settled in the region following the conquest. Of course there will be genetic markers which indicate that they were not entirelly seperate for 5000 years. They didnt cross the Sahara or Atlantic, there was trade and cultural crossover for 1000's of years before the invasions...

If you read the article you linked, you will find the researchers found they are closely related, not identical/ the same ethnic group. Note that Syrians and the Lebanese are also Arab in origin. The Kurds, Assyrians and Persians were also displaced (to a greater or lesser extent) by the invasions. It is in many ways a mirror of what would later happen to the Native Americans and the Aboroiginals, though the Arab conquets were on a whole far less devastating to the original population.

Did you read that link at all or even reflect on what it actually means before posting it as some kind of rebuttle to my point?

Like I said that racial argument does not cut any mustard with me anyway, I dont agree that one group or another should live in poverty or not have rights because they are of a different genetic background. Just pointing out you are wrong.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dudess wrote: »

Yep, that was a ****ing sick thing to say. Mak, I know you have first-hand experience of being there and you acknowledge atrocities on both sides - and I am NOT anti Israeli people, and the situation IS complex, but there is nothing wrong with objecting to the way the Israeli state conducts itself. It's what any decent person would do, and people who have no problem with it are despicable.

Hey sorry D, I wasn't ignoring you but I was on my phone for most of the day yesterday and its a pain to quote & edit posts.

I've always been honest and open and have never refrained from telling the truth, I've posted about the IDF & its indecriminate shelling of south Lebanon and its deliberate targetting of UN personnel in other threads.

I'd never make any justification for a wrong doing, and everything I posted in this thread would be applicable to any soldier guarding any border or post anywhere else in the world.

People read that as me supporting the IDF, well tough. I'm not going to lie or make up stuff like the hysterics out of some here.

It was the same in a recent thread re. Bobby Sands and memories of 1981 - I was then labelled a republican and other sh*t.

Like I said, I won't engage in hysterics - there are enough people doing that here, in fact start any thread on Israel and they'll come flocking.

If I attempt to break things down too simplistic I'm accused of being condesending and talking down to people.

So there ya go, stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Predator_

The Jews terrorism knows no bounds.

User banned for this racist (Jews) remark.

wes

Predator_ wrote: »

The Jews terrorism knows no bounds.

Not all Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel. I would use the term Zionist terrorism, which is far more accurate.

Katkatim

dlofnep wrote: »

Ladies and gentleman, the character of a Zionist. Says it all really..

Have you heard of this movement?

http://www.hashomer-hatzair.org/pages/english.aspx

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

................... Just pointing out you are wrong.

In the contention that they are related? No. In the contention that they're not "invaders"? No. And pockets of the population are very closely related indeed.

One DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim concluded that genetic evidence coincides with historical accounts that at least part of the Arab Israeli and Palestinian population is mainly descended from local Christians and Jews "who had converted [to Islam] after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century A.D."[109][110][111] These Christian and Jewish converts are believed to be descended from a "core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times."[112] The study also discovered significant genetic mixing between these converts and incoming Arab tribes during the first millennium AD, as well as parallel genetic mixing of the Jewish population with the local peoples throughout the Jewish diaspora.[109]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies

Joonaspp

wes wrote: »

Not all Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel. I would use the term Zionist terrorism, which is far more accurate.

I blame the nation when the government is involved.

wes

Joonaspp wrote: »

I blame the nation when the government is involved.

Well, then you would blame Israeli's then, which I again would disagree as not all Israeli's would agree with there government, but to be fair, those who are Zionists, I would very much consider at fault.

Joonaspp

wes wrote: »

Well, then you would blame Israeli's then, which I again would disagree as not all Israeli's would agree with there government, but to be fair, those who are Zionists, I would very much consider at fault.

If the majority disagree with the government, shouldn't they do something about it?

wes

I taught the following article from time gave some interesting insight into this:

Behind the Israel Protest Turmoil: A Middle East Without a Peace Process

wes

Joonaspp wrote: »

If the majority disagree with the government, shouldn't they do something about it?

Yes, they should and I would say that there is significant support for Israeli government policies from those who support the ideology of Zionism. Zionists may very well be a majority in Israel as well, but still I don't think if fair to blame all Israeli's, when it would make more sense to blame Zionists, whose ideology is what drives forward Israeli government policy.

HavingCrack

Predator_ wrote: »

The Jews terrorism knows no bounds.

Ah yes, all those Irish Jews are somehow responsible for the actions of the Israeli government and army. :rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Predator_ wrote: »

The Jews terrorism knows no bounds.

You should see some of the sh*t I seen Christians (SLA/DFF) do in Lebanon.

The Israeli

I know that it's off topic and just a short part of the story, even from the Israeli point of view, but it's an official part and publicly recognized that I just found and wanted to share:

http://www.whathasisraeleverdoneforpeace.com/

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

I know that it's off topic and just a short part of the story, even from the Israeli point of view, but it's an official part and publicly recognized that I just found and wanted to share:

http://www.whathasisraeleverdoneforpeace.com/

What happened to

I don't won't to go into politics because we already discussed that
.......

As regards the pullout from gaza. 30,000 Troops were being used to guard around 8,000 settlers. It was seen as an expensive project using up resources that could be deployed to far better effect in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. Given Blairs assistance to Bush in Iraq seemingly being hinged on a new push for peace, and the US appearing to be about to have a client state in the region possibly weakening, Sharon and his advisers came up with the smart move of withdrawing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm

And of course, expansion in the West Bank etc notably accelerated after the withdrawal, which rather underlines the motivation behind it.

The true position of the Israeli government as regards the occupied territories and the Palestinians can be seen here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers

The Israeli

Heh, you caught me, but I still don't want long discussions or sword to sword battles over politics - it's very tiring for me :P. I'm not a politician.

I will comment on your expenses remark -

It's known that holding an army to gaurd the settelments in Gaza is expensive. 30000 soldiers is a very wild exaggerations, and I know more or less how soldiers were stationed there.

Don't forget that right now there are many soldiers stationed by the border so it's not that huge saving.
If you take into account expenses of the Solid Lead operation and the others to follow you will see that Israel doesn't save money on this.
If you take the huge cost of moving and compinsating the settelers for the loss of houses and businesses you will understand that this assumption is groundless.

The real reason was an attempt reduce the friction there, save lifes of both sides and to pave the road for peace at that border, which isn't really proving itself for now, but in the long run it will worth it.

Nodin, can I ask you a personal question: Do you protect the Palestinian side at 95% of the time to make their voice be heard, or you truly believe that they are right 95% of the time?

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Nodin, can I ask you a personal question: Do you protect the Palestinian side at 95% of the time to make their voice be heard, or you truly believe that they are right 95% of the time?

I'll come back to your other points tommorrow.

As regards the above, it's a case of colonisation of a people being wrong 99.999% of the time. And I leave the .0001% out only in the chance I haven't thought of everything.

The Israeli

Nodin wrote: »

As regards the above, it's a case of colonisation of a people being wrong 99.999% of the time. And I leave the .0001% out only in the chance I haven't thought of everything.

I agree that colonisation in general is wrong, but it's important to take into account what circumstances led to that colonisation (same of them are just some aren't), and how to retreat from that colonisation without leading to a worst situation than it was before.

Two are needed for tango, and you aren't equal in your standing in my opinion, because you almost always omit the facts that stand for Israel.

In the matter of the subject of the thread I can understand the Palestinians and slightly support their desire, but rushing through the borders can only deteriorate the situation (agree?) and shouldn't be encouraged by people that care about human lifes.

Marmara 2 event is coming near. I see we will have a lot to discuss. Right now I can say that it will bring no good to neither of the sides.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

I agree that colonisation in general is wrong, but it's important to take into account what circumstances led to that colonisation (same of them are just some aren't), and how to retreat from that colonisation without leading to a worst situation than it was before.

Two are needed for tango, and you aren't equal in your standing in my opinion, because you almost always omit the facts that stand for Israel.

.

Unfortunately the 'facts that stand for Israel' are always going to be undermined by the fact they're still building civillian colonies outside their own borders - thats not showing any notion of a retreat. It's an aggressive act which shows the intent underneath the rhetoric.

As to Gaza ......
http://www.inss.org.il/upload/(FILE)1289897263.pdf

Obviously its not just me that doesn't think that Ariel "bulldozer" Sharon turned hippy.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

How we can stand and watch such atrocities happening is beyond me

Disgusting scumbags.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Liberty Witty Looter wrote: »

How we can stand and watch such atrocities happening is beyond me

Disgusting scumbags.

Storming a border and breaking through its fence and getting shot is never an atrocity - its pure stupidity, but its what I've come to expect from these idiots.

Phill Ewinn

The Israeli wrote: »

I agree that colonisation in general is wrong, but it's important to take into account what circumstances led to that colonisation (same of them are just some aren't), and how to retreat from that colonisation without leading to a worst situation than it was before.

Two are needed for tango, and you aren't equal in your standing in my opinion, because you almost always omit the facts that stand for Israel.

In the matter of the subject of the thread I can understand the Palestinians and slightly support their desire, but rushing through the borders can only deteriorate the situation (agree?) and shouldn't be encouraged by people that care about human lifes.

Marmara 2 event is coming near. I see we will have a lot to discuss. Right now I can say that it will bring no good to neither of the sides.

Are you suggesting there is to be more murder, piracy and kidnap for those involved in the peacefull flotilla?

comeraghs

"peace flotilla" ..... deliberate provocation of a sovereign nation ... if they want to help the Palestinian people they would send aid through "legal channels" & support the removal of the nutjobs in Hamas who are the real perpetrators of crimes against the Palestinian people.

wes

comeraghs wrote: »

"peace flotilla" ..... deliberate provocation of a sovereign nation ... if they want to help the Palestinian people they would send aid through "legal channels"

Israel blocks all kind of stuff from going in, for example they blocked Pasta at one point. The blockade is incredibly petty on Israel part, and is an illegal act of collective punishment, and as such the people who are breaking it, are very much in the right.

comeraghs wrote: »

& support the removal of the nutjobs in Hamas who are the real perpetrators of crimes against the Palestinian people.

Considering it is Israel, that has put 1.5 million Palestinian under an illegal blockade, I would say there main problem, is the occupation. Also, long before Hamas existed the occupation was still going strong.

comeraghs

The option to send supplies to Gaza exists now without causing
risk to life. why not use it?

Hamas & their predecessors of whatever name don´t recognise the right for Isreal to exist.

From my experience of traveling in the middle-east, the vast majority of people, Palestinian & Israeli want to live in peace but unfortunatly the Palestinian "leadership" in Gaza would rather carry on a futile "war" than sit down, negotiate, compromise & build a lasting peace.

The extremist Jewish settlers are no better but afaik they haven´t threatened to wipe out the entire Musilm population.


I struggle to understand the people on here who take this Palestinians are white & Isreal is black viewpoint to a very complex situation. Of course the IDF will defend itself against attack ... who wouldn´t? obviously Palestinians are angry at how they are treated but do the anti-Isreal posters here really believe that Isreal wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians? treat them like sub-humans? SERIOUSLY? if they wanted to take the West Bank & Gaza! they could have & would have! 20% of the population of Isreal itself is Palestinian .. they are represented in the Knesset, in the national football team, Druze musilms serve in the army!

comments like that are fueled by ignorance & racism. the majority on both sides wants peace,

Phill Ewinn

How would a peacefull flotilla cause risk to life?

wes

comeraghs wrote: »

The option to send supplies to Gaza exists now without causing
risk to life. why not use it?

Considering that Israel randomly blocks goods, the option doesn't really exist.

comeraghs wrote: »

Hamas & their predecessors of whatever name don´t recognise the right for Isreal to exist.

No one recognises another countries right to exist, and it doesn't exists as a concept under International law. Countries recognise one another, and thats all.

BTW, the PLO recognised Israel years ago, and Israel still continued with there same carry on, of stealing Palestinian land.

comeraghs wrote: »

From my experience of traveling in the middle-east, the vast majority of people, Palestinian & Israeli want to live in peace but unfortunatly the Palestinian "leadership" in Gaza would rather carry on a futile "war" than sit down, negotiate, compromise & build a lasting peace.

You will find that Israels leadership are no better, and you can take a look at the Palestine papers, leaked to Al Jazeera, showing Fatah trying there best to offer compromises, and being shot down by the US and Israel at every step of the way.

Also, Israel hasn't stopped there constant aggression, with there continued colonial expansion in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Not to mention there nasty little siege, an illegal act of collective punishment against Gaza.

comeraghs wrote: »

The extremist Jewish settlers are no better but afaik they haven´t threatened to wipe out the entire Musilm population.

No, they just want rid of the Palestinians from there home land, which isn't any different than the extreme positions within Hamas, actually.

comeraghs wrote: »

I struggle to understand the people on here who take this Palestinians are white & Isreal is black viewpoint to a very complex situation.

The situation isn't really as complex as its made to be imho, and I doubt many think the either side completely black or white as you put it.

comeraghs wrote: »

Of course the IDF will defend itself against attack ... who wouldn´t?

Sure, and this also applies the other way around, when you know Israel constantly attacks the Palestinians and steals there land.

comeraghs wrote: »

obviously Palestinians are angry at how they are treated but do the anti-Isreal posters here really believe that Isreal wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians?

Considering what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is very similar to what was done to the Native American's, so its not a completley unfair view.

comeraghs wrote: »

treat them like sub-humans? SERIOUSLY?

Your denial here is rather troubling, as I think anyone who bans pasta from a certain group of people, or makes roads for the use of there own ethnic group, are treating the other group as sub human.

comeraghs wrote: »

if they wanted to take the West Bank & Gaza! they could have & would have! 20% of the population of Isreal itself is Palestinian .. they are represented in the Knesset, in the national football team, Druze musilms serve in the army!

So you have completely fogotten about all the settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the 2nd class status of Palestinians in Israel, and the miscengation squads? Sorry, but I haven't forgotten about those and many other things.

comeraghs wrote: »

comments like that are fueled by ignorance & racism.

No fueled by facts actually, and to claim otherwise is what I would call ignorant, and I would call support of Zionism racist.

CrackisWhack

comeraghs wrote: »

The option to send supplies to Gaza exists now without causing
risk to life. why not use it?

Hamas & their predecessors of whatever name don´t recognise the right for Isreal to exist.

From my experience of traveling in the middle-east, the vast majority of people, Palestinian & Israeli want to live in peace but unfortunatly the Palestinian "leadership" in Gaza would rather carry on a futile "war" than sit down, negotiate, compromise & build a lasting peace.

The extremist Jewish settlers are no better but afaik they haven´t threatened to wipe out the entire Musilm population.


I struggle to understand the people on here who take this Palestinians are white & Isreal is black viewpoint to a very complex situation. Of course the IDF will defend itself against attack ... who wouldn´t? obviously Palestinians are angry at how they are treated but do the anti-Isreal posters here really believe that Isreal wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians? treat them like sub-humans? SERIOUSLY? if they wanted to take the West Bank & Gaza! they could have & would have! 20% of the population of Isreal itself is Palestinian .. they are represented in the Knesset, in the national football team, Druze musilms serve in the army!

comments like that are fueled by ignorance & racism. the majority on both sides wants peace,

Absolute BS, obviously committing genocide in Palestine would have huge ramifications, so no they couldn't take the west bank & Gaza in an out & out war, the International community wouldn't allow it. So the Israeli's are doing it in a step by step, piece by piece fashion.

wes

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Absolute BS, obviously committing genocide in Palestine would have huge ramifications, so no they couldn't take the west bank & Gaza in an out & out war, the International community wouldn't allow it. So the Israeli's are doing it in a step by step, piece by piece fashion.

The following is imho an excellent example of what your talking about:

Israel admits it covertly canceled residency status of 140,000 Palestinians

The Israeli

Nodin wrote: »

Unfortunately the 'facts that stand for Israel' are always going to be undermined by the fact they're still building civillian colonies outside their own borders - thats not showing any notion of a retreat. It's an aggressive act which shows the intent underneath the rhetoric.

As to Gaza ......
http://www.inss.org.il/upload/(FILE)1289897263.pdf

Obviously its not just me that doesn't think that Ariel "bulldozer" Sharon turned hippy.

Ok, I understand better now what bothers you the most. The building in the territories.
I'll tell you what bothers me the most and most of the Israelis: their security.
We fear that even after giving the territories to the Palestinians there will be no peace as they will demand more. Hamas may demand Israeli withdrawal from cities like Haifa, Jaffa and other mixed cities. Hamas even refuses to recognize the existence of Israel.
We will only give up on territories if all the Palestinians will announce on the end of the conflict and the end of all demands after all the details will be concluded.
There is something you should understand: The Israelis will be willing to go very far to achieve that peace. They will give many territories, including lands which are being build upon right now. If not, the palestinians will be given evenly worth lands.
Why aren't we not doing it right away? There is a big mistrust between us and the Palestinians. When Abas made a statement a few days ago, that Israel stole their land in 48, and ignores the fact that the Arab nations together with the Palestinians inside the current Israel attacked the new born Jewish state wishing to end its existance, how does it influence on our mutual trust?!
We need a partner that wants to end the conflict, not a one that takes the peace process intermediately for achieving further goals in the future.

Building is not the main problem. At least not in my opinion.
If it depended on me, I would stop it, but I'm not the only citizen in the country, and I too think that there are greater obstacles than that because it is reversable, but lost security to the state is much less reversable.

When I'm talking about Hamas I'm talking about Hamas in the West bank that might rise their head, and other terror organizations.

---

About the flottila:

If on the ships there will be terrorists armed with knifes, axes, metal poles and pistols or worse, they will not be welcomed.
I really hope that the army will just sabotage the ship's propeller or something and tow it to the Turkish waters and leave it to the Turks to deal with it. If it's possible.

I wonder what aid they will be bringing now. Hope for them that something more than expired medicine and wheelchairs.

comeraghs

might be of interest to some!

http://www.anfearrua.com/news.asp?url=http://news.google.com/news/url||sa=t|fd=R|usg=AFQjCNHG-UCqe7leiedq2UFzwtTiOuM4zA|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/may/19/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-territories

The Israeli

comeraghs wrote: »

might be of interest to some!

http://www.anfearrua.com/news.asp?url=http://news.google.com/news/url||sa=t|fd=R|usg=AFQjCNHG-UCqe7leiedq2UFzwtTiOuM4zA|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/may/19/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-territories

thanks, I was reffering to that interesting quote (cynically) in my comment above:

""In November 1947, the general assembly made its recommendation and answered in the affirmative. Shortly thereafter, Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs to ensure a decisive Jewish majority in the future state of Israel, and Arab armies intervened. War and further expulsions ensued."

bending of the history at its best.

And immediately afterwords the article continues:

"Cleverly, Abbas has removed Palestinians from the stage of responsible actors. According to him, they played no role whatsoever – they were merely the victims of Israeli actions. Of course, the inconvenient truth is that Israel accepted the partition plan while the Palestinians and Arab states rejected it and, instead, launched a war against the nascent state of Israel. The Palestinian refugee problem – whose fate is central to Abbas's perception of justice – is a direct result of that war. "

Nodin

comeraghs wrote: »

SERIOUSLY? if they wanted to take the West Bank & Gaza! they could have & would have! 20% of the population of Isreal itself is Palestinian .. they are represented in the Knesset, in the national football team, Druze musilms serve in the army!

comments like that are fueled by ignorance & racism. the majority on both sides wants peace,

They occupy the West Bank. They haven't formally annexed the area, because then they'd be stuck with the Palestinians on it, the numbers of whom would threaten the "jewish majority". The reasons for withdrawal from Gaza are well covered in the link in post 373 and post 377.

comeraghs wrote: »

Druze musilms serve in the army!,

'Druze and Bedouin muslims serve in the Army.' The Bedouin are still treated like shite for their trouble.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/bedouin-to-submit-counter-report-to-un-panel-on-discrimination-1.192058
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/un-rights-panel-slams-israel-over-treatment-of-bedouin-1.8696

I'd suggest a bit of research on your part might reveal your idea of the treatment of Israeli palestinians as being similarily over rosy.

Nodin

comeraghs wrote: »

might be of interest to some!

http://www.anfearrua.com/news.asp?url=http://news.google.com/news/url||sa=t|fd=R|usg=AFQjCNHG-UCqe7leiedq2UFzwtTiOuM4zA|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/may/19/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-territories

Not really - it seems ill-informed. Abbas has already privately dropped demands for the right of return, for instance.

wes

The Israeli wrote: »

""In November 1947, the general assembly made its recommendation and answered in the affirmative. Shortly thereafter, Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs to ensure a decisive Jewish majority in the future state of Israel, and Arab armies intervened. War and further expulsions ensued."

bending of the history at its best.

It perfectly accurate actually. Illan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" give more detail:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

The simple fact of the matter is that Zionists had no right to the land in the first place, and even less right to drive out the people already living there. Its really sad that some people will still deny historical fact, to justify Zionist racism.

The Israeli

Why they didn't have the right?
Who says that Ahmadinidgad? you?

Name me the territories that were decided to be Israeli by the UN in 48 that didn't belong to them. Names..

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Ok,........... Hamas may demand ..........

The usual crap about the current Bogeyman. Seriously, if thats all you can come up with, theres little hope for you.

The Israeli wrote: »

We will only give up on territories if all the Palestinians will announce on the end of the conflict and the end of all demands after all the details will be concluded.
There is something you should understand: The Israelis will be willing to go very far to achieve that peace. They will give many territories, including lands which are being build upon right now. If not, the palestinians will be given evenly worth lands.
Why aren't we not doing it right away? There is a big mistrust between us and the Palestinians. When Abas made a statement a few days ago, that Israel stole their land in 48, and ignores the fact that the Arab nations together with the Palestinians inside the current Israel attacked the new born Jewish state wishing to end its existance, how does it influence on our mutual trust?!..........

And it's back to blaming 1948 and the Palestinians writing in the NYT for Israeli building in 2011.....'Sweet Jesus Murray, did you see the piece in the paper''fuck me yes...we've no choice now but to authorise another 1,000 homes'.

Again, from the top. The state of Israel is building settlements on occupied territory. It is filling those settlements with settlers who they know will be quite difficult and expensive to remove. They've no intention of stopping building until they reach whatever limit they deem sustainable. I've no idea what that is, when it would or could be reached, but its fairly clear thats whats being done.

The Israeli wrote: »

We need a partner that wants to end the conflict, not a one that takes the peace process intermediately for achieving further goals in the future.

So 'what if they make demands' turns now into 'they will make demands'. Whats that based on?

The Israeli wrote: »

Building is not the main problem. At least not in my opinion.
If it depended on me, I would stop it, but I'm not the only citizen in the country, and I too think that there are greater obstacles than that because it is reversable, but lost security to the state is much less reversable.

Its not the main problem in your opinion because you aren't the one being built on. Stuck between two Arab settlements and an Arab only road to get to your fields (whatever hasn't been seized) would concentrate your mind on the issue.

"security"?......if it was about security they wouldn't be putting apartments and semi-detatched civillian housing in the midst of Palestinian territory.

The Israeli wrote: »

When I'm talking about Hamas I'm talking about Hamas in the West bank that might rise their head, and other terror organizations.

So you're throwing in future bogeymen to cover all contingencies.

wes

The Israeli wrote: »

Why they didn't have the right?

No one has the right to steal someone elses land. This goes for everyone. No one has the right to drive out people from there homes due to there race, which again something Israel did.

The Israeli wrote: »

Who says that Ahmadinidgad? you?

Its a fairly general concept, accepted by almost everyone, except various groups of ultra nationalist, racists and religous extremists. You do not take things from others, and in the case of Israel where they did exactly that, which you know make them the aggressor in the conflict, but we should let reality get in the way of colonialism I guess.

**EDIT**
BTW, the land theft has not stopped, as evidence by the continued expansion of settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which is of course aggression that Israeli refuses to stop.

Also, the ethnic cleansing is ongoing:
Israel admits it covertly canceled residency status of 140,000 Palestinians

Nothing has changed, at all, the same crap is still going on.
**END EDIT**

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Why they didn't have the right?
Who says that Ahmadinidgad? you?

Name me the territories that were decided to be Israeli by the UN in 48 that didn't belong to them. Names..

Anything to get away from now, eh?

Manic Moran

Israel blocks all kind of stuff from going in, for example they blocked Pasta at one point

As the Italian Army discovered in WWII, pasta is a logistical nightmare and is best avoided.

The problem is that for the amount of food you get, there is a disproportionate use of water. No pasta = the water you have goes further.

NTM

The Israeli

Nodin-

You fail to understand the Arabic general set of mind.

Maybe you don't care if the terrorists will be in a spitting distance from the Israeli PERMANENT borders with Israel having very little to do because it will have to deal with a Palestinian STATE and not Authority.

Soicide bombers in buses, restorants, malls, bus stations.. Lonely terrorists with knifes and axes.
They all will be by the borders, with very little to do with them before they go on their missions. Right now Israel stops most of them before they manage to cary out their missions.
I see that this is peanuts for you, but this is life for us.
In those settelmets usually live people that have a much higher tolerance for absorbing terror attacks than the regular Israeli which is in anyway much more than you would agree to tolerate.

I wrote "may" and "will".. so what? Are we talking about myy English or about my prediction skills? Let's say that the average reader understand the meaning.

Maybe it's hard for you to believe but the Palestinians will be compinsated for every lost inch of the land if and when there will be an agreament. We are talking here about a few precents of the total land (just heard that on FOX knews from a government spokesman.

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

As the Italian Army discovered in WWII, pasta is a logistical nightmare and is best avoided.

The problem is that for the amount of food you get, there is a disproportionate use of water. No pasta = the water you have goes further.

Yes, that may well be true, but Israel blocked it due to security reasons........

wes

The Israeli wrote: »

You fail to understand the Arabic general set of mind.

So Arabs are one big hive mind............ Sorry, but that statement is pretty damn racist.

The rest of your post is just the same hysteria that Israel always comes out with, to justify ethnic cleansing and land theft. Its very simple, give Palestinians some of there land back (1967 borders and a proper state, and not the Bantustan nonsense Israel pretends is a state) and there can be peace. Now, there will be fanatics on both sides who will never give up, but over time, they will be fewer and fewer in number.