Gaelscoils

flahavaj

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The "self" is not the product of it's origins. It is a conscious and independent life force that can exist individually.

Not in this case I'm afraid.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

flahavaj wrote: »

Not in this case I'm afraid.

Why not?

Wibbs

flahavaj wrote: »

He hates where he came from, the society that produced him and everyone in it. I am defining that as self loathing. Its dripping from his every word. I'd say he's punching himself hard in the guts while he plans his next rant.:pac:

Nope. With this mind reading skill, you should hire yourself out as the new Yuri Geller or is that Yuuurí Ni Gellaher? You'd like to think I hate where I came from just because it doesn't agree with your blinkered received notions of self and attachment and belonging and Irish, but nope. I'm afraid I can't help you there. I might have some issues where you claim to come from but it's not necessarily where everyone else is from. The diff is I at least know the diff.

deise go deo wrote:

Wouldn't have thought you would hang around with Plato, him being a republican and all.

Feck off :P:P:D In fairness kudo. did I mention feck off?..

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

The research has shown that learning a second language is beneficial for cognitive development. They have tested people who are fully bilingual, they have tested people who are learning their second language, and consistently it has been shown that the grater someones ability to speak languages, the more positive the influence on their cognitive development has been.

I can quote any number of sources from several different areas, showing benefits in several different areas of education if you wish.

The point has been raised many times in these threads that a second language doesn't necessarily have to be Irish. A compromise could be Irish + a European language at primary level, and a languages of the students choosing at second level.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

The point has been raised many times in these threads that a second language doesn't necessarily have to be Irish. A compromise could be Irish + a European language at primary level, and a languages of the students choosing at second level.

This thread is about Gaelscoils, the point I was making is that language learning plays a part in their success.

English medium schools are a topic for another thread.

metrovelvet

deise go deo wrote: »

I wouldn't deny that teacher dedication and parental input(Where it occurs in above average fashion) makes a difference, but not the difference, there is a very large body of evidence from several different parts of the world that all support the conclusion that learning a second language is a factor in the success of this type of education.

The research has shown that learning a second language is beneficial for cognitive development. They have tested people who are fully bilingual, they have tested people who are learning their second language, and consistently it has been shown that the grater someones ability to speak languages, the more positive the influence on their cognitive development has been.

I can quote any number of sources from several different areas, showing benefits in several different areas of education if you wish.

What?

I grew up with a lot of bi lingual kids, I was bi lingual myself for a while, and really what you say here, does not at all ring true with my experiences. For example in my honours math class there were less bi linguals than in ordinary math, and SAT scores certainly do not necessarily reflect that bi linguals do better than English speakers.

BTW, Im very much pro bi lingualism, the younger the better, but I dont think it means you are going to have better cognitive abilities than someone who isnt.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

What?

I grew up with a lot of bi lingual kids, I was bi lingual myself for a while, and really what you say here, does not at all ring true with my experiences. For example in my honours math class there were less bi linguals than in ordinary math, and SAT scores certainly do not necessarily reflect that bi linguals do better than English speakers.

BTW, Im very much pro bi lingualism, the younger the better, but I dont think it means you are going to have better cognitive abilities than someone who isnt.

Do you want me to go get the source that shows that on SAT scores, bilinguals tend to out perform Monolinguals.

flahavaj

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why not?

*Sigh*

metrovelvet

deise go deo wrote: »

Do you want me to go get the source that shows that on SAT scores, bilinguals tend to out perform Monolinguals.

Yes please.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yes please.

data from the Admission Testing Program of the College Board show a definite positive correlation between Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) scores and the study of foreign languages. In one recent test group, for example, students who had taken no foreign language in high school achieved a mean score of 366 on the verbal portion of the SAT, and 409 on the math portion. Students who had taken only one year of a foreign language had slightly higher scores (378 and 416), whereas students with two years of foreign language showed more dramatic increases (417 and 463). Each additional year of language study brought a further rise in scores, with students who had studied a language for five years or more achieving an average of 504 on the verbal and 535 on the math portion of the exam.

Eric Digest

The review of existing research on the impact of second language education showed a set of
consistent findings.
There is a positive effect on the student’s intellectual potential. Gains in both verbal and nonverbal intelligence, improvements in divergent thinking as well as enhancement of memory and
listening skills are all found to be associated with second language instruction.
Student achievement is improved, as is witnessed by research that studies results on standardized
tests in core subject areas. The research also shows that second language education improves the student’s skills in their first language

Impact of Second language Education on Intellectual Development


Will that do?

metrovelvet

deise go deo wrote: »

Eric Digest



Impact of Second language Education on Intellectual Development


Will that do?

I have to challenge this. First of all, there is a difference between being bi- lingual and studying a foreign language. I had 7 years of French before taking the SAT, but I would not have called myself bi lingual. This study points to the study of another language, not the state of being bi lingual, otherwise Miami would have the highest test scores in the US. I also had two years of Latin. Secondly, in NY State, where I went to school, the curriculum insists on a minimum of 3 out of 4 years of taking a foreign language in high school. So.... if you didnt take a foreign language in high school it's because you didnt GO to high school, and that is why you got a 366 [which quite frankly you would have to be 6 years old to get].

Witchie

Absolutely no way would I have sent my kids to the local Gaelscoil. Its so nationalistic and full of the lowest element of my town. They wont need Irish anyway coz there will be no jobs here for them for the foreseeable future so would rather they concentrate on French.

I think its almost cruel to send your child to one, who the feck wants to speak a language that is no use to them, better to learn ewok at least there would be some comic value to that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

flahavaj wrote: »

*Sigh*

I seeee.... By lack of a debatebale responce, I assujme you accept my point and retract the self-hating bit as inaccurate. And if the reply features a rolleyeys or some such evasive tacttic, I will know for sure.

Freddie59

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, the only reason to teach children Irish is to keep it alive. Better to let Irish die and have our children spend an hour a day learning a useful language

I wouldn't agree. I loved Irish at school, but I am in two minds about Gaelscoileanna. I personally think that there is a little element of social climbing (especially during the boom years) amongst some parents. But I would not be in favour of leaving the language die. It was almost wiped out during the British occupation. But in mainstream schools it should be a choice - not compulsory. I watched our three children struggle with it throughout their school years - even though I was able to help them a bit.

The only thing i find peculiar (a little bit OT here) is that RTE 1 & 2 still carry Irish language programming, when there is a dedicated channel available for it.

robp

We need more. It would open peoples’ minds to bi-lingualism as a norm.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

I have to challenge this. First of all, there is a difference between being bi- lingual and studying a foreign language. I had 7 years of French before taking the SAT, but I would not have called myself bi lingual. This study points to the study of another language, not the state of being bi lingual, otherwise Miami would have the highest test scores in the US. I also had two years of Latin. Secondly, in NY State, where I went to school, the curriculum insists on a minimum of 3 out of 4 years of taking a foreign language in high school. So.... if you didnt take a foreign language in high school it's because you didnt GO to high school, and that is why you got a 366 [which quite frankly you would have to be 6 years old to get].

So your making the assumption that benefits that occur from studying a second language disappear when you become fluent in that second language.
And your assuming that the study I linked to was carried out in NY state, do you have any reason to make that assumption?

And finally it does not follow that Miami would have the highest test scores in the US, the benefits that is brought by learning a second language does not mean you will be head and shoulders above everyone else, regardless of any other factors. It means you will tend to out perform your peers who didn't study a second language.

• Learning another language can enhance knowledge of English structure and vocabulary
(Curtain & Dahlberg, 2004).
• A study of 13,200 third and fifth graders in Louisiana public schools revealed that, regardless
of race, gender, or academic level, children taking foreign language classes did better on the
English section of the Louisiana Basic Skills Test than those who did not. (Dumas 1999)
• Strong evidence shows that time spent on foreign language study strongly reinforces the core
subject areas of reading, English language literacy, social studies and math. Foreign language
learners consistently outperform control groups in core subject areas on standardized tests,
often significantly. (Armstrong & Rogers 1997; Saunders 1998; Masciantonio 1977; Rafferty
1986; Andrade 1989; Kretschmer & Kretschmer 1989)
• One study found students scored significantly higher in math and language arts after one
semester of foreign language study 90 minutes per week. (Armstrong 1997)
• Foreign language learners consistently outperform control groups in core subject areas on
standardized tests often significantly. (Armstrong & Rogers 1997, Saunders 1998,
Masciantonio 1977, Rafferty 1986, Andrade, Kretschmer & Kretschmer 1989)
• Students who started kindergarten in the first Kansas City foreign language magnet schools
in 1988 had surpassed national averages in all subjects by the time they reached fifth
grade.These foreign language students performed especially well in mathematics. (Eaton
1994)
• Foreign language students within an urban magnet program scored well above anticipated
national norms in both reading and mathematics and higher than the average of all magnet
2school participants, despite the fact that they represent a broad cross-section of the local
community. (Andrade 1989)
• Mastering the vocabulary of a second language enhances student comprehension and abilities
in reading, writing, mathematics and other subjects. (Saville-Troike 1984)
• Bilingualism fosters the development of verbal and spatial abilities. (Diaz 1983)
• Students learning a second language in elementary school surpassed those who were not in
English reading and language arts tests. (Mavrogenes 1979).
• Early second language study promotes achievement in English vocabulary and reading skills.
(Masciantonio 1977)
• Foreign language learners consistently score higher than their non-language-learning peers in
measures of English vocabulary, particularly when the language studied has Latin roots.
(Masciantonio 1977)

If you want to get pedantic I can dig up sources that deal with bilingualism separately and show that being bilingual confers advantages the same as learning a second language does, but that would seam fairly self evident to me.

A possible explanation of this neuro-cognitive benefit from second language instruction was implied when a research concluded that second language learning enhances listening and memory skills (Ratte, 1968), suggesting a link to improved attention span. The neuro-cognitive benefits of learning a second and third languages strongly imply an enhancement of the actual functioning intelligence of the student. Such findings were more recently underscored when it was found that fluent bilingualism contributes substantially to the cognitive growth of children (Latham, 1998).

Amhran Nua

It's funny to watch some posters here trying to avoid admitting to a visceral and unreasonable hatred for the Irish language while doing everything possible to put it down. I mean seriously, the church is on its last gasp, fianna fail got voted into oblivion, everyone had crappy teachers in school. This ain't the 1970s any more.

Irish is a feckin awesome language, where else can you call money silver and English people Saxons. Ancient roots with green shoots.

metrovelvet

deise go deo wrote: »

So your making the assumption that benefits that occur from studying a second language disappear when you become fluent in that second language.
And your assuming that the study I linked to was carried out in NY state, do you have any reason to make that assumption?

And finally it does not follow that Miami would have the highest test scores in the US, the benefits that is brought by learning a second language does not mean you will be head and shoulders above everyone else, regardless of any other factors. It means you will tend to out perform your peers who didn't study a second language.




If you want to get pedantic I can dig up sources that deal with bilingualism separately and show that being bilingual confers advantages the same as learning a second language does, but that would seam fairly self evident to me.

Im not making those assumptions at all. I dont know how you jumped to those conclusions.

Do they teach analytic reasoning in Irish school?

My point was if you did not take a foreign language in high school chances are you didnt go to high school, you were a drop out. Most high schools have a foreign language requirement. Someone who gets a 366 most likely can barely read. You get 200 points for filling in your name and the max you can get is 800 on English and 800 on math.

You are promoting Irish speaking schools right? So you are talking about fluency and bi lingualism. And then you start talking about the study of a foreign language in connection to cognitive abilities. Not the same thing at all.

Every school in Ireland, Irish or not, has a foreign language requirement anyway, so your studies don't do much to promote the choice of a regular school in Ireland over an Irish school.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

You are promoting Irish speaking schools right? So you are talking about fluency and bi lingualism. And then you start talking about the study of a foreign language in connection to cognitive abilities. Not the same thing at all.

Every school in Ireland, Irish or not, has a foreign language requirement anyway, so your studies don't do much to promote the choice of a regular school in Ireland over an Irish school.

Good, they are not supposed to.;)

A child is not bilingual when they go to a Gaelscoil. They learn a second language to fluency there. Studys that show the benefit of learning a second language are thus quite relevant.

I have also given a source that shows that being fully bilingual, something that a child will achieve in a Gaelscoil but not in an English medium school, is also beneficial to cognitive development.

Glenster

Irish schools produce social misfits.

metrovelvet

It reminds me of Jews in NYC who send their kids to Hebrew school.

deise go deo

Glenster wrote: »

Irish schools produce social misfits.

Great contribution there, heres my counter argument, your wrong.

Wibbs

His wrong what?

metrovelvet

I think people who dont live in the Gaeltacht should get an extra 15% automatic on their leaving cert because residents of the G areas are at an unfair advantage.

Panrich

metrovelvet wrote: »

It reminds me of Jews in NYC who send their kids to Hebrew school.

A more apt analogy would be Jews in Jerusalem sending their kids to Hebrew school. Can you find any evidence that there is dissatisfaction among Jews who don't send their kids to Jewish schools?

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

His wrong what?

The single statement he made is wrong. What else could I have been referring to?

Pherekydes

Panrich wrote: »

A more apt analogy would be Jews in Jerusalem sending their kids to Hebrew school. Can you find any evidence that there is dissatisfaction among Jews who don't send their kids to Jewish schools?

The Americans would be up in arms that Israelis are educating their kids through Hebrew.

The Finns are at it too. And the Swedes. The Norwegians. God, they're all at it, educating their Goddamned kids in their own languages. Bomb them all back to the stoneage.

Y'all know the real reason the Americans hate the French so much: they speak their own language ALL THE TIME.

metrovelvet

Panrich wrote: »

A more apt analogy would be Jews in Jerusalem sending their kids to Hebrew school. Can you find any evidence that there is dissatisfaction among Jews who don't send their kids to Jewish schools?

No I have no idea about the Jews in Isreal. It just smacks to me of connecting a language with religion and political identity, and sucks all the joy out of language.

Just my outsider view of it. I wont be sending my son to Irish school as there would be no point. I wouldnt be able to even read the instructions on his homework.

Panrich

metrovelvet wrote: »

No I have no idea about the Jews in Isreal. It just smacks to me of connecting a language with religion and political identity, and sucks all the joy out of language.

Just my outsider view of it. I wont be sending my son to Irish school as there would be no point. I wouldnt be able to even read the instructions on his homework.

Gaelscoilleanna are not for everyone. I think that we can all agree on that.

Pherekydes

metrovelvet wrote: »

No I have no idea about the Jews in Isreal. It just smacks to me of connecting a language with religion and political identity, and sucks all the joy out of language.

But you're the one connecting the religion to the language. English speaking and Irish speaking catholic schools have a catholic ethos that must be respected by all who attend, but there is no discrimination practised against non catholics. It is the same with protestant schools. They have their own ethos, but accept all denominations.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

No I have no idea about the Jews in Isreal. It just smacks to me of connecting a language with religion and political identity, and sucks all the joy out of language.

Just my outsider view of it. I wont be sending my son to Irish school as there would be no point. I wouldnt be able to even read the instructions on his homework.

How does it smack of connecting a language with religion? Gaelscoileanna are often secular schools, while the local national school would almost certainly be controlled by the church.

As for political identity, its not political, its just identity.

metrovelvet

Pherekydes wrote: »

But you're the one connecting the religion to the language. English speaking and Irish speaking catholic schools have a catholic ethos that must be respected by all who attend, but there is no discrimination practised against non catholics. It is the same with protestant schools. They have their own ethos, but accept all denominations.

Yeah I connect the revivalism and the creation of the Irish state and the language with the theocracy and the Christian brothers brainwashing and national identity ...ugh...

Pherekydes

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yeah I connect the revivalism and the creation of the Irish state and the language with the theocracy and the Christian brothers brainwashing and national identity ...ugh...

National identity? And what did you do every morning before class?

Again, it is you who are doing the connecting. You need to open your mind and educate yourself about Gaelscoileanna before commenting. You come across as very prejudiced.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yeah I connect the revivalism and the creation of the Irish state and the language with the theocracy and the Christian brothers brainwashing and national identity ...ugh...

Do you know that the language revival movement was started almost entirely by protestants?
The catholic church played a large role in marginalizing the language before 1900. The revival movement for the language was not even recognized by the church until around 1900 because of the role protestants were playing in it.

paky

i went to a gaelscoil. it had a very nationalist outlook and most teachers ecouraged patriotism and promoted republicanism :eek:

alot of the guys i went to school with joined republican parties after lol

metrovelvet

Pherekydes wrote: »

National identity? And what did you do every morning before class?

Again, it is you who are doing the connecting. You need to open your mind and educate yourself about Gaelscoileanna before commenting. You come across as very prejudiced.

Why do I need to do that? Because you want to convert me?

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why do I need to do that? Because you want to convert me?

Surely it is a basic necessity that you actually know what it is your talking about before you discuss it?:rolleyes:

metrovelvet

deise go deo wrote: »

Surely it is a basic necessity that you actually know what it is your talking about before you discuss it?:rolleyes:

I dont know. You dont seem to think so.

deise go deo

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont know. You dont seem to think so.

Don't I? What ever makes you think that?

Pherekydes

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why do I need to do that? Because you want to convert me?

I was just curious. That is all. Do you (Americans) take the Oath of Allegiance before class each morning? Sing the Anthem? If the answer is yes, is it for a sense of national identity? As I say, just curious.

Any schools I've been associated with don't do anything similar, so your charge of brainwashing associated with ANY Irish schools is unfounded and should be explicitly withdrawn.

That is all.

P.S. I've never been involved with the Christian Brothers either.

metrovelvet

Pherekydes wrote: »

I was just curious. That is all. Do you (Americans) take the Oath of Allegiance before class each morning? Sing the Anthem? If the answer is yes, is it for a sense of national identity? As I say, just curious.

Any schools I've been associated with don't do anything similar, so your charge of brainwashing associated with ANY Irish schools is unfounded and should be explicitly withdrawn.

That is all.

P.S. I've never been involved with the Christian Brothers either.

It really depends. If you go to public school, at least for primary, you do say the pledge of allegiance. In private schools you dont unless they have a policy about it. I went to a public primary and we had to say it, facing the flag. My mother went in and complained as my parents were not citizens I shouldn't be being brainwashed [oh god how embarrassing was that for me.]

I do wonder what they do in places like Miami where the language seems to be more Spanish than English and if they say the pledge in Spanish and if school is taught in Spanish, or if they are still officially hanging onto English.

Then I went to a private Jesuit school and we had to say a few prayers every morning [in English, not Latin] but no pledge of allegiance.

Krusader

metrovelvet wrote: »

Then I went to a private Jesuit school and we had to say a few prayers every morning [in English, not Latin] but no pledge of allegiance.

that's worse, i reckon

cbyrd

My 2 eldest girls go to Gealscoil.. If there was a school in Ireland that taught ~French German Spanish i'd have sent them to it but it's not an option in this country to learn a language at primary level to a fluent level. Kids have a much better chance at learning another language if they already have more than one, the language centre of the brain is more developed than with just one language.

My eldest recently had her interview for secondary school and it was the first time i'd heard her hold a conversation in Irish. It completely blew me away... i was so proud Not for a job in later years but for the love of the language and a chance to learn other languages i'd have no hesitation in sending her if i had a do over. She'll now go on to learn German/French.

It was a lot of effort for me and my husband over the years to help with homework, but one of the things i love is when we're in a supermarket or somewhere she see's someone who needs a slagging... she does it in irish :pac: She gets a great kick out of chatting in irish to her sister who's in 2nd class knowing i don't understand and they have a giggle about it.. i hope it's harmless:rolleyes:
I don't see any harm in keeping our own language alive and well, all other European countries have their mother tongue and still speak English, it's a personal choice but it should still be a choice

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It's funny to watch some posters here trying to avoid admitting to a visceral and unreasonable hatred for the Irish language while doing everything possible to put it down. I mean seriously, the church is on its last gasp, fianna fail got voted into oblivion, everyone had crappy teachers in school. This ain't the 1970s any more.

Irish is a feckin awesome language, where else can you call money silver and English people Saxons. Ancient roots with green shoots.

I believe the French use the word argent for both money and silver. In German, the word for money, geld, is very derived from gold (in German and English).

There is a difference between "hate" and "indifference" regarding the language. I don't think anyone in this thread has stated the later when meaning the former (open to correction, if you can find someone, and DO NOT say Wibbs!)

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I believe the French use the word argent for both money and silver. In German, the word for money, geld, is very derived from gold (in German and English).

There is a difference between "hate" and "indifference" regarding the language. I don't think anyone in this thread has stated the later when meaning the former (open to correction, if you can find someone, and DO NOT say Wibbs!)

Wibbs:P

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Do you know that the language revival movement was started almost entirely by protestants?
The catholic church played a large role in marginalizing the language before 1900. The revival movement for the language was not even recognized by the church until around 1900 because of the role protestants were playing in it.

In all fairness, the Catholic church run school system did plenty to support the language post 1900. You could make similar points about the handful of protestants who supported early nationalist movements as well. But they were eventually driven away due to sectarianism, and the promotion of the Irish language was an virtually exclusively Catholic endevour for most of the 20th century.

So whatever about religion, I don't think it's a stretch say there is a huge overlap between the Irish language and Irish nationalism, especially the more militant variety. Almost all of the regular posters on Irish language threads in on boards.ie happen to be fairly hardcore nationalists as well. They are certainly entitled to their political views. But I wouldn't want my kids being taught by such people.

Krusader

MysticalRain wrote: »

Almost all of the regular posters on Irish language threads in on boards.ie happen to be fairly hardcore nationalists as well. They are certainly entitled to their political views.

Like who, can you name them???

byhookorbycrook

Mysticalrain,you cannot compare your "hardcore" posters on boards to teachers in Gaelscoileanna.I find that insulting in the extreme.

We have worked long and hard to make sure our school promotes our national identity,through our language and culture. We DO NOT, nor do any other Gaelscoileanna that I am aware of promote republicism.

I don't see how using our native language, playing our traditional music and sports can be a bad thing.We are 21st century in our outlook,we take what is best from our traditions and merge it into a curriculum that equips our pupils for the world of today-and tomorrow.

Krusader

Indeed, since when did Irish speaker = hardcore republican

The prejudice of the anti-Irish brigade is baffling, can they not see that the vast majority of people who speak Irish do so for the love of the language and not some ulterior motive

Sefirah

I know quite a number of parents who send their kids to Gaelscoileanna so they won't be 'stuck with foreign kids'- sad, but true