Salary ranges in IT

Dboy85

I don't understand why any self respecting educated person would sell themselves for 400 bucks a week. Job security is held as a weapon by employers to keep their arses in luxuries while your on shop keepers wages trying to hold a family together. I'd prefer to take the risk and start up to compete.
Act like a monkey and all you'll get is peanuts.

We hear stories of how Ireland is on the technology forefront and cant fill all these I.T positions and have to outsource jobs but yet offer honour degree graduates 25k...Gets my goat any time I hear it.

I'm on the ground, still in college, and I'm refusing work there is that much to do. Maybe I still have the Celtic Tiger attitude but imho its too low after devoting 4 years of your life to train in something to be taken advantage of.

/rageQuit

Sparks

There is an alternative viewpoint...

desperately going from job to job really is a bad idea in our industry. It can look appalling on the CV and thanks to Jason Calacanis’ tweet-started shouting match a few months back, it’s the hot-button topic of the month in some sectors. And even skipping the points that there are often valid reasons for jumping from role to role on a near-annual basis, there’s the fact that it’s just not very good for your personal life either (and dammit, I like having a personal life). So I wanted the next role to be long-term, and rather than just go for the first random job that I could do that paid enough, I thought I’d try a more focussed search for “the” role instead, to see how it’d play out.

So here were the criteria I came up with.

• The role should be for a large, stable company. Well, obviously. But it was more than just because startups are so volatile, it was because in all the SMEs and startups I’ve been in so far, there’s an inversely proportional relationship between the size of the company and the panic level in the company when absolutely anything goes wrong. Regardless of the true significance of the problem, pretty much all the SMEs I’ve been in have been guilty of assigning tasks according to the volume of the shouting from the clients at one point or another; or of getting into some serious bikeshed design discussions. The theory was, a large and stable company won’t have quite such a rapid panic response – it simply couldn’t if it had enough people in it. Panic responses generally need a startup-style environment with one or two people in charge, without that, panic can’t really take hold.

...

• It should be a job for the next 5-8 years, not the next year or two. After a few years of having companies fall out from under me, or become places that were toxic to stay in, I’m sick of instability. I’m craving a role where knowing where I’ll be in a year is not an act of divination. I want to work in a place where market pressure doesn’t turn everyone into foaming-at-the-mouth release junkies, or the-world-is-ending paniced firefighters, but where a sensible timetable survives at least the first brush with reality (even if it doesn’t survive intact and whole).

...

Incidentally, on topic:

• The salary should be in an acceptable range. I’m not greedy by nature, unless we’re talking about cake. As far as money goes, I’m normally of the opinion that I want to pay my bills, have health insurance and a pension, buy an occasional toy, and have some savings for a rainy day. That doesn’t actually take as much as you’d imagine. However, in our industry, salary is also a communications channel, and in the business world, it’s a statement of how your work environment will treat you. So I want mine back up where it would have been had I not taken a kicking from the Revenue Commissioners for working in a college startup (smart economy, eh? How about not levying contract researchers for pensions they can’t benefit from while they try to start SMEs you can tax?). Besides, I was about to get married, and a family isn’t far behind that, and while I’m not greedy by nature, I also like the idea of my kids getting to go to college and having a decent life.

Liam Byrne

Dboy85 wrote: »

I don't understand why any self respecting educated person would sell themselves for 400 bucks a week.

Well somebody's doing it, because I got an email back from a previously-potential client claiming that having looked at IT options he reckoned my rates were "80% higher" :rolleyes:

I know he's either bluffing or getting someone from college who has no bills or mortgage to work for €50 or so a day, but it does show the opinion that many people have of the value of trained professionals.

€100 a day every day will get you €2,000 a month, if you can be fully working every day on paid projects - that's bearable as long as overheads are low.

€200 a day would cover you for overheads, days that are less productive, etc, but then you get statements like the above....it won't translate into €4,000 a month, but it might work out at around €3,000 if you're lucky.....still only €36,000 a year, but definitely an OK wage in the current climate.

So what's a fair rate for contract work ? And what can we do to ensure that people realise that there's talent, experience and time involved in achieving what they want ?

srsly78

e40/hour is worth getting out of bed for, just about. That's if you work from home ofc, otherwise e60/hour or more! :pac:

Dboy85

srsly78 wrote: »

e40/hour is worth getting out of bed for, just about. That's if you work from home ofc, otherwise e60/hour or more! :pac:

Thief, any wonder I get work :pac:

On a serious note the social welfare is practically 30k a year, for a family, when it adds up! This should be the bar to clear at the very least. Take all the work you can get your hands on but sell yourself ffs, try specialise, don't get stuck doing stuff that joe bloggs can do. You'll find it easier to secure juicy contracts.

MysticalRain

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well somebody's doing it, because I got an email back from a previously-potential client claiming that having looked at IT options he reckoned my rates were "80% higher" :rolleyes:

I know he's either bluffing or getting someone from college who has no bills or mortgage to work for €50 or so a day, but it does show the opinion that many people have of the value of trained professionals.

€100 a day every day will get you €2,000 a month, if you can be fully working every day on paid projects - that's bearable as long as overheads are low.

€200 a day would cover you for overheads, days that are less productive, etc, but then you get statements like the above....it won't translate into €4,000 a month, but it might work out at around €3,000 if you're lucky.....still only €36,000 a year, but definitely an OK wage in the current climate.

So what's a fair rate for contract work ? And what can we do to ensure that people realise that there's talent, experience and time involved in achieving what they want ?

Don't forget outsourcing is a factor as well. The company I work for can hire an Indian with 10 years experience for the equivalent of an Irish grad fresh out of college. It's a rare occurrence that we would hire an Irish developer for anything these days.

Liam Byrne

MysticalRain wrote: »

Don't forget outsourcing is a factor as well. The company I work for can hire an Indian with 10 years experience for the equivalent of an Irish grad fresh out of college. It's a rare occurrence that we would hire an Irish developer for anything these days.

Well then I hope no-one in India can supply what your company is selling, because if so we may as well all pack up and go on the dole.

It's strange how so many companies with this attitude would then go on to scream "Buy Irish!" so that we'd support them.

Dboy85

MysticalRain wrote: »

Don't forget outsourcing is a factor as well. The company I work for can hire an Indian with 10 years experience for the equivalent of an Irish grad fresh out of college. It's a rare occurrence that we would hire an Irish developer for anything these days.

This is the problem, this really gets my goat. Its blatant disregard for the Irish economy. Irish clients pay good money to make their company more efficient to draw in more revenue and the money is spent outside the country. I hope I'm never in the position where I'm so hard done by where I hire an Indian guy over Irish talent. It disgusts me tbh

Companies that outsource should be taxed to the boll0x and rightly so

MysticalRain

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well then I hope no-one in India can supply what your company is selling, because if so we may as well all pack up and go on the dole.

It's strange how so many companies with this attitude would then go on to scream "Buy Irish!" so that we'd support them.

I don't like it one bit either. But that's capitalism for you. Of course by the same logic, most of us wouldn't be able to affort an iPhone if it was manufactured in a Western country and not China. If people want cheap services and goods, they end up paying for it one way or another.

MysticalRain

Dboy85 wrote: »

Companies that outsource should be taxed to the boll0x and rightly so

I guess what it boils down to socialism in the form of protectionism Vs capitalism and free markets. TBH, I don't see a return to the 1970's where the jobs of higher cost western workers are protected against cheaper workers in foreign countries.

Sparks

TBH though, outsourcing rarely works very well. Having multiple dev sites in different countries is one thing - but outsourcing rarely gets you quality work back. I know I've spent more than a few hours fixing supposedly production-quality code from an outsourcing effort that was horribly, horribly broken; and the business model for outsourcing fundamentally won't allow the outsourcees to produce quality code.

MysticalRain

Sparks wrote: »

TBH though, outsourcing rarely works very well. Having multiple dev sites in different countries is one thing - but outsourcing rarely gets you quality work back. I know I've spent more than a few hours fixing supposedly production-quality code from an outsourcing effort that was horribly, horribly broken; and the business model for outsourcing fundamentally won't allow the outsourcees to produce quality code.

I've seen plenty of disasters as well. But the approach I've seen companies take to avoid that is to experiment with several different outsourcing providers until they find one they can actually trust to produce quality code*, and then stick with them for everything. That and good communication between both sides.

* I wouldn't say it's the best quality code I've ever seen. But it is in the "good enough" category.

Dboy85

This just got depressing...

"Nope, 25k final offer, don't care what the dole rates are. Take the job or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar gets it instead"

/stuffyourjobupyourwh0le

srsly78

Outsourcing is fooking great! I was getting paid above hourly rates to supervise offshore teams Not so much fun checking and rewriting their shoddy work tho.

Another story: offshore Indian developer had to come to London to work for few weeks in bank. He found out what his London "team-mates" were being paid, freaked out and went on strike :P

shamrock2004

MysticalRain wrote: »

Don't forget outsourcing is a factor as well. The company I work for can hire an Indian with 10 years experience for the equivalent of an Irish grad fresh out of college. It's a rare occurrence that we would hire an Irish developer for anything these days.

I'm glad this was mentioned. I speak from my own experience. In 2 previous companies I worked in, I had to deal with work that was outsourced from India and on both occasions, I can say that the quality of work was unequivocally shi*e. You definitely get what you pay for. Sooner or later I hope companies realise this because you cannot get away with this in I.T.

shamrock2004

Dboy85 wrote: »

This just got depressing...

"Nope, 25k final offer, don't care what the dole rates are. Take the job or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar gets it instead"

/stuffyourjobupyourwh0le

Simple answer to this. Just look elsewhere Any company that has such an attitude isn't worth working for anyway in my opinion.

srsly78

Graduate salary really doesn't matter, I would have gladly worked for free to get experience when younger. My first paying job had £15,000 salary (1998). They say it's easier to find a job when you already have one too

MysticalRain

shamrock2004 wrote: »

I'm glad this was mentioned. I speak from my own experience. In 2 previous companies I worked in, I had to deal with work that was outsourced from India and on both occasions, I can say that the quality of work was unequivocally shi*e. You definitely get what you pay for. Sooner or later I hope companies realise this because you cannot get away with this in I.T.

I think people tend to over egg the pudding a little when it comes to outsourcing horror stories. I've worked for several companies that did make it work. Plus I've seen plenty of dodgy code written by Irish developers too.

fergalr

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well then I hope no-one in India can supply what your company is selling, because if so we may as well all pack up and go on the dole.

It's strange how so many companies with this attitude would then go on to scream "Buy Irish!" so that we'd support them.

Dboy85 wrote: »

This is the problem, this really gets my goat. Its blatant disregard for the Irish economy. Irish clients pay good money to make their company more efficient to draw in more revenue and the money is spent outside the country. I hope I'm never in the position where I'm so hard done by where I hire an Indian guy over Irish talent. It disgusts me tbh

No, its not, and not they shouldn't. Like, argh, read some economics.


If Irish businesses can get their coding done for much cheaper in India, then they should do so.


If Indians happen to be able to produce X cheaper, then, in general, we should let them produce it, and we should work on something else that they can't produce cheaper - this is more economically efficient overall.


This is only 'in general' - obviously, if the foreign team can cut corners by using child labour, we probably don't want to support it - but, in general, if they can do the work cheaper, then the trade is a net win for both economies.


We should be keeping jobs in Ireland, by educating ourselves, and being able to offer more value than other destinations. Not by some form of misguided protectionism - which isn't going to work anyway, considering the amount of multinational companies that employ developers here.


Incidentally, there are probably coders in the US making a similar argument about the IBMs and Microsofts and AOL and Google and eBay etc (which are genuinely american companies) that have 'outsourced' their operations to Ireland.


So we should climb up the value chain, and get better at producing stuff thats hard to produce elsewhere, and not talk shíte about 'hurting the economy'.


All that said, from what I've seen, I don't think people need to be too worried about outsourcing coming along and 'stealing' the jobs, just yet - there are a lot of frictional costs associated with outsourcing that aren't going to be overcome any time soon.

Further, it still seems to me that our education system/culture/industry/whatever-produces-developers here is still producing better developers than are typically available in the outsourcing market.

But we should compete by offering better value, not by being Irish, and making half-baked comments about 'hurting the economy'.

Dboy85

Stop talking nonsense. Not too recently we were branded as non patriotic by spending our money in the u.k by the Irish government and in a misguided way blaming us for the downturn in the figures. By your reasoning giving away our jobs to "cheaper" countries in effect your giving away the 20-30k that would of been spent in this economy.

I see your argument with the multi nationals and they themselves are outsourced but to take advantage of our tax system not its citizens. What is the point in basing our smart economy around multi nationals if they're not going to provide jobs for us?

Maybe you should read some economics pal

Sparks

Dboy85 wrote: »

Maybe you should read some economics pal

And maybe we should bring the civility level of the thread up a few notches before we actually have to, you know, "mod the forum" or some such uncouth thing...

toby08

fergalr wrote: »

No, its not, and not they shouldn't. Like, argh, read some economics.


If Irish businesses can get their coding done for much cheaper in India, then they should do so.


If Indians happen to be able to produce X cheaper, then, in general, we should let them produce it, and we should work on something else that they can't produce cheaper - this is more economically efficient overall.


This is only 'in general' - obviously, if the foreign team can cut corners by using child labour, we probably don't want to support it - but, in general, if they can do the work cheaper, then the trade is a net win for both economies.


We should be keeping jobs in Ireland, by educating ourselves, and being able to offer more value than other destinations. Not by some form of misguided protectionism - which isn't going to work anyway, considering the amount of multinational companies that employ developers here.


Incidentally, there are probably coders in the US making a similar argument about the IBMs and Microsofts and AOL and Google and eBay etc (which are genuinely american companies) that have 'outsourced' their operations to Ireland.


So we should climb up the value chain, and get better at producing stuff thats hard to produce elsewhere, and not talk shíte about 'hurting the economy'.


All that said, from what I've seen, I don't think people need to be too worried about outsourcing coming along and 'stealing' the jobs, just yet - there are a lot of frictional costs associated with outsourcing that aren't going to be overcome any time soon.

Further, it still seems to me that our education system/culture/industry/whatever-produces-developers here is still producing better developers than are typically available in the outsourcing market.

But we should compete by offering better value, not by being Irish, and making half-baked comments about 'hurting the economy'.

my point as well....
in my last company due to an ilness we needed to get development work done............we ended up outsourceing to india the cost was in truth helpful 32% cheaper but the main factor in hiring was that we could not get a local company to do a once off job .has anybody else come across this attitude.we actually had 52 hours downtime trying to get an irish or even british company to do the job.Having said all that they did in fact do a good job.

fergalr

Dboy85 wrote: »

Stop talking nonsense. Not too recently we were branded as non patriotic by spending our money in the u.k by the Irish government and in a misguided way blaming us for the downturn in the figures. By your reasoning giving away our jobs to "cheaper" countries in effect your giving away the 20-30k that would of been spent in this economy.

I see your argument with the multi nationals and they themselves are outsourced but to take advantage of our tax system not its citizens. What is the point in basing our smart economy around multi nationals if they're not going to provide jobs for us?

Maybe you should read some economics pal

I'm really just putting forward a very standard argument for the merits of trade over protectionism.


The idea is that if the Indians can make it cheaper, then its a good idea to let them make it, and we should make something else.
Irish businesses that hire Indian coders are not being 'unpatriotic' - they are simply increasing the efficiency of the Irish economy, and leaving Irish coders free to doing something else - something we do more efficiently.


This might be locally bad for a small group of Irish coders, in the short term, but its generally good for the economy overall.

You were the one who framed the argument in macroeconomic terms, saying outsourcing was "blatant disregard for the Irish economy."



Obviously, things are never quite as simple as a single economic argument - sometimes there might be benefits to protectionism, to smooth a transition, or for long term strategic value, or whatever - but in general, there's merit to the argument.


Like, another example might help explain things.

Imagine I have an Irish car manufacturing company.
Now, we aren't very good at making cars - we have a high cost base, and there isn't a lot of heavy industry expertise around - but we make 'em anyway.

Lets say we can produce a car identical to a VW Golf, for three times the price the German manufacturers can.

You are in the market for a car, and I say you should buy one of ours - because its Irish.
Are you going to do it?

It might look like a good idea, at some levels - you'll be supporting local jobs, and all that - but the idea is that fundamentally its a very inefficient thing to do.

If the Germans can make the same car for 1/3rd the price, we should just buy it off them, and we should make something else that we have an advantage (or comparative advantage) in.

If we continue to buy the Irish cars, then the 2/3rd price premium we pay is essentially wasted money.
And also we are not producing something that we are better at than other countries, so we are losing out there too.


Its harder to see, because code isn't this physical good, but the same thing applies to coders.

If India can outcompete Irish coders on price, at, say, simple CRUD coding, then we should be happy for Irish businesses to use them.
The indians are being more efficient about providing the service, leading to more efficiency overall - we should move up the value chain, and produce something they can't.


Edit:
I just want to make clear, here, that I'm speaking generally, and somewhat metaphorically, when I refer to 'producing something the indians cant' - obviously, while a lot of outsourcing to india involves less advanced software work, there are lots of indian coders out there producing top end stuff, too. I'm really just making a general argument for specialisation and trade, because I found some of the earlier posts a little xenophobic, and 'stealing our jobs'-like.

MysticalRain

Dboy85 wrote: »

Stop talking nonsense. Not too recently we were branded as non patriotic by spending our money in the u.k by the Irish government and in a misguided way blaming us for the downturn in the figures. By your reasoning giving away our jobs to "cheaper" countries in effect your giving away the 20-30k that would of been spent in this economy.

I see your argument with the multi nationals and they themselves are outsourced but to take advantage of our tax system not its citizens. What is the point in basing our smart economy around multi nationals if they're not going to provide jobs for us?

Maybe you should read some economics pal

I wouldn't pay much heed to what anybody in the government tells us these days. The government regularly outsources contracts to foreign companies. That even includes contracts for creating websites and campaign literature to encourage us to "buy Irish". Most government politicians and beaurocrats have little deep understanding of terms like the "smart economy" and "cloud computing" other than some vague notion that they create jobs and fit easily into a soundbite, or press release.

Basing most of our high tech economy around multi-nationals (i.e. stealing jobs from Americans) isn't a very smart long term strategy. What we should really be doing is focusing on creating more indigenous companies that are less likely to up and leave at the drop of a hat (like what Israel is doing at the moment). Otherwise we run the risk of our smart economy dissappearing like our manufacturing industry did by 2001.

I think you will find that all is fair in love, war, and captalism. Companies will do whatever it takes to improve the bottom line, and they don't owe you anything.

Dboy85

By most of the accounts on here, outsourcing isn't as efficient as its made out to be. Time and money wasted trying to find a cheaper solution to Pat next door in most cases leads to a costly mistake in fixing the code returned.
I can agree that when outsourcing is done properly it can be a very profitable practice for a company here but being as low on the ladder as I am I think its wrong.

We can also argue that there is nothing we can do in the technology sector that other countries, such as India, can't do better! By your logic its a waste of time educating ourselves so we can be under cut by a lesser economy. This is entirely my own personal opinion and I'll probably always feel that when hiring I like to see personally who I work with and will pay more for that relationship than an email address in the far east.

Its the painful truth of the matter that I'm starting to believe I should have gotten into something more physical such as networking. Just to point out too sparks I'm attacking the post not the poster all is well.

fergalr

Dboy85 wrote: »

By most of the accounts on here, outsourcing isn't as efficient as its made out to be. Time and money wasted trying to find a cheaper solution to Pat next door in most cases leads to a costly mistake in fixing the code returned.
I can agree that when outsourcing is done properly it can be a very profitable practice for a company here but being as low on the ladder as I am I think its wrong.

I agree that there are often hidden costs that often make it not worth while.
I don't agree that its 'wrong', though.

Dboy85 wrote: »

We can also argue that there is nothing we can do in the technology sector that other countries, such as India, can't do better! By your logic its a waste of time educating ourselves so we can be under cut by a lesser economy.

Actually, I think we need to educate ourselves more, so that we can add value by doing better and harder things.

Its like, when unskilled labour is moved overseas, you try and educate to semi-skilled, and when overseas gets good at semi-skilled, you try move up to skilled labour, and so on.

I think we probably need more education, and higher standards of it, so we can move up to doing even more valuable work, that can't be got overseas yet - and so on.

This on-going process of moving up the value chain, to increased specialisation, and higher quality, seems to be the way things are going.

Dboy85 wrote: »

This is entirely my own personal opinion and I'll probably always feel that when hiring I like to see personally who I work with and will pay more for that relationship than an email address in the far east.

Its the painful truth of the matter that I'm starting to believe I should have gotten into something more physical such as networking. Just to point out too sparks I'm attacking the post not the poster all is well.

Sorry - this is partly my fault too - I was unconstructive when I said 'read some economics' in that way - my bad!

Dboy85

Lets stop flirting and just hire me :pac:

fergalr

Dboy85 wrote: »

Lets stop flirting and just hire me :pac:

I'm not going to be hiring anyone - currently doing a PhD - but theres lots of tech jobs out there, and loads of startups and seed funding.

Dboy85

Well hello Dr! I just started up recently anyhow. Quiet happy being a small fish for the time being. It just gets my goat seeing people sell themselves short and accepting it as the norm.
I'm probably over valuing myself :rolleyes:

croo

Ed Yourdon wrote a couple of interesting books that touched on this topic, of out sourcing, back in the early 90s. I haven't read them since then but from memory, the "Decline and Fall of the American Programmer" speculated that the coding aspect of development would, like manufacturing, be out sourced and hence lead to the "fall of the amercian programmer" in the title - an argument that echos the fears of Dboy85.

But in the mid 90s Yourdan's second book "Rise & Resurrection of the American Programmer" revisited the topic and he decided (again just from memory so I might be off the mark a little) that he was wrong in the first book and that the American programmer had not declined but evolved and become more innovative, creating new markets & new ways of developing that enabled it to stay on top - an argument that echos fergalr's point.